and one more............... as well as the 107 photo that i was trying (badly) to describe
Printable View
and one more............... as well as the 107 photo that i was trying (badly) to describe
no magazine
an Italian targa florio web / forum site that i am still trying to get to grips with
http://targaflorio.forumup.it/
Hugh, those pictures are PHENOMENAL! FANTASTIC find!! Although my Italian sucks, I plan to mine that site for all its worth.
Great job, and thanks for sharing
Excellent thread!
All I can contribute at this stage is that the headlights worked perfectly on race car #8 ;) .
-
........................................
I have this picture which I believe is of one of the Martini Racing cars at the Targa - see the primitive Mary Stuart similar or identical as done at the Targa on the other cars, and dirt on the tyres.
It is NOT race number 8 - that car had SHELL decals on the rear guards - see next pic
It is not race #107 as it has the unique Martini Racing decal on the rear guard as also seen in the wind tunnel shots and besides 107 did not have the Mary Stuart tail. See picture in the race with "martini racing" just visible
It is almost certain not the original 107 (thought to be R8 from Monza) as the Mary Stuart tails seemed to have been added after practice (from the video evidence) and the original 107 was crashed and ceased to participate further before that happened. However that still is a possibility.
It is NOT the car that was # 9 in the race as it was in the race as it had a SHELL decal on the rear bumper and completely different livery on the engine lid although it may have had Bilstein and Dunlop on the rear guard, and the martini stripe going up to the roof is similar (but to my mind NOT IDENTICAL) to this photo.
The #9 photos I have are too indistinct (or my eyes are not good enough) to tell what the decals on the rear guards are on the race #9.
However I would like to suggest that this may be car #9 at some stage in practice - before it had its reported accident.
Mary Stuart tails were only allowed on Sports class cars (not on GT class). The race photos of car 9 show apparent damage (roughly repaired) to the RHR guard - making it look somewhat like one of the pics of the LEO- ZA cars from Paul Ricard. They also show a probable non original engine lid (it looks almost like it has been taken off a road car - there is no martini livery), and the rear bumpers have 3 slots for the exhaust and there is no colour on the license plate panel that is completely inconsistent with the treatment on car 8.(and the Martini cars at other events)
Maybe the picture I have posted IS car #9 before the accident that Pucci is supposed to have had in it (I know another topic as to whether it was Pucci and why would he be in that car anyway:) ) . The accident could have been putting the back / back RHS into something hard, necessitating a new rear bumper, engine lid and RHR guard repair??
The other possibility is that it is AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT car #9 and the car #9 in the race was a second "ring in". I don't think that , so far, there is enough evidence to seriously suggest this and what evidence there is suggests that the car was damaged and repaired.
Any comments / other suggestions ? and does anyone have any background on this top photo?
Jim,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Calzia
Thanks, I have been trawling through various (mostly European) sites looking for photos of the Targa and Tour de Corse back from 1972 and 1973.
I figure there must have been hundreds of thousands of people at those events, and many will have taken photos. Therefore there must be amateur or non published photos around of the cars in question that are taken from a different angle and will show detail that may help explain which car was which. Some of these must have made their way onto web sites in recent years.
So far i have looked thru about 600 pages of TdC photos with no new ones but this set from the Targa has made it worth while.
Interestingly I have found that search engines don't really help much, they cant see well inside forums etc , or at least for photos , probably because the photos are not directly labeled on the site. This makes the search somewhat time consuming but in turn throws up some other interesting material - like all the Strahle 356 photos from the TdC that I posted on the "historical photos " thread
Hi
There is no doubt that none of the cars ran the Mary Stuart tails in practice. (or at least for some of the practice) Maybe that was so they could get some comparative times.
Previous experience at Monza and at Paul Ricard would have given them data on the effectiveness of those tails - especially on a tight windy course like at the Targa.
There was no restrictions on using the tail in Sport class (it was the prototype class) only in GT. According to reports I have read, that is why, when they were protested against at Monza and put into sport class, they put the big tails on.
On the SHELL decal, I don't think they would have covered one sponsors sticker with another's. At other events different team cars sometimes run different minor sponsors. I think it MAY be a way to identify the car. They also ran different shaped backgrounds (roundels) for the race numbers as well - some with round ones some with rectangular ones - I am not sure why - maybe to help in identification. For example at Le Mans in 1973 the 46 car had a round background and the 47 had one rectangular and one round. Also some of the minor sponsors decals were placed in different positions.
From the B&W photo of the 9 car at the pit stop I can't see any evidence of a SHELL decal. I cant make it out properly but the one that is there looks more like Bilstein to me. I suspect the SHELL one would be more visible if it was there.
On the other hand all the photos I have of the 8 car show the SHELL decal in that spot. That suggests that the car in the picture is probably not the 8 car, I am certain it is not 107 - so what is it?
this is the picture that John Starkey was talking about in post 251: the #48 Sonauto car with the big wheels
I cant tell from this what chassis it is and whether it might be 020.
varunan123
the point you make on the shell sticker looking like it is over the tape is good. I also agree that the supports to the added on bits of the tail look the same as on car 8. Maybe it is car 8 at an earlier point - but still at the Targa. They might have had a couple of goes at getting it right.
I think there are no reflectors - it is more likely shadow or a trick of the light.
I got Singers book 24:16 today. Some interesting reading and pics but it does not add a lot here (plenty of scope for a very detailed book on these early cars). I also had a hunt around the bookshop and saw a big pic of 107 in practice trim that I had not seen before in a new book on the Targa (but did not feel up to the $300 for the book just for the one photo that really did not add any new info)
Singer does say that :
- two cars were entered as prototypes and one in GT (We know that all 3 eventuallly ran in proto)
- Pucci was entered in the GT car (107)
- there were 2 bad accidents iin practice
- "one" with Pucci who bent his car very badly against a tree
- they had a lot of work to do to straighten that car and even on race morning they had to use a crowbar to fit a new driveshaft
- the spoilers were to make the cars more stable at high speed and the proto cars had 917 brakes
- it was only after Monza (2 weeks before the Targa) that a policy to enter in proto class (mostly) so as to not to compete with customers started. This had the added advantage of being able to continually develop new parts to homologate for 1974
- the protest from an Italian customer team that made them decide to enter in proto class was due to a decision to replace a teflon rear pick up bearing with a low friction ball bearing (soon before the race)
I have to say , that if asked whether 107 or 9 looks most like a car that had been wacked against a tree and was still being fixed with crowbars - especially in the rear - on race morning, I would say that 9 looks more likely than 107 based on the pictures we have here. And that would be consistent with factory records that 020 was race car 9 and that Pucci had bent it. But why would Pucci have been in 9 to start with? Maybe because Haldi was never going to be in it until the last minute??
Is it plausible to argue:
- R8 was originally entered in GT as 107 and practiced but was totalled by someone (unknown at this stage)
- 020 was originally entered as car 9 with Pucci in Sport was damaged in practice by Pucci but still raced
- 002, the press car, which was down there as a T car (aka Mongrel or E42), was drafted as a second 107 with R8's engine and front bonnet amongst other parts
- Pucci bent 020 but it was fixed in time for the race however by that time he had been put to car 107 with Haldi being drafted for car 9
I think Hugh's summary may capture what did happen at the TF, or pretty close. One additional clue to observe from the pictures is the little rectangular decal in the lower left corner of the rear windscreen. The one on #8 seems shorter and positioned just above the aluminum trim in the rubber, while the one on #9 seems to lap over the aluminum trim slightly and is longer. There is also a small rectangular decal in the right side vent window on some cars, and not on others.
Interestingly, in the Sonauto big tire picture, you can faintly see what looks like that same rectangular decal as on #9, even though the rear flares are gone, mirror, rear deck, etc had been changed. This may be the only identifiable item from the #9 TF RSR that confirms they are the same car. Pretty weak visual evidence though.
Gib
this is a pic of car 62. I believe that it is at the Le Mans test and the numbers match.
That should make it the lead drivers Gijs van Lennep and Herbert Müller. While at least one source I have seen suggests that they were in 020 R2, I find that difficult to believe.
If R2 and the much newer R6 (588) were the 2 cars at the Le Mans test, I cant see the main drivers in anything else but the newest car.
This #62 car looks brand new. It has the updated livery, black trim, smooth "new look" rear guards, wipers parking on the right and no sign of an oil door (although it is almost impossible to see that area well enough)
My guess would be that it is #588 IF that was at the le mans test as most records show.
I don't think I have anything of #61 but will continue to look.
I am giving the whole issue of #9 a miss for a while until I can unravel my thoughts which have been scrambled by all of this ;)
It would be good if we could get some hi-res pics from the car paddock at the Targa because I genuinely can't see enough detail to make a judgment on the points raised by varunan123
Fwiw .........
what source did you use for that datat on cars v race numbers?
I was looking at http://wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/...champ1973.html
and it gives the same numbers as you
however i don't know if i believe it - as the concept of the drivers contracted for the whole season driving an "old' car with th drivers picked up for the weekend in the newest one doesn't make sense to me
I did have another source but I cant find it at present
Also, both cars have the right park wipers. While having similar rear flares the 40 car doesn't appear to have the stuart wing.
here are another couple of pictures of 40 and 41 at spa 1000km in 1973......and interestingly an apparently early pic from a magazine of the factory museum car painted up ALMOST as it is now on a road / magazine test at some stage. it is not exact as it does not have the ELF decal etc but most of the rest appears to be as it is now.
this is supposed to be the car #9 , 020 according to the museum
The 8 and 40 cars show the same black mirror while the 41 has a silver mirror.
that is an interesting point about the lip on the spoiler.
The team was obviously experimenting with all sorts of things race by race (and possibly between cars within a race).
These are pictures of the two team cars at Monza on 25 April 1973, 3 weeks after the Le Mans practice on 1 April and 3 weeks before the Targa on 13 May. However Spa (6 May) was between Monza and the Targa (with Nurburgring following two weeks after he Targa on 27 May).
Car 81 is supposed to be R6 (588) with van Lennep and Muller.
Car 82 is supposed to be R8 (974) with Follmer and Schurti.
Both have the lips on the spoilers at this stage.
What bothers me however is:
I am sure i have read more than one place that due to the tight race schedule the TWO Monza cars went directly to the Targa - ie not to Spa in between.
That would mean that R6 (which all acknowledge was the winner at the Targa) went there along with R8 which may be deuced was the original car 107.
However R6 is also supposed to be at Spa as car 40 in between:confused:
I cant see this to be correct so I think that car 40 at Spa is NOT R6.
Furthermore, on mirrors, R6 at the Targa did not have any external mirror. From the picture here it does not look like car 81 has any either. The #62 Le Mans test car certainly has "flag" mirrors like the 107 and 9 cars at the Targa.(suggesting that it is not R6 but probably 020 R2)
I think it may be worth looking at each of the team cars during this period to see if a pattern emerges with the mirrors. There are at least 5 variations - no mirror; chrome flag mirror (eg 107 and 9 at targa) ; chrome "racing mirror" ; black "racing" mirror; and black flag mirror (eg the LEO ZA rally cars)
The final pictures are the first race of the season - 6 hour Vallelunga 25 March 1973, with car number 9 being R6 (588) Follmer/Kauhsen, and car 8 being R5 (576) with van Lennep and Muller.
Both cars seem to have the extended lip on the spoiler so that, I think, may be something that came on and off depending on front end grip wanted.
Also Neither car seems to have an external mirror which means that all of the pictures that I believe are really of 588 do not have a mirror.
While I have been thinking about this, I re-read the claim from the Museum about the history of its cars
"This is the actual history of the museum-car:
1973 Le Mans, 14th, Gregg/Chasseuil
1973 pre-training Le Mans, 4-hour race:4th, Schurti/Koinigg
1973 Targa Florio, 3th, Kinunnen/Haldi - source factory museum"
If we assume for the minute that it is car 020 there in the museum, the claim that it was the Schurti/Koinigg car at the Le Mans 4 hour (car #61) does not seem credible. The Picture above that does not look like 588 is car 62 and we can see Van Lennep driving it as he had a very distinctive helmet.
IT seems to be the 020 car which means that the Schurti/Koinigg car would have been R6 (588) the eventual Targa winner now with Peter Kitchak, not the "pretend" targa winner.
I wonder if the claim about the Gregg Sonauto car at Le mans (car #48) is equally questionable, especially given the picture of it soon after Le Mans with the very wide rear wheels on the test track
I was almost going to post that, or words similar, last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
To me all the pictorial evidence suggests that BOTH 107 and 9 look like "ring - ins" that were not a part of the normal team and neither look like pictures of cars that are said to be R2 020 earlier in the year, although the "flag" mirror might be one point in common and all that signifies is that the chassis are more likely to be old rather than new and less likely to have been circuit racing recenntly.
varunan123
Thanks. I have been through this source as well. (along with a couple of others that purport to show the chassis numbers of the various cars in each race eg http://wsrp.ic.cz/)
All of them show the entries for the Spa race as R6 (car 40) after being at Monza and before it went to the Targa, and R5 (car 41).
I don't think that this is correct and I think that I what John Starkey posted as well as the two cars from Monza (R6 and R8) are supposed to have gone straight from there to the Targa and, if so, R6 couldn't have been at Spa - especially in the tight time line.
I went through each of the pictures I have for each of those races the other night, looking at telltale signs such as colour of recognition marks on the cars (red yellow green highlights etc which may change from race to race but looking for consistency), type of mirror, colour of mirror (both less likely to change from race to race) centre lock wheels v 5 stud, type of front and rear spoiler, width of rear wheels, wiper position, type of martini livery etc. I also looked at what each of the sources said was the car for each race entry.
While it is not perfect, and the sources that we have been relying on may have indeed been using written factory records as source data, I think the two cars at Spa are wrongly identified and both are different to what is in these sources.
I think that Jim Calzia is doing a book on these so he may have better info.
However I think at SPA on May 6, 1973:
Car 40, George Follmer (USA)/Reinhold Jöst (D), with yellow recognition marks and a black racing mirror, is R5 - not R6 as claimed. After the Spa race R5 was next seen at Nürburgring on May 27 But running in GT +1.6 class (was this a special 2 litre engine – I don’t think I have ever heard about this before). At that race (car 66) it still had yellow recognition colours and the black mirror.
In the races prior to Spa, R5 was at Dijon as car 26 on 15 April, and there it had a black racing mirror but red recognition markings and its first race was at Vallelunga on 25 March 1973 where it had red recognition and no apparent mirrors. In all cases it had the standard bodywork and Martini U shaped colours.
Car 41, Gijs van Lennep / NL Herbert Müller / CH , is credited as being R5, however I think it is R7 (0686) which is not shown as having raced until the 1000 km Nürburgring on 27 May 1973 although it was built in February.
It not only has the chrome racing mirror (not seen before then on any car) but also a full fiberglass rear Mary Stuart tail. Both of these features are seen on car 6 at Nürburgring (which is R7) although the wheels and back guards look wider there than there were at Spa.
One of the reasons I don’t think the “tail photo” in post #292 is at Spa, but is from the Targa, is this full fiberglass tail, not the makeshift one at the Targa (even though the Targa was after Spa). Picture of tail on car 41 at Spa below.
In response to the other post I have the car 8 in your picture as R7 at Zeltwig – the same car as the Nurburgring car 6 (where it had its wipers to the right) and the Le Mans car 46 (where again it has wipers to the right, arrow livery, and chrome mirror). It had centre-lock wheels at Le Mans and Zeltwig, but I don’t have a good enough picture at Nurburgring or Spa to tell. Note it has only one wiper at Zeltwig, even though it is parked on the left. I can’t tell if any of these cars had an opening rear window or not.
This means that BOTH the 9 car and the 107 car at the targa increasingly look the odd ones out, from livery, mirrors, presence of oil door, wipers etc.
I am warming to the idea that the Museum car is R2 (020) AND was the #48 Sonauto car at Le Mans as claimed by the museum and reported by Milou.
Assuming it was also the #9 Targa car for a minute, and it was taken back to the factory and repaired, including 2 new rear quarter panels, the following can be argued:
The first photo of the 48 cars shows what looks to be silver trim around the RHS rear light cluster. This is consistent with the targa photos. More importantly you can see the Le Mans lights for the racing numbers mid way down the rear of the door.
After the race it appears to be used as a test mule for VERY wide wheels - next pic. In this experiment all of the rear quarter panels are cut away but the rest of the car is intact.
Then If you assume it is rebuilt as a museum / promo car (by this time the 1973 season is about over) it is THEN used for magazine articles, including the Paul Frere drive and article.
The next picture shows a close up of him with the car. Note the hole in the door panel at about the correct spot for a Le Mans light. It is present in the other photos but I had not noticed it before thinking it was a mark on the photo. This one is very clear though with the screw holes also visible.
Obviously with all the rear quarter panels being off for the testing, and then the car being "restored", it would have easy to not only replace the quarter panels but also redo the oil tank set up. Indeed that may have been done before Le Mans if there was a fair bit of damage to repair - as the reports seem to indicate.
So the outer panels are not likely to give an indication of the oil tank system by that time.
