The real 73 RSR TF Winner - Porsche Factory Scam??

varunan123

Thanks. I have been through this source as well. (along with a couple of others that purport to show the chassis numbers of the various cars in each race eg http://wsrp.ic.cz/)

All of them show the entries for the Spa race as R6 (car 40) after being at Monza and before it went to the Targa, and R5 (car 41).

I don't think that this is correct and I think that I what John Starkey posted as well as the two cars from Monza (R6 and R8) are supposed to have gone straight from there to the Targa and, if so, R6 couldn't have been at Spa - especially in the tight time line.

I went through each of the pictures I have for each of those races the other night, looking at telltale signs such as colour of recognition marks on the cars (red yellow green highlights etc which may change from race to race but looking for consistency), type of mirror, colour of mirror (both less likely to change from race to race) centre lock wheels v 5 stud, type of front and rear spoiler, width of rear wheels, wiper position, type of martini livery etc. I also looked at what each of the sources said was the car for each race entry.

While it is not perfect, and the sources that we have been relying on may have indeed been using written factory records as source data, I think the two cars at Spa are wrongly identified and both are different to what is in these sources.

I think that Jim Calzia is doing a book on these so he may have better info.

However I think at SPA on May 6, 1973:

Car 40, George Follmer (USA)/Reinhold Jöst (D), with yellow recognition marks and a black racing mirror, is R5 - not R6 as claimed. After the Spa race R5 was next seen at Nürburgring on May 27 But running in GT +1.6 class (was this a special 2 litre engine – I don’t think I have ever heard about this before). At that race (car 66) it still had yellow recognition colours and the black mirror.

In the races prior to Spa, R5 was at Dijon as car 26 on 15 April, and there it had a black racing mirror but red recognition markings and its first race was at Vallelunga on 25 March 1973 where it had red recognition and no apparent mirrors. In all cases it had the standard bodywork and Martini U shaped colours.

Car 41, Gijs van Lennep / NL Herbert Müller / CH , is credited as being R5, however I think it is R7 (0686) which is not shown as having raced until the 1000 km Nürburgring on 27 May 1973 although it was built in February.

It not only has the chrome racing mirror (not seen before then on any car) but also a full fiberglass rear Mary Stuart tail. Both of these features are seen on car 6 at Nürburgring (which is R7) although the wheels and back guards look wider there than there were at Spa.

One of the reasons I don’t think the “tail photo” in post #292 is at Spa, but is from the Targa, is this full fiberglass tail, not the makeshift one at the Targa (even though the Targa was after Spa). Picture of tail on car 41 at Spa below.

In response to the other post I have the car 8 in your picture as R7 at Zeltwig – the same car as the Nurburgring car 6 (where it had its wipers to the right) and the Le Mans car 46 (where again it has wipers to the right, arrow livery, and chrome mirror). It had centre-lock wheels at Le Mans and Zeltwig, but I don’t have a good enough picture at Nurburgring or Spa to tell. Note it has only one wiper at Zeltwig, even though it is parked on the left. I can’t tell if any of these cars had an opening rear window or not.

This means that BOTH the 9 car and the 107 car at the targa increasingly look the odd ones out, from livery, mirrors, presence of oil door, wipers etc.

I am warming to the idea that the Museum car is R2 (020) AND was the #48 Sonauto car at Le Mans as claimed by the museum and reported by Milou.

Assuming it was also the #9 Targa car for a minute, and it was taken back to the factory and repaired, including 2 new rear quarter panels, the following can be argued:

The first photo of the 48 cars shows what looks to be silver trim around the RHS rear light cluster. This is consistent with the targa photos. More importantly you can see the Le Mans lights for the racing numbers mid way down the rear of the door.

After the race it appears to be used as a test mule for VERY wide wheels - next pic. In this experiment all of the rear quarter panels are cut away but the rest of the car is intact.

Then If you assume it is rebuilt as a museum / promo car (by this time the 1973 season is about over) it is THEN used for magazine articles, including the Paul Frere drive and article.

The next picture shows a close up of him with the car. Note the hole in the door panel at about the correct spot for a Le Mans light. It is present in the other photos but I had not noticed it before thinking it was a mark on the photo. This one is very clear though with the screw holes also visible.

Obviously with all the rear quarter panels being off for the testing, and then the car being "restored", it would have easy to not only replace the quarter panels but also redo the oil tank set up. Indeed that may have been done before Le Mans if there was a fair bit of damage to repair - as the reports seem to indicate.

So the outer panels are not likely to give an indication of the oil tank system by that time.

We know from the museum photos earlier on this thread that some signs of a 72 oil system still exist on the inner panels and door frame. So there is nothing here inconsistent with the Museum car being also the 48 car at Le Mans (in fact it is likely) and that is still consistent with the car originally being based on a 1972 shell.

