Elephant Racing Low-Friction Control Arm Mounts and other suspension questions..

[andrea70]

I'm with Flieger.
If you have new suspensions, new torsion bars and new antiroll bars , correctely sized for you engine/wheels dimension/ability to drive, the only way to make all those stuff working in the best way is to attach them to the chassis with rigid elements.
Of course we are talking about sports car, that MUST be drive focused, not confort focused!
The best benchmark is a modern GT3 911. If your early 911 is quiter and softer than this car, you made a mistake somewhere...

[hoffman912]

John,

thank you for confirming this. The car is purely street driven. no track. maybe an auto cross once every few years. but i do drive the crap out of it when i am in the twisties and give it a very hard work out..

i have heard that the PB are not good for street so i was going to go with all rubber, but i was thinking monoballs on camber plates (heard a strut brace is useless with out monoballs there), and i was gong to do weather sealed monoballs in the rear banana arm, because face it.. thats the one thats really hard to get to so why not do it once and never touch it again.

the other thing is when i got my 2000 bmw (used) about 5 years ago, i went fpor the one with sports package. in ohio it was the worst move.. i feel every crack in the road in a land where roads look like the aftermath of gettysburg. i drive fritz cross country for events (ie 912 rendezvous in ca 4 times now) and i drive him cross many states to meet up with others to go on drives (ie like the rally in the valley, mountain melee, 912 event in asheville etc). i cannot have it undrivable.


so i have already established rubber is where i want to go..

so again. just to confirm the original questions.. low friction control arms are made pointless with rubber bushings right? and monoballs in the camber plate and banana arm would be a bad idea then for an all rubber bushing a arm and spring plate bushing set up?

[John Z Goriup]

I'm with Flieger.
If you have new suspensions, new torsion bars and new antiroll bars , correctely sized for you engine/wheels dimension/ability to drive, the only way to make all those stuff working in the best way is to attach them to the chassis with rigid elements.
Of course we are talking about sports car, that MUST be drive focused, not confort focused!
The best benchmark is a modern GT3 911. If your early 911 is quiter and softer than this car, you made a mistake somewhere...

What a curious mix of dogmatic, subjective & conflicting statements.

On one hand you hold the GT3 up to the Registry as the standard for ride quality in 911s, yet on the other hand the GT3's design incorporates a rubber mounted sub-frame to connect the fundamentally different multi-link rear suspension of a 996 / 997 / 991 to the chassis for the very purpose of isolating the noise and shock / vibration-generating elements from the occupants. There's not a "rigid connection" to be found in a GT3. The secret to the GT3s magical ride is shock valving, coil spring rates ( which behave fundamentally different than torsion bars ), the placement & hardness of the various suspension bushings, and any number of electronic assists such as PASM, POSIP, PCCB, PSM, PCM, etc. not blind adherence to arbitrary design concepts such as " must be rigidly connected ". Ceteris paribus, the comfortable driver who is not distracted & discomforted by noise, shock, and other negative effects of inappropriate suspension will always be the faster ( more efficient ) driver.

....."drive focused, not confort focused" ???..............that's precisely the kind of statement I was referring to when I said "that I was swayed by uninformed and immature advise by extreme opinions" in my above post. May I respectfully suggest that it would it be immeasurably more practical and efficient to focus on results, i.e. ride quality, ability to maintain maximum speed, lowest lap times etc. when discussing optimum suspension configuration, instead of ignoring available solutions and restricting the scope of suspension design / choice to the nebulous concept of "it's a sports car", and the inevitable conclusion on the part of the reader of your post that you're implying that it therefore cannot and must not be comfortable.

Andrea, Happy Easter,.........and no disrespect intended.

[Longballa]

John,

thank you for confirming this. The car is purely street driven. no track. maybe an auto cross once every few years. but i do drive the crap out of it when i am in the twisties and give it a very hard work out..

i have heard that the PB are not good for street so i was going to go with all rubber, but i was thinking monoballs on camber plates (heard a strut brace is useless with out monoballs there), and i was gong to do weather sealed monoballs in the rear banana arm, because face it.. thats the one thats really hard to get to so why not do it once and never touch it again.

the other thing is when i got my 2000 bmw (used) about 5 years ago, i went fpor the one with sports package. in ohio it was the worst move.. i feel every crack in the road in a land where roads look like the aftermath of gettysburg. i drive fritz cross country for events (ie 912 rendezvous in ca 4 times now) and i drive him cross many states to meet up with others to go on drives (ie like the rally in the valley, mountain melee, 912 event in asheville etc). i cannot have it undrivable.


so i have already established rubber is where i want to go..

so again. just to confirm the original questions.. low friction control arms are made pointless with rubber bushings right? and monoballs in the camber plate and banana arm would be a bad idea then for an all rubber bushing a arm and spring plate bushing set up?