We know from the museum photos earlier on this thread that some signs of a 72 oil system still exist on the inner panels and door frame. So there is nothing here inconsistent with the Museum car being also the 48 car at Le Mans (in fact it is likely) and that is still consistent with the car originally being based on a 1972 shell.
From the posts above it is also the #62 car at the Le Mans test weekend, and although the picture is not conclusive there does not appear to be an oil door in that picture either. Also in that picture the rear quarter panel looks "normal" for a 73 car and not like the 72 Strahle car.
Finally it is also supposed to be the #2 LEO-ZA-69 Targa Corse car. I can't see an oil door in any of the pictures of that car either.
What if the Targa Florio photo is the odd one out - the car may be R2 BUT what if the accident with the tree that Pucci is supposed to have had with the car necessitated the replacement of the whole RHS rear quarter panel AND / OR the rough grafting on of wider flares? The rough work on the whole of the rear guard is clearly visible in the photo.
It may even be a replacement quarter panel. I think it is important to clearly look at the photos / video of car #9 in practice before the accident as the only ones here are after the accident and repair.
Whether or not John Starkey's speculation that it is ALSO car 002 remains unclear.
I went and found a copy of the book by Busing, Cotton, Davenport, Muller, and Oursler's "PORSCHE 911 in Racing" to have a close look at the ONS Pass that Chuck posted a long time ago for 020 R2 (and I have posted again below.)
After studying the original closely I have no doubt that this is the Press car in the photo. The oil door is clearly visible, as is the bonnet with its unique fuel filler hole (Different to the LEA-ZA cars and the later cars except for one version of 107 at the targa) etc. The only thing of significant difference to the press car is the extended lip on the front spoiler.
Given that the document was dated 16 March 1973, and the 4 hour Le Mans was on 1 April, and by that time R2 looked quite different (the 62 car below), I am wondering if the ONS pass used the photo of the ACTUAL car - ie confirming that 002 was also 020 as shown in the documentation, OR whether they used a REPRESENTATIVE photo of the car only - meaning that 020 and 002 could still be different cars.
Does anyone know? - Gib? Jim?
Also while I was looking at the book - I will have to buy it: it is fantastic - I saw a different photo of car 48 at Le Mans. This clearly shows the area where an oil door would be, BUT equally clearly shows it is NOT there.
So IF 020 is the car pictured on the ONS document, and also the 48 car at Le Mans 3 months later (and between that it did the 4 hour Le Mans trials as 62 and the Targa as car 9) sometime in that time it must have had surgery to change its 1972 oil system for a 1973 one.
While that is not hard in terms of the factory's skills, given the 1972 system does not appear to be there for Le Mans 4 hour, does for the Targa, not again for Le Mans AND the records show BOTH 020 (as car 9) and 002 (as race car 107) at the Targa I am still leaning towards the view there are two separate cars and the 002 photo was used for the 020 ONS document rather than this document actually depicting chassis 020.
I know John Starkey ha a different view but I am struggling to see how they could be the same car.
I think the car in the ONS photo IS the 107 car at the Targa and it IS RS 002, ex a 72 ST, ex the Strahle car, and while it is pictured on the ONS pass as 020 R2, I believe it is a different car to 020.
However I dont know why the ONS document would show a picture of a different car, unless it was a representative photo only. I had thought, until now, that the ONS document is like the FIA document today that shows the actual car - but maybe not.
Perhaps someone out there can clear this up.
I think 020 was built in Oct 72, did the TdC as car #2 in November (it had black horn grills light surrounds etc and "normal" looking rear guards) then MAYBE/PROBABLY the Paul Ricard test, then the Le Mans test and 4 hour as car #62, then WENT TO the Targa as car 9 and then did Le Mans as car 48 before being the museum car
HOWEVER I am still not sure whether or not the car pictured on this thread as car 9 at the targa IS 020.
This is because, apart from this ONS document which I think is NOT 020, I have not seen any other evidence of an oil door on 020 (except in the Targa shots) and the other pictures of cars that are supposed to be 020 do not seem to have oil doors.
Granted some of the pictures do not show the oil door area well, and it would be good to get close ups of TdC car 2, the Le Mans test car, and car 9 at the targa in practice to make sure.
However i have been looking for these for a long time now and fear that they do not exist, in the public arena at least.
I think 002 and 020 R2 are 2 separate cars, and they ran as 107 and 9 respectively at the Targa. Even though no oil door is visible in the TdC pictures of the red/white rally version of 020 R2, the shots of this car at Paul Ricard with tacked on flares is the very best evidence that this car is #9 at the TF, plus the red top and no other Martini sponsorship evidence. I don't think there is another RSR proto that had the tacked flares, and these are very easily spotted in photos.
Besides, there is just no other explanation that makes sense for the indisputable pics of 9 and 107 in the TF. There appears to be too much factory documentation that supports that both cars existed, including Singer's notes. The ONS document (Wagenpass) is clearly the press car, which means it is 002 not 020 R2, so the document data and picture are not consistant. As Hugh suggests, there is probably a good explanation for this, so we should not get too disjointed over it.
Gib
Gib
I am with varunan123 on the "tacked on flares".
I think it is a coincidence that the car has tacked on flares at two different times.
At the Paul Ricard test there were experimenting with suspension placement, wheel width etc so the rear quarter panels would have been played about with a lot.
At the Targa the 9 car had a big accident with a tree. It was obviously damaged around the rear as Singer is quoted as saying they were still trying to fit the driveshaft by using a crowbar on the morning of the race. So I think the tacked on flare there is a result of the accident - not the same as at Paul Ricard.
Also apart from the fact that the factory would be wanting to present professional and well finished cars at all events, there is pictorial evidence of 020 at Le Mans practice with perfect rear flares.
To me the important aspect is that we think that 002 and 020 are two different cars - rather than the same car as John Starkey is postulating. That still does not address his theory that 001 and 019 R1 might be the same car, but I would think it makes it less likely.
I do not believe car 62 shown in earlier photos is 020 R2. It looks to be (as Hugh pointed out) a newly built RSR with all the Martini trim. We still haven't seen the picture of car 61 at the 4 Hr LeMans (right?), and it appears the drivers switched cars from the test to the 4 hr event...right? So it is possible that 020 R2 is car 61, so we don't know what it looked like on that date. Mixing drivers and car numbers in records could be the problem.
I agree that it is very unlikely this car was taken back and forth between a 72 rally car converted to RSR, to new looking 73 RSR, and then taken back to a 72 oil system with paint on the top of the car that matched the Paul Ricard tests, but not the 4 Hr Lemans. If we could find a picture of car 61, maybe we coulde clear this up a little more.
It is possible that the damage to car 9 was the reason for the tacked on flares, but it is also possible they were there all along, and the damage was underneath to the drive train CVs and axles with body damage to the rear panel, muffler area. Without pics or notes, it is hard to tell, and they probably exist somewhere.
Another clue is that the rear bumper on 020 R2 as car 9 still has the rally 3rd outlet, and is narrower than the flares in several shots, which means it was still the rally bumper that didn't match the tacked on flares...and this ties it to the Paul Ricard configuration.
Being changed to the Sonauto car for Lemans is plausible, and I think that is when the oil system was probably changed and clean rear quarters were added before the new yellow paint. So the only scenario that doesn't fit is based on car 62 being 020 R2, and maybe that is wrong. Not seeing the oil door in the pics of 020 R2 in its red/white rally trim are inconclusive I think because the pics just don't show enough sharp detail to make that conclusion.
Gib
I don't believe these have been posted yet:
Curt
No they had not been posted yet (although I had seen the last one of them in a book on the Targa but had not been able convince the bookshop owner to scan them - or justify buying the book at over $300 for just one picture).
I also had not seen the fantastic picture that you just posted on the "random historical" thread of Martini car 62. (and I have reposted here - thanks Curt!!!!!
As I noted on the other thread I am certain that this is R2 at the Le Mans test weekend. I can't see if it is Muller (red helmet with white cross) or van Lennep (Malboro red helmet with white triangle shape) in this latest color picture but it is definitely van Lennep in the black and white one (also posted again for easy reference)
What is so great about the latest picture is that it clearly shows there is no oil door.
If this is R2, which according to factory and race records it is, it appears to be a 1973 shell and it is hard to reconcile this picture with the one of car 9 at the Targa.
The records show that Van Lennep ONLY drove car 62 at this weekend although Muller drove both 61 and 62. The B&W photo shows both van Lennep driving, and as has been noted before a "flag" mirror.
The 61 car that weekend is supposed to be R6, the Targa winner. It was racing before and after the Le mans test and on both sides of that weekend had NO mirror.
While that is not conclusive I think it helps identify car 62 as not being R6 which means that it MUST be R2 IF indeed R2 was the other car there that weekend as the records seem to say.
I agree with you.......... but all the sites I have seen that have race records show that 62 is R2 and it has van Lennep and Muller as drivers.
there is one site http://www.teamdan.com/archive/wsc/1973/73leman4.html
that show the drivers entered and that shows schurti and koinigg as entered but not driving 62 and driving 61.
One other thing that does puzzle me is that the 62 car pictured is running in GT3000 class (Decal "GTS" rather than "S" for sport 3.0 class). All the records I have handy show car 62 in sport 3.0 and car 61 in GT for the 4 hour race and both practicing in S3.0 for the test session.
Maybe that was just tactical to get positioning for the main race and to see if they could pick up 2 class wins by entering one car in each class
It just shows that we need to see a picture of 61 to get more info
You guys lost me about 5 pages ago ..... but I'll bet one of these guys knows the answer :D
Unfortunately we cannot ask the guy on the right........RIP Herbert
Curt do you have a caption of where and when that was taken?
Was it at the le mans test? I can see reference to Le Mans on the sign writing on the track
it looks like they are leaning on a Martini RSR proto that has no sign writing on it roof but you can just see the hint of a dunlop or bilstein decal in the bottom RH corner.
That's probably car #61 at Le Mans, then. I doubt that a local pharmacy would advertise anywhere else.Quote:
Curt do you have a caption of where and when that was taken?
I think we have (virtually) resolved that car 107 at the Targa was a 1972 shell and was a last minute stand-in for the car that crashed beyond repair; probably R8.
I think it is also (almost) agreed that this car is RS 002, which is the press car and before that the ex Strahle ST (and by the looks of it the car pictured on the ONS pass for R2 RS 020 with #3 on it).
I have just discovered a set of decals for a model of #107 that look remarkably accurate, down to the two colored "martini racing" decals that are`hard to see on black and white pictures of the press car.
Included in the decal set is a number plate - LEO ZA 68. This is the plate on the Waldegaard Tour de Corse car from November 1972:eek: and ties this and the TdC thread http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ad.php?t=16839 together.
I can almost make out a number plate on the back of the 107 car in the picture of it attached. The magnification needed kills the detail but I can just see "ZA". I have no reason to believe the decal is wrong - but would love to know the source of the information used to create the decals.
That raises two possibilities:
Firstly the Waldegaard "68" car at the TdC was RS002, and after its accident there it was repaired and repainted in Martini colors to be launched as the press car, and eventually used as the 107 car at the Targa (instead of the "history" in the RS book amongst other places of it being used on the "panzer " test track. This means there is a possibility of it still existing now. or;
Secondly the Waldegaard car at the TdC was another ex ST, and did get used on the "panzer track" and eventually as a recce car for a safari rallye (and probably perished there) and the factory transferred the plates to RS 002 when it was launched as the press car.
I would like to believe the first scenario which, if correct, would suggest that BOTH of the ex TdC RS / RSR's competed in the Targa as the other TdC car (Larrousse's LEO ZA 69) is supposed to be RS020 R2 which ,in turn, is supposed to be car #9 at the Targa.
Hugh:
Interesting find on the Mini Champs decals with the LEO ZA 68 plate. I have the model, and am posting a picture. Your hypothesis muddies the water with the 107 car...but I do agree that there does appear to be a LEO ZA plate on the 107 car at the Targa in that cornering shot. I tried to see it in the video, but can't quite make it out, but there is some kind of plate visible.
Regardless of this plate, I think the 107 car is very consistant in photos from the red Strahle version in July 72 to the Targa. Turn lenses have silver trim (both LEO ZA cars have black), and the rear flares are very distinctive...and that little mud flap on the rear of the wheel opening is there all the way through this period. The LEO ZA rear flares look different on both cars, and I doubt that the original Strahle flares would have been re-attached and lenses changed back to silver after the TdC efforts.
I don't have any good explanation why the LEO ZA plate would be on 107, but there must be one. Maybe the answer is that the bumper was replaced (but not that mud flap) for some reason with an old spare from the LEO ZA car that wrecked with the plate still attached.
And I still feel that car 62 from LeMans is NOT 020 R2...again because it is so different from the Targa car 9. There are enough inconsistances in the records of 61 & 62, and we need a good picture of 61 to say for sure. I think photos of cars with unique details are a better source of reality than records...when they conflict.
Gib
The black trim, and 73 "look" on the LEO ZA cars has always had me thinking they were newly built or rebuilt. Yes it does mitigate against the "68" car being the Strahle car and then later the press car - ie the "68" car being RS002.Quote:
Originally Posted by letsrollbabe
On the number plate, one possible explanation is that the press car needed to be road registered as a part of its general duties, and the "68" car did not need to continue to be road registered, so they transferred the plates to the press car when that was created.
Regardless of the background it is an unusual circumstance to see a car in a (non rally car) world championship event that has the appearance, at least, of being road registered. I suspect that might be the only occasion in the 1973 season that this was the case. A great ad for "race Sunday sell Monday"
You can catch the Strahle #5 car accelerating out of the pits after around 4 mins here:
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great video
some fantastic footage apart from the strahle car
i wish I could capture good stills from this sort of footage
Hugh, the above vidio is an excerpt from the new Ruf dvd. Contact Ruf and get a copy. The interviews of Alois while he is driving the cars is priceless, the engine sound of his 901 (300 037) bring a smile to me.
Hugh - I'm fairly certain that was at the LeMans test and may have been from a series of photos of cars that attempted, but did not, qualify for the race. Would that make sense?
that would make sense but the car you showed and those two guys (muller and van Lennep) certainly qualified
i was interested to see if the other martini car (61) was shown or there were other angles of the car
Hi
great pick up on the holes for the flag mirror.
I am pretty certain that this car did do Le Mans with the holes in the door for the lights as I posted above.
The other "Le Mans" feature it has when being tested by Frere are the small lights on the front quarter panels near the lights. See pics of the Frere test and the 48 car at Le Mans for comparison. All the factory cars (46, 47 and 48) has identical lights at Le Mans.
So I think I accept it was the 48 car, then it did the test track with big wheels and the rear quarters cut off to fit them so when it was put back together for the museum that was all new metal and if there had been an oil door it would have gone then .
I don't think this was the "8" car from Zeltwig. That is recorded as being R7 and anyway at Zeltwig the "8" car id not have any telltale le mans signs that are still on this car when being tested by Frere.
The other thing is that the 8 car at Zeltwig had a central martini stripe but NOT an arrow - it had livery like the original press car.
Therefore I am willing to agree to the factory story that this was not a replica of any particular car but a "representation" of the cars over the year.
I do not believe that ANY car ran with the exact livery and number combination represented by the museum car although the 46 car did carry that livery (including the Porsche crest) at Le Mans.
I am with you there :)Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
also on the question of the visibility of oil doors I have been noticing IF it is there, the panel gap, and thus the ease of identifiaction, is much more than for the door gap - so IF you can see the door gap, and not the oil door, it is very likely that there is no oil door.
Also I am yet to be convinced that the Tour de Corse version of R2 had an oil door or looked anything different to a "new" 73 RS (except for ST-like front guards which are also RSR type flares), so I would agree with you that the "odd one out" appears to be car 9 at the targa - or at least the photos we have been looking at. And I think it needs to be proved that R2 was not at the TDC as car #2 rather than it was.
So far as history after Le Mans, I am as comfortable as I can be that the 48 car at Le Mans was a factory prepared car (the small lights at the front are a giveaway - they are identical to other factory cars 46 and 47 and do not appear on any other Porsche I have pictures of at that race or at any other race in 1973). I am comfortable it is also the 48 car ar the test track with the very wide wheels.
Following that I am convinced there is enough pictorial evidence to show it was then the Frere car shown here and also the car in the colour pic on post 289 with what loooks like a journalist driving it. The livery is slightly different to the museum car now, and the frere car, and the small le mans lights are still there on that pic.
I am relatively confident that this is STILL the car at the museum even though it has ovviously been restored since then, and some small details have changed (le mans lights , holes in door for mirror and lights, shape of arrow and porsche crest decal on front bonnet - changed between the Frere test and the colour pic but the same as today, wipers, extra non period decals now on it etc)
But it has not gotten us far with whether it is car #9 at the targa..............
Going right back to Jim Calzia's quote about cars at the targa on post #92 from Jantke that was written at the time ....
"Manfred Jantke wrote in the August 1973 Christophorus that a training car (Mongrel) was stationed in Cefalu three weeks before the race; Singer and the Martini Racing Team arrived on May 9 with three race cars: R2 (9113600020), R6 (9113600588), R8 (9113600974), and one training car E42 (9113600002)." (my emphasis)
It certainly leaves open the question of two cars available for substitution - RS 002 for R8 as car 107 and the "training car (Mongrel)" for R2 as car 9:confused: . that would certainly fit with photographic evidence if not with official written records.
