and one more............... as well as the 107 photo that i was trying (badly) to describe
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and one more............... as well as the 107 photo that i was trying (badly) to describe
no magazine
an Italian targa florio web / forum site that i am still trying to get to grips with
http://targaflorio.forumup.it/
Hugh, those pictures are PHENOMENAL! FANTASTIC find!! Although my Italian sucks, I plan to mine that site for all its worth.
Great job, and thanks for sharing
Excellent thread!
All I can contribute at this stage is that the headlights worked perfectly on race car #8 ;) .
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I have this picture which I believe is of one of the Martini Racing cars at the Targa - see the primitive Mary Stuart similar or identical as done at the Targa on the other cars, and dirt on the tyres.
It is NOT race number 8 - that car had SHELL decals on the rear guards - see next pic
It is not race #107 as it has the unique Martini Racing decal on the rear guard as also seen in the wind tunnel shots and besides 107 did not have the Mary Stuart tail. See picture in the race with "martini racing" just visible
It is almost certain not the original 107 (thought to be R8 from Monza) as the Mary Stuart tails seemed to have been added after practice (from the video evidence) and the original 107 was crashed and ceased to participate further before that happened. However that still is a possibility.
It is NOT the car that was # 9 in the race as it was in the race as it had a SHELL decal on the rear bumper and completely different livery on the engine lid although it may have had Bilstein and Dunlop on the rear guard, and the martini stripe going up to the roof is similar (but to my mind NOT IDENTICAL) to this photo.
The #9 photos I have are too indistinct (or my eyes are not good enough) to tell what the decals on the rear guards are on the race #9.
However I would like to suggest that this may be car #9 at some stage in practice - before it had its reported accident.
Mary Stuart tails were only allowed on Sports class cars (not on GT class). The race photos of car 9 show apparent damage (roughly repaired) to the RHR guard - making it look somewhat like one of the pics of the LEO- ZA cars from Paul Ricard. They also show a probable non original engine lid (it looks almost like it has been taken off a road car - there is no martini livery), and the rear bumpers have 3 slots for the exhaust and there is no colour on the license plate panel that is completely inconsistent with the treatment on car 8.(and the Martini cars at other events)
Maybe the picture I have posted IS car #9 before the accident that Pucci is supposed to have had in it (I know another topic as to whether it was Pucci and why would he be in that car anyway:) ) . The accident could have been putting the back / back RHS into something hard, necessitating a new rear bumper, engine lid and RHR guard repair??
The other possibility is that it is AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT car #9 and the car #9 in the race was a second "ring in". I don't think that , so far, there is enough evidence to seriously suggest this and what evidence there is suggests that the car was damaged and repaired.
Any comments / other suggestions ? and does anyone have any background on this top photo?
Jim,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Calzia
Thanks, I have been trawling through various (mostly European) sites looking for photos of the Targa and Tour de Corse back from 1972 and 1973.
I figure there must have been hundreds of thousands of people at those events, and many will have taken photos. Therefore there must be amateur or non published photos around of the cars in question that are taken from a different angle and will show detail that may help explain which car was which. Some of these must have made their way onto web sites in recent years.
So far i have looked thru about 600 pages of TdC photos with no new ones but this set from the Targa has made it worth while.
Interestingly I have found that search engines don't really help much, they cant see well inside forums etc , or at least for photos , probably because the photos are not directly labeled on the site. This makes the search somewhat time consuming but in turn throws up some other interesting material - like all the Strahle 356 photos from the TdC that I posted on the "historical photos " thread
Hi
There is no doubt that none of the cars ran the Mary Stuart tails in practice. (or at least for some of the practice) Maybe that was so they could get some comparative times.
Previous experience at Monza and at Paul Ricard would have given them data on the effectiveness of those tails - especially on a tight windy course like at the Targa.
There was no restrictions on using the tail in Sport class (it was the prototype class) only in GT. According to reports I have read, that is why, when they were protested against at Monza and put into sport class, they put the big tails on.
On the SHELL decal, I don't think they would have covered one sponsors sticker with another's. At other events different team cars sometimes run different minor sponsors. I think it MAY be a way to identify the car. They also ran different shaped backgrounds (roundels) for the race numbers as well - some with round ones some with rectangular ones - I am not sure why - maybe to help in identification. For example at Le Mans in 1973 the 46 car had a round background and the 47 had one rectangular and one round. Also some of the minor sponsors decals were placed in different positions.
From the B&W photo of the 9 car at the pit stop I can't see any evidence of a SHELL decal. I cant make it out properly but the one that is there looks more like Bilstein to me. I suspect the SHELL one would be more visible if it was there.
On the other hand all the photos I have of the 8 car show the SHELL decal in that spot. That suggests that the car in the picture is probably not the 8 car, I am certain it is not 107 - so what is it?
this is the picture that John Starkey was talking about in post 251: the #48 Sonauto car with the big wheels
I cant tell from this what chassis it is and whether it might be 020.
varunan123
the point you make on the shell sticker looking like it is over the tape is good. I also agree that the supports to the added on bits of the tail look the same as on car 8. Maybe it is car 8 at an earlier point - but still at the Targa. They might have had a couple of goes at getting it right.
I think there are no reflectors - it is more likely shadow or a trick of the light.
I got Singers book 24:16 today. Some interesting reading and pics but it does not add a lot here (plenty of scope for a very detailed book on these early cars). I also had a hunt around the bookshop and saw a big pic of 107 in practice trim that I had not seen before in a new book on the Targa (but did not feel up to the $300 for the book just for the one photo that really did not add any new info)
Singer does say that :
- two cars were entered as prototypes and one in GT (We know that all 3 eventuallly ran in proto)
- Pucci was entered in the GT car (107)
- there were 2 bad accidents iin practice
- "one" with Pucci who bent his car very badly against a tree
- they had a lot of work to do to straighten that car and even on race morning they had to use a crowbar to fit a new driveshaft
- the spoilers were to make the cars more stable at high speed and the proto cars had 917 brakes
- it was only after Monza (2 weeks before the Targa) that a policy to enter in proto class (mostly) so as to not to compete with customers started. This had the added advantage of being able to continually develop new parts to homologate for 1974
- the protest from an Italian customer team that made them decide to enter in proto class was due to a decision to replace a teflon rear pick up bearing with a low friction ball bearing (soon before the race)
I have to say , that if asked whether 107 or 9 looks most like a car that had been wacked against a tree and was still being fixed with crowbars - especially in the rear - on race morning, I would say that 9 looks more likely than 107 based on the pictures we have here. And that would be consistent with factory records that 020 was race car 9 and that Pucci had bent it. But why would Pucci have been in 9 to start with? Maybe because Haldi was never going to be in it until the last minute??
Is it plausible to argue:
- R8 was originally entered in GT as 107 and practiced but was totalled by someone (unknown at this stage)
- 020 was originally entered as car 9 with Pucci in Sport was damaged in practice by Pucci but still raced
- 002, the press car, which was down there as a T car (aka Mongrel or E42), was drafted as a second 107 with R8's engine and front bonnet amongst other parts
- Pucci bent 020 but it was fixed in time for the race however by that time he had been put to car 107 with Haldi being drafted for car 9