The real 73 RSR TF Winner - Porsche Factory Scam??

Here's a link to an article John Starkey wrote about RS#0001.........

http://www.johnstarkeycars.com/pages/articles_fa.html

I just returned from a visit to the museum and have some pictures of the Martini car...before I was asked "not to touch the cars, please". I opened the passenger door to look at the oil release button area...it was a hole with a rubber filler of some kind there now. The underneath shot shows the threaded boss for mounting the tank, but I could not get my camera into the well to see how the oil door opening had been covered. Inside, the dash is a stock unit with knee guards, and in the rear, you can see the mounting holes for the rear window hinge in the black headliner.

I was just about to open the hood (which would reveal the VIN) when the don't touch request came, although the filler holes in the hood were just holes...no fuel tank with tall filler necks below, but there was a cover stuffed in there, so I could not see the tank. Above the hood are the original Martini stripes as shown on #3 and #107, and I don't recall seeing them on another Martini painted car, and this is the element that doesn't fit any other car at the Targa in 73. The museum car now has the side stripes on the top, but they could be easily added to a blank top as 3/107.

I think it is clear it is a production car, and most likely a 72. The only question is which one? #9 did not have the stripes above the hood, so it is likely not that car. My conclusion is that the museum car is #107.

Gib

Hey Gib

well done on your "raid" on the museum car. it is a shame you couldn't get to see the chassis number but what you have shown is of great interest.

I continue to be surprised that although this car is portrayed as the winner it is not even in the correct livery - ie it has the arrow on the front instead of the loop of Martini colour on the "real" #8 - but at least the museum does not claim it is #588 or even directly claim IT is the winner, and calls it chassis #20.

I suppose the really big question remains "is it chassis #20?" - from all I have seen in the past, and this thread, I would not be keen to place a bet that it was ;) . However IF it is (and it would be a bit of a surprise if the factory museum book deliberately recorded a wrong number) your little "raid" gives more weight to the argument that cars at least up to number 20 were built on 72 shells.

finally, one for the conspiracy nuts........is the factory's use of the "arrow" livery a subtle acknowledgment of the real heritage of the car shown, which may be illustrious but a little less so than being the final Targa winner?

Gib (and others)
I have just been looking back thru this thread and my database and notes etc in regard to the identity of the factory Museum car that you just looked at.

We all agree it is not the Targa winner it is made to look like.
Your research ("raid") suggests that it may have been originally a 72 shell.

The factory museum booklet claims it is R2: 9113600020, which began life as a 3 litre prototype in Nov 72 and then was raced on 3 Nov 1972 in the Tour de Corse with Larrousse/Delferrier; Reg No: LEO-ZA-69, and race #2.

This thread postulates as to whether it was race #9 in the 1973 Targa Florio - a car which by photographic evidence from the event was a 1972 shell.

Alternatively it may have been one of the versions of race #107 - but if it had been the race version it also was a 1972 shell as the photographic evidence from the race shows a 72 shell for that car as well.

However I just looked at the 1972 Tour De Corse photos I have (some from Curt's fantastic historical photos thread). thanks Curt!!

Attached is a contemporary photo from page 8 of that thread showing LEO-ZA-69,race #2 which is supposed to be R2 showing the all important RHS rear.

There is NO obvious sign of an oil door.

(However I have other pics of LEO-ZA-68 with both race # 2 and race # 6 from the same event - both are on Curt's thread.(thanks Curt:) ) Maybe they were switching number plates? )

Assuming for a minute that the attached photo is definitely R2 and in November 1972 R2 did not have an oil door (and it does have black trim like 73 cars) how could it have had an oil door at the Targa? Does that possibly rule out R2 as either #9 OR #107 in the race??

If so what is the museum car? is it really R2? how does that tie up with the signs of a 1972 shell you have reported?

Also does it mean, as I have now seen Starkey speculate on his site (links earlier in this thread), that both #9 and #107 were "stand ins" at the 1973 Targa -
one possibly the Zasada car renumbered to RS #1;
and one possibly another ex ST possibly the Strahle "red" car which Starkey postulates is S/T 911 230 0841 possibly renumbered as RS 9113600002;
one of which was most likely the Singer "mongrel"

(maybe I need to "get a life" :rolleyes: )

surely i detect a challenge here ? :D
First person to get the hood up and chassis number of the car in the museum gets ... well nothing ... but is a real hero ??!!:eek:

would certainly assist in the discussion !!!

It might be at Rennsport again. I bet if you ask nice enough someone will raise the hood for you.

Welcome back Gib, or should I say Sherlock! Sounds like a great trip, but I'm sure you're glad to be back with the horses.

One last clue I just discovered looking at my pictures from the museum. The hood on the museum car has 2 fuel filler hole plugs that match those on #107 taken at the TF race. It has been repainted with the arrow stripes, but this piles further weight on the museum car being #107. Why would this hood have been switched to another car?

Gib

Not to add any confusion...

- First is vehicle pass for N0. 0020

- Second and third is of Singer's Targa notes for No. 0588

These out of Busing, Cotton, Davenport, Muller, and Oursler's "PORSCHE 911 in Racing"

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Chuck:

Can you see in your documents if the oil door is visible on #3, as I cannot see the detail well enough? If not, it is possible that the tank and door had been removed prior to sending the car to the TF race, maybe to make it look more like a 73. This seems to confirm that the #3 car, which was a 72 originally, was sent to the TF and most likely raced as 107, because it has the arrow stripes on the hood and cowl and none other did.

My original conclusion had been that Starkey's book which shows 020 as R2, really confirmed the RS book comment that "RS2" was numbered 107 at the TF race, and that this was a renumbered 72 chassis.

This would also confirm that the museum car (020 as stated in their records) is in fact #107 from the TF race.

Let the arguments fly.

Gib