The real 73 RSR TF Winner - Porsche Factory Scam??

Hi Hugh, Gib, Varunan et al:

1: The commission numbers have nothing to do with the production numbers. I can only presume these commission numbers were assigned to the cars as they were ordered. Perhaps each car was then assigned its production number?

2: The LEO-ZA cars: Konradsheim recorded them in the RS Book as: "330 0789", Not built as a normal 911S until 1973, and which I think is really "230 0769" and "360 0020" which would seem to say that this car was built, or is it another typo for "360 0002?"

3: Mark Donohue, in his book "The unfair advantage" is extremely specific about testing the first RSR at Paul Ricard in November 1972 and how much he liked the ABS brake system. We know that this system was fitted to 0002, hence my belief that it was this car the factory team were testing.

4: In Norbert Singer's book, "24:16", there is a color photo of him standing at the back of a red RS 2.7 Carrera, with a ducktail and wider than standard rear wheel arches and twin exhaust pipes. The licence plate is S AK 1337. The caption says: "The Rallye Corsica was the last such event for the 911 Carrera, this car being taken to the Paul Ricard track to be transformed for circuit racing." Another photo, somewhat obscured, seems to show the front of the car and it has a white hood with spotlights attached.

5: I don't have access to a scanner at the moment and am off to Silverstone tomorrow to race, guess what? an RSR! If it hasn't been done, I'll get the 1974 Museum photoscanned next week.

6: Finally(!) Until we have more information from the factory, we are stuck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Starkey

Hi Hugh, Gib, Varunan et al:

1: The commission numbers have nothing to do with the production numbers. I can only presume these commission numbers were assigned to the cars as they were ordered. Perhaps each car was then assigned its production number?

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John,

Thanks for the follow up. I was curious about this so I pulled out the copy of the Production/Conversion order that Konradsheim sent me for my RS (451). The Komm. Nr. for my RS is SZ 031331, I assume for Switzerland where this car was delivered. It is typed on both the Production and Conversion forms. Certainly off-topic for this thread though.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1189044061.jpg

A couple of more fotos to add to the mix:

John:

The ABS brake system was installed on the Strahle car, as you suggest, and Donahue's comments certainly are an interesting piece of data to ponder. Is it possible that the factory installed another system or maybe the Strahle ABS system (after it had been removed) for further testing at Paul Ricard? I have not read anywhere that the ABS system was used on any of the RSRs in 73 or later, so Singer must not have agreed with Donahue or maybe there were problems getting the system homologated.

I am very hopefull that we can indeed get more info from factory sources to clear up the picture on these early prototypes. Only the dedicated nuts who closely follow this thread probably really care, and most on this Board would say..."what difference does it make what happened 35 years ago with these cars?"...but there are a few of us who will sleep easier when we get the real story sorted out.

Gib Bosworth

Mike:

RE: New #107

Nice car...must have been built by someone who follows this thread.

Gib

Does anyone know for certain when the wind tunnel tests on the Mary Stuart tailed car actually occurred? They were supposed to occur after the targa in may.

The RS book, page 94, states they were done "on the winning car" from the Targa implying just after the targa ie May 1973 and there is a heading stating they occurred in June 1973.

There is no doubt that the original practical tests on the tail were done at Paul Ricard in late 1972.

Also I have a picture of R6 at Monza`running in sports class with a Mary Stuart tail (pic 3) where it was found that despite the added drag the higher corner speeds allowed improved lap times. This had also been the experience at Paul Ricard.

The reason is that I think, on the basis of pictorial evidence, the car used was 107 renumbered, perhaps for sponsorship reasons, as # 3 (maybe its original number as the press car prior to the targa).

The wind tunnel photo shows a distinctive decal directly above the front wheel, that was present on 107 at the targa but not on #8 or #9.

Gib and others have also pointed out other features of this wind tunnel car that resemble the press car and the "strahle" car.

I am wondering, IF it is #107 (RS 002) in the museum after all, and after carrying out the wind tunnel tests in June it was pensioned off to be displayed. In that case it would be a 72 car an perhaps as important in its own right as the Targa winner.

it would be ironic if the only car that did NOT run a mary stuart tail at the Targa was the one that was used to do the wind tunnel tests.

If car 020 really was at Le Mans I cant see that it would have been able to do the tests and there is no suggestion that the actual winning car R6 was the car involved - besides it was at le mans in June.

