The real 73 RSR TF Winner - Porsche Factory Scam??

Raj

but didn't the 107 car have registration plates LEO ZA 68? this one is LEO ZA 60

They would not have changed them. This is a second car that looks almost identical to the 107 car.

It could be another press department car - they seemed to have a lot of LEO ZA plates - RS 015 was LEO ZA 63 and used in brochures and the homologation papers, RS 016 was LEO ZA 64 and the Paris show car for the Press Dept, ........

I wonder if this was the car that is now at Gunnar Racing - RS 017 - that has the Martini Centre stripe under the other paint layers and Frank Galgolly thinks was at the Targa as well in 1973?? the martini paint is certainly in the right place :confused:

however the silver trim and the profile of the rear flares seem to suggest a 72 car rather than a 73 one

Hi Hugh and Raj.

Race # 108 was entered in the 1973 Targa Florio, to be driven by Giulio Pucci and Gunther Steckkonig. According to the results posted in Janos Wimpfen's "Time and Two Seats", it did not start the race. It was entered in the "Grand Touring+2000cc" class, as opposed to the #8, #9 and #107, which were entered in the "Sports 3000cc" class.

From this, one can presume that it was a 2.7/2.8 liter engined car, and that this was the car that was probably used to replace the "original" #107, which Pucci crashed in practice.

Wimpfen reports: (Presumably culled from various period reviews): "Third team car was handled by Steckkonig/Pucci. THIS LAST WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A GT ENTRY BUT WHEN PUCCI DAMAGED IT IN PRACTICE, (Author's caps), the modified T-car was substituted and raced in the Sports category."

It seems probable that this is the car that had the RSR engine from R8 put into it.

John Starkey

More thoughts on the LEO-ZA registration/tag sequence from Raj;

If, indeed, LEO-ZA 67 was 911 360 0019 and LEO-ZA 68 was 911 360 0020, then this adds more weight to my theory that cars with this number were never originally built; According to the "Carrera RS" book by George Konrdsheim, LEO-ZA 67 was a re-constituted 91S/T, (Probably the ex-Zasada 911 230 0769, which was re-numbered by the factory as 911 360 0001), and LEO-ZA 68 was another re-constituted S/T, 911 230 0841, which was re-numbered by the factory as 911 360 0002 (Perhaps re-numbered again to 911 360 0020?) and which is in the Porsche museum now, where this thread all started!

I should point out, however, that th LEO-ZA sequence of numbers were reserved for cars registered at the research and rce department at Weissach, whereas cars built on the production line in Stuttgart were registered in the S-A sequence.

John Starkey

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Originally Posted by varunan123

hugh could that have been 108 between number 9 and 107????

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Raj

the person who originally posted the photo on another site, and by all accounts was at the various targa races in the 70's and took some of these photos, identified the cars as "1973 from left: n°9 Kinnunen_Haldi; n°107T and 107 Pucci-Stekkonig; n°8 Muller-VanLennep "


NOTE he says 107 T not 108T.......

Given what he has posted, including this great shot today, and his apparent vast knowledge of the detail of the race and access to fantastic photos going back to the 1920's, I am inclined to believe his account

I still think these were two different 1972 cars - due to the different license plates. I don't think they would have been changed at the race.

I agree that neither is likely to have been car #9 - that car had temporary license stickers in the race anyway.

I also don't think it was R8. R8 was at Monza and was the latest car - definitely a 73 car. I am inclined to believe that R8 was the original 107 and maybe one of the cars we have seen on the video as 107 - or maybe not. Maybe the 107's on the video are two versions of the same 1972 based car.

The number plates are intriguing. I am trying to cross-reference the photos and other material I have. But I do know that RS 012 did not have LEO-ZA plates. It had plates LB-SN 883 in early 1973.

i have also seen at least 2 sets of plates on RS 015 LEO-ZA 63 and S 04775.

on the other LEO-ZA numbers isn't 69 supposed to be RS 020 at the TdC and 68 the ST? rather than 67 and 68?/

I am now looking for a clear shot of the rear of #107 in the race and in practice to check the number plate to see if it really is LEO-ZA 68 or LEO-ZA 60

enjoy the pic of Muller and van Lennep on car #8

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Originally Posted by varunan123

Hugh wouldn't this account above suggest that 108T could have possibly become the 107 at the race with an engine transplant.

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yes

and it also is possible that the one "T" car could have had numbers 107 and 108 on it (and maybe others even) depending who was driving it

thought i'd offer my .02. I owned the #17 rs before frank. i owned it for quite a few years. it was purchased from a guy in texas. to the best of my knowledge, according to Olaf Lang, the car was the touring press car, it had no factory race history, the stripes were not martini stripes, but added on at a later date, the side vents in front of the rear wheels were also added on at a later date. Olaf was a very, very good friend of mine and helped me with many of my porsches. as you know, he had access to many of the records maintained by the factory. like everyone else, i hope the true history is found out about these cars, not one that is manufactured to fit a car.

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SCAM is the Operative Word here

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Oh yea I have the first 911 ever built :D

Not sure that Porsche would even know based on their so called record keeping ability

Here is a picture of car #9 that I have never seen before

by the looks of it it is in the race - not practice
This is the car the factory says is RS 020 or R2
the front looks very 73 with black trim , but you can see the oil filler on the side
also the damage to the RHR panel is evident - looks like a rough fix - consistent with the story of it being repaired prior to the race

Raj

here is close up pic of the jack area. I dont have a high res pic but it looks like a standard one to me - not a reinforced rallye one
there is no sign of the oil lines. combined with the oil filler it makes a compelling case for a 72!
but the front black grills is interesting - either it has been tricked up to look like a 73 or had front end damage and been repaired with new parts

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Originally Posted by varunan123

hugh that's a tough call on that jack point ............-but it could easily be a case of seeing what you want to see.

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I agree

the photo is out of a French language book "50 ans d'endurance--Volume2"

I have been trying to work out how to get hold of one - who knows what gems might be in it