Thanks for the help that Hugh. I'm kind into license plates. "S" plates would have been on any car registered in Stuttgart, (or a suburb of Stutgart), which is why most factory cars have S plates.
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Thanks for the help that Hugh. I'm kind into license plates. "S" plates would have been on any car registered in Stuttgart, (or a suburb of Stutgart), which is why most factory cars have S plates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
Raj
this is a photo of 107 in the race from the targa thread on forum sport auto that i gave the link to above
the answer is dual exhaust. It was either a spare race engine for R8 out of the truck of spares (I think so) or the RSR engine out of R8 (less likely)
Hugh:
It looks like this photo may have been the inspiration for the painting shown earlier on this thread.
Gib
I noticed while looking at allot of these pictures that some RSRs didn't have the front mounted oil cooler style bumper. Why is that? When did it begin? Where these bumpers ever made of steel?
Raj
i cant open it
the link takes me to a password page that says in french that i cant enter
Raj
FANTASTIC
I don't know how I missed that when it was posted by Karim
i have never seen some of that before - especially the tangerine mule with the cut out flares testing the wide wheels.
the tangerine mule looks fascinating - my guess would be that it was a 1969, maybe 1970, factory rallye car being adapted as a ST track car - testing wheel widths, suspension settings or maybe as an early test for the RSR spec (although I think it is earlier than that).
It is hard to tell which car it is from this however. from the colour, roundals, lights placement, front bumpers, etc i would put my money on a 69 ......but not confidently
i would be interested in others comments - maybe it deserves a thread of its own
is it possible to just cut that amount out and post it separately?
I THOUGHT THAT 017 WAS THE FACTORY BROCHURE CAR;i OWNED AT ONE TIME AND THERE'S A FACTORTY LETTER STATING THAT WITH THE CAR,CLUB SPORT HAS THE CAR TOTALLY RESTOREDQuote:
Originally Posted by HughH
aT ONE TIME I owned CARRERA RS #017,WHICH ACCORDING TO THE FACTORY WAS THE BROCHURE CAR;HERE'S A POSTER OF LEO ZA 63 A PREVIOUS POST SAYS THAT LEO ZA 63 WAS RS #15;AM i MISTAKEN;THE CAR #17 IS TOTALY RESTORED WITH CLUB SPORT RIGHT NOW
Hi frankQuote:
Originally Posted by fg1227
RS 017 that you owned was, I believe, one of the two cars with the "positive" (prototype) rather than (production) "reverse" carrera script.
I was indeed featured on many of the brochures and extensively in the RS book.
However it was the red accent GP white car and a M472 touring car (the first one I believe with the touring package at least according to a letter from the factory in 1990).
LEO ZA 63 was on the other car with positive scrip - RS 015 which was GP white with blue and can be distinguished in black and white photos from RS017 as it was a M471 version with al the external signs (tape on bumpers instead of deco strip lightweight rear bumpers etc)
The poster youposted is, i believe, of RS 015 as it has both prototype lettering and appears to be an M471 car.
here is a picture of both RS 015 (from the RS book) and RS 017 again from the RS book
Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
Raj
at 7mins .53 there is a shot of the race department workshop (by the looks of it) with 1973 Le Mans car 47 in it.
Next to it also being prepared is what looks like R2 (RS020 car #9 at the targa) after the targa, now being put into the yellow Sonauto colours it would be using for Le Mans as car 48 (can just see the BP decal on the LHS rear). This is where they would have changed it from a 72 oil system to a 1973 one that we saw in the Le Mans photos and is now present as the factory museum car
I need to try to get a copy of the DVD this comes from - it has fantastic details in it
here is a new picture again sourced from the targa thread on forum sport auto.
it looks like Porsche used the plates LEO ZA 60 on TWO different cars at the taga at the same time.
To me the first picture looks like it was taken in practice or earlier.. It shows a car with what looks like plates LEO ZA 60 on the right. I think this is R2 (RS020) before getting its race paint (and eventually the big tail). You can see heavily flared rear guards and the "porsche" scrip on the tail which only car 9 (R2) had. It may have colour applied around the rear window but apart from that looks relatively stock.
Next to it is 107T on a 1972 shell - this can only be RS0002 the T car that became the 107 race car after R8 was totalled. That car also had plates LEO ZA 60.
However the next two pictures add some clarity. someone posted here that there are differences between front and rear plates - the rears have an extra sticker or something one the plate that the fronts do not.
The second picture shows car 107 (RS0002) with a clear picture of the plate - obviously a rear one.
The third picture of R2, car 9, shows a partially obscured front plate LEO ZA ?? . From the detail of the first picture it is now evident that this is also LEO ZA 60, and it appears that during practice Porsche was using the same registration plates on 2 different cars
No wonder it is so hard to sort out how many cars were there :eek:
this also adds weight to the view that R2 and RS0002 were BOTH used as recce or pre practice / practice cars for the race
Raj
I think that this was taken during the race - not practice
the 2 drivers in the race were Leo Kinnunen & Claude Haldi.
Here are 2 photos with closeups - one driver was wearing a full face helmet and the other an open face one. I cant tell which was which but i think the one in the photo Curt posted was the open face one.
does anyone know which was which? I tried to use a picture of the 908 in practice that Haldi drove but I was not sure who was driving it when the picture was taken (it was a full face helmet but looked different to the one shown here
also the bit under the oil cooler is there in some other race pictures - i think the angle of the photo may have made it more prominent - also it may have been pushed back during the race
here is a photo from a different angle that still shows it
Raj
i just had a message from Nikolay who has sent me some pictures of Haldi and Kinnunen in different races in 1973
haldi always seems to have a full face helmet and Kinnunen seems to always have an open face one -so I would be prepared to say that this was the case in this race as well - that means the driver in the photo you posted is Kinnunen
this photo of him looks like it might be the same helmet
Just found these infos..:
"...Three weeks before the race a training car was stationed in Cefalu, an aging Carrera RS with racing chassis well used during testing and fitted with a 2.7liter, 210hp production engine. With this very busy racing pros Herbert Muller, Gijs van Lennep and Leo Kinnunnen covered some 25-30 Targa laps each, in turn and whenever they found time. A lap is 45 miles..
The team arrived a week before the race: with the race manager, responsible for our Carreras entries, engineer Singer with two assistant engineers and seven mechanics, two cars as entries and another "hot" car for official training.
Now the fourth Porsche pilot, young baron Guilio Pucci, at home in Sicily and very familiar with the course, begann training with unhappy vehemence. While trying to match routine men like Muller and Lennep he slightly damaged one of the race cars and totalled the new training car, putting mechanics on repeated night shifts...
In time trials van Lennep and Muller who hadnt given an inch to one another troughout the season outdid themselves. Using the same car they achieved precisely the same lap times for the 45mile course - a dream time of 36.52 which has hardly thought possible for modified production cars...The degree to which driving rules the Targa rather than engine output was proven by Muller and van Lennep when they drove a production engined Porsche "Muletto" ("Muletto"-litterally translated as little mule...a Muletto has virtually the same chassis as a competition car even though many parts may be ripe for a pension..) to fabulous times of 38.36 and 38.40 respectively.
Since this "ancient" Carrera was still in one piece after so many thousands of training miles and replacement engines were untouched on the transporter it was decided to late-enter it for the race too. A 300hp engine was fitted in the tail and the good old slogger entrusted to Porsche's race and Targa-wise test engineer Gunter Steckkoenig and Baron Pucci. The seat with Kinnunnen in the second Martini Porsche was gladly accepted by swiss Driver Claude Haldi after troubles with the oil pressure in his Porsche 908/3 during training."
Manfred Jantke/Inside report on Porsche's 11th Targa Florio victory, August 1973
Hi Karim
It is interesting to see what the original source is for those comments. Most of them are repeated in one form or another in later publications including the RS book.
I am still not certain in my own mind whether Manfred Jantke bent the truth a bit in the report as to which car Pucci bent and which car he wrote off.
The "aging Carrera RS" was 002 - which was used as Tcar 107 and T car 108 and eventually came 6th in the race as 107.
Here is a photo of it with what looks like the production engine.
The two race cars and "the "hot" car for official training" were R2 (race car #9) R6 (race car #8 the winner) and R8 (original car #107).
R2 was damaged by Pucci and R8 was written off by him.
The report says that he "slightly damaged one of the race cars and totaled the new training car".
However I think that it is far more likely that the proposed race cars were R6 and R8 (as they were at Monza a couple of weeks before) and the much older R2 was going to be the hot training car.
Finally I must have looked at some of the pictures of car 107 hundreds of times..and only tonight did I see the "T" on the front of the car as well as on the side - see picture below. It just shows that sometimes you don't see things in pictures even when they are right in front of you. I had often wondered what the horizontal black line was under the number but had never visually linked it to the vertical part of the T
I think that it is possible that the Jantke report swapped these around to disguise the fact that Pucci had written off the newest race car.
Hugh, good point on a hugely interesting thread.
I am by no means on your level of investigation but I thought its a interesting info nevertheless.
About Pucci, Richard von Frankenberg wrote:
"..there is another sicilian, Count Pucci, a land owner who never had a chance on the Nurburgring. But where he knows every inch of the monster course he could be unbelievable fast. He was entered several times by Porsche and in 1964 he (and Colin Davis) even managed an overall victory. For the last two years his son has been trying to imitate the father."
Maybe Porsche wasnt so keen to let everybody know that a "national hero" (and a proud sicilian too) destroyed their most valuable race car therefore they mildly disguised their press release..
Hugh:
Good catch on race #107/ 360 002. I still wonder what happened to this car after the TF. Could it have been built into a later RSR or 934/935 and therefore renumbered again? It wouldn't have made sense to destroy it I wouldn't think. There must be some tracks somewhere in the records, or the memory of someone who was near things in the day. Maybe Jim Calzia could ask Singer about it. If it were sold to a private party, it would seem that after 35 years somone would know about it being hidden away in some barn or garage somewhere. It would be really neat to find out what happened to it. Let's get the world's enthusiast sleuths turned loose in search of this historic 911 ST/RSR Prototype.
Gib
Guys, just to revive this thread I'm posting pics for all of the Tangerine mule car from Karim's French DVD made by Sport Auto magazine, "Le Mythe 911" as well as a pic of the racing department workshop referred to by Hugh showing what looks like R2 (RS020 car #9 at the targa) after the Targa Florio being transformed into the #48 yellow Sonauto car for Le Mans. Hoping they come out.
Nick
Nick, glad you've been able to post this picture. I thought pics of this cars are looking interesting ever since I watched the DVD and read this TF thread.
here is another pic of the same scene in the garage
notice how the engine lids on the 46 and 47 cars hinge all the way back like the original 911R's
Hugh, excellent pic.
Do you think, it is the garage in Téloché near Le Mans?
Raj, I looked over and over at the film of the red mule for an oil flap but couldn't see one so I'm guessing a 70 or 71 might be right. I sent you a PM re: still frames.
Nick
orange "Mule": a SWB ?
Also, it has 4 Cibies and, on second shot, one might can see a black P O R S C H E script on lower sills. Ex-1968 Rally car ?
I'm shure I'm wrong and my eyes are playing just numb.. :p
Karim, I've looked again but there is no P O R S C H E lettering on the lower sill. Wish there was more info....
karim
I thought that it might be a 68 or 69 rallye car as well
I could not figure out from the shots i had whether it was SWB or not. I would have thought for what they were testing - wide wheelbase, probably for RS RSR, and associated suspension by the look of it - that it would make sense to us a LWB car not a SWB one
Also i was looking to try to get a closeup of the door handle to see if that helped, as the shape changed over that period, but have not been able to get a clear enough picture
I dont think it is later than a 1970 car
Looking at the relationship of the rear wheel to the rear of the quarter light I am sure it is a LWB car. Looking at proportions is my livelihood so I am pretty certain.
Paul, but isnt the rear wheel cut out to fit the larger rear tire ? It makes it difficult to conmpare proportions.Quote:
Originally Posted by CarreraRS
On first pic I "saw" a slight shadow where the rear torsion bar covers is and its more a SWB proportions i.e close to wheel. Also, 4 Cibies made me thinking a ex-Rally spec car...
But it certainly makes sense to rather test a +69 LWB based car.
Raj:
The single exhaust pipe would have been for the 2.7L engine which was used in practice, and when the car was thrown into service for the race with the race engine, it displayed the dual RSR pipes. These are great shots and would have helped us reach the right conclusion earlier on this great thread. Let's find what happened to 107 (360002).
Raj:
I had forgotten about your earlier posting. Maybe Mike Moore should use his car for the retubbing...it's an original 72 S and with the work Mike is doing to it, it is probably as authentic as any retubbed car could be.
He just posted this shot on www.ddk-online.com under Restorations, "My New Project". Great work Mike!
Raj
You are correct - a lot of HP from a small engine.
However i was looking it up in the Frere book as there are 2 2.5 engines that give a claimed 275 HP; a 911/70 in 1970 - 71 and a 911/73 which was in 1972
HOWEVER
while your document shows the engine type as 911/73 engine, all the specs according to Frere, are for a 911/70 engine
specs are as follows
911/70
86.7 x 70.4 equals 2494cc
10.5 comp
275 hp at 8000rpm
valves dia 46 / 40
valve lift 12.1 / 10.5
used in "911 RSR" (as opposed to Carrera RSR for the 911/72; 911/74 and 911/75 engines)
the 911/73 engines (referred to in your doc) have these specs
911/73
89 x 66 equals 2466cc
10.5 comp
275 hp at 8000rpm
valves dia 46 / 40
valve lift 12.1 / 10.5
so i GUESS even the bible on engines (frere) does not agree with the docs from the factory on these cars
from memory the long stoke engines had a reputation for tearing themselves apart - someone else more qualified on this may be able to add to my comments / correct them
I think the whole history leading up to M491 RSR cars in 1973 is fascinating and is a little difficult to put together. I suspect there are still elements that are not understood or have not been properly put in context.
You are correct that each year the FIA rules are known well in advance so rules for 1972 would have been known much earlier than the development phase that seemed to exist in your post. Also a team like Porsche had the ability to comply with say Group 3 or 4 or run in prototype where in effect no rules were constraints.
One of the keys I think is when in 1971 or early 1972 Fuhrmann decided that Porsche could no longer afford the expensive racing programme. The rallye programme was curtailed (only a limited number of factory entries post 1971) and the group 5 programme (917's etc) was abandoned. It is telling that at Le Mans in 1972 there was no official or semi official werks team - unlike 1971 with both the Martini International team and the John Wyer team and 1973 with the Martini International team.
The general story of the development of the Strahle #5 car for the July 1972 Osterreichring 1000Kms race is well known, although I am certain there are still a lot of elements yet to come out on that car that will provide a richer history of the background to the 1973 RSR's.
