The real 73 RSR TF Winner - Porsche Factory Scam??

for what its worth, just noticed this:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...berbulge01.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...berbulge02.jpg

looks like a bulge in the rubber seal between the wing and the bumper.

Good catch, Mike. There is no doubt that these 2 pix show the same car. Another small detail that separates the 108T from 107 is the shape of the "1". It is flat on 108T, and droops downward on 107. I don't think they would have changed the "1" in the number just to change to 107. I think 108T was another RSR with Martini stripes, and with the LEO-ZA 60 plate number which also differentiates it from 107's LEO ZA 68 plate.

Gib

Quote:

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Originally Posted by letsrollbabe

Good catch, Mike. There is no doubt that these 2 pix show the same car. Another small detail that separates the 108T from 107 is the shape of the "1". It is flat on 108T, and droops downward on 107.
Gib

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Gib
I thought that at first but I think they are the same - just that the top of the 1 on car 108 is cut off in the picture
if you look at the bottom edge of the bit at the top it is straight and at 90 degrees to the vertical part on both cars.
On all of the pics of 107 you see the whole number which has the sloping part at the top - on 108 you only see a bit of it. If you look at how much of the "0" you can see and compare it with the same part of the 107 car it is clear that a fair bit of the top of the 1 is chopped out of the picture

Hugh:

You are right, it does look like the top of the "1" was chopped off in the picture. It is interesting that by studying these pix, how much you can see that you didn't see that last time. Is the rear flare edge at about 10 o'clock (I can't draw circles on these pix...neanderthal) in the 108T shot slightly dented, as seen in the photo Mike posted of race 107 with the u shaped Martini stripes. These flares do look very similar. I am back to wondering if 108T could possibly be race 107 as Hugh suggested awhile ago. But we would still need to explain the LEO ZA 60 plate, no Martini logo ahead of the number roundel, and why number 108 becomes 107? Maybe the dent really isn't there in the 108T photo, and I am just seeing a flaw in a poor quality image.

Gib

Gib, its hard to tell from this angle on the 108 car. Having said that, if you look very closely at the blow up, there is a slight shading at that spot and the curvature of the arch doesn't look quite right. It's in direct sunlight there, the shading could be where the arch has turned in.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ore/dent02.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...Moore/dent.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ore/dent03.jpg

Gib / Mike

I had not noticed that before - and don't think I would have without Mike's blow up version

I think that is the same piece of damage on both pictures
it is fairly conclusive evidence that 108T and the race 107 with the "U" shaped Martini livery are one and the same car and the earlier post that showed the same bulge in the rubber seal in the bumper on 107 race car and the 107 car that has the centre stripe and looks to have a "T" as well suggests that all three are the same car.

That suggests strongly that that car was LEO ZA 60 and that the models of race car 107 with a LEO ZA 68 plate are incorrect (which is unusual as they usually are very well researched)

This means that this car was used as a T car for both 107 and 108 and then when the original 107 (R8 with the "u" shaped livery) was wrecked it was the substitute 107 race car after receiving the engine from the wrecked R8.

The other interesting thing is the Targa records show a "Martini racing" T car running in practice against van Lennep and Muller's names and that car in GT+2.0 (group 4) class. I suspect that is the same 108T car but with the regular engine.

I still think the factory records that call this car RS002 (the ex Strahle car) are correct and there is nothing substantive that we have seen here to prove otherwise.

Raj

on your point why would the factory give the "R" newest car to Pucci and race it in group 4 when the factory drivers had older cars? I think there is a reasonable explanation.

The factory had only one permanent "team" in 1973 - van Lennep and Muller.

All the other drivers were contracted for the individual race only. (there is a suggestion that they could not afford more than one full time driver pairing.)

Pucci and Steckkönig had been regular drivers for the factory for a long time so were not necessarily "inferior" to the Leo Kinnunen / Claude Haldi pairing.

Indeed Haldi was originally driving the 908 /03 for Porsche Club Romand and only went over to the Martini team during practice, after they had engine trouble with the 908.

Kinnunen and Steckkönig were cross entered in 107 and 9 and Kinnunen is shown as having practiced in 107 but Steckkönig (and Peter Falk who was also entered for 9) never drove car 9.

