The real 73 RSR TF Winner - Porsche Factory Scam??

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Originally Posted by varunan123

But both cars can't be at the factory museum-and they do mention that it was crashed by pucci and fixed in time for race-why would pucci be driving the number 9 car,if he had access to two 107 cars?I would think you would drive the car assigned to you for the practice so you can get a feel for the car.

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Each of the entrants had to qualify. I am not sure if that was each driver, or each car. Given Pucci had wrecked the original car 107, (presumably the one he was originally allotted to) they would be keen to give him seat time while they reorganised.

Maybe the T car was already being used by someone else? Or maybe they first of all reallocated him to car #9? I suspect that they may not have finalized the driver pairings at that stage.

In practice time Haldi was qualifying the 908/3 and was not even on the Martini team.

Maybe Pucci was assigned to car #9 after 107 and crashed it but not beyond fixing, but then when Haldi became available he was slotted into #9 with Kinnunen and Pucci was relegated to the old car 002 resurrected as the second 107?

After all after damaging 2 of the R cars why would he get a better seat than the well regarded Haldi coming across from the 908?

If Milou gets in touch with him we might get to know first hand.

Hugh:

I think the wind tunnel test picture in the RS book shows the car to be the Strahle car because it was the only one I have ever seen that had the small mud flap attached to the rear well opening, and that clue alone provides good evidence for being #107, and the #3 press car also...or at least one version if there was more than one.

Gib

This is the most brilliantly, tenaciously, and passionately investigated threads I've ever read........... I'm truly in awe....:) :) :)

I think you guys deserve to take a couple of minutes to relax and picture yourself going 4 times this speed........as 'most' of the cars and drivers that you're researching in fact DID....:eek: ;) :)

http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ttanadrive.flv

Cheers, and you guys are FANTASTIC !!!!!!!!!!!

From experience:

In an International race, (and a National race), in Europe, you were only allowed to qualify the car that you were entered in. Even in practice, it would be very rare to have drivers swapping cars as they all wanted to get used to their cars for the race.

Also, I am quite sure messrs Van Lennep/Herbert Muller would have looked very unfavourably on some amateur driver, (in this case Pucci), driving THEIR very special Porsche factory prototype, let alone Singer sanctioning it!

No, I am sure 0974, R8, was crashed by one of the factory's drivers, (Kinnunen?) and Pucci crashed the Group 4 GT car. Hugh, the #107 car, without a "Mary Stuart" tail would have been raced in the up-to 3-litre GT Group 4 class by May 1973, such "special" pieces as it had on it being homologated into Group 4 AFTER Gregg/Haywood's victory at Daytona in February 1973, when they had had to run in the Group 5 class.

Karl Ludvigsen, in "Excellence was expected", says about the 1973 Targa Florio: "Three weeks before the race, (May 13th), a practice Hack was...lapping in the hands of the works Martini drivers. A WEEK BEFORE THE RACE ANOTHER PRACTICE CAR ARRIVED, together with the two Carreras for the Targa entry. (Four cars altogether)...Accompaned by Norbert Singer, two other engineers and seven mechanics. THE LATTER WERE KEPT OCCUPIED BY BARON PUCCI, WHO DAMAGED ONE OF THE RACE CARS AND DEMOLISHED THE NEW PRACTICE CAR. The final entry was composed of the two three-liter race RSRs PLUS THE OLD PRACTICE HACK, POWERED BY A 2.8 LITER SIX." (MY CAPS).

I'm inclined to think that the two Group 5 race cars were R6, 0588 and R8, 0974, which came on from Monza, after the 1000Km race held there on April 25th. The Practice hack was 0001/2, (R5 and R7 had raced at Spa on May 6th, so were not at the Targa, neither were R3 and R4, as they were the "American" cars). The newer practice car that arrived May 6th, with the two race cars, had to be either 0001/R1, (I now do not believe that 0019 was built), or 0002/0020. So 0974 was "demolished" whilst 0001/R1 was given the engine out of R8, 0974, received some riveted on flares on the rear fenders, (see Varunen's photos of the filled holes in the rear fenders of 0001 whilst it was being restored, and given race #9 and was then driven by Haldi/Kinnunen to take an excellent 3rd place. 0588 won and 0002/0020 was put back in shape by the mechanics and, with it, Steckkonig and Pucci finished in 6th place.

After this, 0002/0020 was used at Le Mans by Peter Gregg and Guy Chasseuil, went back to the factory and was used to experiment with ultra-wide wheels, with the rear fenders cut off. After this? Don't know, but probably pensioned off and later went to the museum.