According to various sources Fuhrmann was at a touring car race early in 1972 and saw both the Capri and the BMW walk all over the 911's. He then encouraged the development of a car to be competitive in that series, via the clever use of the homologation process as Ford had done with the Capri.
This ended up with a prototype car run under the Strahle name to avoid too much scrutiny but with both Waldegaard and Steckkonig as drivers and in effect a full race department car, albeit a programme based only on that car. It had a 2.8 engine that seems to be a forerunner of the M491 RSR engines and certainly looked more like "an RSR" than the TdC RS's later that year.
Another thing to put in context here is that until 1971 (and probably late that year) the whole Race Dept effort and resources had been focused on the 917 and similar projects, with 911 based projects probably receiving no resources. It takes time to turn such a situation around in any business - in effect a radical change in strategy associated with a significant downsizing programme.
Therefore it is conceivable that apart from (almost covert) work on what turned out to be the Strahle #5 car, and perhaps support for Kremer and a few other teams running race based ST's , there would have been virtually no race dept development of the 911 as either a rallye or track car for most of 1972 and almost none in the couple of years leading up to 1972.
The work on R2 and the other TdC car (be it R1 or an ST) would have been rallye based even though the TdC is mostly a tarmac event. That requires a different engine tune and characteristics, different suspension etc to a track car. So it is not surprising that those cars in October 1972, based on MY 1973 RS's looks less like a 1973 RSR track car than the track developed Strahle car from earlier in the year. It would be very unlikely, in my view, that the same team of engineers would work on a track programme and a rallye programme. It is more likely that there were two teams.
Singer and others have said that their work on a track version of the RS did not begin until after the 1972 TdC, ie for the 1973 season, with the trip to Paul Ricard with R2. That then led to the prototype entries of R3 and R4 at Daytona in early 1973, the competition debut (still in prototype form) of the track RSR, and further development work / testing with R2 as car #60 (now with the 2.993cc engine) (and I think R7 as car #62 but that is not what the records say) at the Le Mans tests and 4 hour race in April 1973.
I agree that to understand all of this you need to dig into the background of the cars the factory did run officially and unofficially in 1972, ie the 2 Monte ST's that seemed to morph into M491(group 4) cars, at least in looks, by the end of 1973 and the Strahle car.
However i wonder if there is another series of cars that also played a part - the track oriented ST's run by Kremer and others. Kremer was always close to the factory and it is a moot point whether he developed cars and the factory adopted the changes or the factory developed the cars and he adopted the changes. I think in regard to 1972, and track cars, that he was way out in front of the factory and they would have drawn on his experience. However I have never seen anything suggesting that in regard to the development of the track based RSR's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HughH
Hugh, your resumé is convincing and, as always in technical terms, compelling.
May I add some other historical infos.
In 1971 there was an economic recession in Germany, leading into cost-cutting measurements at Porsche (and probably also to eliminate the external 72 oil filler flap on 73 cars which was very expensive in tooling).
Also, the DM-US$ exchange ratio was much in favor of US$ therfore making german export products very expensive and lowering 72/73 profit rates for the factory.
In 1969, VW-CEO Nordhoff died therefore ending a very close relationship (his daughter Elise married the brother of F.Piech) with that company including 914 and 917 developments. Volkswagen co-founded the 917 development program "as long as they had air-cooled engines".
As a director of Porsche's race program F. Piech was very successful but in terms of financing he drained the factory budget considerably.
Named Porsche CEO in 1972, Fuhrmann probably had another vision of racing programs. Having seen the (market) success in the 1950 with close-to serie racing cars (Spider, RSK, Carrera) he opted most likely to develop the 911 into a pure-bred race car rather than continue the costly 908, 910, 917 philosophy.
By developing the 2.7 engine (initially planned as a 2.7S and then rebadged 2.7RS "Carrera") Ernst Fuhrmann not only had a perfect marketing tool for racing, the "Carrera" badge was a also reminiscent of the famous 50ies "Carrera" engine he helped to develop while working as an engineer at Porsche and since then is also known as "Fuhrmann" engine. Even the famous Carrera logo applied to the 1973RS cars was similiar to the one written on 50ies Carrera engined Porsche's.
Porsche once said the difference between Ferrari and Porsche was "that Ferrari builds serial cars just to do racing while Porsche does racing just to build serial cars".
The whole Porsche racing development after 1972 could be interpreted as going back to a philosophy which startet with the 911R and leading into a 1970-ies program we all know.
Much less known is that German/Swiss engineer and racer Michael May (who 1956 famously first used a roof spoiler on his 550 RSK and subsequently got banned from Porsche factory people and Huschke von Hanstein to race at 1000km Nurburgring because his car was initially faster than factory cars) later worked briefly for Mercedes at their fuel injected engine program and about 1961, for Porsche.Quote:
Originally Posted by HughH
May worked on Porsche's F1 program and among others build a proto 1.5l engine w fuel injection putting out 182hp instead of 158hp, more than Porsche's planned 8 cyl F1-engine. May later moved to Ferrari helping developing the V6 Dino engine and from 1965 on worked as an independant engine consultant based near Geneva, Switzerland.
It was him who helped developing the worlds/german first 1973 BMW Turbo 2002 engine as well as giving inputs about aerodynamic downforce theories on race cars he pioneered in the 50ies.
In 1969, with May's help BMW won the "European Touring Car Championship" with his 2002 therefore beating Porsche on its own home turf.
It was also May who entered in 1969, as a privateer, a prototyp Ford Capri Turbo ("Turbo May") with 320hp on a local race in Germany and setting the pace for Ford's 2600RS Capris which he initially consulted too on fuel injected system for their engines.
Porsche probably did'nt liked that nimble Bavarian cars with help from a ex-Porsche engineer well known for its superb engine knowledge outpaced the 911S on race tracks.
(Piech once said that the only other company he would worked for would be as an engineer at BMW).
Nevertheless, in developing the 917 CanAm, 1974 RSR, Turbo, 935&936 etc, Porsche did write another glorious chapter in its long racing history.
BWM moved on with its aerodynamic tuned CSL "Batmobile" and M1 program and in 1983 won Formula 1 with a world first F1-turbo engined Brabham-BMW car based on a 2002 engine block tuned by Klaus Rosche and initially developed with the help of Michael May back in the mid-sixties.
1956: adjustable wing w flabs using downforce developed by Michael May:
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7831/mayga0.jpg
1973: 911 proto Turbo:
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2572/nncn2.jpg
A wonderful thread! And great research, particularly from Hugh Hodges.
Just for the record, there were five other RS/RSRs took part in the 1973 Targa Florio. They were:
Race No: 106, Giovanni Borri/Mario Barone. They finished 7th Overall, 1st in GT +2000cc class. Chassis number 911 360 0894, (Probably). Brescia Corse entry.
Race No: 113, Peter Zbinden/Mario Ilotte. They finished 8thOA, 2nd in GT+2000 cc class. Chassis number 911 360 0960. Porsche Club Romand entry.
Race No. 109, Guido Fossato/Angelo Mola. They finished 14thOA/3rd in GT +2000 cc class. Chassis number 911 360 1134 (Probably). Fossati entered. (Guido has long had a hotel near Milan in which I used to stay, when racing at Monza. Full of race memorabilia).
Race No. 110, Andrew Hedges/Dan Margulies. They finished 18thOA/4th in GT + 2000 cc class. RS 2.7 Carrera, number unknown as of writing. Comstock entered.
Race No. 112, Gerd F. Quist/Juergen Zink. DNF, slight accident. Max Moritz entry.
And finally...My latest book on the Porsche R-GT2 is now available; For more details, go to: www.johnstarkeycars.com.
Thank you,
John Starkey
Hi John
here are photos of most of those other cars - not all were RSR's - from the 1973 Targa:
car 106 ( I did not have that chassis number, john I am not certain of this number as I thought 0894 was a viper green Strahle car)
car 113 ( that is the same number as I had)
car 110 chassis number 911 360 0446. Some UK members might recognize it. It sill exists with the same registration number PGF 270L and I believe it changed owners recently via Maxted in the UK. It is an M471 car.
car 112 chassis 911 360 0636. See picture of the slight accident on lap one :)
that car is now in South Africa
I don't have a picture of car 109 or chassis number details. Perhaps someone else on the board may have and can share it?
PS
i will have to do somehing about getting the new book :)
Hugh,
Thank you so much for posting those photos. Interestingly, the yellow/red RSR APPEARS to be a modified 911, perhaps not an original RSR? Those wheelarches don't look quite right, should like some more info on that car-it doesn't seem to be the Strahle car.
The RS 2.7 driven by Andrew Hedges/Dan Margulies. Their result shows just just how close a lightweight M471 RS 2.7 was to a full blooded RSR in an actual race situation. They qualified at 44 mins, 43seconds. That made them only 54th on the starting grid! (The best "Works" entered RSR, that of Muller/Van Lennep, qualified in 36 mins 52.1 and Pole position was by Jackie Ickx/Brian Redman in the Ferrari 312PB at 33:38.5!)
I wonder whether the RS was driven to and from Sicily? Must ask Dan Margulies!
Varunan, thanks for your kind comments.
Raj
I have been trying to figure this one out for some time.
It has the same registration plate as the 1972 Monte car.
However that car has a reasonably known history - built just before the Monte as an ST, 1972 Monte, 1972 Acropolis in May, both in the same colours and looking similar, then a gap and it did the recce for the 1972 TdC but by that time the rallye bits were off, it was still red and white but looked more like a RS with a ducktail, then it did the recce for the 1973 safari, still red and white and looking like a rallye ST again. It was wrecked on that recce.
this photo looks like the car is one colour (hard to tell) I cant see rubber hold downs on bonnet (could be replacement bonnet) the decals along the side are not on any other version of S AK 1337 but all of that is superficial although it is hard to see why they would change it and then change it back. However, tellingly, it does not seem to have flared front guards.
it is supposed to taken in 1972 (Waldegard driving hill climb in Sweden 1972.) so I am guessing it is not the same car as the 1972 Monte car 911 230 0047.
IF it was taken in 1973 instead it might be after 911 230 0047 was wrecked in Africa and the plates may have been reused on another car???
I'm pretty sure this has not been posted on this thread...wish it had sound...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tDhcQPdP-Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VciWlJW8jvw
The primary authors need to turn this thread into a book! :)
Here's a French documentary on the '73 TF (5 parts - with sound!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7wcYqL8z0M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh4hc_HbZAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWIBY6EDOOc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAn5H9lG_34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbXA7Qp_QA
What's the guy in Part 5 spouting off about in Italian?
Peter, fantastic footage from the French documentary, part 3 in particular showing the danger on the recce laps with cars and trucks coming the other way and children, horses and goats in the road! No wonder this was the last year it was run.
Shame about the quality.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dWIBY6EDOOc
The guy is a local politician trying to prevent the Targa race from being cancelled; he explains how essential it is for a pilot to drive at the Targa and how a win at the Targa separates the champions from the rest....
Of course, all the attemps to save the Targa failed and it essentially stopped in 1974.
Hi Raj
No i dont know the number
I have been trying to work it out for some time - firstly to work out whether or not it is a "real ST" and if so what its identity is.
Its first competition event was:
03.04.1972
300 km race Nürburgring
(1st round for the GT Europe cup)
Günther Steckkönig
race number 131
3rd place
Strähle KG
It is featured on the FREISINGER MOTORSPORT website http://www.freisinger-motorsport.de/...ssic_911s.html
which also shows the identity tag but it has too much glare on the photo to make out the numbers. The site does call it a 911S though, and it is definitely a 72 car. I have seen period pictures of it with both silver and black horn grills.
this and a couple of other threads on ST's, including that great list of 1972 ones that you posted, has had me thinking that we should try to do a ST thread to try to:
1 identify what IS an ST, or what it is that makes an ST a "real" ST given that they do not have a specific chassis number series to identify them like R's or RS's (or even if there is one or two specific things (apart from a letter from the factory) that can be used to determine whether a car is a "real ST" or not). I know that John Starkey and others have done a lot of work in this area.
2 identify, if possible, ST's built by the werks versus cars converted by customers or dealers using factory kits, versus cars made up from scratch by teams such as Kremer or Strahle, (this car may be one of those).
3 try, as far as possible, to put together a list of ST's with photos - period and current to see if they can be documented. I have details on maybe 30 to 35 cars that I think are genuine ST's. hopefully with the resources of this board they can either be confirmed or otherwise and added to.
here is another photo of the car at the Coupes Benelux, Nivelles (B) (4th round for the GT Europe cup) in July 1972.
Yes, the mayor has style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milou
What a fantastic record of that era.
I wonder which Porsche that last in car video is from - sounds (and go's) like it could be one of the RSR"s ?
Sure would love to see the whole documentary.
Hi Raj
i think I need to get my eyes replaced or a bigger screen :)
i blew the picture of the car with the snow on the edges of the track up (attached) but can only see a hint of a rectangular hole - and then i am not sure if i am imagining it or not
i dont have a copy of the FIA homologation for gp 4 pre 72 /73 - ie pre RSR do you?
if so can you post it on the ST thread? then we can compare with the RSR one.
Raj, Hugh, here are a few more pics of the Strahle car in case you haven't seen them. Always wondered about that central oil cooler.
Nick
In regards to the move of the fender oil cooler to the front central location.
In '73 the 911 RSR competed in the FIA Sportscar 3.0 category (Prototype). Thus they could mount the oil cooler wherever they wanted to. They were not hampered by FIA GT rules anymore. In '72 Porsche entered the 911 in the GT category as it was not deemed fast enough to compete for outright victory. The rules for GT were based on production cars, so they had to retain the fender mounted oil cooler.
So perhaps the move to the front oil cooler in '73 was just a matter of efficiency.
Best,
n.
Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
Raj:
Here is a shot of the Strahle ST with a bare front oil cooler, which others used also in some races in 72. I think the front oil cooler was an evolution as it was more effective and still allowed the use of the driver side fender well for a tranny cooler, which most 72 STs used I think. The Kremer ST initially had a tranny cooler in that left fender but found the single front engine cooler was not sufficient for track work.
Also a shot of the Strahle ST as it has been restored showing the dual front oil cooler arrangement and black bumper, which I have not found documented in a race yet. If it was an FIA requirment that caused the change to the front cooler, others were not complying as you see the Strahle ST competing in many events with STs having no front cooler.
Finally, a factory shot of a 72ST with no rectangular openings in the front spoiler/bumper. Apparently, it was a customer mod to cut those openings for brakes and/or oil coolers.
PS Just remembered this shot of a brand new factory built ST with the spoiler openings, so it must have been an option from the factory.
From Wikipedia...
Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
I agree, the 911 was always a 'production based' race car. I didn't mean to imply that the RSR was conceived as a prototype but it ran in the prototype class.
