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Hi Tom, thanks for posting all this great work, love the attention to detail that so often is overlooked, like brush painting the black behind the grills. On another detail question, did the factory use captive weld nuts on the front inner fender for the cooler mounting as they did on the right side? And I'm sure you've noticed, but you'll need to redrill the mounting holes on the housings to get the Cibie lenses vertical compared to their Citroen mounting.
Hello Ed,Quote:
Originally Posted by edmayo
The guys make up faux captive weld nuts to replicate the correct look for mounting the cooler. I will post some pics in the coming weeks to show how it looks.
The off-center cast of the Cibie relectors had me concerned about the resulting beam pattern. Thank you for pointing out the solution as it had not occurred to me.
The re-posted image attached below illustrates the cross-eyed look Ed describes.
Tom
Hugh,Quote:
Originally Posted by HughH
It is gratifying to know you are enjoying this thread. Your feedback and posts on this and other threads have been extremely useful as this project progresses. As you can tell, I am writing all this as it happens. So while this thread lacks linearity, it does reflect how it all happens, from month to month.
And, no worries, mate, there will be plenty of updates to come: suspension, engine, induction, fuel system, transmission, exhaust, tuning, chassis set-up. I hope to cover the remainder of the build in detail.
And the sitze, don't forget the sitze!
Our fraternity is a small band of enthusiasts, separated by continents and vast oceans, but this site allows us all the benefits of sharing information on these interesting cars, unencumbered by borders and great distances.
The details I have tried to provide in this thread will hopefully impart to all board members what knowledge has come my way and empower many more enthusiasts to build still better and more authentic looking factory style ST hot rods.
One of my dad’s golfing buddies was also our insurance man and in 1959 he bought a used car. In those days the new model year changeover in Detroit was a much anticipated event and a young kid like me was simply not interested in used cars. My dad had a 220S Cabriolet that he bought from Hoffman Motors on Park Avenue to replace his 1954 Porsche Cabriolet that came from the same dealer. He had learned German from his days at university and in WWII Army Intelligence and admired German engineering. He told me we just had to go see the insurance guy’s car, so we went.
It sat outside his house on the driveway, sleek and Teutonic in silver, tartan plaid inlays on the seats and big, two eared spinners on the hubs of the knock off wheels. Herb had bought himself a four year old 300SL, probably the most exotic German car made in a long time. I liked the car pretty well, but sitting astride the fender was a beautiful little wing mirror, stamped with a perfectly rendered logo, one reminiscent of a silversmith's proof mark Talbot & Co. W. Berlin. It sparkled in the sunlight.
I never thought we would own a gullwing but as a reader of every sports car, hot rod and custom car magazine on the news stand at the candy store, knew exactly where to get a mirror just like the one on Herb’s car. Every mail order accessory catalog offered Talbot mirrors.
I guess that thought has been with me ever since. For example, I started to notice that my friend’s older brother had one on his Healey and that the old guy around the corner had one on his mustard yellow 356 B coupe.
Much later when we went to the Can Am races at Bridgehampton I noticed that fellow Kiwis Bruce McLaren and Denny Hulme had the same pretty little mirrors on their otherwise ferocious M6 sports racing cars. Lots of Ferrari guys seemed to use them too so it was a product that found acceptance across the entire spectrum of the sports car world: F1, Group 6, SCCA, big bore or tiddler, everyone seemed to have one.
Over the years it became apparent that with its inherently distinctive Model 300, Talbot provided the race fraternity with a powerfully emblematic device, recognized by Grand Master and Novice alike. A symbol offered to all those seeking the meaning of high performance, the Talbot represented a first but meaningful step towards true understanding at the high altar of speed.
A product this popular attracted lots of competitors that knocked off Talbot’s perfectly rendered bullet mirror design. Copies appeared in an assortment of chrome plated brass, anodized spun aluminum and at the bottom of the market, lumps of pot metal splashed with iffy chrome plate. Most often, these copies adorned only the cars of those unduly dazzled by imitation and with a false understanding of the symbol. As compared to the original, none shared the perfection of proportion, the clarity of plating or the stability afforded by a sturdy U bolt underpinning an otherwise delicate composition of spun brass and an optical quality German lens, beautifully silvered to reflect only the truest possible image.
Like the designers at Daimler Benz, the men at Zuffenhausen shared a keen enthusiasm for the genuine products from Talbot & Co. In fact genuine Talbot 300 mirrors could be ordered as original equipment on the 356 and as optional equipment for the 911 up through 1967 . Whereas the Benz factory favored the Model 300 Junior (3 ¾” diameter) for the gullwing, Porsche specified the Model 300 Senior (4 ¼”) as original equipment.
Unfortunately the oem market for the Talbot 300 died on December 31, 1967 when the DOT mirror standards in the U.S. dictated larger glass areas. A similar fate befell the lovely small Durant and led to the revised, and to some eyes ungainly, large Durant mirror fitted for all 911 Porsches in MY 1968-71.
