Another hot rod

[blue72s]

Most importantly, long lead times and planning had allowed Karmann ample production flexibility to manufacture three un-numbered shells for the project. She expected the Karmann invoice presently as the shells had been delivered by lorry a fortnight ago. She re-checked the internal paperwork in the file to confirm that a regular production 911S chassis number from the current production sequence had been designated for each fresh Karmann shell.

Fact or fiction?

[Flunder]

Fact or fiction?

"You have to remember that the factory in the late 60's early 70's was a totally different company to that of today and the race dep't worked out of , basically, sheds. The 73 RSR (and to some extent late 72 2.5) were the 1st factory race cars offered to a standard spec formula.

Before this, and especially the TR and ST's were built to spec from a large list of options and the factory would ask which type of competition the car was to be used in. Different specs and homologated parts would be fitted depending upon type of race and group, or rally etc.

This can range from a basic 'no option' competition S with narrow body and standard 2.2 S motor with lwt carpet / trim delete etc - thru rally cars - right up to full Grp 4 circuit cars. Then on top of this there were more options. A narrow bodied 911S with LWT shell, trim and protection delete, lwt carpet and race seats etc which is still an ST but just without Grp 4 parts.

You also have to remember that the term ST is a relatively new one. In period the cars were 911S for competition or sports use.

Remember, the factory teams never raced a car on circuit, only in rally. There were quite a few works cars ( rally) and they usually used karmann shells with S chassis No.

Factory built cars is a different story. The works team were interested in prototype racing or rally. Grp 4 and below was left to private teams and privateers. More than one ex works cars were sold by the factory. Kremer had at least one, maybe more, as did Strahle, Moritz and others.

There were far more cars built by teams and privateers than by the factory - look at a grid at the Nurburgring in 69 to 72 !

The factory sold off ex rally cars (Tour de France 71 car amongst others), probably because cheaper as much as anything and the factory had no need for 'old' race cars - money however they did need !. Kremer cars - yellow and green cars from 72 - were 911 T chassis.

ALL ST's were built from an option list basically, there is no such thing as a standard ST.

Anyone who can say with certainty that they built X amount of cars and the correct spec is such and such is making it up as they go along. I have known many of the people around building and racing these cars in period - incl from the factory - and none could tell you then so impossible today. The only way to know an original car is through looking at it for factory mod's etc (even the slightest) and tracing back it's history.

Lastly, most books are misleading at best and totally wrong at worst. They are usually written by people who know nothing about the cars and then 'co written' by someone from the past who was there but doesn't really know / remember. Their main target is to sell books ! Ask any old driver now and he'll give you chapter and verse but all should be taken with a pinch of salt. They didn't know back in the day but as values (and invitations to classic race meets) go up so their memory comes back !!"

[70SATMan]

Remember, the factory teams never raced a car on circuit, only in rally. There were quite a few works cars ( rally) and they usually used karmann shells with S chassis No.

This intrigues me as most everthing I've retained indicates that S chassis were not Karmann. Many Ts and some Es yes. So, if they were purposly starting with S Chassis, why deviate from what was normaly being produced? If they were consciously using Karmann chassis and giving them S VINs then that seems to imply that the factory knew something about those chassis that was not widely known at the time.

[HughH]

If they were consciously using Karmann chassis and giving them S VINs then that seems to imply that the factory knew something about those chassis that was not widely known at the time.

Michael another explanation is that they did not want to disrupt the Porsche factory production line, as the race department cars came off it at an early stage for modifications, so they used shells off the Karmann line instead.

My understanding is that the actual numbers were not stamped in until quite a late stage in the process, and until quite late in the production process there was no discernible difference in the shells anyway and all necessary shell modifications would be done by the race department in any case.

The only logistical difficulty would be making sure the build sheet, which was written before any work was started on constructing the car, and where the numbers were allocated, went to the correct shell manufacturing line.

[70SATMan]

My understanding is that the actual numbers were not stamped in until quite a late stage in the process, and until quite late in the production process there was no discernible difference in the shells anyway and all necessary shell modifications would be done by the race department in any case.

Agreed Hugh, the production number of the chassis being the tracker until the VIN (and build for the E and T) was assigned. The production timeline makes sense as well since Karmann was producing the majority of the T and E chassis and would have been geared up. Now what is interesting is if they did use Karmann chassis, did they deviate from the normal (and maybe required) process of identifying the chassis manufacturer in the VIN? I admit I don't store known ST VINS in my noggin but, I think if I saw a S VIN with the Karmann "2", it would have stuck out.

[smedley]

I have photos taken by a close friend during his visit to Zuffenhausen in early 1973 (snow on the ground). The assembly line photos clearly show RSs going down the line with "regular" 911s of T, E and S variety. He caught two photos of either a GP White of Light Yellow RSR (poor light) sitting in the corner of the main assembly hall. There were stools and tools around it, and the front and rear lids were up indicating it was actively being worked on. The RS on the assembly line did not have the rear bumper installed (glass or steel) and no glass or interior trim, so I could not tell if it was touring or lightweight. Additionally neither I or my friend could remember exactly when he was there. If it were before March of '73, when the RS FIA homolgation papers went through it could have been one of the "RH" homologation cars that was assembled then re-assembled after weighing. Main point being here is clearly an RSR sitting in the main assembly hall receiving attention. Yes, it was pulled, but not in the (mythical) racing department...in the main assembly hall. This supports the earlier observations that the various sports purpose 911s built for customers (including racers) were simply option codes on the build sheets, and went down the line with other mortal 911s! The whole ST, TR, RT, SR, whatever thing has taken on urban mythical stature. Officially there were Ts, Es and Ss from late '68 with various option packages and the RS, RSR designations came into being in '73. The factory fielded rally/race cars probably were pulled off to a different building so the day to day race prep for the team could be done as in any race shop. We all know that now the GT-3 racing variants are not on the line, although at my last visit there were GT-3 and GT-3 RSs going down the line. The RSRs were out at Weisach.

[peekaboo]

Yes, it was pulled, but not in the (mythical) racing department...in the main assembly hall.

I don't know where this is at the factory (I will find out), but I don't see any other cars around but two RSR's inline.

RS book :

[smedley]

Here are the '73 shots of the RSR and the line shot of an RS. As a standard visitor at the time he was only allowed in the "public" tour areas. No real clues from the background. Although the car on the line and the RSR are the same color, the RSR has it's rear bumper just visable, so they are not the same car.

[fryardds]

Thanks Mark. Very cool!

Looks like a light yellow Touring RS based on the hood badge (although in late Feb I think hood badges were put on M471 cars too). Definitely 2 different cars. The first photo shows a hood with no center fill but the RSR has this of course.

Boy would love to see that document taped on the ducktail.

Maybe the RSR shells were moved over to Werk One in this configuration. Have you ever seen the Porsche movie 'One for the Road'? It shows a Carrera moving down the line but also shows Werk One with a bunch of race cars, including several RSRs. I will try to find my copy now that I have seen these photos to verify the degree of completion of these cars.

Thanks again. Any more?

[peekaboo]

My scan is pretty bad, but the floor is brick. Differant from the floor where the cars in the color photos are ....which is concrete.