It would be very interesting to see the production number on the dash........................:eek: :D :D

Hugh;

Good catch of the unique decal above the left front wheel of 107 and the wind tunnel tests, which is just one more piece of evidence that confirms which car this is. Interesting that the right side front fender of 107 does not have that decal as seen in the race photo at the turn.

It doesn't seem to make sense that the factory would not have the correct VIN for the museum car, especially since it was put there sometime in 74 or 75. Another detail to consider....looking closely at the stripes between the top of the hood and windscreen on the museum car and earlier shots of 107 show that the wipers are placed differently within the stripes. This would suggest that the museum car is not 107, or the stripes were redone in that area when the car was restored...which is possible.

We know the oil door was removed on the museum car at some point, and it could have been when the car was redone to fit FIA rules for LeMans as the Sonauto car. RSR 1033 was built in April 73, and was sent to France according to the RS book data, so it is possible that it could have raced at LeMans under the Sonauto colors, but this seems to go against factory records.

Another piece of data that keeps haunting me is the Wagenpass document showing the press car #3 as 020 R2, and looking at the Martini oval, it appears to be the same placement as the earlier picture for the press car, which is clearly the #107 car. The #9 car has a different Martini oval placement in the TF photo, which would suggest it isn't 020 R2. As I noted earlier, it's possible the Wagenpass document has the wrong VIN, but I think that is not likely as this would be checked by some official somewhere at a border crossing.

Does this mystery seem to be evolving into an Oliver Stone movie?

Gib

Varunan123
You are back to 002 and 020 R2 being the same car, and that may be the answer as John Starkey suggests, although I don't think the factory would have restamped 002 to 020...no real need it would seem. I think the explanation would be, as has been said before, that there was confusion in documentation over "RS 2 being 002 rather than 020 R2".

If we follow this line of reasoning, the Strahle car then gets modified with ST rear flares to be the Larrousse car at the Tour de Corse, which later goes to Paul Ricard for track testing after being modified "back" to RSR form and using those ABS brakes that could have still have been on the car from the Strahle days. It would then become the press car #3, and then go to the Targa to race as #107.

One problem with this scenario is that those rear flares and mud flap on the rear flare from the Strahle and press car days remain in pictures all the way through the Targa, so that makes the Tour de Corse scenario with this car unlikely, but not impossible I guess.

We would still need to come up with another 72 chassis that ended up as #9 at the TF, and maybe that would have been 001 (or 019 R1) whichever it really was and maybe that was E42.

Oliver Stone would love this story.

Gib

Gib said

"Good catch of the unique decal above the left front wheel of 107 and the wind tunnel tests, which is just one more piece of evidence that confirms which car this is. Interesting that the right side front fender of 107 does not have that decal as seen in the race photo at the turn."

Yes......... I cant see any photo that does have a sign that this decal is there on the RHS.

However the good B&W photo at the Targa that you posted of 107 does show a part of the distinctive two tone "Martini Racing" decal above the REAR wheel and that is also on the wind tunnel car AND can just be made out on the colour pic at the turn that was posted on post #246.

Indeed on a close look at that COLOUR photo of the RHS of 107 at the targa, the Martini racing is two tone with the "racing" part in a lightish blue and very hard to see against the silver. (the other cars have shell and Dunlop there or some have Bosch)

From the pics at the wind tunnel it is easier to see the "racing" on the LHS but even then it is clear that in black and white the colour blends with the silver of the car.

I wonder if there is a colour photo of the press pic? I looked at the "original" I have in a book (with the snow on the side of the track) and cant see the "Racing". HOWEVER the spacing of the decal for Martini is exactly where it should be for the whole decal to be there.

So I am postulating that not only the strange decal on the front ties 107 with the wind tunnel pics BUT the "martini racing" seen in the colour pic in a similar position to the #9 car, ties the car pictorially to both the wind tunnel car AND the press car!

However the decal on the front LHS was not present on the press car at the press conference so must have been added later.
Does anyone know what it is?

sorry

bad expression on my part - I am too tired to be doing this tonight. I meant that the photo of the car was at the bend next to the buildings in the same spot as the car #9 photo as opposed to the other photos of car 107.

and speaking of other photos I have JUST now found a brand new one to me of 107 and a bunch of car 8 ones - its a pity they are of car 8 instead of 9 or 107
enjoy