Printable View
Why then, would the factory try to pass this #9 car (which has an almost as important history) off as #8...?
Specially since they must have known that mr Kitchak has the original #8
Looking back: it would have made the Rennsport reunion picture much more impressive, if both #8 and #9 stood next to each other.
I don't think I'm 100% convinced ....yet. :D
So less than a month after the Targa Florio (13th May), The "museum car " was sent by the factory to Le Mans (June 9 and 10th) to run under the Porsche Sonauto BP team colours (#48) with Gregg and Chasseuil, and arrived 14th.
No wonder they had lost the original Martini paint scheme by the time the Museum restored the car!
This is the only image I found:
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/1720/810sc6.jpg
I tend to agree with Patrick911 that restoring the car as #9 would have been better, and more historically correct of course. Here is what the document says that is on display with the RSR at the museum: (my picture is too small to post and read)
"This car was based on the Carrera RS registered for the road, a 210 bhp Porsche 911 weighing 900 kg. In the RSR version, the 2.8 litre flat six was initially rated at 300 bhp, but was enlarged to 3 litres and 315 bhp later. In 1973, the race car that many customers also used in competition achieved its first successful results: the RSR won three international and seven German championships in 1973. Herbert Muller and Gus van Lennep won the last Targa Florio in 1973. This 911 wrote sports history; Rs and RSR models won just about every GT category race in 1973 and the years that followed."
This description seems to say that the RSR on display is representative of the RSR program, and it doesn't say it is the car that won the TF. So, no scam intended...but if any of us owned the car, we would probably have it restored to the #9 look I think.
Gib
Milou, you solved it! I have followed this tread and it has been great even if it has been difficult to understand all of it. Would be great to know the facts about how many car where acctually used in the race and training and how many of them crached. Maybe the factory has the answers Milou?
John
You're right. I was thinking to wait a while, and if still needed, go back to the factory through one consolidated email with all the relevant questions.
I don't want to harrass them as I'm hoping to be welcomed next year when I go and see the Museum!;)
One picture of it, but it is blur.
http://manu2341s.free.fr/images/le%2...R%20n%b048.jpg
When searching for this, I noticed different chassisnumbers of the 14th arrival of 73 Le Mans.Quote:
This is the actual history of the museum-car:
1973 Le Mans, 14th, Gregg/Chasseuil
1973 pre-training Le Mans, 4-hour race:4th, Schurti/Koinigg
Here it states that entry:
#48 Sonauto BP Racing 911 360 1033 Gregg/Chasseuil finished 14th
HTML Code:http://www.classicscars.com/chassis/porsche/rsr28.htm
and not 911 360 0020 (R2)HTML Code:http://www.teamdan.com/archive/wsc/1973/73lemans.html
Also, while searching for the results of the practice and 4hr race of Le Mans, only the following turned up:
Test weekend and 4 hours of Le mans entry:
#62 Martini racing 911 360 0020 (R2) van Lennep/Muller
(note that these are different dribvers then mentioned by the museum)
However, in the 24Hr entry it never shows this car anymore. Lennep and Muller did race, but in entry:
#46 Martini racing 911 360 0686 (R7) van Lennep/Muller
Funny stuff, Schurti and Koenig did enter the 4 hrs race (entry #61, and became 4th indeed...... in 911 360 0588 (!!!)
HTML Code:http://wsrp.ic.cz/nonchamp1973.html
I know that data on the internet is really unreliable, but as mentioned before, it adds only more confusion indeed.....
Milou
well done: great initiative to get that information
However I do agree that it adds more questions than it answers:eek:
Is is good to get the factory's confirmation that R2 was car #9 at the Targa. I dont think there was ever any real question
that it was the actual winner, car #8, - the history of that car is too well documented.
it does however raise the following questions:
1 Given the clear photos of car 9 with an oil door and a third "cutout for its exhaust, is R2 a converted 1972 ST despite its presence in the list of official RS's and 1973 production numbers, or just built on a 1972 shell?
2 was R2 one of the LEO-ZA cars at all despite the claim in the RS book that is was LEA-ZA-69? see thread http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ad.php?t=16839
The response from the factory does not mention this event at all but it may not have been asked the direct question.
Other questions that have not been solved by this are:
We still do not know the identity of the 107 car for certain and which car(s) were wrecked by Pucci. R8 seems a good candidate but was there another one or did the practice car get fixed.
The statement that R2 was also the Sonauto #48 car at Le Mans only weeks after the targa is interesting. Like patrick911 I had it recorded that this car was 1033. However that information has only come from website information and may well be incorrect. It must be more likely that the factory would be correct on this.
I have attached a pic of the Gregg Sonauto car taken from the rear. It seems to have silver light trims BUT it also does not seem to have an oil door. It is very hard to tell with the quality of the pic but when I blew it up I could not find one. Also the pic is too dark to see if it has the third exhaust outlet that car #9 had at the targa.
Finally when was this race??
"1973 pre-training Le Mans, 4-hour race:4th, Schurti/Koinigg"
how does it fit in with the Targa and Le Mans schedule
Nice find Hugh! :cool:
Another interesting question is:
Why, if Martini Racing has apparently at least 2 RSR's ('0588' and '0020'), why then would it sell this 0020 to Sonauto BP during the race-season and race with 0686 instead.....
That doesn't make any sense. So unless otherwise proven, I believe the '360 1033' for the Sonauto car to be correct...
By the way: Timeline of the championship (and non-championship races) in 1973:
April 1 Le mans testing weekend & 4 hrs of Le Mans
May 13 Targa Florio
June 9/10 24hrs Le Mans
Patrick
Another related question is why would R2, which was a prototype class car entered in class S 3.0 at the le mans test weekend on April 1 and in the same class at the Targa, be entered in the lower GTS 3 class at Le Mans when the other "R" cars were entered in S 3.0 class at Le Mans and the "customer" cars entered in GTS 3?
Maybe the factory was simply "helping" a favored importer (and driver Gregg) and giving itself the best chance of winning in the post 917 era?? Certainly by then there were other, newer, R cars available to the factory team, and loaning a solid performer to a favored team was common practice.
I know there was a decision at the start of the season for the factory to only compete in prototype class and leave GTS to customer cars. However I would have thought that there was more to changing class back from prototype than just changing the drive train ??
In any event this site http://wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/...champ1973.html
shows R2 car #62 entered by Martini Racing and winning the 4 hour with Gijs van Lennep and Herbert Müller driving and R6 (0588) , car 61, in fourth with Manfred Schurti and Helmuth Koinigg.
BUT......Given a choice between believing this and believing the factory I would go for the factory version, especially since I would have thought that Gijs van Lennep and Herbert Müller would have been more likely to get the newer R6 which was also the car they drove at Monza 1000km (DNF) 25.4.1973; the winning car at the Targa 13.5.1973; and Zeltweg 1000km 24.6.1973.
Therefore it IS likely that R2 was the #61 car a the Le Mans test on April 1, then did the Targa in May and then Le Mans in June for Sonauto.
Many of the other R cars had busier schedules. (apart from the races mentioned above R6 was also at Vallelunga (25.3.1973); Spa (6.5.1973) - only a week before the Targa; Le Mans (10.6.1973); and Watkins Glen ( 21.7.1973) for Penske racing.)
the more interesting questions for me (as stated on a previous post) are was R2 on a 72 shell (or maybe it was also crashed at the targa and the pics we have are of a stand-in:confused: ) and was it one of the tour de course LEO cars in late 1972 ?