The real 73 RSR TF Winner - Porsche Factory Scam??

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Originally Posted by Jim Calzia

Gib: I downloaded that picture from http://hobbystage.net/porsche/mouse/...678-005667.jpg in July 2004, but--I have not been able to open that site since then. Maybe the more digitally inclined computer-meisters on this thread can make it work

Hugh: Here is a pic of R2 at the TdC published by Bill Oursler in the April 2007 Panorama. The oil door is visible here, but--is it the practice car or the rally car and why?
Attachment 41701

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that is a great photo

I had not seen it before (note to self- must buy more books - especially the newish one by Oursler :D )

It is the race car
the number 2 is on the correct car LEO ZA 69
the sticker with the race number is the official one for the race - with the Ferodo signage unlike that on the race number 2 on LEO ZA 68 in the earlier picture

One extra detail

can you make out anything on the quarter windows?
both sides look to me to have air vents like on the 911R's and lLarousse's 1970 TdF car

Is that correct or just a reflection in the photo?

now that I look closely they are on some other pictures (on both sides of he car) but not at Paul Ricard

see the picture of a similar fitting on Larousse's 1970 TdF car

Earlier in this thread it was established that car 48 at Le Mans in 1973, the Sonauto entered car for Gregg and Chasseuil, was R2.
Looking at the photos it appeared that this version of the car no longer had an oil door.

However, given the pictures of car 61 at Le Mans test, the clear oil door at the Targa, and how difficult it is to see the oil door on the TdC #2 car despite good photos, I think it is necessary to reexamine whether or not there is an oil door on car 48, or if it is a case of the photos not being good enough.

The two photos of the car that I have that show the correct area, posted below, do not show an oil door.

However they are both low resolution photos and the area is indistinct. I cannot even see the gap at the trailing edge of the door. Given how hard it is to see the oil door on the TdC car (the level of clarity is about the same as the trailing edge door gap) I think it is not correct to say there is no oil door (unless it cant be seen and the door gap is clearly visible).

Rather I think we need a much better photo before a call can be made, and on what I have seen in recent photos I would be willing to argue that it is more likely than not that there IS an oil door on car 48 even though I can't see it.

Its a scam


Next chapter

Really just a guess but prove me wrong :D

Embedded is another message and pictures I received from Nikolay while I was out of the Office this week.

Dear Jim,

--- I’m only collected a various pictures, facts & details from many years. But I would like to clarification two pictures:
- Picture(what%2520is%2520this%2520at%2520targa.jpg) was made at race “1000 Km Monza” - car number 81. The proof: Above the Sticker DUNLOP there was sticker BILSTEIN, at the Targa Florio there was white sticker Shell;
Attachment 41914

- Picture(0588%20longtail.jpg) was made at race “1000 Km Zeltweg” - car number 7
Attachment 41915

I think the mistakes come from the origin source: www.toadhallracing.com where this images are with WRONG captions.

Also during the race 1000 Km Zeltweg there was torrential rain…. The two RSR was with two wipers(see the post 301 – page 21) at the start, but two RSR was losing the right wiper during the race, please see the enclosed pictures.
Attachment 41917

Attachment 41916

If you would like please publish this in the thread.

These are great pictures especially those from Zeltwig, but--I think the picture of the Mary Sturat tail was taken at the Targa Florio, not Monza. What say you?
Also, Nikolay wrote OK re: publishing his e-mail address. If you would like to write him directly, his e-mail is nikolay.karazlatev@dhl.com

Jim i agree
fantastic photos
i have not seen the Zeltwigl ones in the rain before.

I agree about the photo of the aluminum mary stuart tail most likely to be taken at the targa. i have always thought so - not for a good reason but because we know they had it made up in that format there, the tires are covered in sand / gravel which is more likely to occur at the targa than at monza, and (the weakest reason of all) the background, such as you can see it looks "rustic" and not like a race circuit.

We discussed the shell sticker v the bilstein sticker earlier on in the thread and i think it was raj who pointed out that the shell sticker goes over some of the tape on the tail extension so may have been applied over the bilstein sticker after the tail had been modified

it is interesting that car 9 did not have a shell sticker but did have the bilstein sicker there still at the targa

Nikolay responds!