Harry, if you're street only I'd say get the OEM rubber from Elephant but in the Sport hardness they sell. I'd still use monoball for the trailing arm as I don't think it transmits much harshness from that point. I'd get the sport rubber and use it in the stock camber plates. The Low Friction Mounts are only to be used with PB and if you've had a front pan replaced. Another good option are the Delrin type that Marco and Tony use at TLG. They put them on a lathe and custom fit them to your suspension. They last forever with zero maintenace and are good for street and occasional track work. I think they come from Smart Racing (JWE). They are not hard plastic.

[hoffman912]

Thanks for confirming. Will not invest in low friction mounts then (saves me $200!).

May i ask why you say the rubber in the camber plates vs the monoballs there? just curious.

[RSTarga]

I fully agree with John, my only question is what he is referring to when he says OEM bushings. When I did my suspension there were no OEM bushings available without buying compete new a-arms. I think ER's rubber is every bit as good as OEM rubber.
Fleiger; As an ex racer I understand your theory that race type suspension (rose joint type) has very little friction. Unfortunately it also doesn't have any type of isolation from road vibrations and HAS to transmit this directly up the steering and through the seat of your pants. If you are on glass smooth roads the theory is true, but on real world roads your fillings will come out. Ask anybody who has run Sebring, (notorious for it's rough surface), how they feel inside the race car. I knew a racer who passed a kidney stone during a race there.

[Flieger]

What a curious mix of dogmatic, subjective & conflicting statements.

On one hand you hold the GT3 up to the Registry as the standard for ride quality in 911s, yet on the other hand the GT3's design incorporates a rubber mounted sub-frame to connect the fundamentally different multi-link rear suspension of a 996 / 997 / 991 to the chassis for the very purpose of isolating the noise and shock / vibration-generating elements from the occupants. There's not a "rigid connection" to be found in a GT3. The secret to the GT3s magical ride is shock valving, coil spring rates ( which behave fundamentally different than torsion bars ), the placement & hardness of the various suspension bushings, and any number of electronic assists such as PASM, POSIP, PCCB, PSM, PCM, etc. not blind adherence to arbitrary design concepts such as " must be rigidly connected ". Ceteris paribus, the comfortable driver who is not distracted & discomforted by noise, shock, and other negative effects of inappropriate suspension will always be the faster ( more efficient ) driver.

....."drive focused, not confort focused" ???..............that's precisely the kind of statement I was referring to when I said "that I was swayed by uninformed and immature advise by extreme opinions" in my above post. May I respectfully suggest that it would it be immeasurably more practical and efficient to focus on results, i.e. ride quality, ability to maintain maximum speed, lowest lap times etc. when discussing optimum suspension configuration, instead of ignoring available solutions and restricting the scope of suspension design / choice to the nebulous concept of "it's a sports car", and the inevitable conclusion on the part of the reader of your post that you're implying that it therefore cannot and must not be comfortable.

Andrea, Happy Easter,.........and no disrespect intended.

Please explain what you mean when you say that coil springs behave fundamentally differently from torsion bars.

FWIW, the GT3RS 4.0 uses Heim joints in the toe links at least. And even Subaru uses them on the WRX or STi or something like that. Mountainbikes use rigid bushings/bearings as well. They are required to have a good ride over rough stuff.

[hoffman912]

Ask anybody who has run Sebring, (notorious for it's rough surface), how they feel inside the race car. I knew a racer who passed a kidney stone during a race there.

holy crap!

[Longballa]

Thanks for confirming. Will not invest in low friction mounts then (saves me $200!).

May i ask why you say the rubber in the camber plates vs the monoballs there? just curious.

Every time you hit a bump it's going straight up to the bottom of the front camber plates where the back trailing arm is hinged. I just think you'd feel it a lot more up front. I think the Sport rubber from Elephant would be more than enough up there and still give you a good ride. It's what I'm using on the 72S. Elephant rubber but in the Sport hardness all around.

[hoffman912]

Thanks. I have only seen the spring plate bushings in sports hardness (just checked again). are they available in all of the other products?