Don't we have to keep digging for photos and video of car #9 in practice as well as in the race at the Targa to advance this any further?
Probably stupid and info you allready have seen, but have you studied all the 72/73 TF videos on Youtube? Link to one of many:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfVeBqtZ3JY
Thank you for all the info you guys are digging up.
John
I am not sure about that.............
Isn't this a form to identify that this car is a group 4 car - ie special GT of which 500 identical cars must be made.
The regs seem to say that:
d) Identical: by "identical" cars are meant cars belonging to one and the same fabrication series and which have the same coachwork(outside and inside), same mechanical components and same chassis (even though this chassis may be amalgamated with the coachwork in case of a unitary construction)."Mechanical components" include all parts for the propulsion, suspension, steering and braking system and all accessories whether moving or not which are necessary for their normal functioning (such as for instance, electric accessories).
By chassis is meant the structure of the car which holds mechanical components and coachwork together, and includes any structural part which is located below the horizonta! plane passing through the centre of the wheel hubs."
and about the document:
"Recognition forms: all cars recognized by the FIA shall be the subject of a descriptive form called recognition form on which shall be entered all data enabling identification of the said model.
To this effect only the standard recognition forms and standard additional form for "normal evolution of the type" and "variant" approved by the FIA shall be used by all ACNs.
The production of the forms at scrutineering and/or at the start may be required by the promoters who will be entitled to refuse the participation of the entrant in the event in case of non-production.
In case of any doubt remaining after the checking of a model of car against its recognition form, the scrutineers would have to refer either to the maintenance booklet published for the use of the.make's distributors or to the general catalogue
in which are listed all spare parts.
It will rest with the competitor to obtain the recognition form and, if need be, the additional forms concerning his car, from the ACN of the manufacturing country of the vehicle.
Whenever the scrutinizing of a car shows the complete compliance of it with its recognition form, in as much as is required for the group in which it is admitted, there
is no need to worry about its year of fabrication.
Therefore, the chassis and engine numbers which may be mentioned on the recognition form are not to be taken into consideration."
This document identifies the car as a special GT car (Group 4), and gives all the relevant homologation particulars and identifies its chassis number. As all the cars are supposed to be identical, wouldn't it be a reasonable expectation that one photo of a representative car was used for all ONS forms for similar cars??
or is that not how it worked?
Who out there can tell us for sure?
varunan123
Also you stated
"The legend on the ONS document says rallye car converted to special GT ready to race-suggesting 0020 was 0002."
But doesn't the explanation that R2 was a rallye car at the TdC for Larrousse and then converted to a track car following the Paul Ricard testing also fit this explanation without 002 being involved?
or am I missing something here?
A major problem with 002 and 020 being one and the same is then which car is #9 at the TF, and besides other documented comments that would keep them as two separate cars. What other RSR would there be for #9 if it isn't 020? If #107 is 020 then could E42 as #9 be Frank's former RSR that was restored by Kevin Jeanette? (Are we into Kennedy conspiracy theory now?)
Quote from post 105
016
i 'm pretty sure rs#016 was used as press car then there was an accident in practice of the targa and it was pressed into service for the race;the car beneath it's paint had original factory martini strips,it was built in 7/72 with a
'72 shell.I don't know were it is today,I SOLD IT TO KEVIN JEANETTE,I think he sold it to phil bagley
__________________
frank gallogly #264
Gib
Dear Hugh,
"This document identifies the car as a special GT car (Group 4), and gives all the relevant homologation particulars and identifies its chassis number. As all the cars are supposed to be identical, wouldn't it be a reasonable expectation that one photo of a representative car was used for all ONS forms for similar cars??
or is that not how it worked?
Who out there can tell us for sure?"
You are looking at the "Wagenpass" of 911 360 0020. Each race car in Germany had it's own ONS Wagenpass, (Logbook), stating it's identity, what group it ran in, with photos, and then a list of the races it did, together with a signature by ech race entry of the scrutiner.tech official of the ONS attending the race. I have seen many of them!
One interesting by product of this system: When :"foreigners", bought race cars from Germany, they didn't often know about this special logbook nd the previous owner kept them; most did so innocently but there are some "replicas" in Europe, complete with Wagenpasses as the real cars are in America!
John Starkey
thanks John for that clear explanation.
I knew that the cars each had their own logbook with all the details but was not sure whether or not in a team of supposedly identical cars like the factory team they might not use one photo for a number of documents.
However the important point which you have clearly stated is that IF the wagenpass for 020 is around (which you would think the factory would have given it was a factory team and the car has never lt factory ownership) it would be an independantly signed record of each race it was in.
One would have thought that this was the source of the factory museum information which Milou posted.
As a further hypothesis, IF the wagenpass for 020 was issued in March 73, as a Special GT car, following the homologation of the cars, there must have been a previous one in another guise to cover its previous life as a rallye car at the TDC and anything else that it did in between.
Isn't that likely to be the reference to "previously a rally car" and also why the TDC is not mentioned on the information from the museum?
Also given the Martini team was a factory team, and they were meticulous in keeping records, isn't it likely that the real identity of car #9 and car #107 is as the factory states ?
.........................
I agree Curt Fantastic pictures!! :D :D
One thing that I have been meaning to ask.
What is the sticker on the RHS quarter window of car 9 and car 8? Is it a scrutineering tag for the Targa or something else special for that event?.
I have not seen it on any other photo of any other martini race car in 1973.
Interestingly it is on both car 8 and car 9 BUT not on the second version of car 107 which we know to be a replacement car.
IF it was something affixed to the car at the start of the event it could be argued that the pic of car 9 is of the car entered - not of a replacement car and thus "what you see is what you get" with respect of the oil door.
Hugh:
A good point. Yes, I should have thought that there would have been Wagenpasses issued for both 0001 and 0002. Where are they?
Another point: Whislt talking with Varunan 123 this morning, he asked if the scrutneers/officials at the 1973 Targa Florio would have asked to see the Wagenpasses of ALL the Works Porsches entered. Certainly, they would have inspected the passes of the three cars entered in the race but it's probable that they did not inspect those of the practice "T" car/cars. So it is entirely possible that the factory are repeating which cars were ORIGINALLY entered for the Targa but NOT the real, final result, which included at least one substitute car.
The recent photo of the #9 car clearly shows the hammer marks on the recently beaten out right rear fender and what appears to be a new hood and front bumper. Presumably this is the car that, according to Norbert Singer: "Needed a crowbar to fit a new drive shaft on the morning of the race".
John Starkey
another pic of the sticker on the car 8 window........it looks like there is some writing and a stamp of some sort
The sticker is:
"Automobili Club Sicilia" The badge of the car club of Sicily.
John Starkey
Totally different shapes on the 'Mary Stuart' tail extensions .... are they different because they were quickly handcut and tacked on? Or were they purposely trying different shapes?
Curt
I think the shapes are different because "they were quickly handcut and tacked on" as they had proper filled in (by the look of it fibre glass) at Spa and Monza before the targa. They were obviously experimenting with the shape from Dec 1972 on at Paul Ricard etc and by April seem to have about the final shape determined.
varunan123
I don't think there is a connection between the "Automobili Club Sicilia" decals on the cars (thanks John for telling us what they are) and the stickers on the windows.
I think that the ACS decals are either a requirement for cars in the event, or a recognition by the team of the ACS which was probably the organization under which the event was officially run. I have not checked to see if other cars ran that decal or not.
Regardless I don't think that , IF the window sticker is a scrutineering document, it would matter whether the cars were ACS members or not.
It MAY be a temporary registration document to allow the cars on public roads or some other such "official" document.
I was just interested if anyone knew what it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Starkey
Hello John
you gave me a doubt, i was told, when i started this idea 3 years ago (a martini replica), that ACS was the "swiss automobile club"
a swiss confirmed me on the french forums
it seems that is.....
http://www.acs.ch/ch-de/index.asp
RSR driver Herbert "Herbie" Muller was swiss.
Maybe thats why it has a swiss ACS (sponsor) sticker on front fender.
I agree that neither 9 nor 107 have badges on the engine grill. 8 does as does 62 at le mans 4hour as you say. I looked at earlier years cars and saw virtually no badges but did see a 2.4 on a kremer ST
i couldn't find a pic of the TdC cars and the pic of car 48 at le mans is not quite at the right angle to be certain but it does not appear to have a badge
so i don't know what consistency there is.
On the mirror I agree the car 9 flag looks smaller than the car 62 one - but it could be an illusion - on the other hand I have enough trouble telling them apart in real life - so wjhat would I know:)
here is the 48 car at Le Mans
I am not sure if the angle is quite right to show it if it was there
but it looks like it is not
yes but wouldn't the factory have put it on in one of their "restorations" anyway if it was not there?Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
RS#12 the yellow "2.7S" in the RS book has a 2.7 badge, RS 13, a blue one, has the badge but it was restored in the 90's so a badge may have been added if it was not there, RS #15 with the blue prototype lettering had a badge, RS #16 was the Paris show car and had a badge, RS #17 was a press car and it had a badge (pp106 of the RS book)Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
Varunan123:
I had also thought about the fact that a rally S would have had limited slip, and thus not needing it listed as a new option. How do we explain the aux. heater though, except the intended use as a cold season rally car. I don't think any RSRs had this option.
I still can't come up with a way to reconcile 020 and 002 being the same car with the TF cars #9 and #107 because we know 107 was 002, but if it was really 020, then it is the museum car, and which car is #9 (The museum thinks their car is #9)? Also, 107 had the same rear flares from the Strahle days to the press car to the TF (with that little mud flap) still present, so it doesn't fit that this car was at the TdC as one of the LEO ZA cars I don't think.
I think #9 at the TF was 020, while it had been Larrousse's car at the TdC and was reconfigured as a wider rear flare track car as shown several times in this thread. #107 was 002, and was E42 in Singer's notes. What documentation or photos disputes this conclusion.
Gib
I have been thinking about the sticker on the quarter window of car 8 and 9 shown in the pic and why it was not on car 107 or other cars in other events.
I now think it may be a temporary registration sticker.
The Targa was run on public roads and was more like a rallye than circuit event.
Even the 908's etc had registration plates (love to try that here!) and 107 had the plates as well (LEO ZA 68) so it did not need temp plates.
However the other cars would not have been road registered. They still give track cars temporary registration papers here in events like Targa Tasmania so it could be the same in this case. The factory cars all had similar stickers on them the last time I saw them here for targa tas.
as an aside I was trying out Curt's trick forum searcher (see off topic) and I ran across a dutch forum with pictures of the museum car and commentary about this post.
I was interested in this picture of the sticker in the rear window saying R2. (i am not sure what the other letters mean)
I am sure it was not there originally......probably added in a factory restoration ..........(so they could keep track of which car it was :p )
I just moved from the netherlands to Australia, so I hope I have this pictures on the laptop I brought with me....:(
I'll check this evening. They're quite high resolution pictures, so there could be more stuff we initially missed.
Reading the last Esses, it seems that Van Lennep is alive and well, shouldn't someone someone sit down with him and ask him what he remembers about the 73 Targa? I gather he will be in Florida for the Porsche meeting this weekend.
I seems that we're grasping at straws now and have not moved forward with any hard evidence, perhaps he could help?
But, what would you ask him?
I mean, I don't think people that raced 30-odd years ago where too bothered with details like decals, type of mirrors or even chassisnumbers.
I was going to ask him about the picture posted of him a couple of pages ago, but I only had time to have him sign my 1:43 917 model when I met him the other day....:D
I would ask him about the crashes and Pucci....and how many cars they were on the spot, and when was he assigned the number 8 car....
Sorry, there are no more pictures then the ones I put on the dutch forum already.Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick911
hmmm .... 4 cars in the Porsche pit: Looks like 2 Nr. 107s - one with a different hood stripe and number orientation.
Curt
What A Great Find!!!!!
now to try to make sense of it :eek: :confused:
Is it really another "107" in the pits? i can't read the numbers.
It is a pity the people are standing in front.
Is this a picture from the very beginning of practice??
It looks like the T-car (rs 002 ) that is the 107 next to "8" and maybe the car in between it and what looks like "9" (although I cant read that properly either) is "108" the R8 (RS 0974) that was wrecked in practice.
Or were there really 2 cars stickered up as "107" at the same time and that is why we saw the 2 versions of "107" in those videos??
Another thing, for someone with better eyes or monitor than me, is is that "Martini Porsche " at the front of the bonnet on the car at the far left (presumably car 9). ??
If so does that car have the "U" shaped livery like car 8? That livery certainly was not on car 9 at race time but the white blur on that car looks a lot like the front of car 8:confused:
I think this is a picture before R8 crashed, which would be the 3rd from right car with the slanted number 107, even though we can't really see the number. I think this slanted 107 numbered hood is the only car that had a slanted number of the cars that were at the TF. The far left car is #9, with a plain hood but with a white looking rectangular shape on the lower hood, as seen in a better picture at the turn.
The first 2 cars from the right are the winning #8, and the 6th place #107, with its original hood, before the switch with the slanted 107 hood. I don't think there is anything new here, just a very interesting shot of events during practice.
Gib
I guess I'll throw in these Rennsport photos .... great car! :)
BTW: I liked the door opener. Interesting alternative to the usual leather strap.
Guys - I may have found a source for previously unseen photos. Waiting for reply.
Stand by :)
varunan123
Following the paperwork like this is an interesting approach and raises a number of points, some which have been considered earlier in the thread (but not resolved).
I would agree that it is likely that a new ONS pass was created every time there was a substantial change to the specs of a car so that it accurately represented the car at the time for eligibility and race scrutiny reasons.
That is why the 906 one would have been reissued as a spyder.
In the case of R2 one pertinent factor would have been the fact that the RSR was not homologated as a group 4 car (special GT - 500 cars ) until late Feb / early March 1973.
Therefore this particular Wagenpass as a special GT could not have been issues until then even though R2 was made / remade? in October 1972 in time for the TdC.
For information a copy of the homologation papers for Group 3 series GT (1000 cars) from April 9 is attached. The Group 4 Special GT one would have been a separate document issued a month or so earlier.
That raises the question (that has been asked earlier in the thread) that what Wagenpass did the car run under at the Tour de Corse? The caption in the book from which this photo was taken alludes to to the fact that it had been converted from the rallye version (and presumably new papers issued as a result).
Was it running with a RS "sportwagen" (25 cars completed) Wagenpass, as the 1973 Daytona cars were forced to, due to the fact that the special GT homologation had not come thru at that stage?
Or was it running with an ST Wagenpass before March because it had an ST as its earlier iteration?
Or was it running as an evolution of the 2.4S from previous years, (ie an ST) as the ability to do that was in the design parameters when the RS project was created.
Or, finally, did the Tour de Corse allow un-homologated cars to run in prototype class as the 911R did in the Tour de France?
Also assuming that 020 is 002 and before that was 911 230 0841, where is the Wagenpass it had originally and what happened to that? Did the authorities that originally issued them destroy the original papers when a car changed enough to have them reissued?
In some other jurisdictions, a car's "logbook" records the changes in spec and provides a more continuous history.
A second point that has been raised before by Gib is if this is correct how could car 002 and car 020 both be at the Targa? I won’t pursue that one here.
One interesting angle to following the paperwork, and assuming a record was kept of change in specifications, cancellation and reissue of ONS papers just like registration documents, etc WHERE ARE THE OFFICIAL COPIES or the master records??
Surely the document issued with the car must have a counterpart somewhere in some official organization, and that place must keep all the old papers from the different iterations of a particular car.
Does such a source exist? If so is it available to access or protected by more privacy laws than the Kardex?
Hi
I used to have more information / scans of papers, and some hard copies, but I have not been able to find them recently :(
I think the reference to October 1972 on the papers is when the series production began and 9 April 1973 is when the 1000 was reached, allowing this document to be issued. Note it is interesting that the RS book says that April 9 is also the date that production moved to series production undercoating, windscreens, etc as the homologation number had been achieved.
There is no doubt that the group 4 homologation was issued before this in late Feb (can't find the date at present) and I believe it was a similar paper but the date filled in one line up against the 500 produced.
It is interesting however that the photo used on the papers I posted was an original one of RS #15 (?) produced back in July 1972 with the prototype lettering that was used on the original sales brochure.
So far as 001 v 011 goes, the RS book and other sources state that this was to allow existing race cars to be "Updated / upgraded" to latest RS specs and use the numbers left vacant.
However, apart from 001 and 002, I have not heard of this happening. Also that, and the fact that the "R" cars did not seem to go thru the weigh bridge / conversion process, means that the 1000th car built for homologation purposes had a number like 1035 or something that high.
I would have thought that all cars that were being raced would have some sort of official identity papers. Granted Zasada's may have had Polish papers but the Strahle cars would be running ONS papers as would the factory cars, including those that were road registered on plates like S - AK or LEO ZA.
I hope someone on the board with more information on this can add to this aspect.