Cheers,
n.
Raj:
Here are some shots of various STs that had front oil coolers prior to 73 (I think). One is the Strahle ST in an earlier form maybe. I think the other 2 were from 72 events.
Hi Raj / Gib
that #40 Strahle car was at the 1971 targa -ie a full 12 months earlier
I have some other photos attached - so it wont be the same car as the yellow one is a 72.
I am sure I can find earlier centre mount oil coolers - i will have to look but probably wont post for a couple of days (unless i find them quickly) as i will be away
the 22 car was a 1972 entry at the targa for Claude Haldi / Bernard Cheneviére
Gib
here are 2 pictures that look to be period (one has the car with the famous Strahle registration plates WN V2 so it must have been taken within his ownership you would have thought). Both show the black bumper but the race number is 137 on the car. The Freisinger site shows the cars first race as 03.04.1972; 300 km race Nürburgring as race #131. - not 137 - and no record of a race #137 in its history. The race history sites show the same although the source data they all used may be wrong. There were not many events where such high race numbers were displayed so I am at a loss as to when they were taken.
Raj
it is Textar (brakes)
hugh
thanks Raj
i used to have a link to this part of the site but lost it and could not navigate my way thru to it again
i will try not to lose it again
raj
I had a look at the regs from back then for both Gp 4 and the ones they build on
You are correct that in Gp 4 in the 1971 appendix J regs (#260) it states for the first time some regs about external oil coolers. these are:
"h) Engine-lubricating system: the oil sump may be modified or replaced
by another one of different shape and capacity. The oil pump may be modified
or replaced by another one. Yet, the number of oil pumps originally fitted cannot
be changed. Oil filters and oil coolers are free (type, number and capacity).
The fitting of an oil-cooler exterior to the coachwork is only permitted below the
horizontal plane passing through the centre of the wheel-hubs. In no case, such a
fitting of an oil-cooler may result in the addition of an aerodynamical enveloping
structure."
However I take that to mean in addition to what has already been homologated as a part of the "production" car.
Obviously in the case of the 911S there was an "external" oil cooler in the base production car in the front wing. As I see it it is allowed by the fact that the base car was given homologation status - but that is why it is important to see the Gp 3 and Gp 4 homologation papers for the ST - it should all be described in there.
What I take the regs to mean is that IF in ADDITION to what is in the "production car" or a car that is already homologated to group 4, you wanted to add extra cooling for the engine, AND you wanted to do it exterior to the coachwork, it needed to be situated under the centreline of the wheels and it could not result in any aerodynamical enveloping structure (ie create an additional aerodynamic aid- like a rear wing)
I would be interested in the comments of people on the board who have to deal with these sort of regs on a regular basis in competition.
Hi Raj
That is R2 isn't it?
After Le Mans it did the "wide wheel" tests and then was restored as a "typical" martini car from that year to go into the museum, where it has been since then.
It did do a test with Paul Frere on a track just sfter it was restored and before it went to the museum, but I suspect in that form - not a full cage etc
The factory information is ambiguous on the subject of the first 914/6. There are no known 914/6 or 916 below 0011. Look at the recalls:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_coll...es/Recalls.htm
in particular:
http://members.rennlist.com/914_coll...Recall9J01.jpg
A museum in Germany claims to have 914/4 4702900001, but no proof of that has been obtained.
"A Porsche Moment"
Artist: Michael Mate
Herbert Muller and Gijs Van Lennep drove the winnning Martini-Porsche 911 Carrera RSR in the 57th and final running of the Targa Florio race in 1973. Porsche recorded their 11th and last victory in the final running of this historic event. Finishing third in another Martini-Porsche Carrera RSR was the team of Leo Kinnunen and Claude Haldi. The scene depicted in this composition shows the winning #8 car winding through the streets of a beautiful Sicilian village.
Gentlemen,
I have really enjoyed all the contributions to this thread and now feel it's time to give you my hypothesis on this subject. The bare bones of this are:
1: 911 230/0769, which the factory re-numbered to 911 360 0001 is R1, the "Mongrel", (E42), that raced at the Osterreichring, Tour de Corse and the Targa Florio.
2: 911 360 0020 is R2, the other Tour de Corse car and also a Targa Florio car.
3: There never were such RSRs as 911 360 0002 and 911 360 0019. The latter MAY have been built as an ordinary series production RS 2.7.
If anyone has it, please produce factory confirmation of the building of these two cars.
That's it, it can all be confirmed by reading the relative documentation and studying the time-line of these cars in 1972/3.
John Starkey
John:
Under your scenario, what VIN (orig. or renumbered) is this car...well established as the red Strahle RSR in the RS book, #3 press car, and race#107 at the TF? This car's rear flares never changed from the red Strahle car to #107 at the TF, so it could not have been one of the cars at TdC in 72 in my opinion.
Gib:
That is a very good question. I have been pursuing what DIDN'T happen, rather than what did.
FYI, the Carrera RS book by Konradsheim, published in 1992 and presumably written with input from the factory, P162 states that The Waldegard/Thorszelius RS/RSR at the Tour de Corse was: "911 330 0789". We know this cannot be right, as the Tour de Corse in 1972 was run long before such a chassis number was/could have been in existence. Therefore, I believe that this was a misprint for 911 230 0769, which became 911 360 0001.
That same book identifies the Larrousse/Gelin car at the 1972 Tour de Corse as "911 360 0020" and that period/chassis number dating is right. Now, it may be that 911 360 0020 is a re-numbered S/T, (perhaps 911 230 0841?) Or was that car genuinely scrapped?
On P163 of the RS Book, Konradsheim clearly identifies Waldegard's TdC car as R1 and Larrousse's car as R2, designations we believed had been reserved for 911 360 0019 and 0020. Thus my hypothesis that 0019 was never built as an RSR, perhaps a regular, street RS.
Incidentally, 911 230 0789 is noted as having been crashed at the Tour de Corse, and afterwards repaired. Could this have something to do with the rear flare's shape?
If you examine the factory issued records of the RS/RSR cars built, you will see that the entries for 911 360 0019 and 0020 are very bare; (unlike the other RSRs noted). There are no gearbox numbers, no color noted, (not even GP White!), and the engine numbers seem cursory to me, just: 663 0003 and 0004, whereas 911 360 0018's engine is 663 0031 and 911 360 0021's is 663 0032. They are not even noted as being to M491 spec, whereas all the other RSRs are.
We know that 911 230 0769/360 0001 was at the factory from July 1972 until February, 1974. Steve Carr of Autofarm inspected the car, at the factory, in November 1973. To me, it beggars belief that the factory would have had such a then-"modern" racer to hand and not use it. Hence part of my hypothesis. Of course, if the factory would confirm that they DID build 911 360 0002 and 0019 as RSRs, there goes my theory, but they never have.
Gib:
That is a very good question. I have been pursuing what DIDN'T happen, rather than what did.
FYI, the Carrera RS book by Konradsheim, published in 1992 and presumably written with input from the factory, P162 states that The Waldegard/Thorszelius RS/RSR at the Tour de Corse was: "911 330 0789". We know this cannot be right, as the Tour de Corse in 1972 was run long before such a chassis number was/could have been in existence. Therefore, I believe that this was a misprint for 911 230 0769, which became 911 360 0001.
That same book identifies the Larrousse/Gelin car at the 1972 Tour de Corse as "911 360 0020" and that period/chassis number dating is right. Now, it may be that 911 360 0020 is a re-numbered S/T, (perhaps 911 230 0841?) Or was that car genuinely scrapped?
On P163 of the RS Book, Konradsheim clearly identifies Waldegard's TdC car as R1 and Larrousse's car as R2, designations we believed had been reserved for 911 360 0019 and 0020. Thus my hypothesis that 0019 was never built as an RSR, perhaps a regular, street RS.
Incidentally, 911 230 0789 is noted as having been crashed at the Tour de Corse, and afterwards repaired. Could this have something to do with the rear flare's shape?
If you examine the factory issued records of the RS/RSR cars built, you will see that the entries for 911 360 0019 and 0020 are very bare; (unlike the other RSRs noted). There are no gearbox numbers, no color noted, (not even GP White!), and the engine numbers seem cursory to me, just: 663 0003 and 0004, whereas 911 360 0018's engine is 663 0031 and 911 360 0021's is 663 0032. They are not even noted as being to M491 spec, whereas all the other RSRs are.
We know that 911 230 0769/360 0001 was at the factory from July 1972 until February, 1974. Steve Carr of Autofarm inspected the car, at the factory, in November 1973. To me, it beggars belief that the factory would have had such a then-"modern" racer to hand and not use it. Hence part of my hypothesis. Of course, if the factory would confirm that they DID build 911 360 0002 and 0019 as RSRs, there goes my theory, but they never have.
John:
I think the best source for discovering history are photos of the day. There is no doubt when looking at old photos that the red Strahle RSR was the same car with the same rear flares that ran as #107 at the TF. Two characteristics reveal the truth I think. The small dent in the rear flare and the mud flaps that no other RSR used.
We all know that factory records and those in books...and memories, sometimes get mixed up, but photos showing unique details are pretty infallible I think. I can't argue which VIN it had originally, but I would be willing to bet a steak dinner that it was the renumbered 360 0002. And it never ran at the 72 TdC.
Edit: Added a few more pics.
John
I am more inclined to agree with Gib's reasoning on this one - especially on tracing the #5 Strahle car through the #3 press martini car and to the targa #107T car and eventually #107 race cars (but not the original intended #107 race car which was R8). I think after that it was also the "mary stuart" wind tunnel car in June 1973.
I agree that it is not possible to be certain about its original ST chassis number, but accepted wisdom is that it was 911 230 0841 and there seems to be a fair bit of circumstantial evidence (race records of the targa, presumably based on material the factory supplied at the time or scrutineering material, other written material by Manfred Jantke etc) that by that time it had the identity of RS 0002.
I don't think it is possible to be certain of the chassis numbers of any ST converted to a RS/RSR (with the exception of RS 0001 / ST 911 230 0769 where there is documentary evidence of a production number for the ST and chassis number for a RS on the same shell). However the evidence that this transformation happened can be transferred to a testable theory that it happened for other cars as well.
I do agree that at least some references in the RS book are wrong ("911 330 0789" being the second car at the TdC) and some may be misleading, not necessarily deliberately but because of poor memories, poor (or lack of) records etc or just simple mistakes /typos etc.
On top of that I have "theories" that are testable but where there is not necessarily enough evidence to reach a firm conclusion.
However I believe that a lot can be learned by piecing together chronological historical photos and trying to match unique features like Gib has shown with the shape of and damage to the rear guard of the Strahle #5 car. Once the original identity of the car is established it can be followed through and IF it obtains another identity that can be matched to a high confidence level (but not for certain without documentary evidence from the factory.)
I have tried to follow this through using a process of elimination on the identity of some cars - ie following what we know is R2 through its guises and then following though other cars by features etc until only a few unknowns exist. Then I have tried to match unknowns together. By that way I think I have narrowed the options of what car was what - however IF additional information comes to light that challenges or contradicts this you have to almost go back to square one - and a lot of additional information has come to light on this board over the past 2 years.
I will try to follow the same logic here over a couple of posts following individual cars OR looking at events and eliminating cars to leave uncertain identities- it is almost like a series of simultaneous equations with not enough identifiers to reach a certain conclusion.
R2
It is easiest to start off with R2 - It has the easiest lineage to track and some easily identified features and still exists. Tracking it also narrows down possibilities for other cars identities.
R2 is 911 360 0020 and was car #2 at the TdC registered LEO ZA 69. It was built on a shell that has an oil door (like a small number of other early build cars) but has 1973 features such as black horn grills, light trim and RS series production looking rear guards - at least at the TdC.
It has some unique decals at the TdC compared with the other car there (eg the Shell decal has the word shell on this car but not on the other car) which can be traced directly to the car that did the "RSR testing" at Paul Ricard after the TdC (the registration plates were the same as well but they could have been swapped)
At Paul Ricard it acquired unique riveted on rear flares that are then identifiable at the Le mans test (car #61) by which time it had acquired new silver livery and the targa (car #9) where it also acquired a modified paint scheme and rear end.
After the targa it was rebuilt for Le Mans for Gregg as car 48, at which time it lost the 1972 oil door and changed colour again to yellow.
Following Le Mans it was used for the wide wheel tests (still with identifiable Le Mans livery) and then "restored" as a silver Martini liveried car #8 for Frere's magazine test and then went to the museum where it is now.
Most of this information is also available and confirmed by written material from race records, factory correspondence or material, Singer's book etc.
I don't think that you would disagree with any of this but I have started with it to eliminate various alternatives at the races in question, and also show how one car can mutate over time, so just following the photos does not always lead to the right conclusion.
photos
Tdc
Paul Ricard showing unique flares
Le mans test - same guards
targa - same guards
Le Mans - looks completely different but is the same car
Hi Hugh, Gib, Raj and all!
First of all, thank you for all your input.
All very convincing stuff and my purpose was not to try to prove what something was, but to question some of the assumptions that have been reached. Wasn't it Sherlock Holmes who said: "Remove everything that can't be and, whatever is left, no matter how unbelievable, has to be the truth?" (Or something like that but you get the meaning!)
For instance, (and this is central to this whole question of just what did what?), Where is 911 360 0002? It vanishes after the middle of 1973. And where is 911 360 0019? It does not appear to have been built at all. I have never been able to find any reference to crashes, which might have destroyed these cars. A minor thought is: As the factory sold 911 360 0001 at the end of 1973/beginning of 1974, why didn't they take the opportunity to sell 911 360 0002 at the same time? (if it existed). Both these cars were obsolete by this time, the factory already testing the RSR Turbo Carrera for the upcoming season in 1974.
Also: I cannot help but think that the "0002/002/R2/RS2" identities have all become very mixed up and confused.
I have written to Jurgen Barth, asking for clarification from factory records, let us see if there is anything there!
John:
The Jurgen Barth and Lothar Boschen The Porsche Book book of 1977 under the Racing Cars section has a picture of the #3 press car with the caption: 'Development started with this factory-owned Carrera RSR in 1973.' (see picture below).
So Jurgen Barth should be a good source for determining what the VIN was of this RSR. Also, to Raj's point, this work would have been done by the Werks shop I am sure since it was racing development.
In the Carrera RS book, 360 0019,20 are both listed as having an Auxiliary Heater, which according to the footnote, was only done for 472 builds. They also had roll bars, and both options would fit a rally car. They both show a paint code 2225, which is the Grand Prix White/Red configuration...and the 2 cars at the TdC were red/white. Also, 0019 shows as having Dunlop tires, and 0020 fitted with Michelins. Both show a build date of 10/1972. No gear box S/N was shown, and the engines were 003/004 as you mentioned.