From the posts above it is also the #62 car at the Le Mans test weekend, and although the picture is not conclusive there does not appear to be an oil door in that picture either. Also in that picture the rear quarter panel looks "normal" for a 73 car and not like the 72 Strahle car.

Finally it is also supposed to be the #2 LEO-ZA-69 Targa Corse car. I can't see an oil door in any of the pictures of that car either.

What if the Targa Florio photo is the odd one out - the car may be R2 BUT what if the accident with the tree that Pucci is supposed to have had with the car necessitated the replacement of the whole RHS rear quarter panel AND / OR the rough grafting on of wider flares? The rough work on the whole of the rear guard is clearly visible in the photo.

It may even be a replacement quarter panel. I think it is important to clearly look at the photos / video of car #9 in practice before the accident as the only ones here are after the accident and repair.

Whether or not John Starkey's speculation that it is ALSO car 002 remains unclear.

I went and found a copy of the book by Busing, Cotton, Davenport, Muller, and Oursler's "PORSCHE 911 in Racing" to have a close look at the ONS Pass that Chuck posted a long time ago for 020 R2 (and I have posted again below.)

After studying the original closely I have no doubt that this is the Press car in the photo. The oil door is clearly visible, as is the bonnet with its unique fuel filler hole (Different to the LEA-ZA cars and the later cars except for one version of 107 at the targa) etc. The only thing of significant difference to the press car is the extended lip on the front spoiler.

Given that the document was dated 16 March 1973, and the 4 hour Le Mans was on 1 April, and by that time R2 looked quite different (the 62 car below), I am wondering if the ONS pass used the photo of the ACTUAL car - ie confirming that 002 was also 020 as shown in the documentation, OR whether they used a REPRESENTATIVE photo of the car only - meaning that 020 and 002 could still be different cars.

Does anyone know? - Gib? Jim?

Also while I was looking at the book - I will have to buy it: it is fantastic - I saw a different photo of car 48 at Le Mans. This clearly shows the area where an oil door would be, BUT equally clearly shows it is NOT there.

So IF 020 is the car pictured on the ONS document, and also the 48 car at Le Mans 3 months later (and between that it did the 4 hour Le Mans trials as 62 and the Targa as car 9) sometime in that time it must have had surgery to change its 1972 oil system for a 1973 one.

While that is not hard in terms of the factory's skills, given the 1972 system does not appear to be there for Le Mans 4 hour, does for the Targa, not again for Le Mans AND the records show BOTH 020 (as car 9) and 002 (as race car 107) at the Targa I am still leaning towards the view there are two separate cars and the 002 photo was used for the 020 ONS document rather than this document actually depicting chassis 020.

I know John Starkey ha a different view but I am struggling to see how they could be the same car.

I think the car in the ONS photo IS the 107 car at the Targa and it IS RS 002, ex a 72 ST, ex the Strahle car, and while it is pictured on the ONS pass as 020 R2, I believe it is a different car to 020.

However I dont know why the ONS document would show a picture of a different car, unless it was a representative photo only. I had thought, until now, that the ONS document is like the FIA document today that shows the actual car - but maybe not.

Perhaps someone out there can clear this up.

I think 020 was built in Oct 72, did the TdC as car #2 in November (it had black horn grills light surrounds etc and "normal" looking rear guards) then MAYBE/PROBABLY the Paul Ricard test, then the Le Mans test and 4 hour as car #62, then WENT TO the Targa as car 9 and then did Le Mans as car 48 before being the museum car

HOWEVER I am still not sure whether or not the car pictured on this thread as car 9 at the targa IS 020.

This is because, apart from this ONS document which I think is NOT 020, I have not seen any other evidence of an oil door on 020 (except in the Targa shots) and the other pictures of cars that are supposed to be 020 do not seem to have oil doors.

Granted some of the pictures do not show the oil door area well, and it would be good to get close ups of TdC car 2, the Le Mans test car, and car 9 at the targa in practice to make sure.

However i have been looking for these for a long time now and fear that they do not exist, in the public arena at least.

I think 002 and 020 R2 are 2 separate cars, and they ran as 107 and 9 respectively at the Targa. Even though no oil door is visible in the TdC pictures of the red/white rally version of 020 R2, the shots of this car at Paul Ricard with tacked on flares is the very best evidence that this car is #9 at the TF, plus the red top and no other Martini sponsorship evidence. I don't think there is another RSR proto that had the tacked flares, and these are very easily spotted in photos.

Besides, there is just no other explanation that makes sense for the indisputable pics of 9 and 107 in the TF. There appears to be too much factory documentation that supports that both cars existed, including Singer's notes. The ONS document (Wagenpass) is clearly the press car, which means it is 002 not 020 R2, so the document data and picture are not consistant. As Hugh suggests, there is probably a good explanation for this, so we should not get too disjointed over it.