If the wagenpass document for 020 is accurate, then the RS Book and factory records are incorrect (maybe they were based on the same error in the records from the factory) because the car pictured on this wagenpass is well documented as #107 at the TF. And don't the TF records indicate that 020 finished 3rd and not 6th? This would mean that the museum car is #107. Then the question is, was #9 RSR 002, since Singer's records or factory records show both 002 and 020 being at the TF...or maybe these should be questioned too. Then, what happened to #9 if it didn't go to the museum, and where are its wagenpass records?
I think the evidence weighs heavily that the wagenpass document pictures and vin are not compatible, but I also think that with 3rd party verification from an unbiased inspector it should be accurate.
Another factor is that the Strahle prototype (which became the #3 press car and later #107 at the TF) was created much earlier (June or July/72) and would likely have been renumbered 002 rather than 020. And this car was not at the TdC race because both cars there had narrower rear flares, and the unique look of the Strahle prototype/#3 press car/#107 is unchanged throughout the period from July 72 to the TF in May 73.
We need to find more complete evidence of what happened to either #9 or #107 after the TF, depending on which one is now in the museum.
Gib
That scenario would mean that at the TF #9 was 002...so why would the factory renumber from 002 to 020, and then give 002 to another car? Maybe the Strahle car stayed 230 0841 until it was renumbered 020 in Nov. 72, and 002 was originally assigned (or renumbered) to the car that was #9.
That 020 wagenpass document really undermines up a lot of other documentation if it is valid.
Gib
[QUOTE][so why would the factory renumber from 002 to 020/QUOTE]
because they were cheating
because they needed another car
because they could make money off the deal
Going back to this photo of the pits in 1973 again this is the caption from Curt's original source for the photo:
"1973 from left: n°9 Kinnunen_Haldi; n°107T and 107 Pucci-Stekkonig; n°8 Muller-VanLennep "
Given all the other material produced by this person (in Europe) and his obvious knowledge of the event and unbelievable amount of photos with accurate captions, I would say his descriptions of which car is which in this photo is likely to be accurate.
However I wonder if the "n°107T" and "107 Pucci-Stekkonig" are transposed and the real T-Car (which became the race car) is the one sitting next to car #8?
I am not sure what else to make of this.............
The wagenpass photo for the Strahle/Press Car/107/ shows the front bumper with a spoiler extension, and it is not on the car at the TF, so the front bumper has been changed...maybe more than once. I think the pix in the RS book shows the red Strahle car with 2 different looking front bumpers.
The rear bumper on #9 really shows the rally set up bumper that doesn't match the tacked on flares, which were added to Larrousse's ST from the TdC to "transform the rally car to a track car" per the RS book.
Gib
I have information that the 4th Martini car was Nr. 108 and in the GT class but was a DNS. This is probably the car in the pit photo that is blocked.
A few more here, but nothing remarkable. Still waiting on some others ....
Varunan123:
In your scenario of 002 and 020 being one and the same, car 107, does this cause a conflict in the records? The factory and TF records both indicate that Haldi/Kinnunen finished 3rd in #9 (factory says 020), while Steckkonig/Pucci finished 6th in 107. So are the factory records wrong on which car, 9 or 107 is at the museum?
Gib
In all of these pages, I don't think the most common photo of all has yet been posted :confused: Here it is, post-race factory foto, I believe.
Curt
what about this one?
...........from the RS`book
but it is "only' of #8 so was not of use in trying to sort out the debate on #9 and #107
I haven't read the entire thread here, but it's well known and documented that the LeMans painted red 917 in the factory museum is indeed a fake. The real LeMans winner was owned by Vasek and then sold to Japan, and then recently made it's way back to the states a few years ago. Serial numbers at one time were swapped with the Martini livery Sebring winner, but that nonsense has since all been corrected.
I'm not sure which car was at the Rennsport Reunion, the real one or the fakey.
-Wayne
I tend to agree with varunan123 on this one :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
apart from the points he raised, the pics of car 8 at targa practice when it had the standard ducktail, shows all white martini racing on the roof rather than the white and blue of this pic. That livery was run at vallelunga though.
Attached is a copy of part of the group 4 - special GT homologation papers.
The effective date, as seen on page 1 was March 1 1973, although the application date is shown as November 1972 and the date of the information and photos being checked at the manufacturer's premises was 27 October 1972.
I have attached some of the pages of pictures in the document that have particular relevance to this thread.
They include the pictures used for the fuel system - you can see the Strahle car was used for the through the bonnet filler
Also the ex Waldergard ST from the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally - S AK 1337, (or at least a car with the same registration plates and colour scheme), which was also used for the recce for the Tour De Corse rallye, was used for pictures of the front and rear flares and the front mounted oil cooler and probably for one of the pictures of the fuel tank set up.
So it looks like in late October 1972 the ex Waldegaard ST from the 1972 Monte and Swedish rally was being passed off for homologation purposes as an RS / RSR (group 4 RS) along with the Strahle car.
We know the original number of the Strahle car 911 230 0841, and believe it was then renumbered as RS 002 and used as the press car and then probably car 107 at the targa.
We know that the Zasada car 911 230 0769 became RS 001;
But I don't think I have proof of the chassis number of the Waldegaard 1972 Monte car .............or what happened to it. The Monte Carlo sister car S AK 1336 is alive and well in Europe at present.
Singer's book 24:12 in a caption of a photo of it on page 53 suggests that THIS CAR (S AK 1337)was not only used as a Recce car for the 1972 TDC but after the Rallye "this car was taken straight to the Paul Ricard track to be transformed for circuit racing"
Maybe I am jumping to the wrong conclusion here BUT it could be inferred that:
THIS car, a 1972 ST that did the Monte as car #15 for Waldegaard (and the Swedish rally);
Did the practice / recce for the 1972 TDC;
Then was USED as one of the cars in the 1972 TDC;
Then went to the Paul Ricard testing - suggesting it is another candidate for RS 020 or R2 in the TDC, and later could be in the Targa along with 002:
However against this is, while:
It was used in the homologation photos for the group 4 RS on 27 October - days before the TDC - and looks like an RS ...
Why would they change the registration? Why not leave it as S AK 1337? - unless there was a decision to use the "LEO ZA" numbers for all the RS cars?
Also in the homologation papers it looks like it has 1972 silver horn grills and light trim but only a week later at the TDC the cars had black horn grills and light trims.
I know that this is easily changed and may have been for publicity reasons to achieve the 1973 "look" but then why change back for car 9 or 107 for the Targa? But they could not have changed the 1972 oil filler that it had along with its sister car.
Anyway I think this is one more possibility to put into the mix.......
a copy of the photo from Singer's book of TDC practice and a blow up of the picture from the homologation papers
Hi varunan123Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
It is hard to see on the scans. i tried to PDF the papers but they are too big to email let alone post.
the pics are a bit misleading on colour. On my copy they are definitely chrome mirror and light surrounds, and look like chrome horn grills but the lighting makes this unclear and they may be black horn grills.
The headlight rims and aux lights are definitely black- but are so on S AK 1337 at the Monte (see pic) and on most factory rallye cars of around that period - I suspect to reduce glare.
You can just see the edge of the 1337 number plate and the black light pod in the second photo from the TDC practice
I think we have discussed this problem with chrome v black on photos before - scanning and then reducing the photos seems to exacerbate it when they are black and while photos
another close up
the picture quality deteriorates compared to my original where i can just make out the registration plate
It is hard to tell from the scans (and not that easy with the actual pictures) but the picture of the back of the car at the TDC practice does show a white roof. you can see the white bonnet and roof better on the other picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
on the first picture the roof of the other car against the wall is also white but looks like sun glare in the scan
I am not sure what that is on the front bonnet of the homologation document.Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
I will try to scan a hi res copy and email it to you
Another of Nr. 107:
Varunan123:
Did the picture you posted on the 73 Monterey Historic thread of the restoration project showing the Martini stripes come from Gunnar Racing? The grease pencil VIN does look to end in 002. This could clear the mystery about what happened to 002 after the Targa. But if this is now supposed to be 017, it doesn't seem to fit with the Strahle history of 002, which had 002 as an RSR prototype in red at the same time when 0017 was issued to the press dept in white paint with the positive Carrera script in July 72 according to the RS book. Why would 0017 have the positive Carrera script this late in the model year if it had been through another life as a race car? Seems the Sales Dept. would have insisted on the negative script by the summer of 73.
Gib
What would be an explanation for the 002 grease pencil number on the dash of a car that was stamped 017? The Martini stripes on the cowl along with the 002 grease pencil number would seem to tie this body to the Strahle/press car #3 and then as 107 at the TF. Another mystery it would seem.
Gib
After taking another look at that grease pencil number, it does appear it could be 1030202, which would be an early production number for 017. Another factor, since 002 was a renumbered 72 S which had a dash installed, I doubt that the factory would have pulled the dash off to pencil in another number under it. I doubt if the production numbers were restamped on the front of the lower dash area when the front boot number was redone. Varunan123, does 001 have a 72 production number (102xxxx) or 73 (103xxxx)?
We can let 0017 stay out of this thread to keep the confusion to a minimum, sorry about that.
Gib
Hi guys
I agree that 017 is not a part of this equation. However for the record this is a picture from the RS book showing it at the time of a road test. Note there are no sports seats at this stage (or in the build specs either). Also note the drilled discs. Was this to help with he spirited driving in the road tests?
As Raj noted there was a blue one as well with prototype lettering. That was RS015, which was a sport version (compared to the red one being a touring version.)
A picture of the blue one from the RS book is also attached.
There is no sign of an oil door on either.
PS I think the picture Porsche, or someone, else supplied to Gunner Racing shown above in post 439 is the car with blue graphics - 015 - as it seems like a M471 rather than a M472 from the trim on the bumpers and lack of trim under the Carrera graphics .... but we don't want to start another debate on such things here , do we? :p :)
Yes
even though it is in B&W , the car looks like the blue graphics one as it seems to be a M471 from the trim etc. Given that there were ever only supposed to be 2 of them with prototype graphics and one (RS 017) being a M472 and the other (RS105) being a M471, I think calling it as 015 is a pretty safe bet
PS
assuming that the car on the homologation papers LEO ZA 63 is RS 015 this is what its engine compartment looked like
no sign of a 72 set up there!
I was just looking at some other photos of the 73 Targa on a European site and found this!!
if you look carefully in the background of this picture of the Brescia Corse Tipo 33TT3 Alfa in the pits at the 1973 Targa you can see an "RSR" with the race number 108 in the same style as the "second" 107 and registration plates LEO ZA 60 (or it looks like 60 maybe it is an 80).
This car seems to have a "T" signifying it is a training car only and also seems to have only a conventional single exhaust signifying it does not have an RSR engine.
The Martini graphics are just visible enough to suggest they are the same treatment as the original car 107 (and the rear of car 107 in the race) - center stripe splayed out at the ends.
Car 107 had the plates LEO-ZA 68 car #9 and #8 did not have plates, as they had the small sticker on the front quarter window signifying temporary registration. I would have thought that the "proper" car 108 - R8 or whatever was intended to be the 108 race car (or maybe R8 was intended to be #107?)- would not have had registration plates either, so I don't think that this is that car.
The front and rear guards are partly visible and while they are`taken from a different angle than I am used to seeing they do look a lot like the early Strahle versions - ie less "flowing" from the top and more like an extension grafted on just to cover the wheels. The car also looks to have silver light trim, not black, but the photo is not good enough to be certain.
so what is this car? i don't think it is necessarily #108. Given it has a "T" on it it is definitely a practice car.
I have seen instances where there have been 2 cars at an event - one with the race number and another spare car with the same number but a "T" signifying a practice car for that entry. This is more common these days, but it is possible/probable that this was not car race car #108 - or was car #108 always a practice car?
If car 107 was LEO ZA 68 and this is a similar car LEO ZA 60 does that make the case for two 1972 shelled cars at the Targa in martini trim?????
is this Singer's "Mongrel"
comments.............................
Raj
but didn't the 107 car have registration plates LEO ZA 68? this one is LEO ZA 60
They would not have changed them. This is a second car that looks almost identical to the 107 car.
It could be another press department car - they seemed to have a lot of LEO ZA plates - RS 015 was LEO ZA 63 and used in brochures and the homologation papers, RS 016 was LEO ZA 64 and the Paris show car for the Press Dept, ........
I wonder if this was the car that is now at Gunnar Racing - RS 017 - that has the Martini Centre stripe under the other paint layers and Frank Galgolly thinks was at the Targa as well in 1973?? the martini paint is certainly in the right place :confused:
however the silver trim and the profile of the rear flares seem to suggest a 72 car rather than a 73 one
Hi Hugh and Raj.
Race # 108 was entered in the 1973 Targa Florio, to be driven by Giulio Pucci and Gunther Steckkonig. According to the results posted in Janos Wimpfen's "Time and Two Seats", it did not start the race. It was entered in the "Grand Touring+2000cc" class, as opposed to the #8, #9 and #107, which were entered in the "Sports 3000cc" class.
From this, one can presume that it was a 2.7/2.8 liter engined car, and that this was the car that was probably used to replace the "original" #107, which Pucci crashed in practice.
Wimpfen reports: (Presumably culled from various period reviews): "Third team car was handled by Steckkonig/Pucci. THIS LAST WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A GT ENTRY BUT WHEN PUCCI DAMAGED IT IN PRACTICE, (Author's caps), the modified T-car was substituted and raced in the Sports category."
It seems probable that this is the car that had the RSR engine from R8 put into it.
John Starkey
More thoughts on the LEO-ZA registration/tag sequence from Raj;
If, indeed, LEO-ZA 67 was 911 360 0019 and LEO-ZA 68 was 911 360 0020, then this adds more weight to my theory that cars with this number were never originally built; According to the "Carrera RS" book by George Konrdsheim, LEO-ZA 67 was a re-constituted 91S/T, (Probably the ex-Zasada 911 230 0769, which was re-numbered by the factory as 911 360 0001), and LEO-ZA 68 was another re-constituted S/T, 911 230 0841, which was re-numbered by the factory as 911 360 0002 (Perhaps re-numbered again to 911 360 0020?) and which is in the Porsche museum now, where this thread all started!
I should point out, however, that th LEO-ZA sequence of numbers were reserved for cars registered at the research and rce department at Weissach, whereas cars built on the production line in Stuttgart were registered in the S-A sequence.
John Starkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
Raj
the person who originally posted the photo on another site, and by all accounts was at the various targa races in the 70's and took some of these photos, identified the cars as "1973 from left: n°9 Kinnunen_Haldi; n°107T and 107 Pucci-Stekkonig; n°8 Muller-VanLennep "
NOTE he says 107 T not 108T.......
Given what he has posted, including this great shot today, and his apparent vast knowledge of the detail of the race and access to fantastic photos going back to the 1920's, I am inclined to believe his account
I still think these were two different 1972 cars - due to the different license plates. I don't think they would have been changed at the race.
I agree that neither is likely to have been car #9 - that car had temporary license stickers in the race anyway.
I also don't think it was R8. R8 was at Monza and was the latest car - definitely a 73 car. I am inclined to believe that R8 was the original 107 and maybe one of the cars we have seen on the video as 107 - or maybe not. Maybe the 107's on the video are two versions of the same 1972 based car.
The number plates are intriguing. I am trying to cross-reference the photos and other material I have. But I do know that RS 012 did not have LEO-ZA plates. It had plates LB-SN 883 in early 1973.
i have also seen at least 2 sets of plates on RS 015 LEO-ZA 63 and S 04775.
on the other LEO-ZA numbers isn't 69 supposed to be RS 020 at the TdC and 68 the ST? rather than 67 and 68?/
I am now looking for a clear shot of the rear of #107 in the race and in practice to check the number plate to see if it really is LEO-ZA 68 or LEO-ZA 60
enjoy the pic of Muller and van Lennep on car #8
yesQuote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
and it also is possible that the one "T" car could have had numbers 107 and 108 on it (and maybe others even) depending who was driving it
thought i'd offer my .02. I owned the #17 rs before frank. i owned it for quite a few years. it was purchased from a guy in texas. to the best of my knowledge, according to Olaf Lang, the car was the touring press car, it had no factory race history, the stripes were not martini stripes, but added on at a later date, the side vents in front of the rear wheels were also added on at a later date. Olaf was a very, very good friend of mine and helped me with many of my porsches. as you know, he had access to many of the records maintained by the factory. like everyone else, i hope the true history is found out about these cars, not one that is manufactured to fit a car.
Oh yea I have the first 911 ever built :DQuote:
SCAM is the Operative Word here
Not sure that Porsche would even know based on their so called record keeping ability
Here is a picture of car #9 that I have never seen before
by the looks of it it is in the race - not practice
This is the car the factory says is RS 020 or R2
the front looks very 73 with black trim , but you can see the oil filler on the side
also the damage to the RHR panel is evident - looks like a rough fix - consistent with the story of it being repaired prior to the race
Raj
here is close up pic of the jack area. I dont have a high res pic but it looks like a standard one to me - not a reinforced rallye one
there is no sign of the oil lines. combined with the oil filler it makes a compelling case for a 72!
but the front black grills is interesting - either it has been tricked up to look like a 73 or had front end damage and been repaired with new parts
I agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
the photo is out of a French language book "50 ans d'endurance--Volume2"
I have been trying to work out how to get hold of one - who knows what gems might be in it
This is one more puzzle about #9. If it ran with a race engine (2.5L or 3.0L), there would have been no engine mounted oil cooler, so it HAD to have an external cooler, and it would have been in the front...so the lines must be running through the sills. I can't remember for sure, but it seems the museum car had hard lines running up the passenger side outside the sills, but the 72 oil tank had been removed, so the complete system was most likely replaced. I'm pretty sure the 72S used hard lines that ran outside the sills, similar to the 73, and not in the sills (used 69-71)...like shown on the #3 press car.