I think it makes sense that if 0020 was built (R2, #9 at TF), it is likely that 0019 was also. But I agree with you that both 0002 and 0019 should have some tracks in the records somewhere, or at least in someone's memory as to what happened to them. Since we think 0020 was a renumbered 72 ST, isn't it possible that 0019 was too...but again no tracks so far.
Maybe because they were renumbered cars this would explain why there is no LS, gear box s/n, 472/491 build number, or other options listed in the book for them.
It would be great to find the records that go with these cars, (and to find the real 0002 & 0019 cars), but at least for race #107 at the TF in '73, we know this car existed and how it evolved from June 72 through mid 73. And if Jurgen Barth confirms that it was indeed 0002, then we have solved half of the puzzle.
Stumbled on this rear shot of LEO-ZA (#6_?) at the Targa in '73, I didn't go back through all 47 pages to check....hopefully it hasn't been posted already.
Raj:
In the Carrera RS book, p.165: "Porsche's fondness for remodeling and renaming racing cars is illustrated by ....... Number 1 was used by the Pole Sobieslav Zasada as a rally car, and Number 2, after serving as a practice vehicle, was entered as number 107 in Targa Florio."
These comments must have come from some records, or memory of one of the many acknowledged contributors to the book.
Your comment that 0002 doesn't exist because it hasn't been found is not meant, I hope, to imply that it never existed as, if indeed, 0002 is verified as 107 (as the above quote suggests), then it did exist and we have lots of photographic history to go with it. We don't know what happened to that car (107 or 0002), and maybe today it doesn't exist because it was rolled into a ball during some testing by Werks, or it was renumbered again as a 74, 75, or 76 race car and the documentation was lost, as they didn't care about 'former' VINs, especially for a 'Mongrel'. But if 107 wasn't 0002, then which VIN was it? (There should be some records for such a widely photographed and successful prototype RSR.) We do know it existed and had quite a ride in 'year one' of the most exciting development period for the 911 as a successful racing car.
All very interesting!
Note: In the Carrera RS book, p.165: "Porsche's fondness for remodeling and renaming racing cars is illustrated by ....... Number 1 was used by the Pole Sobieslav Zasada as a rally car, and Number 2, after serving as a practice vehicle, was entered as number 107 in Targa Florio."
In Konradsheim's book also, Number 2 is identified on page 163 as chassis number 911 360 0020, (R2), which means that this car was the sixth placed car at the Targa Florio, not the third placed Race #9.
I had written a long piece that covered a lot of the same ground that Gib has now posted last night and managed to delete it as I was trying to post it. :mad:
Even after a nights sleep I am still mad at myself.:mad::mad:
And now you guys have posted even more while I was trying to recreate it :mad: so i am having trouble keeping up with the argument line. I hope I don't repeat too much here.
So instead of going back over the same detail as Gib has now posted, this is the argument line without the detail on what he posted.
The two cars at the TdC look like sister cars. The RS book describes both as RSR’s and the TdC being the first official race for RSR’s.
They also show a lot of characteristics of 1973 RS/RSR’s but at least one of them (the #2 car for Larrousse) had a 1972 feature of an oil door.
1973 RS characteristics include the black horn grills, the black trim round the lights and the shape of the rear guards (unlike the Strahle car which has a different profile as Gib has shown). Non RS features, apart from the oil door are the front guards which are RSR (or ST), and not like a standard RS, and on the #2 car at least (you can’t see on the #6 car) the bubble air vent in the front quarter windows like the ST that Larrousse had in his 1970 TdF ST.
Due to the confusion over their identities I will refer to the two cars as the #2 car and #6 car in this post.
However by this I mean the #2 car is the Larrousse car, LEO ZA 69 shown elsewhere to be almost certainly 911 360 0020: R2: Built 10/1972, and the #6 car is the Waldegaard car LEO ZA 68, identity unknown for certain but said in the RS book to be an older 2.5 ST. However I agree with John that the “ST” number provided, 911 330 0789, cannot be correct as that car would not have been built by the time of the TdC.
Similarly by looking at the build specifications in the RS book, and the production numbers that I have (1031089 and 1031090 – I think these are sourced from one of your books John) R1 and R2 look like sister cars as well.
So if you postulate that IF the TdC cars were sister cars, and one of the TdC cars was R2, and R1 and R2 were sister car, there is a argument to be made that the TdC cars were R1 and R2.
The question then is, where are the proofs and, as John rightly says, what happened to the other car.
A further piece to add to or confuse the equation is that the RS book (I am not sure about contemporary sources) states that ONE of the cars was supposed to be reconstructed from an older 2.5 ST.
I had always assumed (for no good reason, and assisted by the reference in the RS book to it being the Waldegaard car) that this was car #6 but now I believe that if ONLY ONE was a converted ST it might have referred to car #2 and therefore the RS book is wrong in saying either it was only one converted, or it was car #6.
Looking at what is known about R1 and R2 from the RS book and other sources the following is evident:
While a couple of early RS’s (RS12 and 13), and possibly RS11, had 1972 shells with oil doors they were built before the end of May 1972.
Later build cars, from July and August 1972, RS15 (the white and blue M471 in the press photos), RS16 (the Paris show car) RS17 (the white and red car in the photos and the one at Monterey) have no signs of an oil door. Granted they could be airbrushed out of PR shots, but not from a show car, and not from the shots at Monterey. Also RS15 was pictured in the homologation papers and shows an interior engine shot of a 1973 oil system (maybe a different car was used for that shot but that is unlikely).
However car #2 definitely had an oil door and it is not too big a stretch to say that car #6 probably did as well given what has been said about it.
This then raises the question that IF both had oil doors, and both were sister cars built in OCTOBER 1972 why would they have oil doors when even the cars built in July did not – unless they were built on converted ST cars?
The first part of that to test is whether they were built in October as the RS book says.
RS 17 was built in July 1972 has production number 1030202. These cars (R1 and R2) are supposed to have production numbers over 1000 which is consistent with an October Build.
Gib covered the detail of the R1 and R2 build sheets (to the extent that they are known). What he did not say was that the Dunlop and Michelin tires specified were very unusual. In the first series of RS’s Dunlops were only specified for M491 conversions and a couple of special factory cars including R1 and RS 090, the yellow press car LB -P 220. NO other car has Michelins specified.
Maybe there was also a tire test on the agenda at the TdC that has not been recorded? or maybe the car already had Michelins before it was converted??
Gib also covered the options – possible for a rallye car but unusual for a track car, and also unusual that no LSD was specified - possibly suggesting that the donor cars already had one?. The engine numbers to me are not unusual – they are in the range of what would be experimental engines – and they certainly would have been that in “prototype RSR’s”. Also such cars would have had numerous engines and gearboxes so recording the one they were built with does not mean much.
I don’t place any significance in the fact that they had no conversion number. They certainly were not RSH’s. Neither were they series production cars. As I understand it NONE of the M491 cars went through the RSH weighing process as they were pulled off the line for modifications before that and would have been to heavy. That is why the 1000 units homologation required the factory to submit cars up to a chassis number well over 1000.
Unlike a “series production M491” which would have needed specific paperwork to chart their progress through the production line, and thus a conversion number, these were special builds that may not have needed conversion documents thus maybe there was no conversion number for them. (Does that change the history on the number of RSH’s and RSR’s built?)
Furthermore, if the factory was building a race / rally version of the RS it may make sense to start with a shell that had all the necessary and proven structural modifications – ie a 1972 ST shell – as a base instead of starting with a new shell. That would at least save some time in the build. Such a project not only would not need a conversion number, it would also probably end up with a completely different build sheet to a fresh build, depending on the donor cars.
I therefore believe there is plausible argument to be made that:
• the two cars (R1 and R2) were built as records to date suggest they were, but BOTH were converted ST’s
• these two cars were the TdC cars
It would help this argument line if a photo of the #6 car could be found with an oil door. (or better factory documentation)
Granted this still does not address John and Raj’s point on what happened to R1.
The RS book (page 163) does address this saying that car #2 went to the Paul Ricard tests and car #6 was put back together and had a long stint on the “panzer” test track before being used as a practice vehicle in the 1978 Safari Rallye. I have spent a lot of time looking at the background of photos and video of that rallye and have not yet seen anything that might resemble such a car – I suppose that is not really surprising though.
I think it does address the point about the Strahle car and whether or not RS 0001 (S/T 911 230 0769.) could be R1.
Gib has posted on the Strahle cars unique rear guards and how they can be traced through to the targa #107 car. At that race that car was described as RS 0002 (either from factory documentation at the time or scrutineering info or factory information after that time). The factory has also said that both RS0002 and RS0020 were at the targa.
I think that the wind tunnel photos on page 94 and 95 of the RS book (one shown below), showing testing of the Mary Stuart tail following the targa are of this car. There are numerous similarities to the car at the targa. Then it is a matter of where it went from there, but if it was deeply embedded in the test and development area of the factory anything may have happened to it.
So far as RS0001 / 911 230 0769 goes, I understood from Raj that it was converted in August 1972 to RS 0001, at about the same time as the Strahle car seems to have been renumbered.
If this is correct, I believe that it was too early to be in the correct timeline for the R1/ R2 build, IF the production numbers assigned to them are correct. However there is no doubt that the overall shape of that car is essentially the same as the pictures of car #2 and car#6 at the TdC – to me that is an indication that St’s could have been converted but probably not that ST.
One thing that is testable however is whether there was a one digit typo on the R1 identity in the RS book or a bigger misidentification. The book identifies the source car as 911 330 0789. John Starkey postulates that it might be 911 230 0769. However it could be 911 230 0789.
Surely it is easy to test with the factory the identity of that car. If it turns out to be a series production car then the identity is probably wrong; if it is something else the identity may be correct (even though that number is not on the list of ST’s Raj posted).
JohnQuote:
Originally Posted by John Starkey
i cant see that reference in my book
I think that this thread has proven that BOTH R2 (RS 0020) and RS 0002 were at the targa; RS 0020 being placed third (race #9) and RS 0002 being place 6th (race #107)
One of the biggest problems to me is the subtle difference between internal designations R1 (RS 0019) R2 (RS0020) etc and real chassis numbers RS 1 (0001) and RS2 (0002)
Hi Raj
I think that at least one person has posted a response from the factory Museum to the effect that:
- both RS0020 and RS0002 were at the targa
- the #48 car at le mans was RS0020
I agree that it would be much better to see original source documentation, and I accept that the factory information, or what is purported to be factory information may be incorrect. This thread tested that quite rigorously a year or more ago
I wonder where the Wagenpasses are for these cars - surely they would be a source of the truth?
On a question you asked yesterday about Janke's views. The comment I picked up on was from the the August 1973 Christophorus. Again I have it second hand so it would require testing for rigor.
Finally IF a car turned up today claiming to be RS 0002, I would be applying a lot more rigor such as examining its production number - both written on the dash like your car as well as stamped into the dash - before taking it seriously.
I have just had a note from Nikolay about the comment in the RS book that after the stint on the second car from the TdC was used as a practice car at the 1978 Safari
He points out that this could be another typo and really mean 1973 Safari and notes that I posted, a long time ago, a picture of a car in TdC colors from Tobias Achiles book here at post #9 Rally testing in (for?) Africa.
It is also obvious from the photo that the car had been rolled at some stage and not really repaired
Raj
i have never been able to work out what 911 360 0092 was or what it became.
I would say a factory test or competition car but have never seen any details - maybe Brian F has some info?
911 360 0285 is easy - S-AR-7909: rally car for Leo Kinnunen in 1000 Lakes Rally 1973 (car #3) the 1973 safari car for Bjorn Waldegaard as car #10 and again at the safari in 1974 for Hermann/ Schuller as car #41.
It is now restored as car #41 in Kuhne & Nagel livery in germany
sister car to this is 911 360 0288
Hugh:
No answer has ever been posted as to how the Wagenpass for 0020 R2 shows this picture, which looks very much like the press car #3, and 107. I don't think R2 ever looked like this picture....so how reliable are the Wagenpass documents?
The Safari's date in 1973 was April 19-22, i.e BEFORE the Targa Florio.
I too had gone down the line of thinking this is where the "missing" car(s) might have gone, but apart from the date not fitting:
S-AK1337 was a Safari practice car in 1973 and this is the car that Jurgen told me was sold after the rally in Kenya as: "A spectator sitting in a tree fell on it!" (Presumably the "rolled car" Hugh?) Presumably, it may still be there.
Gib,
The Wagenpass for 911 360 0020, (R2), perhaps does show the correct photo? That ties in with Konradsheim's "RS" book information.
Hugh:
Ref: "i cant see that reference in my book
I think that this thread has proven that BOTH R2 (RS 0020) and RS 0002 were at the targa; RS 0020 being placed third (race #9) and RS 0002 being place 6th (race #107)
One of the biggest problems to me is the subtle difference between internal designations R1 (RS 0019) R2 (RS0020) etc and real chassis numbers RS 1 (0001) and RS2 (0002)"
Look at P162, the caption distinguishing which car was which at the Tdc. It says that #2, LEO ZA 68 was driven by Waldegard, #6, LEO ZA 69 by Larrousse!
John, Raj, Hugh: I claim no credentials or special knowledge of this subject matter and the fate of this car has long been speculated about. As you guys have access to factory material and sources that are in the know, I have held back from chiming in on this thread. However, I have heard a tale from an elfer in Germany that this car was given to a friend of the race department for the cost of transport from Africa back to Germany. Upon arrival, the tub was judged to be unserviceable and subsequently stripped of its parts, cut up and scrapped. The Teldex brake set up is/was still extant. As I said, this may well be just a tale, perhaps of the tall variety.
John I am still confused - and I think it has something to do with "car #2"
the caption on page 162 , and the photo on page 163 "does my head in".
My caption (RS book english version 2325/3000 printed ?? but I bought it in 1994) says in part,
"Two cars driven by Waldegaard/ Thorszelius (LEO ZA 68) and Larrousse / Delferrier (LEO ZA 69) started the race but neither made it to the finish line"
Further on it states the chassis number for both cars.
The accompanying photo on page 162 shows a car with plates LEO ZA 69 with a race #2 on a rally plate (which I believe is correct and was the Larrousse car) HOWEVER the black and white photo on page 163 shows a car with plates LEO ZA 68 , presumably the waldegaard car, also with a race #2 on its side but no rally plate.
I have a photo of LEO ZA 68 from the back - the same one raj has posted above- with race #2 on it.
However all other photos of LEO ZA 68 have race #6 on it and all photos of LEO ZA 69 have race #2 on it
If you look closely at the race #2 on the LEO ZA 68 car it does NOT have the "Ferrodo" and the logo on the bottom of the decal under the race number. (also It does not have the word "SHELL" on the shell decal at the rear of the car that LEO ZA 69 does)
ALL other cars at the 1972 TdC have the ferrodo and logo below the race number. So the black and white photo in the RS book of LEO ZA 68 and the one that raj posted above is either in practice or at another event that has never been disclosed.