Inside the US Sector of West Berlin, Talbot was located at Eberstrasse 62, and advertised itself as home of: the world’s first and most successful “Speed Mirror”!
But while the Porsche factory's road cars bypassed the lovely Talbot "speed mirror" for the somewhat clunky, but more effective offering from Durant, the sporty car world still remembered the beautifully made, lightweight Talbot that had virtually defined “high performance with oem quality” for the past ten years.
Those loyal advocates of the Talbot 300 included the Kremer brothers in Koln, who fitted them to all of their Special GT Group 4 cars, 2,3L and 2,5L, and even on their 2,8 RSR. The 2,3L ST built by the Race Department and sponsored by Chiquita used one as well, as did the Mauroy/Lagniez entry at the 24H in 1971. A common sight at race meetings world wide, the old Talbot lived on.
This all goes to say that for my hot rod, the choice of any other outside rear view mirror never really entered my mind.
Attached images show:
- 67S survivor with Talbot 300 Sr
- Kremer 2,3L w/Talbot 300 Sr
- Chiquita 2,3L w/Talbot 300 Sr
- Kremer 2,5L vipergrun w/Talbot 300 Sr
- Talbot 300 Sr for the hot rod
I have collected a few old Talbots and have been fortunate to find some nice examples. The Talbot 300 Sr. for the hot rod came from Tom Conway at Carquip in Boulder, Colorado, where it came to rest in its well worn box after having been purchased with a batch of close-out inventory from an unknown Porsche dealership.
Porsche continued to list the 300 Sr. under the old 356 part numbers for the SWB 911 MY 1965-67. Listed under option codes 9131, left and 9132, right (not mounted), the factory option list shows the part number for a Talbot mirror as:
644.731.111.07 Outside Rearview Mirror Talbot.
Talbot designed an unusually fine product, one made available to all enthusiasts at a reasonable price, and manufactured it to the highest OEM quality standards. Good enough for a hot rod.
I am going to be sad when this car is finished only because we wont have the fascinating and well-written updates. :)
Better start planning your next project Tom. We need the entertainment. :D
BTW, didnt you recently get some cool engine bits?
Thank you Tom for the great background story about your Dad, Hoffman Motors and the insurance agent. It is always so interesting how certain inane details from our youth stay with us forever, and affect our future directions. As Dave said, we'll miss your commentary when this car is done!
Ed and David:
It is nice to know that you enjoyed some of the memories shared in the prior post regarding those wonderful mirrors manufactured by Talbot & Co. W. Berlin.
The Talbot 300 series represents one of the greatest automotive accessories from the golden era of sports cars, the very same years spanned by the production of the longhood 911.
Of course, in declaring admiration for the Talbot products we are not alone. The Porsche Werks validated the perfection of the Model 300 by assigning it a factory part number.
A factory part number assigned by the Werks was perhaps the greatest compliment paid to a manufacturer of an after-market product.
But, Talbot was not alone in gaining this distinction. Another manufacturer, also at the pinnacle of its market niche, enjoyed that very same supreme compliment, the impramatur of a Werks parts number.
Many special clients of the Race Department preferred to contest the dramatic venues afforded by the European Rallye season rather than on the Circuit venues. Still others competed in both types of events and a few of the surviving factory built ST show evidence of having factory modifications for both types of competition.
Piech considered the 911 to be "show-cased" most properly in Rallye venues, where his uncle's cars demonstrated speed and reliability under admittedly highly demanding conditions but still in an environment familiar and similar to those encountered by prospective customers for the company's road cars. As a result, the number of 911 ST built to Rallye specifications handily out numbers those re-constructed by the Race Department to Circuit specs.
The Competition Spare parts manual lists numerous items for the specialized needs of the Rallyist. For Rallye use, the ST had to provide a competitive platform and meet the needs of not only the competition Driver, but also the Co-driver. Installation of competition RePa harnesses for both occupants of the cockpit provides an example to illustrate this point.
We often refer to the Co-driver as the Navigator, whose responsibilities include keeping precise track of distance and time in order to achieve a good result for the team.
While the speedometer of the 911 includes a reasonably accurate trip odometer, located in full view of the Driver, it was essentially useless under the conditions of an Alpine rally or the demands of mountain stages taken at full throttle at such venues as the Tour de France or Tour de Corse.
Under these circumstances, it was the Co-driver who needed to signal proper route instructions, all indicated by the precise distance travelled, in order to avoid embarrassing and potentially disastrous results for the team.
For these specialized requirements, the Co-driver required precision instruments.
Haldex AB in Halmstad, Sweden manufactured just such an instrument. The Twinmaster, a twin set of odometers that could be adjusted to highly accurate measurements, and which had provision for mounting on the dash on the Co-driver's side of the passenger compartment, gained wide acclaim among rallyists as the best instrument of its kind.