Gib

Gib
I am with varunan123 on the "tacked on flares".
I think it is a coincidence that the car has tacked on flares at two different times.

At the Paul Ricard test there were experimenting with suspension placement, wheel width etc so the rear quarter panels would have been played about with a lot.

At the Targa the 9 car had a big accident with a tree. It was obviously damaged around the rear as Singer is quoted as saying they were still trying to fit the driveshaft by using a crowbar on the morning of the race. So I think the tacked on flare there is a result of the accident - not the same as at Paul Ricard.

Also apart from the fact that the factory would be wanting to present professional and well finished cars at all events, there is pictorial evidence of 020 at Le Mans practice with perfect rear flares.

To me the important aspect is that we think that 002 and 020 are two different cars - rather than the same car as John Starkey is postulating. That still does not address his theory that 001 and 019 R1 might be the same car, but I would think it makes it less likely.

I do not believe car 62 shown in earlier photos is 020 R2. It looks to be (as Hugh pointed out) a newly built RSR with all the Martini trim. We still haven't seen the picture of car 61 at the 4 Hr LeMans (right?), and it appears the drivers switched cars from the test to the 4 hr event...right? So it is possible that 020 R2 is car 61, so we don't know what it looked like on that date. Mixing drivers and car numbers in records could be the problem.

I agree that it is very unlikely this car was taken back and forth between a 72 rally car converted to RSR, to new looking 73 RSR, and then taken back to a 72 oil system with paint on the top of the car that matched the Paul Ricard tests, but not the 4 Hr Lemans. If we could find a picture of car 61, maybe we coulde clear this up a little more.

It is possible that the damage to car 9 was the reason for the tacked on flares, but it is also possible they were there all along, and the damage was underneath to the drive train CVs and axles with body damage to the rear panel, muffler area. Without pics or notes, it is hard to tell, and they probably exist somewhere.

Another clue is that the rear bumper on 020 R2 as car 9 still has the rally 3rd outlet, and is narrower than the flares in several shots, which means it was still the rally bumper that didn't match the tacked on flares...and this ties it to the Paul Ricard configuration.

Being changed to the Sonauto car for Lemans is plausible, and I think that is when the oil system was probably changed and clean rear quarters were added before the new yellow paint. So the only scenario that doesn't fit is based on car 62 being 020 R2, and maybe that is wrong. Not seeing the oil door in the pics of 020 R2 in its red/white rally trim are inconclusive I think because the pics just don't show enough sharp detail to make that conclusion.

Gib

I don't believe these have been posted yet:

Curt

No they had not been posted yet (although I had seen the last one of them in a book on the Targa but had not been able convince the bookshop owner to scan them - or justify buying the book at over $300 for just one picture).

I also had not seen the fantastic picture that you just posted on the "random historical" thread of Martini car 62. (and I have reposted here - thanks Curt!!!!!

As I noted on the other thread I am certain that this is R2 at the Le Mans test weekend. I can't see if it is Muller (red helmet with white cross) or van Lennep (Malboro red helmet with white triangle shape) in this latest color picture but it is definitely van Lennep in the black and white one (also posted again for easy reference)

What is so great about the latest picture is that it clearly shows there is no oil door.

If this is R2, which according to factory and race records it is, it appears to be a 1973 shell and it is hard to reconcile this picture with the one of car 9 at the Targa.

The records show that Van Lennep ONLY drove car 62 at this weekend although Muller drove both 61 and 62. The B&W photo shows both van Lennep driving, and as has been noted before a "flag" mirror.

The 61 car that weekend is supposed to be R6, the Targa winner. It was racing before and after the Le mans test and on both sides of that weekend had NO mirror.

While that is not conclusive I think it helps identify car 62 as not being R6 which means that it MUST be R2 IF indeed R2 was the other car there that weekend as the records seem to say.

I agree with you.......... but all the sites I have seen that have race records show that 62 is R2 and it has van Lennep and Muller as drivers.
there is one site http://www.teamdan.com/archive/wsc/1973/73leman4.html
that show the drivers entered and that shows schurti and koinigg as entered but not driving 62 and driving 61.

One other thing that does puzzle me is that the 62 car pictured is running in GT3000 class (Decal "GTS" rather than "S" for sport 3.0 class). All the records I have handy show car 62 in sport 3.0 and car 61 in GT for the 4 hour race and both practicing in S3.0 for the test session.

Maybe that was just tactical to get positioning for the main race and to see if they could pick up 2 class wins by entering one car in each class

It just shows that we need to see a picture of 61 to get more info