The different shell decals are the evidence (albeit tenuous) that the licence plates did not get changed from one car to the other.
The side on shots of car #2 clearly show Larrousse driving as does a black and white one (both attached)
I have also posted a picture of LEO ZA 68 wearing rally plate #6 and with what looks like waldegaard driving it
So Raj
from this you can see that you posted the rear of BOTH cars above - even though the both look to have the same race number
I have yet to see a good explanation (or one at all) of this discrepency
also raj that photo of the car in the mud you posted above is the one I described as having rolled - it has damage to the roof, the rear widow has popped and had to be put back with crude restraints, the LHS rear (on the picture) guard has damage as does the ducktail
I take your point that the rear bumper treatment is different to both cars at the TDC But they may have been replaced depending on what damage occurred at the TdC. I think this damage - and the crude repairs is consistent with the reports that Waldegaard "demolished" his car at the TdC and it was repaired and then used for testing
John
i thought that the practice car in africa had the same colour scheme (in broad terms) as the monte cars from 1972 - not one like these TdC cars??
PS
I just got an email fro Nikolay who referred me back to this post
Hugh, Raj, et al,
Yes, totally confusing and I'm not capable, (or willing!) to try to explain the number switching except to suggest between practice and the rally itself. Why, I have no idea! Ask Norbert? He was there.
Hugh: Yes, S-AK1337 was in it's "Monte" colors still when used in the 1973 Safari as a practice car.
Whilst the idea of the 911 360 0002 car being given away and then stripped of parts sounds realistic, we have no proof.
Beginning to wonder...As 911 230 0769 became 911 360 0001, did 911 230 0841 become 911 360 0020? Conversely, could 911 230 0769 have been intended to become 911 360 0019? Only factory records could show.
In Jim Garfield's posted picture showing the pits for the 73 TF, we get another example of the factory switching plates. Notice what appears to be the LEO ZA 60 plate on what looks to be 0020 #9 (left car-without any Martini paint) sitting next to T 107, which we know became just 107 in the race...which had this same plate mounted as shown in the process of being prepared for the race after the original 107 was wrecked.
Gentlemen:
Jurgen Barth has confirmed that 911 360 0019 was built as an RSR, and delivered to Weissach without an engine.
Wonder what happened to it?..
John
My view of things is that car (0019) was the waldegaard car at the TdC LEO ZA 68, it crashed, was repaired and is the car with all the mud shown in raj's photo above, possibly went to Africa in 1973, along with S AK 1337 as practice cars.
S AK 1337 (the monte car) was damaged and left there.
by that stage 0019 would be a little worse for wear but would need to be onsold or brought back for customs duty reasons.
Either may have happened but there may be some truth in the "rumour" that Flunder heard that it was sold for the cost of bringing it back and then scrapped as it was not a viable repair proposition - after all a two year old damaged race car - possibly without drivetrain, would not have been a prized possession in those days. that COULD explain why there is no records of what happened to it - like R8, for all intents it only competed in one event and then did not cover itself in glory
Hugh,
With all due respect...The problem with that theory is that Konradsheim, (with help, I am sure), from the factory, is quite specific that Waldegard's car in the Tour de Corsica was the "altered" S/T of Zasada, the so-called 911 330 0789, which I am sure is a misprint for 911 230 0769.
If you are right, and Konradsheim is wrong, then nothing can be believed that has been printed about these cars.
Hi John
I am sorry but I cannot see, in the RS book, Konradsheim ever being specific about the origins of the Waldegaard car other to say that it was an ex 2.5ST and to give a chassis number, 911 330 0789, that we both agree it could not have had.
I understand that you believe the number is a misprint and two numbers are incorrect. However equally only one number may be incorrect (giving 911 230 0789, admittedly not a car on the ST list Raj has), or more than 2 numbers may be incorrect.
Konradsheim does call the Waldegaard car R1 on page 163 and calls the Larrousse car, identified by its chassis number 911 360 0020, R2 also on page 163.
I have postulated above, and I believe with good grounds, that the 2 TdC cars were indeed R1 and R2 (as the book says) and furthermore they were 911 360 0019 and 911 360 0020. In addition I have argued that they were both renumbered 1972 ST's and both had oil doors - indeed both were sister cars.
I have NOT sought to show what their original identity was, but indeed only stated what I believe, on the balance of available evidence, that neither was:
a) the Strahle #5 car (which possibly was 911 230 0841) and was renumbered to become RS0002 in August 1972, and in that guise became first the Martini press car, then a practice car and ultimately the Targa #107 race car and the possibly the wind tunnel car in June 1973.
My ruling out of that car was done on body shape that was consistent and different to the TdC cars from before until well after the event, and on the recorded production date of October 1972 and on the production number, I believe sourced from one of your books, both of which would also be inconsistent with the supposed August transformation of that car to a RS/RSR.
b) the Zasada car (911 230 0769) that I agree has a body shape that could be one of those cars but which I understand was converted to a RSR (911 360 0001) in August 1972 , again too early for the timelines of R1.
In trying to work out where the various cars went we can say with certainty:
• the Zasada car (911 230 0769) is now with Raj and has an unbroken history (albeit with some "time" gaps while at the factory)
• R2 (911 360 0020) is in the factory museum and has been since the mid 1970s and has a record that can be traced from the TdC until it went into the Museum, albeit with not as much confidence as one would like due to the many mutations it went through. However I am sure a close examination of the car today would dispel most doubts and may even reveal its ST origins (as can be seen on Raj’s car)
• The Strahle #5 car can be traced, with a reasonably good degree of confidence, through to the targa in 1973 and then, I think, to wind tunnel tests in June of that year. After that the trail goes cold.
• The Waldegaard TdC car (LEO ZA 63 race #6), I believe is R1, 911 360 0019, and is a car that has almost been invisible since 1972 and, with good reason, people have queried its very existence at all. You have now posted that “Jurgen Barth has confirmed that 911 360 0019 was built as an RSR, and delivered to Weissach without an engine.” That is a big step forward.
I would now like to postulate a timeline for it. Some of this I am much more certain of than the rest.
I believe it started as a 1972ST and was converted in October 1972 into a RSR sister car to R2 which was also converted from a 1972ST. The identities of both of these ST’s is unknown to me but it may be possible to narrow them down by a process of elimination given assistance from the factory.
In a post above I postulated that it should have an oil door. Tonight I received a photo from Nikolay clearly showing that oil door in a photo of the car at the TDC.
That photo is attached, as is a closeup. I think that this is a photo of an almost brand new R1 – the car and tyres (can even see it is Dunlop) are pristine.
Next is a picture of R2 (car #2) at what appears to be the start of the event and a closeup of its oil door.
I think that as stated in the RS book and many other places Waldegaard crashed his car (proceeded to demolish it was one description) on the event and DNF. The RS book then says it was repaired and used on the Panzer test track before being used in Africa as a practice vehicle for the Safari. (the book says 1978 but I now believe that it was 1973)
A picture of a car, that looks like the TdC cars posted here before, but with 3 areas of damage highlighted be me, is the final one attached. I believe that this is R1 on the test track and the damage shown is the aftermath of the TdC “off” from Waldegaard but before the car was used in Africa as one of (at least 2) practice cars for that rallye (the other being S AK 1337).
I have no knowledge of what happened next but find the explanation of being bought from the factory for about the cost of shipping it back, and it being found to be too damaged to repair by the new owners and scrapped, to be more than plausible. We have been told that the other practice car was sold on while still in Africa – certainly there would have been no incentive for the werks to keep damaged cars.
This account, the information from Jurgen Barth and the photos Nikolay has provided, I believe has advanced the knowledge of these earliest RSR’s.
The next step would be to try and determine, with a degree of confidence, the original ST identities of both of these cars.
The Carrera RS book, p. 160:
"The Tour de Corse on November 3, 1972, was the first official race for the Carrera RSRs. Although both cars had reached their final form, one of the Carreras was actually a re-constructed 2.5-liter coupe. The advantage of this rally, which was raced entirely on asphalt on the island of Corsica, was that prototypes were also allowed to start. This gave Porsche the opportunity to test its Carrera---which was not yet homologated--under rally conditiions.......Theoretically, the two 300-HP Porsches, piloted by Waldegaard/Thorszelius and Larrousse/Delferrier, had a good shot at victory...."
In John's R-RS-RSR, 3rd Edition '98:
factory prototype R1 was identified as 0019 R1, 911/72 type, 2.806 cc, 300 hp, built 10/72; and prototype R2 was 0020 R2, 911/74 type 2993 cc, 315 hp, built 11/72. (These 3.0 engines became the very successful 74 RSR engines)
I tend to agree with Hugh (and John's 3rd Edition) that 0019 R1 was a renumbered 72 ST, and that 0020 R2 was also a converted ST. While the Carrera RS book description differentiates them by saying that one was a reconstructed 2.5 coupe, I don't necessarily think we can assume the other wasn't also. The fact that both 0019 and 0020 had 72 style oil doors so late in 72 is unlikely for newly built cars, and the very similar details in the C-RS book of the build would seem to indicate they were both "sister 72s". We can't seem to find much in the way of factory records about the renumbering process, and as Hugh suggests, we need to dig further into it.
Jurgen Barth's comment that 0019 was built as an RSR (without an engine) would seem to be consistent with the C-RS book, in which both are described as RSRs in final form...except both cars had ST style rear flares (not suitable for the wide 11 Fuchs). Waldegaard was quoted as saying his car was 'too soft', so maybe they didn't yet have the "helper springs" of the RSR, and they didn't yet have the raised spindles and maybe the relocated rear arms (so to Raj's point, were they in final form for track work...NO). According to John's 3rd Edition, two different engines were used in these cars, a 2.8 (R1) and 3.0 (R2), and it makes sense that R2 would be the one to get modified for track testing at Paul Ricard with the larger, more powerful engine.
The C-RS comments regarding what happened to 0019 R1 do suggest it went to the Safari rally ('78-probably wrong year, but right continent) after being wrecked at Corsica seems to be consistent with why it has never resurfaced.
And John, if we are going with the validity of the C-RS book, if Raj's car is RS Number 1 (0001) modified from Zasada's ST as described in C-RS, p.165, then "Number 2, after serving as a practice vehicle, was entered as number 107 in the Targa Florio" seems to confirm that 107 is 0002. The only question for me is which ST was it in the beginning?
As we have seen above the RS book identifies the Waldergaard car at the TdC, that I / we now believe is R1, as originally being ST 911 330 0789. It then goes on to say that the car was used as a practice car in the 1978 Safari. I / we have taken that to be a misprint for 1973 given the large period of time between the two events.
Furthermore we have agreed that R1/ the TdC car could not possibly be that car (911 330 0789) because a car with such a number could not have been produced that early (especially if you take into account that the production numbers of R1 and R2 are just over the 1000 mark.)
However Nikolay has emailed me an interesting piece of information from a book by Jurgen Barth - I am not sure which one - that he says uses this chassis number twice in relation to the TdC.
He says that in his book Jurgen Barth quoted “Fahrgestell-Nr. 911 330 0789” two times: as 1972 Carrera RS2.8 ”Corsica” and as "Trainingswagen for 1978 Safari Rally”
I have no idea what all of this means except to still postulate that the car number should be 911 230 0789 and both the RS book authors and Barth have taken the information from an original factory source that has a misprint in it, or from a third party source that has a misprint.
However I now have an open mind again as to whether the TdC car did actually hang around the factory for long enough to be used as a training car on the 1978 safari. If it did it may have had a transformation to a "big bumper" car along the way as the only cars - practice or otherwise - I have seen from that event were short hoods.
If it did get transformed into a short hood, and was used as a practice car for that event, it would not be surprising if it later disappeared without a trace. It would also mean that it had at least 3 separate lives - as an ST, as a RSR long hood and as a short hood rallye car, and with a gap of 5 years between the last two who knows what else it might have done!
and given that this still is the targa thread :D here is a picture of R8, the original car 107, that Pucci wrapped around something and wrote off, causing one of the cars that we have been debating, 911 360 0002 (probably the ex Strahle #5 car) to be drafted into the race instead of being used as a practice hack.
this picture was posted on forum sport auto a couple of weeks ago
Great new picture of the crashed car Hugh, this was the only one I had seen up till now:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...inprova2-1.jpg
Perhaps being loaded leaving Sicily, always wondered who the guy is, and someone's already had the 11's!
Mike
Raj:
I think that the reason for using 0019, and 0020 could be as simple as a timing issue with a decision to go to the TdC with 2 cars to test, putting these 2 ST cars they had sitting around that had already been modified somewhat to match the test specs, and as they stuck them into the Werks shop to do final prep, these were the sequence numbers for other RSs going through the shop at that time. It could also have been influenced by other business conditions...budgets (only so much money available for the test program and these 2 cars could be built cheaper than starting from scratch), aiming for 500 RS units, how quickly they could get a pair of cars ready after a late decision to run the TdC. There are many 'business reasons' that could have caused them to use these numbers, and I don't think we can speculate about all those that could have been factors by looking simply at how many lower numbers could have been used.
The facts Hugh sites are pretty strong evidence that is not undone or over ridden by sequence numbers or lower numbers that could have been used...just my opinion.
Raj
Gee you have been busy:)
that is a great photo of LEO ZA 69 - i have not seen it before but we do have one taken at the same place and time but a slightly different angle
- posted below.
I don't know why they used 19 and 20 as sequence numbers.
As Gib says there could be a lot of business and timing issues involved. On which cars counted for the 500 and which ones did not I don't think it was cars held at the factory that did not count - it was any cars that were taken off the line and sent to the competition area for modification before they went thru the weigh in process - this included all M491 cars and probably a couple of other specials as well.
Why not use other numbers under 11? - maybe at that stage they had hopes
of converting more cars - and maybe they did but we dont know.
On the existence of 19 and 20 - i think there is very strong evidence that 20 exists in the museum and a lineage can be shown - apart from what the factory says that this indeed is 20. On 19 it has been problematic but more and more circumstantial evidence is coming to light on this board that it was indeed 19 and maybe , if Nikolay is right it was a 1978 safari car - but i understood not an entrant but the yellow practice car.
However i am intrigued at the photo of the engine compartment you posted (and the car has martini stripes - not the practice car. It does look like an early car hidden under there.
