that would make sense but the car you showed and those two guys (muller and van Lennep) certainly qualified
i was interested to see if the other martini car (61) was shown or there were other angles of the car
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that would make sense but the car you showed and those two guys (muller and van Lennep) certainly qualified
i was interested to see if the other martini car (61) was shown or there were other angles of the car
Hi
great pick up on the holes for the flag mirror.
I am pretty certain that this car did do Le Mans with the holes in the door for the lights as I posted above.
The other "Le Mans" feature it has when being tested by Frere are the small lights on the front quarter panels near the lights. See pics of the Frere test and the 48 car at Le Mans for comparison. All the factory cars (46, 47 and 48) has identical lights at Le Mans.
So I think I accept it was the 48 car, then it did the test track with big wheels and the rear quarters cut off to fit them so when it was put back together for the museum that was all new metal and if there had been an oil door it would have gone then .
I don't think this was the "8" car from Zeltwig. That is recorded as being R7 and anyway at Zeltwig the "8" car id not have any telltale le mans signs that are still on this car when being tested by Frere.
The other thing is that the 8 car at Zeltwig had a central martini stripe but NOT an arrow - it had livery like the original press car.
Therefore I am willing to agree to the factory story that this was not a replica of any particular car but a "representation" of the cars over the year.
I do not believe that ANY car ran with the exact livery and number combination represented by the museum car although the 46 car did carry that livery (including the Porsche crest) at Le Mans.
I am with you there :)Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
also on the question of the visibility of oil doors I have been noticing IF it is there, the panel gap, and thus the ease of identifiaction, is much more than for the door gap - so IF you can see the door gap, and not the oil door, it is very likely that there is no oil door.
Also I am yet to be convinced that the Tour de Corse version of R2 had an oil door or looked anything different to a "new" 73 RS (except for ST-like front guards which are also RSR type flares), so I would agree with you that the "odd one out" appears to be car 9 at the targa - or at least the photos we have been looking at. And I think it needs to be proved that R2 was not at the TDC as car #2 rather than it was.
So far as history after Le Mans, I am as comfortable as I can be that the 48 car at Le Mans was a factory prepared car (the small lights at the front are a giveaway - they are identical to other factory cars 46 and 47 and do not appear on any other Porsche I have pictures of at that race or at any other race in 1973). I am comfortable it is also the 48 car ar the test track with the very wide wheels.
Following that I am convinced there is enough pictorial evidence to show it was then the Frere car shown here and also the car in the colour pic on post 289 with what loooks like a journalist driving it. The livery is slightly different to the museum car now, and the frere car, and the small le mans lights are still there on that pic.
I am relatively confident that this is STILL the car at the museum even though it has ovviously been restored since then, and some small details have changed (le mans lights , holes in door for mirror and lights, shape of arrow and porsche crest decal on front bonnet - changed between the Frere test and the colour pic but the same as today, wipers, extra non period decals now on it etc)
But it has not gotten us far with whether it is car #9 at the targa..............
Going right back to Jim Calzia's quote about cars at the targa on post #92 from Jantke that was written at the time ....
"Manfred Jantke wrote in the August 1973 Christophorus that a training car (Mongrel) was stationed in Cefalu three weeks before the race; Singer and the Martini Racing Team arrived on May 9 with three race cars: R2 (9113600020), R6 (9113600588), R8 (9113600974), and one training car E42 (9113600002)." (my emphasis)
It certainly leaves open the question of two cars available for substitution - RS 002 for R8 as car 107 and the "training car (Mongrel)" for R2 as car 9:confused: . that would certainly fit with photographic evidence if not with official written records.
Don't we have to keep digging for photos and video of car #9 in practice as well as in the race at the Targa to advance this any further?
Probably stupid and info you allready have seen, but have you studied all the 72/73 TF videos on Youtube? Link to one of many:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfVeBqtZ3JY
Thank you for all the info you guys are digging up.
John
I am not sure about that.............
Isn't this a form to identify that this car is a group 4 car - ie special GT of which 500 identical cars must be made.
The regs seem to say that:
d) Identical: by "identical" cars are meant cars belonging to one and the same fabrication series and which have the same coachwork(outside and inside), same mechanical components and same chassis (even though this chassis may be amalgamated with the coachwork in case of a unitary construction)."Mechanical components" include all parts for the propulsion, suspension, steering and braking system and all accessories whether moving or not which are necessary for their normal functioning (such as for instance, electric accessories).
By chassis is meant the structure of the car which holds mechanical components and coachwork together, and includes any structural part which is located below the horizonta! plane passing through the centre of the wheel hubs."
and about the document:
"Recognition forms: all cars recognized by the FIA shall be the subject of a descriptive form called recognition form on which shall be entered all data enabling identification of the said model.
