Value of unstamped engine cases

[Eminence Gris]

To get back on the main topic: I have seen many restamped cases that were easy to spot. It is possible I have seen restamped cases I could not detect.

First issue is the font. I have seen taller, skinnier numbers, non-matching "3" and "6." Second issue is the stars not matching in size and shape. [I once saw both on a claimed-original RS engine.]

If you have ever done this sort of stamping, you'll find it's hard to strike the same depth on each character. In addition, if the punches are not perfectly perpendicular to the surface, it's really obvious.

I've had enough trouble reproducing a paint code tag to know it's an art to do good stamping.

I've seen cases with numbers filed off and I understand there is a way to recover the original number if material several mm deeper than the number stamping isn't removed.

In the heyday of 911 theft in LA (late 80s), people would just hit the alternator stand surface with a hammer and break a chunk out of it -- an "accident" which usually happened on the last 3-4 digits...

[Frank Beck]

I don't think there's any doubt that a blank case can be made "undetectable" after being properly stamped.

My beef was that someone could pull this off after grinding, welding, aging, etc.

[Richardnew]

Frank is saying that this has to be done properly. This is not some sort of backyard thing. This takes some level of skill. A few years back we gave some very experienced judges 10 cases. Four of them were frauds. Not a single judge got all the answers correct.

I'm somewhat amused that people are shocked about counterfeiting. This has been going on in the art world for centuries. The same with furniture. We're going to see a lot more of this as the values go up. No one is going to counterfeit a 911T but they sure will do an RSR.

Mercedes built 40 SSKs. Today there are over 100 of them in existence.

I just encountered a case where a person thought he bought a 993 Supercup car. It turned out that the tub was from a Euro RS. The original car was totaled in a racing accident. The seller bought a new Euro RS tub from Porsche and then transferred all of the Supercup parts to the RS tub. The final irony is that today the Euro RS is more valuable than the Supercup car. There is some justice in the world.

Just be carful. There are a lot of very clever, and devious, people out there.

Richard Newton

[brookedale091462]

"Mercedes built 40 SSKs. Today there are over 100 of them in existence. "

Very true-for years experienced, mostly german, collectors have been buying 540K Coupes and turning them into Spezial roadsters by placing new ( and very beautiful) new bodies on the frame. Now the rebodied cars are worth many millions.

[Richardnew]

Regarding the skill of the counterfeiters. Prewar German steel has a unique molecular structure that can be detected with some sophisticated equipment. Once owners began doing an analysis on their frames all of the prewar German railroad track began to disappear. Interesting.

Richard Newton

[geneulm]

I don't doubt at all that someone with the proper skills could do this correctly: look at the rare gun market. Or better yet, the rare German gun market. There is a crop of very expert counterfeit metal workers out there who can phony up just about any history imaginable. And give it just the right amount of petina to make the package believable to fool any expert. They always start with something generally hard to find and turn it into something that is even harder to find. A $5k gun and make it a $20k gun.

[sithot]

I just encountered a case where a person thought he bought a 993 Supercup car. It turned out that the tub was from a Euro RS. The original car was totaled in a racing accident. The seller bought a new Euro RS tub from Porsche and then transferred all of the Supercup parts to the RS tub. The final irony is that today the Euro RS is more valuable than the Supercup car. There is some justice in the world.

Just be carful. There are a lot of very clever, and devious, people out there.

Richard Newton

Just as an acquaintance relayed to me about an RS he found in France in the early 80's that was converted from a 911-T. (The RS was wadded up and they moved the numbers. What they "hadn't done" was their homework. He called the factory with the "control number" on the now converted "T" and was immediately told "Nein". Further digging proved what he suspected. Somewhere somebody has a fake car.

Tom