It is likely then that this particular ST was built using an evolving body shell with the hard lines in the sill, but with the 72 oil tank system.
Gib
Probably of little value to the investigation, but an interesting read. From Norbert Singer.
Episoden von Norbert Singer, Chefentwickler und Einsatzleiter Porsche Rennabteilung, Weissach/D
Nenngeld bezahlt mit Preisgeld
LeMans Test-Weekend 1. April 1973
Am 31. März 1973 fuhren Norbert Singer mit vier seiner Mechaniker und seinen beiden Einsatzteams HErbert Müller /Gijs van Lennep und Manfred Schurti/Herlmuth Koinigg mit den beiden Porsche Carrera 911-360 R2 und R6 nach LeMans zum Testen.
Dort angekommen teilte man ihnen mit, dass heute kein Testtag sei sie aber tags darauf das 4 Stunden Rennen fahren könnten.
Na gut sagte sich Norbert Singer: „Wenn mir schon hier sin’, dann fahren’s mir halt das 4 Stunden Rennen.“
Die Dame bei der Registration gab zur Antwort, dass sich das Team dazu einzutragen und das Nenngeld zu bezahlen habe.
Für die Aufgabe wurde Herbert beauftragt, da er gut Französisch sprach. Nach dem Eintrag nannte die Dame bei der Registration den Betrag für das Nenngeld. Herbert hatte natürlich nicht genug Geld dabei und begab sich zur Mannschaft zurück.
Nun wurde gesammelt - alle gaben Ihr Geld und Herbert kehrte zum Schalter zurück und legte der Dame das Geld hin. Diese bemerkte, das sei aber nur
die Hälfte und Herbert erwiderte, dass das Team Porsche die andere Hälfte
vom Preisgeld bezahlen würde!
Die Dame lachte und sagte: „Das müsst ihr zuerst gewinnen!“, worauf Herbert meinte: „Das werden wir auch!“ Na gut meinte sie und ging darauf ein. ( Wäre heute unvorstellbar).
Nach 57 Runden à 13.640 Kilometern und einem Durchschnitt von 193.2km/h wurde das Team Müller/Lennep auf dem Martini Porsche Carrera 911-360 020
R2 Erste und konnten wie versprochen die andere Hälfte vom Nenngeld
bezahlen!
Beliebt bei den Mechanikern
In der Zeit als Herbert Müller bei Porsche Werksfahrer war, testeten diese meistens schon im Januar in Le Castellet auf dem Circuit Paul Ricard.
Hatten die Mechaniker eine längere Reparatur auszuführen, begab sich Herbert mit seinem dunkelgrünen BMW 2800 in das nächste Dorf und kaufte Mittagessen für alle ein.
Denn die Mechaniker hatten keine Zeit und die Porsche-Verantwortlichen sprachen - zumindest damals - kein Französisch. Waren alle satt und die "Testträger" noch immer nicht bereit, unterzog Herbert seinen BMW einer Autowäsche - mit "Reportermantel" und grünen Gummistiefeln...!
Nervosität in der Box
Targa Florio 1973
Bei der Targa Florio vom 13. Mai 1973 war neben Dr. Fuhrmann und Norbert Singer auch der Reifeningenieur Dieter Klotzbach anwesend. Nach dem Start
von Herbert unterhielt sich Klotzbach mit Singer und der Crew wegen den Reifenwechsel.
Eigentlich wollte man nach 2 Runden die hinteren und nach 4 Runden die vorderen Reifen wechseln. Klotzbach riet aber wegen der schlechten Strassenverhältnisse und da eine Runde ja auch mit 72 Kilometern zu Buche stand, die hinteren schon in der ersten Runde zu wechseln.
Herbert kam in die Box und die Mechaniker wechselten die hinteren Reifen. Dr.Fuhrmann sprang von der Mauer und wetterte zu Singer und den Mechanikern, ob sie nicht ganz bei Trost seien in der ersten Runde schon die Reifen zu wechseln. Damit hätten sie enorm viel Zeit verloren die sie wieder aufholen müssen.
Doch da beruhigte der Reifeningenieur Klotzbach den Dr. Fuhrmann und
zeigte ihm den einen hinteren Reifen der schon einen schleichenden
Plattfuss aufwies und zum sicheren Ausscheiden geführt hätte.
Dann kam aber auch gleich ein grosses Lob von Fuhrmann an die
Mannschaft! “Das habt Ihr aber Toll gemacht“ und die Welt war wieder in Ordnung. Dieser Entscheid erwies sich als weise, hat er in der Folge zum
Sieg der letzten klassischen Targa Florio geführt!
Da in der letzten Runde die italienischen Zuschauer oben am Berg immer
wieder riefen: „Numero otto abbandonato!“ (Nr.8 ausgefallen) und man zu
dieser Zeit noch keine Telemetrie oder Funk mit den Piloten hatte, wurde
man sehr nervös in der Porsche-Box. Man hatte aber in der Hälfte der Renndistanz einen Posten eingerichtet, der kleinere Reparaturen ausführen konnte und auch einige Ersatzteile zu Verfügung hatte. Mit diesem Posten
hatte man auch eine telefonische Verbindung. Als der meldete, dass Nr.8
noch nicht vorbeigekommen sei, wurde die Porsche-Crew noch nervöser.
Denn die Italiener riefen immer wieder: "Nr.8 ausgefallen" und niemand
wusste Bescheid!
Als endlich vom Posten die erlösende Nachricht kam: „Nr.8 ohne Probleme vorbeigefahren!“ fiel allen ein Stein vom Herzen.
Der Porsche Carrera 911-360 0588 R6 passierte nach 6 Stunden 54 Minuten
und 20 Sekunden die Ziellinie als Sieger vor dem Lancia Stratos von Sandro Munari mit 6 Minuten Vorsprung. Ein wunderbares Erlebnis für die ganze
Crew. Herbert vermochte seinen zweiten Gesamtsieg einzufahren ...und zu
feiern wie kein Zweiter!
Hi
yes i have that one as well
It is the TAP rallye or rallye Portugul.
I don't know the identity of the car or the entrants. i have it shown in my picture files as a 1972 ST (but i am not sure where that came from).
The rallye plate shows it as the 6th TAP rallye. I understand that it was first held in 1968, and the sixth running of the race was`on 11 to 15 October 1972 - just two weeks or so before the 72 tour de corse. So it is possibly an ex factory car or a factory supported car, as by then Porsche had virtually pulled out of rallying to concentrate on sports car racing. (I think the 72 Tour de Corse was the last rallye event apart from the safari rallies that they entered)
The next year's TAP rallye in 1973 was a WRC event (the inaugural year of the WRC so much more info was available)
You are correct, 1967, I cant type!Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
I am not certain off hand but i thought that some of the rallye cars in the late 60's (ie for monte etc) were done off a "T" base for weight reasonsQuote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
Hi RajQuote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
I still don't know what car it is but it was the entry for S. Zasada/R. Zyskowki in the TAP Rallye on 11 - 15 October 1972.
Given that it was a Zasada car it makes it even more likely that it was an ex werks ST. As you pointed out it is not a 72 so it must be a 71 or earlier car. It did not finish the Rallye but I don't know the reason.
here are some more pics.
Also I found another LEO-ZA car - LEO-ZA 44 which was a production model 1972 S used in some photo shoots. Pics of that attached as well.
It does not help resolve the issue of what the chassis number of the Targa car LEO-ZA 60 was.
However I now think that the 108T car became the 107 practice AND race car after the original 107 (R8) was crashed before practice ever began, and there was no LEO-ZA 68 car at the targa in 1973 and that registration plate number that we had assigned to race car 107, due to it being on all of the models of that car, is incorrect.
If this is true then a good case can be made for LEO-ZA 60 being RS 002, and that car being Singer's E42, firstly as practice car 108, then practice car 107 with the centre stripe and finally race number 107 with the "U" shaped front martini decals, as per the official record.
Hugh:
I agree with your conclusions regarding the 108T car with the LEO ZA 60 plate being the 107 car in the race, based on that rear end shot of 108T. Those unique rear flares look to be those on the Strahle/#3 press car, which makes it all fit together. Yet, we still don't know where this car is today do we?
Gib
I DON'T KNOW IF THIS HELPS OR ADDS TO THE DEBATE,BUt IN 1972 ZASADA OWNED ST #9111300683;the african safari car
Raj:
You make a very good point about the Martini decal in front of the roundel missing from the 108T car. That logo had been on the press car, and it had the same placement on the 107 car in the race, so it does make this picture harder to connect to that car. The flares definitely look like the Strahle/press car, and the rear deck Martini scripting looks right for this car also, but maybe it is the 5th RSR at the TF. One other detail that appears wrong for 108T being 107 in the race is the shape of the number roundel...it is not perfectly round. Maybe this is the 5th RSR...8, 9, 107 (wrecked), 107 (mongrel-raced), 108T (training car). We have never seen pictures of all 5 cars in a group have we?
Gib
I agree that Raj makes a good point on the Martini roundel.
Unfortunately I have no good picture of the side of 107 at practice while it still has the centre stripe to see if the roundel is there in that configuration or not.
This picture comes closest (all the rest are front on) and I am now wondering, after seeing the "108T" picture, if the shadow I have outlined is a "T" - ie the same as on the 108 car but with the number changed to 107? Also it is too hard to see if the roundel is there from this pic
The other picture that makes me a little uneasy about my conclusion is the picture of the 4 cars in the pits. The caption to that picture says " 1973 from left: n°9 Kinnunen_Haldi; n°107T and 107 Pucci-Stekkonig; n°8 Muller-Van Lennep "
Given there is a clear picture of 107 with the centre stripe, this can only be correct if the car second from the left is R8 (then IT should be called 107); 108T(LEO ZA 60), in which case it IS a different car to race 107 and my conclusion above is incorrect, or it is the other practice car that had been there for a few weeks.
I have also attached a blown up picture of the pits.
Happy new year to you all!
A small point:- Zasada never owned this 1971 2.2ST. It was a factory entered car in the Safari Rally in 1971 and was then used as a normal service vehicle in the Press/Sports department, to be prepared again for the 1972 Safari Rally. Jurgen Barth and one mechanic were Zasada's service crew on this occasion, and he entered the car privately. Zasada/Bien finished 2nd OA. Afterwards, Jurgen Barth bought the car from the factory and used it as his private car for a year, before selling it to John Buffum, who won the U.S. rally Championship twice with it.
I brokered the car in March 2006 to a European buyer and it is currently being restored. Jurgen Barth confirmed the history when I was conducting the sale.
John Starkey
for what its worth, just noticed this:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...berbulge01.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...berbulge02.jpg
looks like a bulge in the rubber seal between the wing and the bumper.
Good catch, Mike. There is no doubt that these 2 pix show the same car. Another small detail that separates the 108T from 107 is the shape of the "1". It is flat on 108T, and droops downward on 107. I don't think they would have changed the "1" in the number just to change to 107. I think 108T was another RSR with Martini stripes, and with the LEO-ZA 60 plate number which also differentiates it from 107's LEO ZA 68 plate.
Gib
GibQuote:
Originally Posted by letsrollbabe
I thought that at first but I think they are the same - just that the top of the 1 on car 108 is cut off in the picture
if you look at the bottom edge of the bit at the top it is straight and at 90 degrees to the vertical part on both cars.
On all of the pics of 107 you see the whole number which has the sloping part at the top - on 108 you only see a bit of it. If you look at how much of the "0" you can see and compare it with the same part of the 107 car it is clear that a fair bit of the top of the 1 is chopped out of the picture
Hugh:
You are right, it does look like the top of the "1" was chopped off in the picture. It is interesting that by studying these pix, how much you can see that you didn't see that last time. Is the rear flare edge at about 10 o'clock (I can't draw circles on these pix...neanderthal) in the 108T shot slightly dented, as seen in the photo Mike posted of race 107 with the u shaped Martini stripes. These flares do look very similar. I am back to wondering if 108T could possibly be race 107 as Hugh suggested awhile ago. But we would still need to explain the LEO ZA 60 plate, no Martini logo ahead of the number roundel, and why number 108 becomes 107? Maybe the dent really isn't there in the 108T photo, and I am just seeing a flaw in a poor quality image.
Gib
Gib, its hard to tell from this angle on the 108 car. Having said that, if you look very closely at the blow up, there is a slight shading at that spot and the curvature of the arch doesn't look quite right. It's in direct sunlight there, the shading could be where the arch has turned in.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ore/dent02.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...Moore/dent.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ore/dent03.jpg
Gib / Mike
I had not noticed that before - and don't think I would have without Mike's blow up version
I think that is the same piece of damage on both pictures
it is fairly conclusive evidence that 108T and the race 107 with the "U" shaped Martini livery are one and the same car and the earlier post that showed the same bulge in the rubber seal in the bumper on 107 race car and the 107 car that has the centre stripe and looks to have a "T" as well suggests that all three are the same car.
That suggests strongly that that car was LEO ZA 60 and that the models of race car 107 with a LEO ZA 68 plate are incorrect (which is unusual as they usually are very well researched)
This means that this car was used as a T car for both 107 and 108 and then when the original 107 (R8 with the "u" shaped livery) was wrecked it was the substitute 107 race car after receiving the engine from the wrecked R8.
The other interesting thing is the Targa records show a "Martini racing" T car running in practice against van Lennep and Muller's names and that car in GT+2.0 (group 4) class. I suspect that is the same 108T car but with the regular engine.
I still think the factory records that call this car RS002 (the ex Strahle car) are correct and there is nothing substantive that we have seen here to prove otherwise.
Raj
on your point why would the factory give the "R" newest car to Pucci and race it in group 4 when the factory drivers had older cars? I think there is a reasonable explanation.
The factory had only one permanent "team" in 1973 - van Lennep and Muller.
All the other drivers were contracted for the individual race only. (there is a suggestion that they could not afford more than one full time driver pairing.)
Pucci and Steckkönig had been regular drivers for the factory for a long time so were not necessarily "inferior" to the Leo Kinnunen / Claude Haldi pairing.
Indeed Haldi was originally driving the 908 /03 for Porsche Club Romand and only went over to the Martini team during practice, after they had engine trouble with the 908.
Kinnunen and Steckkönig were cross entered in 107 and 9 and Kinnunen is shown as having practiced in 107 but Steckkönig (and Peter Falk who was also entered for 9) never drove car 9.
Van Lennep and Muller had a car they were very familiar with so they were in good shape.(also, importantly, no other driver was cross entered for their car)
R8 had been originally entered in group 4 - not prototype class - at Monza a couple of weeks earlier and was theoretically running in that specification (although the other Italian Porsche team successfully protested its specification and it ran the race in group 5 in the end)
Van Lennep and Muller as the lead team were entered in prototype class along with car 9 which, if it was R2, probably would not have qualified for group 4 anyway.
I don't think it is inconsistent that the "third" team would have been entered in group 4 even though the factory Martini team rarely ran in that class, as they did not want to compete with customer teams. It would not be inconsistent for that team to be given a car that met the group 4 specs - which the new R8 did.
However once it was wrecked and they had to enter the RS 002 car with R8's engine it might have had to run in prototype class as it may not have been eligible for group 4 given the modifications.
The records show that R2 was car #62 at the Le Mans test on 1 April 1973 along with R6 (RS 0588) as car #61.
R6 went on to be the #8 car at the Targa (the only one where there is no dispute ironically given the initial post in this thread) and R2 (RS020) is supposed to be car #9 at the Targa.
We have seen a number of pictures of car 62 at the Le Mans test that all show a "new" 1973 car with the "U" shaped livery and no sign of an oil door - in marked contrast to the car #9 at the Targa which is a 1972 car (or at least has a 1972 oil system) and "old style" martini livery with roundels.
2 pics of car 62 at Le Mans are attached.
So far pictures of car 61 have remained elusive.
I have now found what I believe is a picture of car 61, which is supposed to be R6, and another picture that "might be" of the same car at the Le Mans test.(It is too indistinct to be sure)
both of these are attached.
To me car 61 looks more like car 9 at the Targa and more likely to be R2 than car 62, which looks more likely to be R6.
Finally I have posted a picture of car #81 at Monza which indisputably is R6 just a couple of weeks before the Targa.
Again its livery closely resembles car 62 at the Le Mans test and does not look anything like car 61.
Unfortunately neither of the pictures of car 61 show the crucial area around where the oil door is - or isn't. So there is no confirmation there.
However I believe these pictures make it more likely that car 9 at the targa was R2, based on a 72 shell with an oil door, and it had one since it was built (or converted from an ST).
However by the Le Mans race in June, when R2 was entered as car 48 for Sonauto, it had apparently lost the oil door.