On the S AK 1337 car 54, I dont think this is the monte car. It is supposed to be 1972 and there are a number of features of that car that are different to the monte car before, and as far as I can tell, AFTER that time (the photos at the Tdc practice) that suggests a number plate swap may have occurred
IF the photo was in 1973 - after the monte car was sold and left in africa a number plate swap would make more sense but we have been told it was a mid 1972 photo
Hi Raj
Nikolay has emailed me this morning re post #739 - and I have not seen his email until now.
he said the following to me a couple of weeks ago
"My version about #6 from TdC:
I don’t think that the car was used in Africa. This car was used only for test in Germany at the PANZER test track for preparation for 1973 Safari Rally. After this the car was dismantled and checked(like R4 after Daytona’73). At 1977 year the chassis was assembled with feature of G-series model and painted Yellow and has other Registration Nr. “BB-JE 917” (the car from the DVD that I was sent to you both) and used for preparation for 1978 Safari Rally.
This my presumption is based on that - in his book Jurgen Barth was quoted this “Fahrgestell-Nr. 911 330 0789” two times:
as 1972 Carrera RS2.8 ”Corsica”
and as "Trainingswagen for 1978 Safari Rally”
Please watch my DVD. On 1.04 minute there was Vic Preston jr.driving the yellow test car and see the steering wheel, it is like the Carrera RS (please see the first two attached photos). The official rally cars at Safari 1978 Rally was with other steering wheel (please see the third atttached photo). N.B. B.Waldegaard is not in this yellow car (DVD at 1.30 – 1.40minute). He was driving the other training car – please see the black frame inside, not a silver. This is a film producer mounting."
Attached is a scan out of the Barth book that he sent the other day that clearly shows the car in two guises (or not so clear after I had to reduce it)
I will post an extract to make it clearer to read
To me that would make some sense if the car was dismantled after tests on the endurance track
Obviously if it was to be recycled again it would be made up as a "modern" car. It would appear that more than one car that has been "scrapped" has returned in a different form at a later date....including ST's and probably R4.
If this happened to this car it would probably be double recycling - from something into an RSR and then into a G series. The chances of such a car really being scrapped after all of that must be high - if only due to metal fatigue.
I don't think that it is possible however to prove any of this one way or the other without access to factory documents - which obviously both Barth and the RS book authors did have, or access to the car itself. (unlikely to ever occur now but who knows :) )
Raj as I understand it it is not that hard to "update a long hood to make it look like a short hood - it was done here a lot of times in "updating " cars looks. (and is currently being done in reverse with turning SC's into "longhoods"). If the car was really dismantled and rebuilt it would not be difficult at all at the factory especially if it was a cosmetic update - front and rear panels only - not the internals of the car - interior trim etc. Also I would expect the factory to field a car that at least looked like a current model at any competition event.
here are photos that are of the same car in the DVD that Nikolay sent me
I can read a part of the registration plate on one ...JE 917. I can also read a part of the rego of the same car in the DVD
the car does seem different to the one that Raj posted the engine pic from - That one had martini stripes and seemed to be white. That one is on the DVD as well - but a rallye car not a practice car.
this one has chrome window surrounds on the inside whereas the race car has black window surrounds
This one seems to be yellow - although it is hard to tell with all that red dirt
I tried to capture a couple of "inside " shots as well as some other shots of the car but I couldn't get any as my software would not capture and save the pictures from this dvd
here are the photos Nikolay referred to in the previous post
first the rallye car interior
second the practice car interior - see steering wheel and chrome window surrounds
finally the same engine shot as Raj posted and a shot of one of the cars in the rally
Produkt Stck probably means quantity produced of that type. This certainly appears to follow from all but the first line where only one VIN is listed, but quantity 2 are listed.Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
Raj
I am interstate for a few days so dont have all my records.
however let me go through how I see this. By the way this is all educated guesswork on my part - I dont place my views any higher than any of the others oin this thread (and i know that some on this thread have had good information from factory sources - however even that may be subject to misinterpretation or lack of full knowledge given how long ago this all occurred)
on the description 1972 RS 2.8- I think that that may be a contemporary reference. These days we call those cars RSR's but I am not sure that that was the way they were described at the time. the badging was "carrera RS" and maybe there was an effort to make sure they were evolutions of the RS - not something that could be called a different car for homologation purposes
therefore they may be no difference in substance between "RS 2.8" in that book or the letter and "RSR" as told to john recently
I find the reference "Produkt Stck - 2" very interesting. I am certain it means two such cars produced - ie R1 and R2 being RS19 and RS20. I know it does not give another number but it seems to confirm TO ME AT LEAST that 2 1972cars were converted for Corsica. I think it can be entirely consistent with the existence of R1 and R2 as I postulated above a couple of pages ago.
Interesting as well is that no engine numbers are listed - it does not mean they did not have engines - just the numbers were not known at the time of compiling the list or they had multiple engines.
I think that the possibility that the internals were transferred to another car with a 1973 Vin is intreiging - that could / may be after the time on the panzer track.
I dont know why other important cars were not on the list - but again I dont know the full context of the list - Nikolay is there a previous page???
as to "open to the possibility that the two monte cars which had central cooler by sept 72-went to corsica in sept for practice"
YES there are pictures that have been posted here of the 2 cars - but more or less looking like street RS's - at the recce about that time. the S AK numberplates aand the distinctive colours of the Monte cars are evident.
HOWEVER i cant see that they would have been recreated as the 2 TdC cars. I firmly believe that there are 4 separate cars involved. At least 3 have a documented history after the corsica event - R2 which is in the Museum (and we have gone thru the history here) The Monte car currently in Europe which appears to be the car sold to Meznarie and used in the 1972 criterium and the other Monte car which went to Africa as a recce / test car in March 1973 and was left there after being damaged.
the number 5 on the cars to my knowledge is to signify the cars were running in Group 5 or prototype class - the same number is also on the other proto cars such as the stratos. If anyone knows anything different I would be happy to be corrected
I agree that the monte cars used the red flag to highlight where the valve stems were - however the competition dept probably had a large number of such wheeels made up so it would not be unusual for these cars to have them
I still think it is unclear WHICH 1972 cars could have formed the donor shells for the TdC cars and exceedingly strange bount the chassis number published
hopefully more information will turn up
Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
Raj:
You have re-opened one of the few mysteries left over from all our work to get to the real history of the early prototype RSRs developed by the factory.
This factory produced Wagonpass (looks authentic) and the email answer to Milou (p. 11, post 154) from the factory identifying 0020 as the RSR that finished 3rd at the 73 TF, was at the LeMans test, and finished 14th at the 24 hr LeMans, and now resides in the Museum ARE INCONSISTENT. The Wagenpass RSR (pictured) is not the car that finished 3rd at the TF (#9), so which is correct? Is the museum car #107 from the TF (and the #3 press car) making it 0020, or did they misrepresent the Wagonpass VIN? Both documents cannot be correct.
Gib
raj
the heading on the table is
"911 Carrera 2.7 to 911 Carrera 4 lightweight"
I am not sure if there was another page before it
i have attached a blown up extract which is a bit easier to read
so i don't think the reference was specifically to "light-weight carrera 2.7"
see line 3 is the 1973 M491 cars - all 57 (?) of them from chassis #307 and above- I thought the records showed 55 - what are the
other 2? is it a typo?
also if you compare line one with line 3 the "carrera RS 2.8 corsica" cars are identical to the "2.8 RSR's" in all but weight and name
I am certain that these are R1 and R2 and that they are excluded from the other 57 (55?) M491 cars produced but in all other aspects are the same lineage
This does not shed any light on the two known RSR type cars RS001 and RS002 UNLESS they are the two mystery cars that take the number of "RSR's" from 55 to 57.
Certainly in the cars shown in the RS book (and i counted them again this morning) there are only 55 cars from #307 onwards
It seems that Gunnar is back on line with their resto up-dates.
http://www.gunnarracing.com/
Raj,
Maybe you can contact Kevin and see what the RSR they're do'n is all about...
gunnar@gunnarracing.com
Cheers
Raj:
I respectfully disagree with your statement that the Wagenpass is the only factual evidence we have. We have very good photographic evidence that there were 2-72 chassis at the 73 TF, both silver, and their finishing order with drivers identified. These are very valuable records that substantiate both cars appearances. If you conclude that 107 was 0020, then what renumbered VIN was #9? Factory records are inconsistant on the identity of both cars if the factory filled out the Wagenpass document, because it conflicts with their documentation that the museum car is #9 not #107. It is hard to prove a negative (that the museum car is not 107), but there would have been no apparent motive or gain in switching their identities when they did the final restoration in the summer-fall of 73 (I think that was when Paul Frere drove it.)
If you believe #107 to be 0020 (museum car) based on the Wagenpass, then what happened to #9? I think there are more comments from those involved in the day, plus Dr. K's book, plus Singer, plus photos that support #107 as 0002...and they trump the Wagenpass document. Maybe Singer or Barth can comment on the process to generate a Wagenpass document, and whether there was ever any need to substitute one car for another on the document for making a race or having a backup/training car available.
Raj:
I understand your point, and it would be good to be able to get reliable documentation for these cars to sort all the history out. Your statement that the factory didn't care about VINs is true I am sure. That would account for the poor records that seem to follow these prototype RSRs.
But for me, the value of this thread has been to document how the factory proceeded to develop the 911 in a factory effort for circuit racing beginning in 72. We have pieced together through photos, race records, books, and interviews from some of those who were there in the day...the race history of several of the early prototype RSRs which began as 72 STs. Through this process we have discovered facts about these cars and factory practices that were not documented in any one book on the subject.
We don't really need to know all the VINs to understand what happened...what the success was, and how the factory developed the suspensions, brakes, engines, transmissions, wheels, wider bodies, etc. We have briefly summarized the history in more detail than was known before for a small select group of early RSRs. I would like to know the VINs and what happened to specific cars that seem to have disappeared from history, but the real value for me is what we have learned. It's not their monetary value today that makes me want to know about them, it is how they came to be...to understand the evolvement of the competitive features that were the beginning of the most successful race car platform in history.
Raj:
Here is Singer's recent comment to Jim Garfield: ..."He was quite sure that the #107 car is not the one in the museum, nor was it the car that Zasada wrecked in Poland, but he had no idea where the car did go after the race."
For me, this is pretty good evidence that 107 was not 0020 R2, since the factory has documented the museum car as 0020 R2. That for me also eliminates the theory that based on the use of "R2" (which is clarified below), 107 is 0020 R2.
From Dr. K's book, p.165 (which has been quoted many times in this thread): "Porsche's fondness for remodeling and renaming racing cars is illustrated by the following example: The chassis numbering system for the RS series did not start with 911 360 001 and 002 but rather with the number 11. This allowed Porsche to rebuild existing 911 S race cars as Carreras--which, under racing rules, could be further modified--and call them RS 1 and 2. Number 1 was used by the Pole Sobieslav Zasada as a rally car, and Number 2, after serving as a practice vehicle, was entered as number 107 in the Targa Florio."
This is the best documentation we have that 107 was 0002. (In the preceeding sentence he used the exact VINs...911 360 001 as a lead in the next statement, so I think his meaning is that RS 1 and RS 2 were 0001 and 0002.) If you accept that the Zasada car is 0001 (and I think you do), then this statement should have the same validity for the 107 Strahle car as being 0002. Both were 72 STs, and fit the scenario from both the timing of their development in the RS 491 program, and their photo documentation.
I think for the Wagenpass, the photo was incorrect for the other filled-out information. I don't know how that happened, but my guess is that since these cars got repainted over time, it is not too much of a stretch that the wrong photo could have been attached when the Wagenpass data was submitted. Both 9 and 107 were once a different color than the Martini silver, and it would be easy to confuse their repainted photos.
OR...the other possibility is that it served a factory purpose at some point in transporting the vehicles to have a sightly modified Wagenpass document to conveniently get a car through an inspection.
Does anyone know the details of the process for establishing these Wagenpass documents...how and when they were done, and what changes were made (and allowed) when a car was reconfigured or repainted and the picture did not match the original document. I don't think one Wagenpass document with a picture is an infallible source of identifying a VIN on these prototype race cars. Singer's memory is a better source for me.
I feel there is an important piece of information that's been left out of this discussion. Carnets.
When a team wished to transport a car or tools, or anyone with anything, come to that, across a European border up until the European Union did away with them, in about the early 1990s, that team/merchant had to have what was called a carnet, (from "Carnet de passage" in French), thoroughly describing the car, it's chassis number and accompanying tools. Thus a team could not simply say that they were taking a car to a race, cross a border, sell the car and get back into their home country without paying the sales tax that was due! A substantial bond was payable when the carnet was taken out, to ensure that people played the game.
So customs officials would take the carnet from the truck driver at a customs post and inspect all the cars and equipment to make sure all the numbers and quantities of tools checked out, before allowing the truck and cargo to proceed.
So: If a car was damaged at one race and had another race scheduled for the next weekend, it was sometimes easier for the team to switch the chassis plate off the damaged car onto a sister car and send that car instead. The numbers would all check at the customs post and there you were.
Now...I'm not saying that Porsche did such things but a lot of teams did! Think on...
Several versions available in 1:43 -
Arena Modelli
Nor sure if this helps.
1. That is the power cord to the licensplate lightning.
2. Can´s se that.
3. I had cars where the rubber gasket is "whimsy", that what it looks to me. That is due to that the rubber is sqweezed in and gets differently stretched. So it it´s "long" and "short" and therefor fall in and out.
Hard to tell.
Regards,
pär
Have we seen these images before?
Attachment 59953
Attachment 59954
Attachment 59955
Attachment 59956
From: http://www.flickr.com/photos/targa19...7614461109759/
Raj:Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
It does look like there is an oil cooler in there, although it is hard to see for sure...but I don't know what else would be in that position. These two sister cars appear to have front oil coolers like an RSR, but I agree with your conclusion, they would not have had a passenger side cooler if they were new RSRs. This seems to help the case for the view that 360 0020 R2 (#2 at TdC) was not a 'new RSR build', but rather a converted ST as some of us have concluded.
I keep thinking about that Wagenpass for 0020 with the #3 press car picture...and you are right about the point that the car mentioned above from the TdC (#2)...which became the #9 Martini RSR at the TF..had a 2.8L 300 hp engine according to Dr. K's book, and this Wagenpass doc describes the engine as a 2.7L. Also, we know that this car...#3, Strahle/Martini press car had a 2.7 engine at the Targa before it was swapped out for the race engine out of the original #107. It is a little hard to believe that the factory would have fudged this doc with both a wrong picture and engine description (for VIN 0020) just to get a car across a border when it was convenient for some other ill-timed complication. I can't come up with a scenario to explain it, other than it was just a mistakenly written VIN which should have been 360 0002.
We can document the pictoral history of the Strahle car all the way to the TF race, which didn't change except for paint scheme, and it was the #107 car not the #9 car. But the above Wagenpass scenario means that Dr. K's book is wrong when describing which car (#2 as VIN 0020 R2) was at TdC , and the factory's documentation for the history of the 0020 R2 car which is now in the Museum.
