Huge price and ridiculously high estimate. I guess it's safer to find a lonely bidder and lower the reserve to match it, than let the market express itself freely. Looks like a private sale rather than bidders at an auction....
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Huge price and ridiculously high estimate. I guess it's safer to find a lonely bidder and lower the reserve to match it, than let the market express itself freely. Looks like a private sale rather than bidders at an auction....
great car, reminds me of mine....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoY2ZiXrqdc
According to sale results on their website, the car did not sell.
http://www.rmauctions.com/results/re...?SaleCode=PA15
Auctioneer must have been bidding against the reserve. The RS lightweight also failed to sell. Inflated estimates are breaking an otherwise very healthy market....
But that's awkward ... I was following the auction live and they declared them as sold!Quote:
Originally Posted by Milou
it dident sell , there is more here and more on the high estimates , thomas is ref too
http://www.classicdriver.com/en/arti...ons-sale-paris
M
The problem is that the auction houses (or the owners who consign) think ALL old Porsches, both road and race cars, are worth ALL the money when in fact - as has always been - only the best sells for best money - usually !!
All qualities of Porsche have indeed risen quite a lot but the gap between a top car and an average car is still wide - something these auctions fail to understand.
This car / chassis No, was basically a narrow 2.0 ltr single plug rally car that was over time converted into a group 4 race car with not much decent history there after and in later life.
It's true value would be back to it's original 69 spec. The group 4 parts when removed and sold (race engine etc, etc) would be worth roughy the cost of the restoration back to original spec - give or take - so would cover that.
The original cases of that car in 69 would have been magnesium also - not aluminium as fitted !! - so no worries about loosing the "matching numbers !" (rallies - tour de France, several times Le Mans - inc 2.5 ltr - all with original cases !?!? - "there are no virgins in a whore house " !).
As such, it's not worth anything like - about half - of one of the 21 real 1972 factory 2.5 S-R's - or 2.5 S/T as they are often and mistakenly called ( i.e.; racing originals are 911-R, S-R & RS-R which were all built at the factory to full spec, whilst a ST is a 911S built for competition purposes, either racing or rally, narrow or wide, with a multitude of different and chosen spec's).
I think 900k is the right money for that car, whilst if it had been one of the original factory 2.5 S-R with good history / results / provenance and in top condition it would have certainly gone well above the high estimate. But, as they say, " if my Auntie had balls, she'd be my Uncle" !
Also, rally cars are not, and have never been, worth as much as circuit racing cars - the auction valuation was just too high.
As a rule, these auction houses are no experts, more jack of all trades, and it's usually the the buyers / collectors / owners that set the values. They are far better informed and educated in these cars than the auction houses and - apart from the odd attack of auction fever - know exactly what they are bidding on and paying for.
This is also evident in both the Carrera RS (Touring and LWT) that were in the sale, both very average cars. The LWT was valued way too high, for that car, so didn't sell, and the touring sold at a reasonably high level for an OK ish, non matching car. Not all RS are the same just because they are RS's - as we all know.
When something just right, rare and correct comes up for sale it usually sells for very high money. The market / buyers, as the prices rise, are becoming far more discerning and rightly so.
This bares out in all makes. If you look at the results, not only recent sales but last year also, you'll find that the high prices are still all around, but the car has to be very good or very rare, and if the car is average, then an average estimate should follow. As Thomas said above, "a very healthy market".
I think this is very well said and very true and very healthy. I think people are jaded by the fact that over the past 18 months or so up till the AZ auctions there was a period of time that buyers were a bit too eager to pay top prices for not top cars of all makes at auction. I think the feeling was today's highs seemed like tomorrow's lows and I better just grab one now even if its not a top example well documented etc etc. That past 18 month period was unusual and over. That does not mean the market is bad just more normal and healthy and now people can go back to doing their homework an only paying top $$$ for really top examples. I think moving forward over the next 18 months the story in the vintage car world will be less about a certain make and model going up or down but more about a larger price difference amongst cars of the same make and model depending on condition, history, etc etc. I don't think all 73 RS will go up or down I think you will see the price range widen between 550k-1mln for different examples as opposed to all of them being 750-850k as they somewhat have been recently. I also believe a much larger premium will start to be paid for original non restored good condition cars. People will realize that you are only original once, and many of these shiny fully restored cars have shady not so great history and you really don't know what you are getting.....Quote:
Originally Posted by monaco1
Just returned from Retromobile and was amazed by the asking prices for incorrect cars.....