If car 62 at the Le Mans test was really R6, not R2, and car 61 is R2, and turns out to have an oil door, a number of the question about car #9 at the Targa may go away.
note on car 61at Le Mans test:
*wipers park to the left, like car 9
*flag mirror like car 9
*crude flares at rear like car 9 - this would be consistent with reports of them being fashioned when the car was converted from a rallye car at paul ricard a couple of months earlier
* fuel fillers on bonnet the same pattern as car 9 and unlike practice car 107 (or the wagenpass photo for RS020) but same as race car 107 and race car 8 - ie standard RSR prototype fillers
* probably black horn grills and trim as for a 73 car and like car 9 (despite its oil door)
* possible different colored roof as in car 9 - maybe I am seeing what I want to, but it looks like it on my screen
Given I have used up my allotment of pictures in this post I will post a couple of pics of car 9 and 8 for reference in the next post
From the last post; for reference pics of car 9 and 8 at the targa
Hugh:
Great find! We had speculated many posts back as to whether the 61, 62 cars were transposed, but without a pic of 61 it was only a question. These shots plus the details you list really do confirm 61 as 9 in the TF, and not 62.
It does seem to clear up the identity of the 3 Martini finishers in the TF, 8, 9, 107, and does seem to confirm that 002 and 020 were 2 different cars, (race 107, 9 respectively.)
And Mike's blow up of the "dent" really does seem to clear up the 108T/107 race question. The only detail that is still puzzling in the 108T pic is where is that Martini logo. Is it possible that it is there but the lighting in the shot just obscures it? I can't believe it would have been removed and then reinstalled in exactly the same place.
Gib
raj
and compare the Le mans photo with this one!
looks very similar?
and the #9 car and the Le mans car with the second one
WOW, this stuff is FANTASTIC!
Hugh: I planned to reply to your 12/31 e-mail, but--since our e-mails are relevant to this thread and this thread has launched itself since the New Year, I'll respond here. Yup, I agree LEO ZA 60 is E42 since Mike Moore showed that the battle damage to 108T is the same as 107 with the arrow livery, and 107 with the arrow livery is E42 (from Singer's notes). Now if we can just get Mike to do his digital magic to this image and tell us what the last digit on the registration plate of 107 is, maybe we will prove it!
Attachment 41611
Also, those newly discovered pics of #61 at the April 1973 Le Mans test weekend sure do look like #9 under braking in Puttock's films of the Targa Florio. I rechecked Singer's notes for the LM test and sure enough--Singer always refers to #61 as R2 which I think we have agreed is #9 at the TF!
sorry Jim, hard to make out the word Martini let alone the licence plate number.....
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...Moore/pull.jpg
while I was playing though did create this version, might try marketing it as a decorative wall panel!
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ore/pull02.jpg
I have a relatively hi res version of that picture as well - more so than the version that can be posted here (and another similar one) and the best I can do is make out the "ZA" on the plate
I am on the lookout for a better rear view of the car in the race
I tried capturing a still from the video to do it but could not get a clear picture.
This morning, I received the following e-mail from Nikolay Karazlatev who asked me to post the following message on this thread
My name is Nikolay Karazlatev and I’m from Bulgaria. Unfortunately I can’t register …. For that reason I send to you my pictures, opinions and proofs regarding 1973 Porsche Carrera RSR:
1. The car with license-plate "LEO ZA 69" was driven by Larousse(number 2) at 1972TdC, then Paul Rickard test, then number 61 at LM test, then number 9 at Targa Florio. My proof: please see the enclosed two pictures(1972TdCorse_69) with oil filler, sign SHELL with lettering SHELL(like the two pictures from Hugh’s # 504) and the number plate above Carrera which is different from the car with license-plate "LEO ZA 68" see picture(1972TdCorse_68). Maybe Larousse practice with this car, but they don’t change the license plates between the two cars.
2. The car with number 107 from Targa Florio was "LEO ZA 60". Please see the enclosed image(art.jpg). Maybe exist the real picture and the artist reproduce this one.
Attachment 41697
Attachment 41699
Attachment 41698
Suddenly realizing the power of the thread, I replied to Nikolay with the following request:
Do you have pictures of R2 (#9 at the Targa Florio) and E42 (#107 at the Targa Florio) at pre-Training for the Nurburgring 1000 km race?. Pre-Training occurred on May 21-22, 1973, a week before the 1000 km race, and was the introduction of R7 (race #6 at the Nurburgring) as the new improved wide-bodied prototype RSR with lots of fiberglass body parts. You can tell if the picture was taken at pre-Training because the #6 on the hood of R7 is straight whereas the #6 was slanted toward the driver during the 1000 km race. I have no idea what race #s were assigned to R2 or E42 at pre-Training; I suspect the cars must have looked like they did at the Targa because pre-Training occurred only a week after the Targa Florio.
Anybody? Any and all pictures will be greatly appreciated!
Hugh: Nikolay's third picture is the "painting" I referred to in our Dec letters as evidence that #107 was LEO ZA 60. Not much more credible than the registration plates on the back of MiniChamps model, eh? Ah well, the search goes on!!
Jim:
This is really great info, and confirmation from another source of what has been postulated here based on all the evidence we could gather. We have been unable to see that 72 oil door in previous pix of Larousse's TdC car, and you can still just barely see it fron this shot. Can you ask Nikolay if he knows whether the LEO ZA 69 car was a renumbered 72S or a newly built 73RS with the 72 oil door body?
I love the painting of LEO ZA 60 (aka race 107, 108T/107T, E42, Martini Press Car #3, Strahle #5). It even has the little rear mud flaps that only this car had. Mike, you need to get a really good copy of this painting as a companion for "our" car.
Gib
R Gruppe 17
EarlySReg. 434
Hi Gib, its a great picture, I've never seen it before, any idea where's it from?Quote:
Originally Posted by letsrollbabe
WOW!!!
I must have looked at that rear picture of LEO ZA 69 and the other photos of the #2 car 1000 times and did not see the lack of a FERODO logo on the #2 sticker and the lack of the SHELL word on the shell sticker :o
It definitely looks like the car #2 LEO ZA 69 was Larousse practicing or something like that but certainly not the race car.
I have enough pictures of the #2 race car with the shell words and FERODO logo, one of which I can easily recognize Larousse in, to now see the difference.
And DOUBLE WOW!!
that photo of the side of car #2 clearly showing the oil door.
It surprised me how indistinct the oil door was in that photo (but certainly there) - no wonder we could not see it in the other shots.
Maybe it is to do with the colour scheme that does not make it stand out as much.?
I think it is VERY clear that the RS 020 (R2) car had an oil door at the TdC (as car 2) and at the le mans test (car 61) and was the car #9 at the Targa still with an oil door. It seems to have lost the oil door before Le mans as car 48 (but I must go back and blow up the pictures`I have of that car given how indistinct it is on the car #2 here.)
car 48 from le mans certainly became the museum car - that was shown earlier in the thread from the le mans tell tail lights etc.
I have a bunch of photos from Nurburgring 1973 but don't think I have any of R2 or car 107 from pre-practice ( although I am sure I have them of R7)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Moore
Mike:
I have never seen it before, and can't make out the artist's name. Maybe Nikolay can shed some light on the source through Jim.
Gib
R Gruppe 17
EarlySReg 434
Gib: I downloaded that picture from http://hobbystage.net/porsche/mouse/...678-005667.jpg in July 2004, but--I have not been able to open that site since then. Maybe the more digitally inclined computer-meisters on this thread can make it work
Hugh: Here is a pic of R2 at the TdC published by Bill Oursler in the April 2007 Panorama. The oil door is visible here, but--is it the practice car or the rally car and why?
Attachment 41701
no pictures of other cars at this stage but to illustrate Jim's point, here is a picture of R7 at the pre race testing and one ( from almost the same angle) of it at the race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Calzia
Note apart from the numbers being at a different angle:
*no Porsche badge on the bonnet for the car at testing
*brake cooling ducts in front spoiler in race car but not at practice
* extensions on front spoiler unpainted at practice
I am sure there are other detail differences (my detail spotting has let me down of late (see post above))
that is a great photoQuote:
Originally Posted by Jim Calzia
I had not seen it before (note to self- must buy more books - especially the newish one by Oursler :D )
It is the race car
the number 2 is on the correct car LEO ZA 69
the sticker with the race number is the official one for the race - with the Ferodo signage unlike that on the race number 2 on LEO ZA 68 in the earlier picture
One extra detail
can you make out anything on the quarter windows?
both sides look to me to have air vents like on the 911R's and lLarousse's 1970 TdF car
Is that correct or just a reflection in the photo?
now that I look closely they are on some other pictures (on both sides of he car) but not at Paul Ricard
see the picture of a similar fitting on Larousse's 1970 TdF car
Earlier in this thread it was established that car 48 at Le Mans in 1973, the Sonauto entered car for Gregg and Chasseuil, was R2.
Looking at the photos it appeared that this version of the car no longer had an oil door.
However, given the pictures of car 61 at Le Mans test, the clear oil door at the Targa, and how difficult it is to see the oil door on the TdC #2 car despite good photos, I think it is necessary to reexamine whether or not there is an oil door on car 48, or if it is a case of the photos not being good enough.
The two photos of the car that I have that show the correct area, posted below, do not show an oil door.
However they are both low resolution photos and the area is indistinct. I cannot even see the gap at the trailing edge of the door. Given how hard it is to see the oil door on the TdC car (the level of clarity is about the same as the trailing edge door gap) I think it is not correct to say there is no oil door (unless it cant be seen and the door gap is clearly visible).
Rather I think we need a much better photo before a call can be made, and on what I have seen in recent photos I would be willing to argue that it is more likely than not that there IS an oil door on car 48 even though I can't see it.
Its a scam
Next chapter
Really just a guess but prove me wrong :D
Embedded is another message and pictures I received from Nikolay while I was out of the Office this week.
Dear Jim,
--- I’m only collected a various pictures, facts & details from many years. But I would like to clarification two pictures:
- Picture(what%2520is%2520this%2520at%2520targa.jpg) was made at race “1000 Km Monza” - car number 81. The proof: Above the Sticker DUNLOP there was sticker BILSTEIN, at the Targa Florio there was white sticker Shell;
Attachment 41914
- Picture(0588%20longtail.jpg) was made at race “1000 Km Zeltweg” - car number 7
Attachment 41915
I think the mistakes come from the origin source: www.toadhallracing.com where this images are with WRONG captions.
Also during the race 1000 Km Zeltweg there was torrential rain…. The two RSR was with two wipers(see the post 301 – page 21) at the start, but two RSR was losing the right wiper during the race, please see the enclosed pictures.
Attachment 41917
Attachment 41916
If you would like please publish this in the thread.
These are great pictures especially those from Zeltwig, but--I think the picture of the Mary Sturat tail was taken at the Targa Florio, not Monza. What say you?
Also, Nikolay wrote OK re: publishing his e-mail address. If you would like to write him directly, his e-mail is nikolay.karazlatev@dhl.com
Jim i agree
fantastic photos
i have not seen the Zeltwigl ones in the rain before.
I agree about the photo of the aluminum mary stuart tail most likely to be taken at the targa. i have always thought so - not for a good reason but because we know they had it made up in that format there, the tires are covered in sand / gravel which is more likely to occur at the targa than at monza, and (the weakest reason of all) the background, such as you can see it looks "rustic" and not like a race circuit.
We discussed the shell sticker v the bilstein sticker earlier on in the thread and i think it was raj who pointed out that the shell sticker goes over some of the tape on the tail extension so may have been applied over the bilstein sticker after the tail had been modified
it is interesting that car 9 did not have a shell sticker but did have the bilstein sicker there still at the targa
Nikolay responds!
I’m not agree with you and Hugh regarding picture(what%2520is%2520this%2520at%2520targa.jpg) .
The aluminum mary stuart tail was first introduce at race “1000 Km Monza”.
Please see the enclosed picture I made a mark that show that on the rear bumper there were rectangular light, that on the Targa Florio missing in all picture that I have. Do you have any pictures from Targa Florio with this rectangular light on the rear bumper?
Attachment 42074
Good Point! Nikolay is correct; none of the pictures of the rear end of race #8 (R6) or #9 (R2) at the TF have the rectangular reflector. R6 and R8 were at Monza, and the Mary Stuart tail used at Monza is similar to the MS tail at the TF. So Nikolay may be correct: his picture was taken at Monza. But--what car is it: R6 or R8? I know the sticker in the lower left corner of the rear window was on R7 at Spa, but the MS tail and rear bumper horns at Spa differ from those at the TF. We need to see more car in Nikolay's picture to answer that! One thing is certain: Porsche kept changing those cars a lot between races during the '73 WMC!
Nikolay is certainly correct that the mary stuart tail was used at Monza. i believe it was used before that as well but only in practice at Paul Ricard. I had not considered the photo might have been Monza, in part because I had not considered it was an aluminum one there - I immediately thought it was a "glass" one and the photo I have makes it impossible to tell. Also I have only 2 photos from monza and none from the rear so the thought that this could be monza had not even occurred to me.
I have no photos at the targa of any car with the rear reflectors and Mary stuart tail so it is quite possible this is monza.
The other point is the tail is in a slightly different position to that at the targa pit stop picture - in the latter one the "p" in dunlop is completely covered by tape - in this one it is partly visible. i had always put that down to fine tuning - but maybe it is a different application?
It does not help between R6 and R8 though :( even though the same sticker is on the rear window of R6 at the targa - we don't have R8 to compare
And WHAT is that sticker on the rear window?? it isn't this in the second photo (from the museum) is it?
I can't believe we're on page 36 already!
This is really fascinating but I can't keep up and I'm now lost. I suspect I'm not alone.... I think it would really be useful if one of you could summarize the situation in a couple of paragraphs to allow more members to participate and enjoy "the search". Not sure if it's possible though....
RajQuote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
I agree it is strange. I have no explanation. I can see the shape of the flag mirror base on the martini stripe as well. You cant necessarily even say that the door was transplanted from another car as the holes for the LeMans lights are in the doors. :confused:
However to add to that confusion I don't believe R2 had that martini color / decal combination in ANY event prior to the Frere test - certainly not as the 61 car at the le mans test or the 9 car at the targa or at le mans as the 48 car - so I have no idea how an indent of a flag mirror on martini stripes with holes in the door could have appeared on an original door for the car. Maybe I am losing the plot completely?
We know it was not the real #8 (588) it was a longtail by Zeltwig and then went to the USA.
However.....
The #8 car at Zeltwig was supposed to be R7 (686) the ex Le Mans #46 car.
BUT interestingly at Zeltweig in its "pumped up" wide body appearance at Zeltweig only 2 weeks after Le Mans (see picture) it has no signs of any of the factory Le Mans lights , holes in the doors etc that all 3 of the factory prepared cars had at le mans.
Is it possible the records are wrong on which is which OR is it possible in reconfiguring R7 for Zeltweig they removed a lot of exterior panels, doors, etc to replace them with different, wide body, ones and then used some of the panels to rebuild R2 after its "big wheels" testing?
On this subject I have been meaning to post this photo of the engine bay of the museum car that was sent to me (thanks Dave B:) )
It is the museum car taken in the late 1970's early 1980's. Does the oil filler / system that is visible give enough hints to say 73 or 72? I don't know but I thought you could compare with your cars. My guess is 1973 system or maybe "cant tell".
Also are there other strange features? what about the two cables on the RHS going into the cabin? any idea?
And a a PS to my previous post another reason why I did not consider an aluminum mary stuart at monza was there was a "glass' one at Spa on car 41 and Spa was held between monza and the Targa in 1973.
Finally , Milou, I sympathize.
this has turned into a thread on the history of all the R prototype cars in 1973 with a particular emphasis on the ones that may (or may not) have been at the targa and regular sidetracks to the origins of the RSR's, "R prototype" cars in the ST's etc and what crossover cars there might have been.
I have been tempted to start new threads on some of the issues a number of times but thought it was easier to keep it all together to avoid doubling it up on a number of threads as was starting to happen on the one with the Tour De Corse cars which interrelates with this one.
You have thrown down the challenge - lets see if it can be met?
I have taken up Milou's challenge to try and summarize where this thread is at to make it "more accessible".
I am not sure I have succeeded and I have certainly failed the "couple of paragraphs" test.:o However, here goes, I hope I have not missed anything major out or misrepresented anything or anyone:
Initially the thread asked whether the car #8 RSR in the factory museum was being misrepresented as the actual Targa Florio winner from 1973 or not given that the real winner was RSR 0588 or “R6” which for many years has been owned by Peter Kitchak
The answer was; no it was not, as a careful reading of the words on the board describing the car in the museum show that it is portrayed as a car “representing” the factory prototype cars of that year (the “R” cars), and it is a real one at that, just it was not the 1973 Targa winner. However a cursory reading would leave the impression that the car in the museum was the Targa winner.
The thread then started to go in two directions:
1. what was the identity of the museum car;
2. what was the identity of the cars at the 1973 Targa Florio, how many cars were really there and everything about them etc
and then Jim Calzia dropped the really big question pointing out the oil door on car #9, which was RS 020 or R2, and supposedly the factory museum car, and asking how come it seems to be on a 72 tub…….