It must have been just a transposed number on the Wagenpass.
Raj:
I went back to look at that wagenpass again, and noticed one small detail....the only page that is not stamped with the inspector's mark ("41") is the page with the VIN and car specs, including the engine. All the other pages have stamp on them, and both the pics have stamps to confirm they are the pics for this wagenpass it seems.
The #3 Martini car, which had been a press car was now managed by the 'Porsche test division' (according to Dr. K) was sent ahead of the Targa race for practice by the participating drivers. Would this car have required a wagenpass when it wasn't planned for race use, but just for practice.. apparently so. The date on the wagenpass was Mar. 73...why would it have been issued on this date, other than because it was required for it to be used as a practice car at the TF.
Lots of questions, and hopefully someone will enlighten us with the answers.
Raj:
There does appear to be a faint stamp on the spec page, but it was made at another time...not when the others were stamped. It looks like that also on the 906 and 914-6 pages too...very faint. This seems to suggest that the spec page was done earlier, and simply copied for the new wagenpass doc.
This makes me wonder if the spec sheet with a picture of the #3 press car was used for the #9 Martini RSR wagenpass doc which would have been on its way to the LeMans test race in April as #61. This car was painted with Martini silver as shown in the following photo, which Hugh uncovered on p. 34, post 497. But maybe the factory didn't have a picture yet of the #61 car in Martini silver, so they used the one of the #3 press car, which was very similar. The inspector probably wouldn't worry about numbers on the car.
I am back to being somewhat suspicious that since this spec sheet could be copied or used for later ONS passes, this wagenpass may not represent a correct factory document that should be considered infallible for which car was 0020.
so when's the book due out ???? :rolleyes:
there's more than enough info here...
this thread is a legend!!! :D
The faint stamps were made at the same time as the others. They appear after the stamp on the prior page was applied - and the book closed - thus faintly transfering the wet stamp from the prior page.
My point is that when a document is stamped to indicate inspection for validation of the document, the stamp would be bold just like it appears on the other pages, and it is done on every page of the validated document. The spec page does not have such a stamp...why? Apparently, the spec page was treated differently. And the fact that 2 other ONS docs show the same characteristic is meaningful...at least for me. It does appear the stamps were transferred as Stu suggests, but why did the spec sheet not show an original stamp itself? Were the picture page and spec page considered one page, and were always attached on a single sheet?
On FIA docs, every page is hand numbered showing multiple page docs as being inspected together, then on the last page the stamp is made along with a date and signature. These ONS docs do not have this rigor that I can see.
#9 at the TF has the Martini logo meatball on the passenger side, just like the #3/107 car in the ONS picture, and #61 didn't have it at the LeMans test in April on the driver's side. We never saw the #3 press car with a front spoiler lower lip as it has in the wagenpass doc, but the #61 car has one at LeMans test, so does this indicate an attempt to make it look more like the #61 car on its way to LeMans test? Granted the hoods are different because of the Martini paint scheme on #3, but hoods got changed readily on race cars, so maybe that was an acceptable variation on the ONS doc for an inspector.
At some point #9 may have had a 2.7L engine as it had a rally type rear bumper from the TdC race, and at the TF, so this would be consistant with the wagenpass doc at an earlier date.
There are a lot of 'maybe' questions in my comments, but I think it is more likely that the picture is not the actual one for 0020 on that wagenpass than the optional theory that the factory renumbered 2 cars with the same VIN.
Raj:
I am suggesting that only the picture was substituted from the #3 press car to go with this wagenpass, and that the spec page from an earlier time for 0020 when it possibly had a 2.7L engine. I am not suggesting that the wagenpass VIN would have been wrong for the papers representling and traveling with the car, which I believe is the #61/9 RSR. Can we find any evidence when a spec sheet was modified when an engine change was made on a wagenpass(for any car)? It is likely that for the LeMans test the car would have had the 2.8L engine which it supposedly had at the TdC event. I am just throwing out possibilities, to explain the mismatch of the picture with the VIN, because there seems to be too much evidence that documents 0020 as the #61/9 RSR.
Among my papers I have found a Rundschrieben/Circular from 28 February 1973. It states that the first of the new RSR will be delivered the following week. I will take a picture of the document tomorrow and post it. I always save things with RS or RSR connections. :-)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...1/Circular.jpg
The Brumos #59 and Penske #6 RSRs had already been shipped to the US for the Daytona 24 when that letter was written...but they were factory prototypes, so maybe that letter was referring to the first true customer RSR.
I couldn't help but post this picture here after it was posted on the 'Random Porsche Racing pics' thread just recently. This is probably the best evidence that the original #107 was not going to make the race in the 73 Targa Florio...and the reason why the '107 Mongrel' was forced into service.
Gib
Its Just a door Man :D
Hi group!
I'm new to this forum and finished to read all the pages of this thread and it is awesome. I looked for other RSR threads but didn't fine another one. I looked at the RSR production list and find that 911 360 0614 was sold to Toracio Alvarez from Dominican Republic and then to Diego Febles.
I was sure I had a magazine with a color photo of the car and found it yesterday. Attached is the photo from an old Desfile Deportivo circa 1974 (the magazine have no date only Volume #). It was shot at Riverside Motor Speedway in Añasco PR.
What I'm trying to do now is get in touch with Diego Febles and try to find an older photo when Toracio Alvarez owned it. Does anybody here have any other photo of this car?
Thanks;
Ariel
Puerto RicoAttachment 75211
Welcome, :)
Those wiiiide Fuchs on your 911RSR look so menacing and powerful. :eek::)
www.amicidellatargaflorio.com
photo e film
Sorry if this has already been posted but ... I've never seen this blog... never seen this series of pics
http://trackthoughts.com/?p=108#more-108
#66 RSR 3600576 ( or so they say) - Follmer/Kauhsen
ADAC 1000 Nurburgring May 27th '73
chuck
i have never seen it either , or some of those photos, especially #2 and the last one
Well this was interesting after my last post on this thread.......
I was at the Coronado Historic races last weekend and I noticed a Martini livery RSR... then I noticed old Carl Thomson (ex-Vasek's parts manager/917 restorer) in the trailer next to it. Knowing Carl I asked him what's'up with the RSR... and he said "Hey, it's the real deal". He went on to say that this car came over in the same container to Vasek's as the 2.1 Turbo prototype they had on display for ever. He said that the thing was REALLY hit hard by Follmer and it just sat in the corner of our shop for a long time. He said they got rid of it and it became a turbo car and then finally was picked up by the Collier museum. The new owner got it from the Collier and now races the hell out of it !!!!!!!
The car is beautifully restored, I couldn't get a good shot of the ID stamp in the trunk because of the many coats of white paint and the glare ... but it matched the tag.
So, here is 9113600576 R-5 as of last weekend...... :)
I'll post the pics as high def as I can.........
Cheers
Looked like Follmer recently signed the trunk, apologizing for crashing the car in '73........ ;)
Cheers
might be a repost, but a great vid showing the RSR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x__bLJBKqT4
Here's the same car, earlier last year at Sears Point in June '10 during the Wine Country Classic, and again at Laguna Seca during the Reunion in August '10..........as the Brits would say, " on track he really does give it a bit o' stick ".
( You realize of course that now I'll be two shots short for my future daily postings )
JZG
WOW!
You never know what your gunna find at the Early 911 S reg site.........always good stuff...........well almost always! In this case something really cool for me and Brad!
I bought 576 (R-5) from Vasek Polak while skiing in Lake Tahoe (Heavenly Valley) sometime in the early eighties! I was on assignment for a Good Looking 60 something year old gal, her name was Mrs. Read, she was Miles Colliers Mother! Mrs. Read and I would find something interesting for Miles to the get as a Christmas present....every year!
So here I am skiing with Miles and trying to finalize the RSR Turbo deal with Vasek Polak! One of the Christmas deals with Miles Mother was that Miles had to be surprizzed! And remember we didn't have cell phones in those days, so it was pretty difficult to keep telling Miles that I had to go the the bathroom again and again and then sneak to a pay phone to call Mr. Polak. Vasek was pretty cool to deal with but nothing was ezzie when 250K was involved. The good news was that Polak liked me....mainly because of my Porsche-Racing relationship with Carl Thompson, we go back to the 70s.
Anyway back to 576. Yes it did win the 1973 Dijon race with Muller and Van Lennep. 576 was crashed in the left rear and then went to the Prototype shop where the boys decided to "cheat" the "rules" one more time.
576 became the very first Turbo Charged (2.1L) 911 (street or race car). It was raced by Folmer and DNF'd. then sold to Polak for "Peanuts"!!
I traded for it with a 906 from Miles sometime in the late 80's(circa) and then converted it back to the normal RSR that did win at Dijon and sold it to Brad H. That's kinda the story..... in short form!
Kevin Jeannette
PS thanks for the heads up Lee
I don't know how I pulled it off but we did surprise him on Christmas morning, one more time. (we gave him a 911R once too)
Great story!
The paint and detail on Brad's car is spectacular!! It is definitely my favorite livery on a '73 RSR. 576 was was in the final stages of restoration at Gunnar while they were building my '72. Most of the unique factory details on mine were copied directly from 576 while it sat next to mine in the shop a few years ago.
BTW - The background on the RSR Turbo Conversion is all documented in pictures on Gunnar's website (www.gunnarracing.com) under the "Projects" tab.
Another good '73video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWOm4...eature=related
Number plate on the 1st RS - PGF270L (44 secs) RHD UK Registered .....
great vid....
That's the Dan Margulies car. Only 2.7RS to compete in the Targa. The owner displayed it at Hedingham Castle last Summer and it's still in very original condition. I only took pictures of the interior unfortunately.
http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/x...p/33e657fd.jpg
Here's another pic of the #107 'after' I got off Pelican.......
Nice jeans. Are those tie-dye or something? I thought the "distressed" look was a more recent fad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RennTyp
And it also won a 1977 round (event) of the British Rally Championship with a later owner at the wheel.
It looks like the guy in the below video needs to read this thread...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlBf5oFc1Wo
It isn't right to rewrite history...even for Porsche. Here is a picture (small file unfortunately...need to blow it up to read it) of the write-up for this RSR at the old museum in 07. It dances around facts a little, saying Muller and van Lennep won the Targa in 73, sort of implying that it was in this RSR, but not stating it directly. The only specific reference to 'this RSR' is that it wrote sports history...which it did in finishing 3rd at the last Targa Florio. But THIS CAR didn't win it like the video says.
could u post more interior pics?
i will se if i can find exterior ones
could you post more pictures?Quote:
Originally Posted by RennTyp
Hello Hugh,
One thing has struck me: Waldegard's car at the Tour of Corsica: I too believe that both TdC cars started life as S/Ts. Larrousse's car, the so named 911 360 0020, survived that rally, Waldegard's was crashed. Could it be that it went back to the factory and was re-shelled with 911 330 0789? That way, when Jurgen Barth looked in the records for that car, that's the number he would see, not the original S/T number. 911 330 0789 has been with Manfred Freisinger, without a roof, for years. He says it was a car from Strahle...
Likewise, after the Tdc, 911 360 0020 may also have been re-numbered from it's original S/T number....
All the best
John Starkey.
(John@johnstarkeycars.com-001 727 384 1179).
after read the whole thread many times this years, i wonder wich one are those RSR
I have a small porsche site, so i like to know more about race cars
Attachment 257129
Attachment 257130
Attachment 257131
Attachment 257132
Attachment 257133
I was under the impression that it had been concluded that the Kitchack (sp?) car was THE real car.
Does anyone have a j-peg of the VIN plate from this car? I need a sharp image for a chapter of The Book. If so, please e-mail the j-peg to jcalzia@usgs.gov
Mucho ThanksAttachment 261918
The above picture (post #834) is Kitchaks' 'real' #8 TF winner, right? I understand it has the Mary Stuart spoiler, but how come it sits on centre lock 917 wheels and has these strange front flares? I never seen 91003600588 in action with those -or have i missed something?
The car kept evolving through the season. That is Nurburgring spec I believe.
Fileger is correct--sorta. The big Group 5 Prototype RSRs were introduced at the Nurburgring 1000km race in May 1973, but it was R7 (0686) that was the debutant, not R6 (0588); 0588 never looked like that. It got the center locks, big wheels and tires, and GRP Mary Stuart tail when it was converted to a Group 5 car for Le Mans (race #47 with yellow recognition colors and a BIG chin spoiler). Then it was converted to a Longtail for the Osterreichring 1000km, sold to Penske for Watkins Glen, sold to "some Mexicans" after WG, and eventually purchased by Kitchak. It was restored by Morespeed in Campbell, CA, to its current livery. 0588 looked like this at the '73 Targa Florio
Attachment 262544Attachment 262545
Hope that helps
PS I'm still looking for a high resolution j-peg of 0588's VIN plate. If anyone has such a thing, I would sure appreciate a copy; I'll put it the book--with proper credit
two more pics
Attachment 262703Attachment 262704
Excellent pictures!
It was acknowledged by the factory at Daytona during group photo shoot RRIII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr9146
Attachment 263356
This photo was mined from the archival site TARGAPEDIA.COM, does anyone recognise it? It appears to be a team photo of the winning car sometime post race. Notice the background, it appears to be northern Europe (the factory?) Forgive me if this is a well known photo - I don't have access to the usual well known publications. More to come...
I have become fascinated by this thread, it is a great story! In the course of reading through from beginning to end (whew! :o), I did some side searching on the web and came across the archival site TARGAPEDIA.COM, I have mined some select photos which I believe add new information:
Attachment 263366
Attachment 263367
Attachment 263368
In the first photo notice the LEO-ZA 60 plate, the "front" plate, with no stickers and no accompanying D tag like the 107T car. The engine appears to be RSR spec, not the standard 210 hp 2.7L RS that the 107T car came with.
The next two photos show a Martini logo free, silver Carrera RSR that looks like R2 (360 0020, LeMans test #61, TF #9) before being modified for qualifying/racing. It is wearing a 107 T! Not the same heavy black "T" seen elsewhere to the left of the 107 but to the right. THREE CARS WORE "107" NUMBERS in the course of events!
I have seen another archival video that shows the logo free silver RSR briefly, apparently during training/testing. It looks like the silver LeMans test car #61 which it has been concluded was the TF #9 car that eventually came 3rd and is now the museum car. I will try and provide a link to it...
Elsewhere in the thread it was suggested that perhaps it was the R2 car, LeMans test #61car and raced as TF #9, that was sent to Sicily in the weeks leading up to the 1973 Targa Florio to be used as the training car. Do these images support that idea? Why would R2 not have complete sponsor logos? Unless it was brought directly from the LeMans test to Sicily to be run (somewhat) discretely on public roads for training purposes? My speculation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhd8...e_gdata_player
I've just come across the source of the above images! Have a look....