Maybe nobody cares for correct details beyond the matching numbers and possibly the original color.
Nevertheless, the 911 market has reached a price range where details and model accuracy are to be expected. It will not be sustainable otherwise....
I feel sometimes that English brands are far ahead in terms of restoration details and accuracy.....
Thx Thomas, monaco1 and nyc123 for the analysis, interesting...thx
I was asked to clarify the difference between S-R and S/T, ref my previous post above. Hope it helps to explain ;-
The 1972 2.5 S-R was the 1st factory built 911 lightweight competition car that was also built to a standard FULL race spec and homologated ( the 911-R not being homologated). It was pretty much a 2.5 ltr version of, and shortly followed by 6 months later, the RS-R also built to a standard FULL race spec. Apart from optional gear ratios, caliper type, seat preference and a couple of other minor things, both cars came with everything as standard.
BOTH were offered to customers AND the factory team. ALL were M491 option, both S-R and RS-R, as standard.
All S-R came with a 2.5 ltr high butterfly race engine (either short stroke 911/70 or long stroke 911/73 depending upon use) and all RS-R came with 2.8ltr high butterfly race engine (slightly larger port size butterfly and early had 3 bearing cam, later 4 bearing) - as standard. (Note* Werks RS-R ran 3.0 engines in prototype class).
It was always known as the 911 2.5S Rennen by all, inc the factory, but for some reason in the last decade or two has been confused with the previous S/T.
The 911 S/T, from LATE 69 to 71, was a lwt 911S for competition use and available to BOTH factory werks team AND customers.
All FACTORY BUILT cars were M471 option and then some M491 also on top (You had to order M471 first, which was LWT chassis, to then also have M491, which was race version, - you could not have M491 without also having M471 1st - pre 72).
Then 1972 to 75 M491 was standard for the S-R and RS-R, if you ordered a car it was automatically M491 being a standard FULL spec race car).
The 911 S/T was basically a 'built to order' car depending upon it's ultimate use, race / rally etc, from a long list of options - nothing was standard other than the initial M471. There was no standard spec.
Engines could range from single plug normal 2.2S, to same with rally kit, to full race twin plug in a number of different capacities, 2.3 to 2.4, carb or injection.
Bodies styles were narrow standard body to full group 4 wide body. Steel, aluminium and glass fibre was used on various panels / cars.
Most early cars were Karmann T bodies as lighter - Hence S/T.
The LATE 68 / EARLY 69 cars were a special car, not really a S/T either, not too many made and the 1st LWB cars. A few special LWT S-GT cars with aluminium panels were built and then a few rally cars which were pretty much a standard 911 2.0S with rally or sports purpose equipment - like the one at the Paris auction.
These are pre S/T.
The 911T/R (or T/H - for homologation - as sometimes called) could also be ordered in a multitude of specs, depending upon it's use. These were used by both the Werks team AND also offered to customers. All initially with a single plug 2.0S engine with race or rally equipment added - as per homologation - and then later some had a 2.0 ltd twin plug race engine retro fitted, similar to (although not the same cases !!!) as a 906 engine.
A 911T/R was the homologated race / rally 911 for 1968. It is basically a 911S on a Lightened 911T chassis ( T used as enough produced for homologation purposes and lighter than S chassis). Some of the panels were also made thinner gauge.
911-R ........Built to standard spec (apart from prototypes R1,2,3 &4) but not homologated. Customer AND Werks
911 T/R......No standard spec, built to order. Customer AND Werks
911 S/T......No standard spec, built to order. Customer AND Werks
911 S-R......Built to standard full race spec. Customer AND Werks.
911 RS-R.....Built to standard full race spec. Customer AND Werks ( Werks ran as prototype - Martini sponsered cars R5, 7 etc)
Customers could also order / buy a LWT, but mechanically standard, 911S (from 1969 to 1973 / 2.0ltr, 2.2ltr & 2.4ltr engines) but with no body trim, LWT interior, bucket seats and M471 option, but for normal road use.
I've owned several over the years, closest is similar to buying a 964 or GT3 clubsport for the road nowadays, but much, much rarer !
On top of all these, the Factory built some oddities also, both cars and engines, through the 68 to 71 period (i.e. 2.0 ltr on slide throttle, 2.3 on 'baby' high butterfly, etc, etc) but this is a whole other subject.
Hope this clarifies Philip !, if not call me, you have my number or come for chat (you know where i am - only round the corner !).