I’m not agree with you and Hugh regarding picture(what%2520is%2520this%2520at%2520targa.jpg) .
The aluminum mary stuart tail was first introduce at race “1000 Km Monza”.
Please see the enclosed picture I made a mark that show that on the rear bumper there were rectangular light, that on the Targa Florio missing in all picture that I have. Do you have any pictures from Targa Florio with this rectangular light on the rear bumper?
Attachment 42074

Good Point! Nikolay is correct; none of the pictures of the rear end of race #8 (R6) or #9 (R2) at the TF have the rectangular reflector. R6 and R8 were at Monza, and the Mary Stuart tail used at Monza is similar to the MS tail at the TF. So Nikolay may be correct: his picture was taken at Monza. But--what car is it: R6 or R8? I know the sticker in the lower left corner of the rear window was on R7 at Spa, but the MS tail and rear bumper horns at Spa differ from those at the TF. We need to see more car in Nikolay's picture to answer that! One thing is certain: Porsche kept changing those cars a lot between races during the '73 WMC!

Nikolay is certainly correct that the mary stuart tail was used at Monza. i believe it was used before that as well but only in practice at Paul Ricard. I had not considered the photo might have been Monza, in part because I had not considered it was an aluminum one there - I immediately thought it was a "glass" one and the photo I have makes it impossible to tell. Also I have only 2 photos from monza and none from the rear so the thought that this could be monza had not even occurred to me.

I have no photos at the targa of any car with the rear reflectors and Mary stuart tail so it is quite possible this is monza.
The other point is the tail is in a slightly different position to that at the targa pit stop picture - in the latter one the "p" in dunlop is completely covered by tape - in this one it is partly visible. i had always put that down to fine tuning - but maybe it is a different application?

It does not help between R6 and R8 though :( even though the same sticker is on the rear window of R6 at the targa - we don't have R8 to compare

And WHAT is that sticker on the rear window?? it isn't this in the second photo (from the museum) is it?

I can't believe we're on page 36 already!

This is really fascinating but I can't keep up and I'm now lost. I suspect I'm not alone.... I think it would really be useful if one of you could summarize the situation in a couple of paragraphs to allow more members to participate and enjoy "the search". Not sure if it's possible though....

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Originally Posted by varunan123

The one other thing that bothers me about this test is that if this is indeed the factory car and it was greggs car for le mans-how is it possible that you still have the lightened area over the martini stripes and hole where the flag mirror was???I have not been able to resolve that.The flag mirror was not there at le mans and martini scheme gone.But clearly on this picture you can see the faded area where the mirror was attached on the stripes including the holes.And paul frere states that this car ended up at the museum.

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Raj
I agree it is strange. I have no explanation. I can see the shape of the flag mirror base on the martini stripe as well. You cant necessarily even say that the door was transplanted from another car as the holes for the LeMans lights are in the doors. :confused:

However to add to that confusion I don't believe R2 had that martini color / decal combination in ANY event prior to the Frere test - certainly not as the 61 car at the le mans test or the 9 car at the targa or at le mans as the 48 car - so I have no idea how an indent of a flag mirror on martini stripes with holes in the door could have appeared on an original door for the car. Maybe I am losing the plot completely?

We know it was not the real #8 (588) it was a longtail by Zeltwig and then went to the USA.

However.....

The #8 car at Zeltwig was supposed to be R7 (686) the ex Le Mans #46 car.

BUT interestingly at Zeltweig in its "pumped up" wide body appearance at Zeltweig only 2 weeks after Le Mans (see picture) it has no signs of any of the factory Le Mans lights , holes in the doors etc that all 3 of the factory prepared cars had at le mans.

Is it possible the records are wrong on which is which OR is it possible in reconfiguring R7 for Zeltweig they removed a lot of exterior panels, doors, etc to replace them with different, wide body, ones and then used some of the panels to rebuild R2 after its "big wheels" testing?

On this subject I have been meaning to post this photo of the engine bay of the museum car that was sent to me (thanks Dave B:) )

It is the museum car taken in the late 1970's early 1980's. Does the oil filler / system that is visible give enough hints to say 73 or 72? I don't know but I thought you could compare with your cars. My guess is 1973 system or maybe "cant tell".

Also are there other strange features? what about the two cables on the RHS going into the cabin? any idea?

And a a PS to my previous post another reason why I did not consider an aluminum mary stuart at monza was there was a "glass' one at Spa on car 41 and Spa was held between monza and the Targa in 1973.


Finally , Milou, I sympathize.

this has turned into a thread on the history of all the R prototype cars in 1973 with a particular emphasis on the ones that may (or may not) have been at the targa and regular sidetracks to the origins of the RSR's, "R prototype" cars in the ST's etc and what crossover cars there might have been.
I have been tempted to start new threads on some of the issues a number of times but thought it was easier to keep it all together to avoid doubling it up on a number of threads as was starting to happen on the one with the Tour De Corse cars which interrelates with this one.

You have thrown down the challenge - lets see if it can be met?