1969 Competition 911

119300932, the '69 Acropolis Rally winner with many lives afterwards, discussed in this thread:

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...-Factory-Rally

Another thread + comments . . .

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Originally Posted by monaco1

. . . The problem is that the auction houses (or the owners who consign) think ALL old Porsches, both road and race cars, are worth ALL the money when in fact - as has always been - only the best sells for best money - usually !!
All qualities of Porsche have indeed risen quite a lot but the gap between a top car and an average car is still wide - something these auctions fail to understand.
This car / chassis No, was basically a narrow 2.0 ltr single plug rally car that was over time converted into a group 4 race car with not much decent history there after and in later life.
It's true value would be back to it's original 69 spec. The group 4 parts when removed and sold (race engine etc, etc) would be worth roughy the cost of the restoration back to original spec - give or take - so would cover that.
The original cases of that car in 69 would have been magnesium also - not aluminium as fitted !! - so no worries about loosing the "matching numbers !" (rallies - tour de France, several times Le Mans - inc 2.5 ltr - all with original cases !?!? - "there are no virgins in a whore house " !).
As such, it's not worth anything like - about half - of one of the 21 real 1972 factory 2.5 S-R's - or 2.5 S/T as they are often and mistakenly called ( i.e.; racing originals are 911-R, S-R & RS-R which were all built at the factory to full spec, whilst a ST is a 911S built for competition purposes, either racing or rally, narrow or wide, with a multitude of different and chosen spec's).
I think 900k is the right money for that car, whilst if it had been one of the original factory 2.5 S-R with good history / results / provenance and in top condition it would have certainly gone well above the high estimate. But, as they say, " if my Auntie had balls, she'd be my Uncle" !
Also, rally cars are not, and have never been, worth as much as circuit racing cars - the auction valuation was just too high.
As a rule, these auction houses are no experts, more jack of all trades, and it's usually the the buyers / collectors / owners that set the values. They are far better informed and educated in these cars than the auction houses and - apart from the odd attack of auction fever - know exactly what they are bidding on and paying for.
This is also evident in both the Carrera RS (Touring and LWT) that were in the sale, both very average cars. The LWT was valued way too high, for that car, so didn't sell, and the touring sold at a reasonably high level for an OK ish, non matching car. Not all RS are the same just because they are RS's - as we all know.
When something just right, rare and correct comes up for sale it usually sells for very high money. The market / buyers, as the prices rise, are becoming far more discerning and rightly so.
This bares out in all makes. If you look at the results, not only recent sales but last year also, you'll find that the high prices are still all around, but the car has to be very good or very rare, and if the car is average, then an average estimate should follow. As Thomas said above, "a very healthy market" . . .

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Originally Posted by monaco1

. . . Not just 1970. I am aware of that model, they were offered as the '911S Grundmodell' from 69, i've owned one.
They used one in the advertising photo's to promote the 'new up coming 2.2 Ltr engines' in later 69 (including the light ivory car in your top picture taken from the press release and poster). I have the original spec sheets for those cars somewhere in my files. A base model stripped out 911S but not really a S/T.
S/T refers to the M471 LWT chassis option for competition purposes - both narrow and wide - and then spec'd up accordingly from that basis. Not all S/T were full group 4 with wide flares and race engines and not all had the M491 option also - both Werks team cars and customer cars.

Also available were 2.4S in LWT spec with M471 chassis option. I still own a 72 car, narrow body and standard mechanically with M471 LWT chassis / panels, trimmed as a LWT, bucket seats, with no body trim, no body protection but standard mechanically. Like a RS LWT but a 2.4S instead of a 2.7 RS. Listed on the original factory build spec as 911S 2.4 M471 LWT chassis.
This is not a S/T either as post 71 when the S/T stopped, but a M471 LWT E series 2.4S.
Same as you could buy a 911 RS M471, you could also order a 911S M471 in 72 and 73. Rare but a few were built and sold to customers, and not only in Germany.
Some of the werks drivers also had these cars to use as road cars.

Michael Kaiser, amongst others, also owned one of these (1972 E series narrow, standard 2.4S, M471 LWT) which he ordered through Max Moritz and used as a road car in Europe during the 72 season whilst he was racing his 2.5 S-R. It later gained wide fenders - fitted by Moritz - and was used as a camera car for the 'Speed Merchants' film. I also used to own this car many years ago and knew it for even longer. This is one of the more widely known cars of this type. I still probably have quite a lot of photo's of that car and copies of the old road titles / chassis No's & road registration No's etc.
If it were a 71 car then it would be a narrow S/T but as from 72 it is a M471 LWT 911S . . .

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Originally Posted by monaco1

. . . Attachment 321865Attachment 321866Attachment 321867 . . .

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Wow!

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Originally Posted by glaverbel911

. . . Whats not mentioned in this letter from Porsche about this 69S is the car also had a bare interior, skid plates, 100l tank, ivory color and a porsche decal on the back lid . . .

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Reference . . .

VIN = 119300865

Out of curiosity, why do people go back into threads, years after posting content, and delete important photos or information they shared with the community?

Did anyone get all the "Ernie W" detail photos of 119300009 stashed away before he deleted them?

If so, please PM me.

Thanks

Attachment 429098

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Originally Posted by Ernie W

. . . more details to spot . . .

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Hhhhhhh




...........

One question re the Trans-Am series from 1969-70. How many of the 911's LWB
cars? I'd assume many of the competitors would have upgraded to the 69S model
as soon as possible?

69 cars as upgrades were typically skipped from my research. This includes Le Mans and other period series races. You typically see 70-71 cars as next logical paths, probably because of the displacement changes.

I would love to find someone who has tracked 69 competition cars beyond the few mentioned in this thread.

Interesting...did some quick research and it appears that in 1969, the Porsche 911's raced were either 1967 or 1968 cars (and then we get into the Model Year conundrum). Ultimately, there were very few cars raced so it's a pretty select group. I don't see any 911's in 1970...

http://www.racingsportscars.com/cham.../Trans-Am.html

Some examples...

http://www.porsport.com/1968_911_trans_am
http://porsport.com/1967_porsche_911...trans_am_coupe

As was said before the TransAm was pretty much two classes of sedan racing 'Over 2.5 lt. and Under 2.5 lt.'

Close to end of '68 SCCA deemed the 911 NOT a sedan (even with all the 4 passenger seating arguments Porsche made for the last 2 years)

Meanwhile in SCCA 'Class racing' 2 lt. 911's actually stared in D/Production in '66, however by '67 they were classed in C/P all the way through '69... For 1970/71 2.2 lt. SCCA started classing the 911's in B/Production except for the 2.2 T's that were still C/P...

Also remember that SCCA allowed a 1.2 mm bore increase for all production classes...


Here's the page for my buddy's '71 GCR

Hope this makes it a bit clearer... However the SCCA were VERY ARBITRARY back then.... :rolleyes:

cm