This lead to an examination of all the cars that were supposed to be there and fantastic period video was posted along with a lot of photos being unearthed.
It also lead to a critical examination of the origins of the 1973 RSR cars (the R prototype cars in particular) and whether any were converted ST’s, and along the way a detailed examination of which cars were in what events etc (this is still ongoing and is throwing up lots of discrepancies in the records).
There was a particular emphasis on the history and origins of R2, the car that is supposed to be the museum car, and car #9 at the Targa, as well as car 107 at the Targa which also had an oil door.
From all of that (over a couple of years worth of posts) it emerged that:
• The winner was indeed the Kitchak car R6 (RS 0588)
• R2, car #9 at the Targa and the car that is supposed to be the car in the museum, was built on a shell with an oil door ie a 1972 tub (its exact origins are still unclear ie built new on a 72 tub or a converted ST and why); it was Larousse’s rallye car #2 at the Tour de Corse in November 1972 (with an oil door) an as an RS prototype competition car but not yet an RSR; it went to Paul Ricard race track for tests to create an RSR track car; it went to the Le Mans test in April 1973 as RSR car 61 (not car 62 as the records show) and then to the Targa as car #9 and then to Le Mans as car 48 for Gregg; then to the factory test track to test 917 wheels and what looks like a prototype "long tail" on it; and apparently then was rebuilt as the car now seen in the museum; but before it went there it was tested by Frere and several other journalists. THERE IS STILL SOME DOUBT ABOUT THE LAST PART OF THIS – (from going to Le Mans onwards )
• Car 107 created much of the interest for a long time. It was a practice car that was not intended to compete. The actual car intended to compete was R8 (RS 0974) that had raced with R6 at Monza but it got wrecked in practice. The issues included whether there were more than one practice car, if so which one was used in the race, what was its identity, was it an ST or an RS,– or was it a converted ex race car with a number below the first real RS which starts at RS 0011. This in turn led on to the existence of two such cars RS 0001 (which Raj on the board has) and RS 0002 the ex Strahle ST converted to a RS and used as the press car for photographs. It has been agreed that car 107 was the ex Strahle car and now the main thing unresolved is what happened to it and to confirm its registration number is LEO ZA 60 not LEO ZA 68, as on the models of it, and to confirm that there are not two cars, one with each number. A part of the confusion is the one car (RS002) seems to have had many different identities at the Targa; as practice car 108T, practice car 107T and as race car 107 with two different liveries, one with an “arrow” martini bonnet and the other with a “U” martini livery.
• In turn confusion has been created between R2 (RS 020) and RS002 and whether or not they were the same car, along with what ever happened to R1 and did it exist or was IT RS0001 – ie the car Raj has which is an ex Zasada ST rallye car converted by the factory to an RS with proper RS numbers etc.
• Along the way the were also questions about the role of the two factory ST’s in the 1972 Monte Carlo and whether they may have ended up as one of the RS cars in question or been integral in creating the RS / RSR cars? It turns out that at least one of them still exists at present and that is unlikely that either was used in this way.
• This has now evolved into looking at which “R” cars were at which 1973 race and trying to track them from one event to another. It is not helped by the fact that they did evolve from race to race and sometimes within an event. Also the records that are on many websites of chassis numbers for each car in various cases appear to be incorrect. It has also evolved into an examination of the origins and ultimate destinations of each of these cars which were the ultimate racing expressions of the longhoods. (only 8 R cars were officially built in 1972 / 73 and even that is subject to question as R1 may not have existed and some like R4 may have had multiple identities or a very short life)
Unresolved questions include;
• Did car 48 at Le Mans have an oil door; we have seen lots of photos but not one clear enough to answer this
• Did R1 (RS019) ever exist; if so what was it used for, what did it look like and what happened to it?
• What happened to car 107 at the Targa (RS002)?
• Was R2 a converted ST or built deliberately on a 1972 tub? And
• Are we really sure the car in the museum is R2?
• Why are the holes on the door for a flag mirror, piecing the Martini livery, and the indent of a flag mirror base on the car in the Frere picture if it was the #48 Sonauto car which had different livery and a different mirror?
The thread is also now looking at whether there might be pictures of two of the Targa cars (107 and 9), possibly in Targa livery, at pre training for the Nurburgring 1000km a week after the Targa.
Hugh:
Nice job summarizing this long thread. For me, looking from the 1000 feet level, the discovery that the factory renumbered a few 72 911s as part of the RS series competition cars, and the number of errors in various records of this period are valuable takeaways. Discovering truth takes some work, period photos are invaluable, and a collective discovery process helps greatly.
Another aspect of these cars we have not touched on is the evolvement of the technical features of the RSRs during 72-73. Those details would make for an interesting thread...engines, suspensions, safety devices, weight reducing efforts, tires/wheels. These details would have to rely more on factory records, notes, and some period photos, plus various books that have documented some of what really happened.
Another effort could be undertaken (even though they are "short hoods") to explore the RSRs from 74 on, including the turbo development. We know that several of the 73 RSRs evolved into 74 style RSRs, including the 2.1 turbo, 934, 935, etc. Whether they were renumbered earlier cars, and what mechanical changes evolved/when would be interesting details to know. And of course, where are some of these cars today.
It could go on forever....maybe we should just get a life....
Gib
Hugh,
Thank you so much for this Summary, it is extremely useful and I now feel "back on track"! Much appreciated, I owe you one;)
I believe that the Sonauto car was run under the GTS class and therefore could not have the Mary Stuart mod....the Martini cars were considered prototypes because of this.....
I think it was more strategic and to make sure BP Sonauto didn't compete directly against Martini.
This site seems to list chassis numbers as well:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-10-photo.html
Milou
Thank you for your kind words. You post from the other day got me thinking about how we build on the information we find in threads like these and make it more accessable.
That site you listed is a great one. But like all others its information has to be critically assessed.
For example on that site, and all others I have seen with chassis numbers, it states that the 48 Sonauto car from Le Mans is #911 360 1033. That is the number of a Sonauto customer RSR but, I think we have proven, NOT the number of the 48 car.
All the pictorial evidence, factory information obtained by you, Singers records etc say that the 48 car was a "factory prepared car and was R2 911 360 0020. In addition I remember you got advice from the factory that the car was "loaned" to Sonauto for the race where the 1033 car was sold to them.
This is a trap with these sites, and the internet generally, (although it is not confined to the internet). I have been guilty of falling into it a number of times on this thread.
For example with the Le Mans test cars the records on which car was which is back to front in all sites I have seen. Even skeptical use of that information (without period documentary evidence -ie photos - to check against) led this thread off on a wrong direction on the identity of R2 and what may have happened to it over time for months. Eventually it was corrected and accepted that the published records of the chassis numbers for each car need to be reversed.
The big question now is what to do with this new information.
While we can not be 100% sure that the published information is incorrect, but I am as sure as I can be. I thought of writing to one of the sites with this information - but why would they believe it, would they even care, and what difference would it make. It is extremely hard to correct wrong information in this "information age".
One of the great things about this site, and even a long and convoluted thread like this, is that the facts can be debated, the logic chain and assumptions questioned and critically assessed and hopefully (if you can get to the end) an agreed "truth" can be documented. However as you stated the other day it is extremely hard to work your way thru it.
This has reminded me of the other debate going on in the board - having a separate area for documenting facts and details about cars - ie when the collective wisdom of the membership reach a conclusion about something - say the conclusions from this thread on which cars were which - it is then summarized and documented to provide a "source of truth" to counter all the other "facts" out there.
It would be a crime to edit (to make it more accessible) a thread such as this, with all its wrong assumptions and dead ends etc, as I think that documenting the process of how we reached the conclusions is as important as documenting the conclusions. Maybe you would put two threads in one area linked together - one on the conclusions and one, for the brave to read, on how they were reached.
This board, despite all of its little foibles and occasional "blow ups", IS becoming a global authority on these cars. It is fantastic that so many knowledgeable people share their knowledge here and it would be great to find way to build on the information that we learn in threads like these.
Raj
I had noted most of those points and I think I can explain most of them
old style engine lid: car 48 had a ducktail at le mans - it would get in the way of whatever they were trying to create with this tail (a longtail?) so the put on an old normal lid
the centelocks are interesting. They were obviously testing wide wheels.They seem to have used 917 rear wheels that were centrelock. maybe the test parameters were such that that they needed to put them on the front to validate the test
At that stage R5 was out of the picture (had not raced since may at Nurburgring as a GT)
R6 had been a factory car (with centrelocks) at le mans and was on its way to Austria as a longtail
R7 had been a factory car at le mans with centrelocks and was on its way to austria as a widebody with a new front spoiler as well
R8 disappeared at the targa (for that year at least)
At le mans the thre factory prepped cars had 3 diffeent front spoilers
car 48 did not seem to have cooling holes and looked "stock"
car 47 (R6) had cooling holes up high partly cut into the bumper
On the wipers they were to the right on car 48 at le mans, cant tell at the test track with the wide wheels but you cant see them on the left, they were at the right on the frere test and early shots at the museum and still are as far as I know. However as you say they were to the left at the targa as car 9, and also to the left at all previous known or suspected photos.
All i can say is they rebuilt the car as a stock RSR after the targa to qualify for group 4 and it was changed at that stage - no idea of any other explanation
car 46 (R7) had a front that looked similar to the frere test car but had a completely new deep one by austria
I am not going to try to explain the martini stripes unless it was done as a "tribute" to all of the R cars
the other explanation is it could have replicated the latest signwriting from the 46 car at le mans - in fact it seems almost ientical down to the "small arrow" front bonnet rather than the large arrow that it had when tested later or has now
I suppose they could have actually used the front off the 46 car at le mans as it was surplus given the remodel of that car for austria :confused:
There must have been a lot of RSR wipers left around race circuits.
There seem to be a number of photos of different cars at race meetings with one wiper. However there are other photos of the same car at the same meeting with two wipers
I have come to the conclusion that at all races the cars started with 2 wipers , either parked to the left or to the right, and some lost one (or more) during the race
I had a very close look at that front spoiler - i dont think there were any ducts but i cant be certain.
More news from Nikolay
Please find enclosed my last 3 pictures of the RSR from Monza, that I find out in the web:
The car #81 was without Shell Sticker at the rear bumber
The car #82 was with Shell Sticker at the rear bumber
I think that in the box there was slop oil, after that the all road was strew with sand ...........
Attachment 42690
Mary Stuart Tail on Race #81
Attachment 42691
Attachment 42693
Mary Stuart Tail on Race #82
Attachment 42692
That is a great shot of R8 (car 82) at Monza :)
there has just been a large number of photos of cars 8, 9 and 107 posted on this thread on forum sport auto http://www.forum-auto.com/sport-auto...378358-385.htm
It looks like many of them were taken by the poster enzomanz andI have never seen them before. My rudimentary translation of the Italian (thanks google) suggests that some are taken by the poster, some by friends of his and some have been collected from various sources.
there are too many to repost here but the story he tells is that he saw car 9 being rebuilt (a poor quality photo due to light conditions) and there are shots of car 9 in the race that really show the wear and tear :eek:
there is also a shot of car 107 in practice with the T on it and the oil door lid intact, as well as some great color ones from the race.
I could not see any really new information in the photos (ie number plate of 107 or 107T) but there are lots of great closeups showing oil lines on 107, jack point reinforcement on car 9 etc for raj :) etc
One interesting point is that I could not see any evidence of a oval shaped martini sticker on the side of the 107T car similar to the apparent lack of one on the 108T car - OR one on the #9 car when it was being repaired !
there is a good close up of car 9 that answered one of my questions - what was the sticker on the quarter window - a 57th targa sticker
I have attached a couple of the shots that interested me most to whet your appetite :)
Great photos Hugh,
One in particular may have satisfied one of my suspicions on a inconspicuous little dent in the passenger rocker panel which I assumed was missed when the car was repainted for the museum.
The photos I have are out of a japanese book on the Porsche museum published in 1980. Hugh posted a pic of the engine bay I sent him in an earlier post.
The photos I'll post hear aren't great but the ones I have on my computer I have overlayed and the shadows from the dents look to be exactly the same. I been following this thread from the start and this is the first mark I have seen that might be able to identify the actual tub its self as aposed to parts that could be swapped or changed. Or I am going completely crazy!
Attachment 42822
Attachment 42823
David
this is getting very anal.......BUT that is a very good pick up
this is a closeup of one of the other pics you sent me from the same source
the dint is definitely there in the museum car
now to find a similar picture of the 48 car at le mans :p :eek:
Hello,
Thank you for the pictures of this car. It allows me to realize this model for GTLegend.
http://www.enregistrersous.com/image...0213111206.jpg
Gentlemen:
Recently, I was fortunate enough to have my friend in Milan, Mauro Borella, interview Baron Gianfranco Pucci, the brother of Giulio Pucci, who drove the race #107 RS/RSR with Gunther Steckkonig. Gianfranco Pucci spoke with his brother and Giulio Pucci told us that "The team (Martini Porsche), came with three team cars and one training car" These would have been, acording to the factory, two Group 5 RSRs, 911 360 0588, (R6, the eventual winner), 911 360 0974 (R8), a Group 4 GT RS/RSR, (PRESUMABLY 911 360 0020, (R2) and the "Mongrel", 911 360 0002.
Pucci then says that he rolled the #9 car in first practice; The mechanics repaired the car in time for qualifying, during which Pucci hit a tree coming into Campofelice and damaged the car so badly that: "The tree went inside the body of the car until half of it, where there is the gear lever! Happily for my brother his seat was on the other side...the car was completely destroyed. But we were very happy all the same as the sister car of Muller-Van Lennep won the race overall.”
I went back through Mauro to Giulio Pucci, who confirmed that he was absolutely certain that he crashed the same car twice. He further confirmed that, in the photographs on this thread, you can see the damage caused by his first accident to R8 in the shot of it in qualifying, just before he wrecked it completely.
So that was the end of R8, 911 360 0974.
Now contrast this with Singer's recollection in his book: 24:16: "We had two bad accidents in practice, one with Pucci who bent his car very badly against a tree. We had a lot of work to straighten that car, and even on race morning we had to use a crowbar to fit a new driveshaft."
Notice that he only credits Pucci with ONE accident; I think there must have been THREE accidents in practice and qualifying; This would account for one Group 5 RSR, R8 being destroyed; This would mean that one of the "T" cars took it's place, probably 911 360 0002, which was the "Mongrel" and that the Group 4 GT car was 911 360 0020 (Race # 107, R2), which apparently, is in the Porsche Museum.
I hope this helps.
John Starkey
Hi John
That is great news that you have received some first hand information from Pucci.
BUT.........
I am confused by a couple of things in your post.
You posted that Pucci rolled car #9 which by inference was R8, and then wrote it off by hitting a tree.
But the records that I have only show him cross entered in car 107 and 108. I thought that the original car 107 (or maybe 108) was R8, which was the car destroyed, not car 9.
Also in the posts by David above (WERK1), I think he conclusively shows that the tub in the museum is / was car 9 which seems to be R2 (as claimed by the museum). I cant see the same damage that is on the tub of car 9, and on the museum car still in 1980, on either of the other cars at the targa.
Also, there seems to be enough photographic evidence to support a history of this car all the way through its different incarnations (with perhaps an exception, so far, for the Le Mans race) from its inception to the placement in the museum.
So i would have thought that if you substituted car 107 for car 9 in your post above, it all hangs together with the photographic and other written evidence as well as what the museum says:
ie modifying your words:
"I think there must have been THREE accidents in practice and qualifying; This would account for one Group 5 RSR, R8 being destroyed; This would mean that one of the "T" cars took it's place, probably 911 360 0002, as car #107 which was the "Mongrel" and that the Group 4 GT car was 911 360 0020 (Race # 9, R2), which apparently, is in the Porsche Museum."
Also do you know what Pucci means by the following statement "He further confirmed that, in the photographs on this thread, you can see the damage caused by his first accident to R8 in the shot of it in qualifying, just before he wrecked it completely."
It would be great if the post number could b pinpointed as the only damaged cars I could see were car #9 which , as I noted above, I did not think was the car that Pucci was driving.
Hello Hugh.
Well, apologies! You are right Hugh. My mistake; Of course, 911 360 0974, (R8), was car #107 in practice/qualifying for the 1973 Targa Florio; I had got mixed up with Pucci's reference to a photograph of the crashed car.
The only car I could see with damage was #9 but that was the car that must have had the third accident in practice/qualifying but was (obviously!) patched up for the race, and also received 0974's engine after that was crashed in qualifying, for the race proper.
So now we have, of the eight RSRs of 1972/3, the following summaries:
911 360 0001: Re-numbered by the factory from S/T # 911 230 0769.
911 360 0002: Re-numbered by the factory from S/T # 911 230 0841. Notable race career, vanishes after July, 1973.
911 360 0019: Supposedly R1 but never actually seems to appear.
911 360 0020: R2. The RS that is turned into an RSR in late 1972, notable race history, apparently the car in the Porsche museum, painted to represent the 1973 Targa winner.