The Race Department agreed with this assessment, as witnessed by the presence of the Halda Twinmaster in the cockpits of so many ST prepared to Rallye specifications.
And yes, the Race Department paid the ulitmate compliment to Haldex AB, as the Twinmaster holds pride of place in the Electrical Equipment section of the Competition Spares List for Type 911S, Competition Type:
911.641.908.00 Twinmaster
Just one simple word, Twinmaster, was perfectly adequate. It required no translation into the German, French, English or Spanish used for all the other entries in the Spares List. Everyone knew exactly it meant: a precision instrument used by every team on the Rallye scene.
One finds the related speedometer drive, bevel drive and "drive shafts" all listed along with the "factory equipment" Twinmaster.
Rallyists referred to the Twinmaster colloquially as a taxi meter. As it turns out, this sobriquet was not far from the truth, as Haldex AB developed the highly specialized Twinmaster product for the tiny niche market of international rallyists as a simple product extension of its real business manufacturing meters for the vast fleets of taxi cabs in the cities all across Europe.
Images attached to the post show the relevant page from the Competition Spares list, the installation of the Twinmaster as devised by the Race Department for a Rallye prepped ST for Zasada and another such installation in a Safari ST.
Back in 2007 my wife and I celebrated our 25th Anniversary. As a present to ourselves we decided to participate in a week-long Rallye organized by Jean and Rich Taylor of Vintage Rallies: the Mountain Mille. We had a great time and enjoyed criss-crossing the Blue Ridge in Virginia and West Virginia.
The Hot Rod was supposed to be finished for that event...but luckily we had another car to take along for the celebration (this is a good excuse to proffer when you want to buy another car).
An enthusiastic entrant, Katie enjoyed the din of a stripped interior combined with barely muffled exhaust and worked well with an Atomic stop watch and the recalibrated speedometer whose readings I sang out to her.
We thought it would be fun to incorporate some of the factory rally equipment on the Hot Rod with a view towards participating in some future events.
A nice gent in Bakersfield, California sold us his ally cased model TWM 1 Halda Twinmaster. He bought it new and used it for many years for SCCA sanctioned rallies and competed up and down the West Coast of the U.S.A. and Canada.
It came in its old home-made plywood fitted case. Drive bevels to attach to the speedometer, extra gears to optimize the accuracy of the instrument, the flexible drive shafts and related clips were included with the Twin, which fits snugly into its section of the case.
We intend to put the property of Mid Cal Sports Cars Ltd. to good use in the Hot Rod.
My image of Switzerland is not just of the Alps, but also the wonderful brand of timers manufactured by Heuer. The Heuer brand name may lead members of this board to think of the great Swiss driver, Jo "Seppi" Siffert and, of course, Seppi brings to mind only one automotive marque: Porsche.
In the years preceding electronic timing, Heuer provided timing equipment to virtually all the teams competing in international rallying - as well as the timing equipment for control towers and race team timers alike at the circuit venues.
For Rally use, almost all Co-drivers preferred timing equipment manufactured by Heuer. And, in period images of rally cars, the most often seen set of Heuers is the Rally-Master.
The Race Department installed a RALLY-MASTER on the dash of many of the ST Rallye cars, most notably all of the Safari cars but others as well including the Zasada car illustrated in post #328.
A Rally-Master was a twin set of clocks, comprised of Heuer's dash mounted 8 day clock and a stop watch with a jumping hour disc, combined on a tidy double mounting plate to be fastened to the dash in front of the Co-driver.
Heuer designated their 8 day dash mount clock the MASTER TIME and, for a Rally-Master pair, combined it with their evocatively named MONTE CARLO model stop watch.
Co-drivers sometimes opted for other variations to suit personal preference but the gold standard of dash mounted timing equipment was a traditional Heuer Rally-Master.
In the early days of SCCA rallying, route instructions were given in 1/100ths of a second. This prompted Heuer to manufacture decimalized versions of their line of dash mounted clocks.
We found a nice original Heuer Rally-Master in Danbury, Connecticut. It came from the daughter of an SCCA member who participated in New England rallies in his TR4 in the 1960s. As you can see, this one is the earlier model with the 3-6-9-12 Master Time combined with a three button Monte Carlo, as manufactured by Heuer up to 1969.
It is interesting to note that the Rally-Master for the hot rod is comprised of a Master Time with a rotating decimalized bezel mated to a Monte with decimalized dial, just as one would expect for an old Rally-Master pair used for SCCA events.
His old Triumph roadster had long since been sold, but the Rally-Master remained tucked away safely in its original Heuer box on the owner's bookshelf, a reminder of those days of sports cars driven on the winding roads in the Connecticut hills.
Kristen sent a kind note with her Dad's Heuers, encouraging their continued good use.
More great stories!
John