John Starkey

"Time and Two Seats" (Janos Wimpfen)


Says: "The Targa Florio was the only time during the season that the Porsche factory team appeared with three of the light but strong Group 5 versions (of the RSR-Ed). Can # 8 had Carrera regulars Herbert Muller/Gijs van Lennep, #9 with former Porsche 917 star Le Kinnunen ...joined by Swiss privateer Claude Haldi, and the third car was handled by Gunter Steckkonig?giulio Pucci. This last car was supposed to be a GT entry but when Pucci damaged it in practice, the modified T-car (Practice car-Ed) was substituted and raced in the Sports category (class-Ed). ".

Also: A spot of lateral thinking: Porsche, in 1973, like all companies, watched the pennies! I'm now willing to believe that 0020 WAS built, but not, I think, 0019. Why? Well, put yourself in Porsche's place. By the end of 1972, they already had 0020, 0001 and 0002. The latter two had already been built in 1972 as S/Ts and required little modification to make them into early RSRs. Why bother to build 0019 for the Factory team, (when it could have been sold as a profit-making RS 2.7 instead of an RSR that would stay on the Company's books for a year with no financial return), when they already had enough cars, particularly with R5-R8 coming on-stream by April/May 1973?

John

Thanks for your insightful contribution.
I take it with your comments that

"with the two race cars, had to be either 0001/R1, (I now do not believe that 0019 was built), or 0002/0020. "

you are suggesting that there were only 2 cars out of this four number combination?

Could it be that the sparse entry in the RS build records for R1 and R2 actually reflect "work orders" for the rebuilding of Zasada's car and the Strahle car to full RS specs rather than the commissioning of new shells?

On your comments about the homologation of the special pieces (including chassis geometry) I agree that it was done earlier in the year BUT at Monza they were protested against (for the configuration of R6 and R8) by an Italian porsche team and forced to run in prototype class (I have the reference somewhere at home) despite that homologation and the fact that the cars had been running that spec legally at other races during the year.
Given the Targa was on Italian soil and they had lost a protest to Italian authorities a couple of weeks earlier I would have thought they may have had fears of being protested against in group 4 again.

finally, on Ludvigsen's comments what if the second practice car was R1 019?
By then it would have been an old car and being "demolished" by Pucci would explain its disappearance and maybe your "note" about 108 being destroyed?? also IF he is correct to say that "The final entry was composed of the two three-liter race RSRs PLUS THE OLD PRACTICE HACK, " how does that explain about the only thing we seem to agree on that R8, one of the cars from Monza, was destroyed??

So, John, you are now saying that 002 and 020 R2 are one and the same car, and that the Museum's recent response which stated that the Museum car finished 3rd (which would have been the #9 car) is incorrect, and that it really is #107 from the TF.

Gib Bosworth

And finally...or tonight!

Hugh says he can't imagine how 0001/0002 were re-numbered. I think I can:

0841 was marked in factory records as being scrapped on, I think, 25/8/72. This is almost certainly the date that the S/T was re-numbered as 0002 RS/RSR. As this date is AFTER 911 230 0769's rally accident in July, (after which the car was returned to the factory for repairs), I think 0769 must have been re-numbered to 911 360 0001 whilst it was under repair, probably during July/August 1972. As the racing department also had 0841, which was had been "updated" to becoming an RS/RSR, the factory, not unnaturally, decided to re-number this car then to 911 360 0002.

All the above is speculation. We really need to see factory records. I am sure they exist!

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Originally Posted by John Starkey

And finally...or tonight!

Hugh says he can't imagine how 0001/0002 were re-numbered. I think I can:

0841 was marked in factory records as being scrapped on, I think, 25/8/72. This is almost certainly the date that the S/T was re-numbered as 0002 RS/RSR. As this date is AFTER 911 230 0769's rally accident in July, (after which the car was returned to the factory for repairs), I think 0769 must have been re-numbered to 911 360 0001 whilst it was under repair, probably during July/August 1972. As the racing department also had 0841, which was had been "updated" to becoming an RS/RSR, the factory, not unnaturally, decided to re-number this car then to 911 360 0002.

All the above is speculation. We really need to see factory records. I am sure they exist!

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John

That is a very good point that I had not considered and makes perfect sense.

When I wrote that I had been thinking that the Strahle car was numbered when it was started to be built as a M491 project in about April 1972, hence the comment that I could not see how it was given a number after that of the Zasada car which could not have received its number before July.

Obviously from the "scrapped" record it would have continued to have the ST identity throughout that time and the July debut in Austria and it is then likely that your explanation is correct.

Chuck

Wow! that is a great video. I can see how easy it would be to "total" a race car on those roads. I dont think I would like to drive them at any significant speeds - Even if YOU were the driver:D :D

it really puts some of the feats of these guys into perspective