To this effect only the standard recognition forms and standard additional form for "normal evolution of the type" and "variant" approved by the FIA shall be used by all ACNs.
The production of the forms at scrutineering and/or at the start may be required by the promoters who will be entitled to refuse the participation of the entrant in the event in case of non-production.
In case of any doubt remaining after the checking of a model of car against its recognition form, the scrutineers would have to refer either to the maintenance booklet published for the use of the.make's distributors or to the general catalogue
in which are listed all spare parts.
It will rest with the competitor to obtain the recognition form and, if need be, the additional forms concerning his car, from the ACN of the manufacturing country of the vehicle.
Whenever the scrutinizing of a car shows the complete compliance of it with its recognition form, in as much as is required for the group in which it is admitted, there
is no need to worry about its year of fabrication.
Therefore, the chassis and engine numbers which may be mentioned on the recognition form are not to be taken into consideration."
This document identifies the car as a special GT car (Group 4), and gives all the relevant homologation particulars and identifies its chassis number. As all the cars are supposed to be identical, wouldn't it be a reasonable expectation that one photo of a representative car was used for all ONS forms for similar cars??
or is that not how it worked?
Who out there can tell us for sure?
varunan123
Also you stated
"The legend on the ONS document says rallye car converted to special GT ready to race-suggesting 0020 was 0002."
But doesn't the explanation that R2 was a rallye car at the TdC for Larrousse and then converted to a track car following the Paul Ricard testing also fit this explanation without 002 being involved?
or am I missing something here?
A major problem with 002 and 020 being one and the same is then which car is #9 at the TF, and besides other documented comments that would keep them as two separate cars. What other RSR would there be for #9 if it isn't 020? If #107 is 020 then could E42 as #9 be Frank's former RSR that was restored by Kevin Jeanette? (Are we into Kennedy conspiracy theory now?)
Quote from post 105
016
i 'm pretty sure rs#016 was used as press car then there was an accident in practice of the targa and it was pressed into service for the race;the car beneath it's paint had original factory martini strips,it was built in 7/72 with a
'72 shell.I don't know were it is today,I SOLD IT TO KEVIN JEANETTE,I think he sold it to phil bagley
__________________
frank gallogly #264
Gib
Dear Hugh,
"This document identifies the car as a special GT car (Group 4), and gives all the relevant homologation particulars and identifies its chassis number. As all the cars are supposed to be identical, wouldn't it be a reasonable expectation that one photo of a representative car was used for all ONS forms for similar cars??
or is that not how it worked?
Who out there can tell us for sure?"
You are looking at the "Wagenpass" of 911 360 0020. Each race car in Germany had it's own ONS Wagenpass, (Logbook), stating it's identity, what group it ran in, with photos, and then a list of the races it did, together with a signature by ech race entry of the scrutiner.tech official of the ONS attending the race. I have seen many of them!
One interesting by product of this system: When :"foreigners", bought race cars from Germany, they didn't often know about this special logbook nd the previous owner kept them; most did so innocently but there are some "replicas" in Europe, complete with Wagenpasses as the real cars are in America!
John Starkey
thanks John for that clear explanation.
I knew that the cars each had their own logbook with all the details but was not sure whether or not in a team of supposedly identical cars like the factory team they might not use one photo for a number of documents.
However the important point which you have clearly stated is that IF the wagenpass for 020 is around (which you would think the factory would have given it was a factory team and the car has never lt factory ownership) it would be an independantly signed record of each race it was in.
One would have thought that this was the source of the factory museum information which Milou posted.
As a further hypothesis, IF the wagenpass for 020 was issued in March 73, as a Special GT car, following the homologation of the cars, there must have been a previous one in another guise to cover its previous life as a rallye car at the TDC and anything else that it did in between.
Isn't that likely to be the reference to "previously a rally car" and also why the TDC is not mentioned on the information from the museum?
Also given the Martini team was a factory team, and they were meticulous in keeping records, isn't it likely that the real identity of car #9 and car #107 is as the factory states ?
.........................
I agree Curt Fantastic pictures!! :D :D
One thing that I have been meaning to ask.
What is the sticker on the RHS quarter window of car 9 and car 8? Is it a scrutineering tag for the Targa or something else special for that event?.
I have not seen it on any other photo of any other martini race car in 1973.
Interestingly it is on both car 8 and car 9 BUT not on the second version of car 107 which we know to be a replacement car.
IF it was something affixed to the car at the start of the event it could be argued that the pic of car 9 is of the car entered - not of a replacement car and thus "what you see is what you get" with respect of the oil door.