911 360 0307: R3. This was the Penske-entered car at the Daytona 24-hours 1973 which, driven by Mark Donohue/George Follmer, damaged a piston and retired. Race no: 6. Sold to Al Holbert, crashed end of 1973, re-tubbed, (twice). Now wears chassis number of a 1975 replacement chassis.
911 360 0328: R4. 1973 Daytona 24 Hour winner. Returned to the factory afterwards, what happened to it is unclear but the chassis plate has surfaced in Italy; POSSIBLY, the car may have been rebuilt and re-numbered as the longtail RSR sent to Brumos (911 360 0686 R7) later in 1973 for the July Watkins Glen races.
911 360 0576; R5. 1973 races, crashed at the Nurburgring 1000Kms, converted into a 1974 Turbo Carrera RSR by the factory. In 2002-4, car was converted back to 1973 RSR spec. Sold to Brad Hook.
911 360 0588; R6. 1973 races, very successful, winning Vallelunga, Le Mans 4 Hours and Targa and then converted into the Penske longtail for July Watkins Glen races. Sold, restored to Targa winning spec, with Peter Kitchak.
911 360 0686; R7. European World Championship races, won GT class at the Austrian 1000Kms, converted to Longtail spec, sent to Gregg/Haywood for Watkins Glen races in July, sold to Hector Rebaque, ran Le Mans in 1974. Damaged in trailer, parts and rights sold to Diego Febles, then sold to a U.S. customer, car being restored/rebuilt.
911 370 0974; R8. Destroyed in 1973 Targa Florio practice.
So, ten cars apparently built to RSR spec in 1972/3. Six cars either written off/badly damaged/vanished/never built?
Thank you so much, "Cailler" for that Washington photos.
We can clearly see that the right rear fender on the #48 RSR, having been damaged during the Targa Florio, has been completely replaced with a new one BUT the factory racing department hadn't had time to repair the damage to the rocker panel AND repaint the car yellow and green in time for Le Mans.
So this is 911 360 0020, R2 and it appears to be in the Porsche museum today; So I wonder: Is there, somewhere in the World, a Lightweight RS 2.7 with the chassis number: 911 360 0019? Intriguing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAILLER
That Sonauto shot shows the damage to the rocker still present, but also shows external oil lines added, which were not on #9 at the TF. Nice addition to the documentation.
Gib
Fantastic photo of the 48 car. There can be no doubt in the lineage of this car from #9 to #48 to museum car.
As far as the oil lines are concerned you can see the metal tabs for the brackets on the #9 car at Targa
Attachment 42978
One thing I've noticed is that two websites on the 73 Le Mans race list chassis no's on the race cars and they list the #48 car as being 9113601033, #46 9113600686 and #47 9113600588.
Do these numbers sound right to everyone and in the right order?
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-10-photo.html
http://www.teamdan.com/archive/wsc/1973/73lemans.html
Sorry, just re read this post by Hugh which answers my question on the chassis no of the #48 car at Le Mans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HughH
Fantastic photo CAILLER :)
that is hard to beat as a first post. It (along with some of the other photos posted here) conclusively ties together the targa florio #9 car with the factory museum car and, along with other material here, there is documentary evidence through from the Tour de Corse car to the museum car
this has been an interesting adventure............. now for R1 and R4:eek:
I emailed Martin at www.racingsportscars.com the other day with a link to this page and our conclusions on the identity of the #48 car.Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK1
he has replied that he has changed the reference and it will be updated next time he uploads changes. He also advised his source for the information was Wimpffen's book Time and Two Seats.
I would add to that list..#107 from the TF...002...what ever happened to it? This would be a very valuable car today also. There has to be some factory documentation or notes somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by HughH
Gib
Gentlemen,
I looked back through my old, hand written notes of when I interviewed the late Helmuth Bott yesterday, back in 1986, at the Porsche factory. Herr Bott told me that, as far as he could remember, the Daytona winning car of Peter Gregg and Hurley Haywood had returned to the factory after the race, (There are photos extant of this) and it had then been "Verschrotten" (dismantled for inspection/broken up/scrapped), but MAY have been further developed as a "Martini Longtail". (His English was not good and my German almost non-existent!)
If we take the latter as to what DID happen to this RSR, then the only car that fits that description would be either 911 360 0686, R7 or 0588, R6. That longtail, (911 360 0588, R6) had won the Targa Florio and was then sent to the Penske team, who sold it immediately after the 1973 Watkins Glen race in July to John McLelland and is still with Peter Kitchak. So that cannot be a re-numbered R4.
Quite why the factory would have re-numbered the car, (If they did!), I have no idea but the fact that it went back again to Brumos may be a tie-in or just a coincidence. If the car was re-numbered and further developed as the Brumos Longtail, this might explain why the chassis plate of 911 360 0328 is still around, in Italy.
Just thoughts, you understand.
John
we have been thinking about R4 turning into another 1973 RSR but in longtail form
What about it being one of the 1974 RSR turbos? - they were "long tail". how many of those were there really?
R5 became one that is currently (?) at Gunnar Racing being converted back to a 73 RSR
Your book "930 to 935" suggests that the 1974 Le Mans car #21 may have been R8; and generally suggests that R8, as well as R5, may have turned into a 1974 RSR turbo
we now know that R8 was well and truly destroyed at the targa - after being wrapped around a tree it is hard to see the tub being straight enough to be a new race car :eek:
is it possible that R4 became this "other" 1973 based 1974 RSR? or is it more likely that there was only one such car - R5?
as a second suggestion even if it was turned into a 73 martini longtail it may not have raced. it may have been a T car or even just used on the test track
Hi,
There is a picture in the April issue of Excellence, page 50, showing the Porsche museum RSR no. 8 with the hood open. Is there anybody that has made a picture of the VIN plate, assuming it is there and original!
BTW, you all deserve a PhD in Porsche history, fantastic thread!
Cees
GibQuote:
Originally Posted by letsrollbabe
I think the car in the wind tunnel tests of the Mary Stuart tail is 0002 after the Targa.
The RS book calls it the targa winner but it is almost certain to be 0002 as the decals match those of car 107 at the targa and it has the unique rear flared guards. You can also see a touch of the martini center stripe above the engine lid.
besides the real targa winner would have been in preparation for le mans as R2 would have been.
so initially, at least, it may have been used as a test car at the factory, and perhaps lost part of identity in that form?
Hugh:
Yes, it's now obvious that R8 was completely destroyed in the 1973 Targa Florio and so played no further part in the Porsche racing department's history.
There were, according to the factory records, four of the 1974 RSR turbo Carrera cars built. The first was 911 360 0576, (R5). That car has now been converted back into its original RSR form by Gunnar racing.
The other three cars were built on the 1974 "G" type chassis and were:
911 460 9016 (R9).
911 460 9101 (R12).
911 460 9102 (R13).
The chassis numbering denotes lightweight chassis, originally intended to be RS/RSR 3.0s.
To all who may be interested:
Totally self-serving plug here! We, (Gryfon Publishers), are bringing out an updated book on the development and racing of the Porsche 911 to GT2. It will be called: "From R to GT2-The Racing Porsche 911 and 930s" It will, (like the previous editions), feature the racing history of these cars, including all the 934s and 935s. I have not included racing GT3s as, to be very honest, I am not particularly interested in them, believing that the air cooled 993 was the last REAL Porsche "911" racer built!
The book will be of some 800 pages and will include chassis appendices detailing the individual histories of 911Rs, T/Rs, STs, RSRs, 934s, 935s and the GT2s. Price will be $99.99 plus shipping and we are hoping to get it published by June/July this year. If you are interested in obtaining a copy, details will be published on my website, www.johnstarkeycars.com.
Just when you thought this thread was dead--Nickolay writes again!
This weekend I find out that Car #62 from Le Mans test weekend & 4 hour Le Mans was R5, not R6 as well as records show.
The Car #62 was with flag mirror and at all of the pictures that I have until 24 hour LeMans R6 (911 360 0588) do not have any mirror. Also from the pictures from Targa Florio race there is no the holes on the left door for a flag mirror.
My picture evidences for the above – please see all my remarks at attached pictures.
Also in the post #315 Hugh Hodges said: “…. I think it helps identify car 62 as not being R6 which means that it MUST be R2 IF indeed R2 was the other car there that weekend as the records seem to say. “ After a lot of time the thread emerged that R2 was Car #61 from Le Mans test weekend, but for Car #62 nothing was said then.
Attachment 43829
Attachment 43831
Attachment 43830
From Singer's Notes: #61 at LM Test was R2; #62 (and #41 at Spa) was R7!
Let the Debate Begin!!
Jim:
Another detail that ties 62 and 41 together but separates them from 8 at TF is the torsion bar hole, which is covered in these 2 shots, and not on 8 from the TF. Also, the shape/angle of the flare near the torsion hole is different looking on 8 vs. 62/41. Singer's notes would seem to be a pretty reliable source.
Gib
One reason that I have never believed that the same cars could have done both the Spa 1000 Kms and the Targa Florio in 1973 is timing; Spa was on 6th May, Targa Florio on the 13th May.
The cars would have been lucky to have left Spa on the evening of 6th May; Practice started on 9/10th May. The transporter would have had to travel from Northern Europe, all the way over the Alps, into Italy, travel the length of Italy and then catch a ferry from southern Italy to Sicily. Possible, but VERY hard to do and that's without encountering any problems on the way.
If you were planning the traveling schedule of a race team and had spare cars available, I'm sure you would have sent two different sets of cars to each of these races.
John Starkey
I forgot to point out also:
These RSRs were doing 1000 kilometer races; Some 620 miles plus practice and qualifying. Almost without fail, they would have been returned to the racing department at Weissach after each race to be checked over, probably to receive a fresh engine and gearbox and to have anything needed rectified. Another reason that the cars that raced at Spa were most probably not the same as those that raced at the Targa Florio just one week later.
John Starkey
I have the good fortune to work for a company that subscribes to the wonderful Japanese Magazine CG Car Graphic
The latest issue to the U.S. is Jan. '08.
And this article and photo shoot of vintage Le Mans Porsches including an early 356 alloy coupe, 962C, 911GT1, and of course the '73 RSR.
These were taken at the Le Mans Classic Japan 2007...
Hope you enjoy.....
.......... and
This last has the text and photo credit.....:)
Cheers
Chuck:
Thanks for posting these pix as most of us would never have seen them in the Japanese mag. It is interesting to look at these great shots and realize the changes this car has gone through, which we have documented in this thread. The car looks much better on the track than in the museum...they could almost be period shots it seems.
The VIN plate sure looks to be a bit weary, and shows its age from that renumbering in fall 72. I still wish we could get a pic of the stamped VIN behind the fuel tank to see how that looks. What are the cooling ducts going to...looks like fuel lines.
Gib
Is all the plumbing in the fuel bay for a Teldex ABS system?
Nikolay makes another point:
Do you see this picture?
I noticed that this car #107T was driven by Gijs Van Lennep (please see
the driver's helmet).
The records show: # 107 was cross entered only against GUNTHER
STECKKONIG, LEO KINNUNEN and GIULIO PUCCI. What do you think?
Attachment 44342
I'm not agree with John Starkey's presumption (post #570 & 571). During
this season Porsche used two fast silver Renntransporters and with them
they transported the race cars and spare parts, including some
replacement engines. I do not see any reason one same car would be at
Monza, Spa, Sicily, after the drivers were at these places. (please see
a part from Christophorus article).
These MARTINI Renntransporters were like "mini workshop".
I searched and couldn't find the pictures I wanted. Does anyone have a picture of the #59 car? I am also looking for pictures of the factory (Penkse) car from the 1973 Daytona 24 Hour.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Starkey
Thanks. I am sorry if its on the board, and I just have poor search abilities.
here is a photo I have never seen before, or even one similar
It was posted on the targa florio thread on Forum sport auto (well worth a close inspection and they are trying to do a wikapedia site on it as well) by ranocchio61 http://www.forum-auto.com/sport-auto....htm#t14916728
I think it shows the remains of R8 after the big crash that totalled it. The damage looks too great (and the race number is wrong amongst other things) to be the damage on R2 also crashed by pucci but repaired for the race.
Note that it is numbered as car 107 - ie the original 107 before the practice car (RS0002) was substituted for the race. Also it is clearly a 1973 car - not a 72 car as evidenced by the lack of an oil door
Hugh:
Good to hear from you again. Great find! This confirms our conclusions on the original 107, and does explain why another car would be required for the race. Even Singer's elves couldn't put this one back together again in time (or ever apparently as we never hear of R8 again). Sort of makes one think of the expression..."getting wrapped around the axle"...
Gib
Gib
you think that is a great find
you should see what else that ranocchio61 has posted on the site today. http://www.forum-auto.com/sport-auto...78358-2415.htm
I have put the best photos here
First is R2 with engine out in a garage at the targa - it looks like it is getting the red roof applied (it ran all silver at the le mans 4 hour) (there are also a couple of close ups posted there )
next, amazingly, are`two photos of the practice 107 (RS0002) being transformed into the 107 race car after R8 was totalled.
one shows the LHS with not too much detail except it already has the new bonnet with the diagonal 107 (like R8 had) rather than the horizontal one it had in practce
The last photo is best
It shows the same scene but from the rear. the licence plate is clear - LEO ZA 60! the same as on 108T in another photo (also attached) almost confirming they are the same car. (And probably putting an end to the use on the models of LEO ZA 69)
It also looks like a production RS engine in the car - certainly not the race RSR engine.
so I suspect that this was taken mid way in the transformation of the practice car RS0002 to the race car after R8 was crashed.
fantastic find! wonder if they were still to swop the engine and box, or whether it actually ran as a 2.7? They still have to take off the oil filler flap.......
this is from the same thread
I am sure it is of R8 at practice before the crash
check the details
black grills, no visible oil door, slanting numbers on bonnet, no centre stripe on scuttle, different oil cooler grill like R8 at monza) etc
PS Mike
I am certain they swapped the engine and box out of R8 into LEO ZA 60
If we had had these pictures earlier, this thread would have been much shorter! These pix are just so great in showing what really happened in the garages...the part we never got to see. I think I remember reading in one of the sources we have sited that RS002 (race 107) in practice sessions was running within 2 seconds of the lap times posted by the race engines with that little old 2.7L stock RS engine.
We still have no record of what happened to this car...did it get transformed into a later RSR (short hood) or was it quietly shuffled off to someone's garage to yet be discovered as a barn find? What a valuable car this would be!
Gib
so what was the time scale from the crash during practice, to the actual race?
How long did they have to do the 'transformation'.
There have been another 4 or 5 pages of rare photos of the 1973 martini porsches at the targa posted here http://www.forum-auto.com/sport-auto...78358-2450.htm
many of these are personal photos of the posters who were there.
There are a few goo ones of R8 before it crashed, lots of car 8 car 107 and car 9 (R2) etc but the one that fascinates me is this one of R2 car 9 in the garage after the paint job to do the red roof etc and with the engine back in.
It is showing a part of a license plate LEO ZA ??.
I have never seen a plate on this car. It is hard to tell what plate it is but it is possible to say which one it isn't!
it isn't a rear plate off leo za 60 (on 107) as that has screw holes and a red (tax?) sticker (as do the plates leo za 68 and 69 on the TDC rallye cars of 1972). This seems to be a front plate - not a rear one raising the possibility there were 2 cars using the same plate at the targa - one a front one and one a rear one :confused: .
I made me remember the comments from singer that there were 2 practice cars at the targa - one having been there for over a month.
i am wondering whether that may have been R2, with registration plates leo za ?? and before the red and blue race paint was put on, - it was silver all over at the le mans 4 hour on April 1, and possibly with a street engine not an RSR rallye / race engine?
we have pictures now of it with some registration plate, with the race paint being applied at the targa etc. There were no official appearances of R2 between the le mans 4 hour outing and the targa.
It would explain the fact that even with a lot of effort we cannot find any trace of another T car unless it is 108T which is almost certain to be the same car (RS0002) as 107T and the race 107, and even this would not be consistent with the reports of 3 race cars and 2 T cars. It would also mean that the martini squad at the targa was 4 cars not 5.
I'll admit I didn't read every post in this tread (but I did read allot of it) so I apologize if I missed something. What is the origin/meaning of LEO-ZA? Normally the first couple letters are the city code, but I have never seen a three letter prefix, and it doesn't look like a manufacture or import plate.
btw: i have actually driven 0588.
Hi
regarding the LEO ZA plates
LEO (Leonberg, a village close to Zuffenhausen,)
I don't know the significance of the ZA, if there is any, or whether it is just the sequence numbers for that time.
I understand that the rallye team around then, the werks racing team (martini) and the experimental dept used LEO plates
However the sales department used the "S" plates at that time, although S plates had been used on rallye cars in the past - ie late 1960's until at least 1972.
the homologation RS's were on LEO ZA plates; LEO ZA 63 for RS 0015; LEO ZA 64 was the Paris show car RS# 0016 ;
LEO ZA 44 was used in a brochure of an ordinary production car in 1972/3 E series “S”; LEO ZA 29 was used in a rallye car at the 1972 TAP rallye in Portugal; LEO ZA 68 and 69 were the 1972 Tour de Corse rallye cars (one being R2 in an earlier incarnation)