Van Lennep and Muller had a car they were very familiar with so they were in good shape.(also, importantly, no other driver was cross entered for their car)

R8 had been originally entered in group 4 - not prototype class - at Monza a couple of weeks earlier and was theoretically running in that specification (although the other Italian Porsche team successfully protested its specification and it ran the race in group 5 in the end)

Van Lennep and Muller as the lead team were entered in prototype class along with car 9 which, if it was R2, probably would not have qualified for group 4 anyway.

I don't think it is inconsistent that the "third" team would have been entered in group 4 even though the factory Martini team rarely ran in that class, as they did not want to compete with customer teams. It would not be inconsistent for that team to be given a car that met the group 4 specs - which the new R8 did.

However once it was wrecked and they had to enter the RS 002 car with R8's engine it might have had to run in prototype class as it may not have been eligible for group 4 given the modifications.

The records show that R2 was car #62 at the Le Mans test on 1 April 1973 along with R6 (RS 0588) as car #61.

R6 went on to be the #8 car at the Targa (the only one where there is no dispute ironically given the initial post in this thread) and R2 (RS020) is supposed to be car #9 at the Targa.

We have seen a number of pictures of car 62 at the Le Mans test that all show a "new" 1973 car with the "U" shaped livery and no sign of an oil door - in marked contrast to the car #9 at the Targa which is a 1972 car (or at least has a 1972 oil system) and "old style" martini livery with roundels.

2 pics of car 62 at Le Mans are attached.

So far pictures of car 61 have remained elusive.

I have now found what I believe is a picture of car 61, which is supposed to be R6, and another picture that "might be" of the same car at the Le Mans test.(It is too indistinct to be sure)

both of these are attached.

To me car 61 looks more like car 9 at the Targa and more likely to be R2 than car 62, which looks more likely to be R6.

Finally I have posted a picture of car #81 at Monza which indisputably is R6 just a couple of weeks before the Targa.

Again its livery closely resembles car 62 at the Le Mans test and does not look anything like car 61.

Unfortunately neither of the pictures of car 61 show the crucial area around where the oil door is - or isn't. So there is no confirmation there.

However I believe these pictures make it more likely that car 9 at the targa was R2, based on a 72 shell with an oil door, and it had one since it was built (or converted from an ST).

However by the Le Mans race in June, when R2 was entered as car 48 for Sonauto, it had apparently lost the oil door.

If car 62 at the Le Mans test was really R6, not R2, and car 61 is R2, and turns out to have an oil door, a number of the question about car #9 at the Targa may go away.

note on car 61at Le Mans test:
*wipers park to the left, like car 9
*flag mirror like car 9
*crude flares at rear like car 9 - this would be consistent with reports of them being fashioned when the car was converted from a rallye car at paul ricard a couple of months earlier
* fuel fillers on bonnet the same pattern as car 9 and unlike practice car 107 (or the wagenpass photo for RS020) but same as race car 107 and race car 8 - ie standard RSR prototype fillers
* probably black horn grills and trim as for a 73 car and like car 9 (despite its oil door)
* possible different colored roof as in car 9 - maybe I am seeing what I want to, but it looks like it on my screen

Given I have used up my allotment of pictures in this post I will post a couple of pics of car 9 and 8 for reference in the next post

From the last post; for reference pics of car 9 and 8 at the targa

Hugh:

Great find! We had speculated many posts back as to whether the 61, 62 cars were transposed, but without a pic of 61 it was only a question. These shots plus the details you list really do confirm 61 as 9 in the TF, and not 62.

It does seem to clear up the identity of the 3 Martini finishers in the TF, 8, 9, 107, and does seem to confirm that 002 and 020 were 2 different cars, (race 107, 9 respectively.)

And Mike's blow up of the "dent" really does seem to clear up the 108T/107 race question. The only detail that is still puzzling in the 108T pic is where is that Martini logo. Is it possible that it is there but the lighting in the shot just obscures it? I can't believe it would have been removed and then reinstalled in exactly the same place.

Gib

raj

and compare the Le mans photo with this one!

looks very similar?

and the #9 car and the Le mans car with the second one