Here are more images of the ill fated R8, the original TF 107 car. Also mined from TARGAPEDIA.COM
In the first image you see the original 107 (R8), immediately behind it is the nose of the 107T car which is later modified to become the race TF #107, you can see the original "arrow" style Martini Porsche hood it first wore. The second image shows R8 on course before the Pucci crash.
Attachment 263374
Attachment 263375
In the next sequence you see the aftermath. Notice in photo 4 and photo 5, stuffed into the cabin of the destroyed R8 can be seen the old hood of the 107T car which was swapped off R8. The front bumper was removed and installed on the #9 car.
Attachment 263376
Attachment 263377
Attachment 263378
Parts of a translated interview with Dr.Helmut Marko.
1971 Winner LeMans Porsche 917 driver (with van Lennep).
1972 Targa Florio second place with an Alfa Tipo 33, fasted Targa Florio lap ever raced (33.41).
"..The Targa Florio in 1972 was an adventure that was even then beyond any imagination. First, we went testing around in an Alfa GTA . Then we used our race cars and drove together with trucks and donkey carts .
Sometimes while testing our race cars, in the middle of the track was a police officer who gave us tickets. No idea what his function was. I took the ticket and drove off at full throttle again. In the pit garage, parking tickets were stacked and probably returned to the authorities again after the race.
About the Alfa box was a very good Italian restaurant. We sat there and stopped lap times. If one was faster, we're back in the car, otherwise we continued our meal.
The Targa Florio was three times the difficulty of the Nurburgring Nordschleife. It had different courves, smooth and rough track surfaces. It was difficult to remember the entire 72 km. On some curves you did not know how it looked behond. Down by the sea, there was a five-kilometer stretch. There, the Alfa was slower than the Ferrari and this is why we lost our race (1972).
Security was a foreign word. In the villages, entry doors got been nailed off, the night before official training and on race day. So nobody would run over the road. On race day you would have a huge crowd of spectators. 500,000. No guardrails. People would partially camp on the road and jumped away at the very last moment. It was like driving trough a wave of people. I had to get used to it: driving at 200 km/h full speed towards the crowd.
Because of individual starts, you would drive mostly alone, maybe some times a GT would overtake. Driving there was like there was no tomorrow. I never could have imagined to drive on the track with so much risk.
...In the evening after the race there was the usual victory celebration . It walked around quite happy, when suddenly one approached me and asked me to come along. At another table sat several men with grim faces. They said the race would please them. I got a note with a phone number and was told that I had one wish, should I ever need something .
At first I thought nothing of it, but the next day I heard that it was the highest-ranking men of the Mafia, and being offered something free to a Central European was of unimaginable value. I have never accepted the offer."
Source: MK, Germany, 2013
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...pseac941df.jpg
Hello
Was The Leo Kinnunen fastest lap on Targa Florio ever, not helmut Marko or ?
"The fastest ever was Leo Kinnunen in 1970, lapping in the Porsche 908/3 at 128.571 km/h (79.890 mph) or 33 min 36 seconds flat"
Hi, I'm not a specialist. Quotes from Wikipedia and indeed Wiki lists Marko as well as Kinunnen !Quote:
Originally Posted by hopo
Hi,
I`m not a specialist either, I was just thinking, that It was mr Marko, who has told, that he owns ever lap record in Targa Florio.
Were the circuits the same route both years?
Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by elfer
They quote the factory owns R2 (race number 9, chassis 911 360 0020) driven at TF to third place by Kinnunen/Haldi.
For a long time, R2 was shown at the museum with "fake" livery of winner R6 (race number 8).
R2 is now restored back to its original TF livery with race number 9, including visible roof damages of training accident by Pucci.
It started in 72 as testing car w plates LEO ZA 69 in Weissach and was later driven by Larousse, Lennep and Donohue in France, before early 73 testing in Le Mans and then entering the Traga Florio. After Sicily, Gregg/Chasseuil drove the car in June 73 at Le Mans to Seventh place. Finally, from July to November 73, Steckkönig drove it as a test car.
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psece7e305.jpg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...pse3cff7a9.jpg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psbb0f353c.jpg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1c930fa9.jpg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psc0d8ffdd.jpg
Karim
This is great news
Finally it seems that the factory is recognizing the fantastic pedigree of this car in its own right instead of trying to pass it off as 0588 R6.
R6 had a reasonable race career (7th at 1973 Vallelunga 6 hour with Follmer / Kauhsen , DNF at Monza 1000 with Muller / van Lennep, winner at 1973 Targa with Muller / van Lennep, DNF Le Mans 24 with Haldi / Joest, 8th Zeltweg 1000 with Muller / van Lennep, and 6th Watkins Glen with Donohue / Follmer; although some records give it credit for Spa 1000km with Follmer but that was almost certainly R5 not R6)
However R2 had in my view a more important role and history through 1972 and 1973 that has not been recognized properly by the Museum while it pretended that the car they had was R6 or at a minimum was shown as a "representative car of the period" but with R6's Targa winning livery.
R2 (RS#0020) initially was registered LEO ZA 69 and entered as car #2 for Larousse in the 1972 Tour de Corse (along with R1 RS #0019). This was the competition debut of the RS/RSR.
Attachment 270764
Then it was used in late 1972 at Paul Ricard racetrack as a test car to develop the RSR track car and refine the rear spoiler shape as well as test alternatives
Attachment 270765
These Paul Ricard sessions were followed by Stuttgart university wind tunnel tests in January 1973 testing various aero devices including the chin spoiler and the "Mary Stuart" tail that was famously used at the 1973 Targa on R6, although the first version was used at Spa on R7 (car 41 for Muller / Van Lennep)
These wind tunnel tests with R2 also created both the Monza and Daytona aero packages used later in that year.
By April 1973 R2 had lost is red and white livery, and with the experience of Paul Ricard and the wind tunnel tests, it was entered as car #61 in the le mans test and 4 hour race for Schurti and Koinigg <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:TargetScreenSize>800x600</o:TargetScreenSize> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]-->where it came 4th in GT3000 class.
Attachment 270766
Following Le mans it was the #9 Targa car for Kunnunen and Haldi coming 3rd overall (the way the car is now restored)
After the Targa it went back to the factory and damage was repaired (as well as some other significant changes such as changing the oil system to get rid of the 1972 shell oil door and associated plumbing and replace it with a 1973 one) Then it was lent to Sonauto for Gregg and Chasseuil to drive as the #48 car at Le Mans where it came 14th overall and 7th in class.
Attachment 270768
Following Le Mans it went back to the factory as a test car (still wearing the Le Mans livery) where it tested very large rear wheels, and then was used in the wind tunnels again as the test bed for the various long tail aero configurations that were eventually used later in the season in Austria and in the USA on different cars.
Attachment 270767
After that it was "restored" back to the form it has been in at the museum until lately - representing the spirit of the 1973R cars but none in particular but mostly passed off as the #8 wining Targa car. It was tested by journalists, kept in the museum and toured the world as this car until now when, in my view at least, it has finally been recognized, at least in part, for the rich history it has in its own right
Hugh,
A very good summary of the history of 020. We have come a long way in this thread in revealing some factory history that was not previously well known of how the 911 became a true competitive circuit racer in the early 70s. We may have even influenced the factory to restore 020 to its Targa configuration...who knows. I agree with you and have always felt that the history of 020 was significant enough that it should be represented in one of its historic forms. Rewriting history has never been a good thing, and the internet has helped to reinforce that point. We should collectively feel good about what this thread has done for the history of the 911 in competition.
Great to see 020 go back to it's proper guise as the number 9 Targa Florio car. To me though having gone to all that trouble
it's a shame they didn't recreate it's unique riveted on rear arches from the race, or the taped on prototype Mary Stuart tail
additions it ran.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3812/1...b5081e21_c.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7434/1...6cc2de05_c.jpg
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Sometimes though maybe you can go to far in trying to recreate the fine detail, here's our recreation of the missing 002 Targa Florio car.....
It's on display this weekend at the UK's NEC Classic Car Show in Birmingham.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3748/1...b0ab6849_b.jpg
Picture courtesy Classic Porsche magazine
How cool is that. :)
I know that for 99% of the visitors this didn't make a differences, but just like most of the guys here, i found it silly as the #9 car was (as mentioned before) an important car in its own right. Glad that it finally gets the credit it deserves and that people in the know (the 1%) know what's being displayed is correct.
Amazing thread!!
I contacted some guys here to try to obtain a bit more information.
I was writing a modest spanish book based upon a 911 2.8 RSR Tribute that a friend of mine built in Germany.
I was writing about the RS production and as you know there a lot of missunderstanding over this period.
In Armando Serrano´s web you can see a 1973 2.8 RSR registry:
http://www.pbase.com/archive_racing_...r_factory_cars
If you look at the registry, you could see the factory car R1 (#0019) with the same colors as you said here when talking about #0002
But there's no information attached to corroborate this.
I contacted to Claudio Roddaro, the actual RS1 (#0001) owner. He lives in Monte Carlo, and told me that he is the owner of another 9 units of the 2.8 RSR.
When talking to him, he assured me that the in the '73 Targa Florio, #108T car was the reserve with chassis #0001 (RS 1), NOT the #0002
Claudio Roddaro runs with Jürgen Barth Tour Auto Classic, and Le Mans Classic with RS1 (#0001)
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No. 107, never saw this pic before. (there exists one from another angle)
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psnhya7yc9.jpg
911 360 0002 (or 911 230 0841, the original chassis number of this car) seems to be in France now:
http://porscheclubrsdefrance.com/registres/911-360-002/
And it seems that it was, indeed, LEO- ZA 60.
Please note that the "production number", 102 3901.
There is an interesting article into a French magazine currently avaiblable.
It is mainly about 911 360 0019 (aka R1), but it contains some other information.
Here a summary of what is written.
- 911 360 0002
As 911 230 0841, it was used by Stahle at Zeltweg the 25th June 1972, as a very early RSR prototype. It was then "Project E42".
- 911 360 0019 is R1, and it was were raced during the Tour de Corse 1972. R1 was registered LEO-ZA 68. It was driven by Bjorn Waldegaard (copilot Hans Thorzelius).
The suspension was too soft for Waldegaard's taste and indeed, he crashed it.
It was then more or less repared and used a motor and gearbox test in Weissach. Then, it was dismounted and the chassis ended into Porsche usual "scrap dealer" (Freisinger?).
Later it was found in the USA and used for racing as a 3.0 RSR. John Starkey certainly knows a lot about this part of the history, as he was involved at some point.
Guy Chasseuil (a good period French pilot) has bought if in 2014 and has started the restoration of the car.
He has sold the unfished project to Ronald Hugues who has finished it.
Guy Chasseuil has tested the car recently. It is great in his 1972 TdC livery. It still has its 1972 oil tank, like a 1972 car.
- 911 360 0020 is R2. It was also raced during the Tour de Corse 1972, registered LEO-ZA 69. The driver was Gérard Larousse, the copilot was Christian Delferrier. They didn't finish the Rallye either, with a transmission failure. But the car was used during the Targa Florio 1973, and then during the 24 Hours of Le Mans 1973, as the Sonauto (Porsche French importer) and BP car. Guy Chasseuil was driving it during this event, with Peter Gregg.
Then, it was used for some testing (917 CanAm tires testing) before ending into the museum.
It has lost its 1972 oil tank just after the Targa Florio.
I hope that you have learned something new with this summary ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SKM
>>>>>>>>>>>
Attachment 497672
Gijs van Lennep back in Sicilia with R6:
https://youtu.be/JjqMYAxuRAk
Race footage: https://youtu.be/-y8G9t0aJ60
GREAT footage elfer !!! .... Thanks
Thanks for posting. Nice to see that footage. Whatever the debate about car we know the driver was a winner of that race!
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I was fortunate to have lunch with Gijs Van Lennep last year. Unplanned, we just happened to sit together at an event. Not only discussed the RSR but later the conversation turned to his single seater races for Frank Williams. Prodigious memory that is evident in the film was also clear from our chat — when he heard I had run the formal technical after-action debriefs for the F1 team for a couple of seasons he recounted the trackside discussions he’d had with Frank regarding: wing angles, tyre choices and engine rev limits particularly for the Zandvoort race, so that would’ve been roughly about time of his Porsche RSR drives. Great recall of detail and very animated about things from F1 races that happened about five decades before our lunchtime chat.
“He had two F1 seasons with Williams.
Attachment 597357
He returned to Formula One in July at 1973 Dutch Grand Prix at Zandvoort, driving Frank Williams' Iso-Marlboro IR. He qualified 20th and finished 6th, scoring one point. Later in the year, he finished 9th at Austrian Grand Prix at Österreichring and retired at Italian Grand Prix at Monza. In 1974, Van Lennep competed for Williams at Belgian Grand Prix at Nivelles, finishing 14th. His last attempt with Williams, at 1974 Dutch Grand Prix, wasn't successful and he failed to qualify”.
Steve
Can someone please explain 'Project E42' ??Quote:
Originally Posted by 928cs
If memory serves me it is probably referring to the race in Austria where Porsche fielded a prototype of what was to become the model 73 RS(R). Entered through the Austrian company. Think they did so under that entrant name to not attract too much attention but the eagle eyed Jenks saw through it and wrote about it in Motor Pport that month . Have the original article in my Motor Sport bound copy. Seem to recall the car had abs brakes. It was that article that set my friend the late Lord Lyell off to AFN to buy an RS but they were only launched October. He did however get one the fifty RHD RS quota. I don’t know what chassis that was entered or if that is the Porsche project number fit the work developing the car that was entered in that race however.
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Steve
The latest issue of Sports Car Market has the resolution of R7
What does it say?Quote:
Originally Posted by billh
"project E42" is not quite the correct termQuote:
Originally Posted by Tour de Corse
All factory owned cars were given identity numbers for the financial accounts of the company - ie asset numbers
I911 230 0841n those days the number began with a letter of the year number - ie E was the 1972 MY and F the 1973 MY etc
then they were numbered sequentially as they were taken into the factory financial accounts - so E42 (911 230 0841) was the 42nd E series car to be transferred onto the Porsche asset register as a company owned car
There were exceptions to this numbering series - the R series in 1973 for example like R1
"The litigation recently settled, with Schachter coming away with his car vindicated"Quote:
Originally Posted by 911MRP
"Jacob Shalit filed suit against Schachter, seeking to establish that his car was the real R7"
"Schachter retained noted Porsche expert Andy Prill..Prill engaged Norbert Singer...the car (Schachter's) was taken to Porsche Classic in Germany for inspection"
Terms of the settlement...
-Shalit is free to sell his car but must identify its as a replica..
-The chassis# stamped into Shalit's car must be cut out and surrendered to Schachter
-Shalit's R7 chassis plate must also be surrendered to Schachter