The real 73 RSR TF Winner - Porsche Factory Scam??

Hugh:

I am no expert on these facts or conclusions, but only piecing various details together. In researching further in the Carrera RS book, I came across a caption that confirmed Starkey's data that 911 360 020 was indeed "R2", and then another statement that "R1" was a modified 911S, 911 330 0789. Starkey shows R1 being 911 360 019, so that is one of my reasons for suspecting that 020 might have been a renumbered car also. One other piece of data that influenced me is that neither 019 and 020 have a conversion number, which would suggest they were not a normal production RS.

I have no data on RS s/n's 001 through 010 since they are not listed in the BOOK. I have wondered about those numbers, but have seen no source that lists them. Starkey's listing of prototypes does not list any of these numbers either. So, if you have some data on cars with these low numbers, I would very much like to see it.

I am very curious what the s/n is for the 72 that became #107 at the Targa (and was earlier #3 as Ernie confirms). That car is well documented in pictures as being a 72, but I really haven't seen any real data on the VIN.

At the 73 Targa race, Giulio Pucci destroyed both a practice car and competition car during practice laps, so the "mongrel" (which was probably a converted 911S) was upgraded with a new 300 hp engine and it was raced by Pucci/Stekkonig to 6th according to data in the Carrera RS book. Haldi/Kinnunen drove #107 to 3rd according to both the Porsche Sport 73 and CRS book.

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg. #434

Gib

I also am no expert. I have just collected a series of facts, rumours and other statements over the years from various sources - some of which will be correct and some of which will undoubtedly be incorrect.

On the early (<#11) cars the only one I have documented, apart from #02 is #911 360 0001
That car apparently started life as 911 230 0769 a factory 2.5 (ST?) rally car (I think Zasada used it).

It was turned into a RS prototype and was restored by Autofarm in the UK in about 1995. I understand it is currently in the US.

I have kept an eye out for cars with numbers between 1 and 10 for many years as I believe some at least existed as prototypes built off old (1972) shells possibly all from recycled competition cars. From memory, neither the RS book or starkey comment on why the numbers start at 11.

I take your point about conversion numbers but NONE of the RSH cars had one ie there were 17 cars with no conversion number - some of these were Factory R cars some were other factory cars (paris show car #16 and press car) and some were customer cars. I suspect that all the cars from #11 on were genuine builds (but some on "new" unnumbered 72 shells) but some cars up to #10 were rebuilds of old cars with previous numbers for testing etc

I also have recorded that R1 was originally a 1973 S #789 but I think it is from the same source as you. It is interesting that R1 and R2 have consecutive production numbers (1089 and 1090) as well as chassis numbers (19 and 20)They would have gone along the line together. However it surprises me that a 73 S with a number as high as #789 could have been built BEFORE the 10th RS which was in turn only the 1089th 911 of all types built in the 1973 model year:confused: :confused:

I have also seen elsewhere that #11, #12 #13 and #14 were ALL prototypes built using 72 shells and all had the oil tank etc. They were built in APRIL and May 1972 a good 4 months before MY 73 production started.
The RS book also shows #15 ,16 and 17 being built in July and #18 built in August. It would be a good bet that at least some of those had a 72 shell.

On the results I am confused. You mention Haldi/Kinnunen drove #107 to 3rd according to both the Porsche Sport 73 and CRS book and Pucci/Stekkonig were 6th. The targa site http://www.targaflorio.info/index22.htm and a couple of others show CARRERA RSR 3000 (#9) - LEO KINNUNEN / CLAUDE HALDI as 3rd and CARRERA RSR 3000(#107) - GUNTHER STECKKONIG / GIULIO PUCCI as 6th:confused:

Also the race results section of classiccar.com shows
3. 9 Leo Kinnunen / SF Claude Haldi / CH - DNP Martini Racing Porsche Car 911 360 0020 R2 11 7:12:42,700 3. S3.0 15. 40:44,600

and 6. 107 Günter Steckkönig / D Giulio Pucci / I Martini Racing Porsche Carrer 911 360 0002 11 7:27:30,100 4. S3.0 8. 38:40,500

Now I know it is easy for one error to be repeated from one place to another, and I like source documents from the time (but even they can be wrong) but this seems in conflict with what you have:confused:


I look forward to any more clarifying information

Gib

one more thing. i just noticed a note hidden in my database that may add some clarity (or more confusion.)

Frank Gallogly might be able to help on this because the note is against #17 and states

" frank gallogly owned 017;"when i got it it was a roller with slant nose and 935 flairs,not to mention this was the car used for the sales brouchure;it belonged to the race dept;pressed into service for the 73 targa florio when there was an accident with one of the favtory race cars.it now belongs to kevin jeanette of gunnar porsche "


Given it is a July 72 build car it is likely that it also had a 72 oil tank system

Frank - can you clarify any of this?

Hugh:

It does appear that the order of finish is in question for #9 and #107, but both appear to have been 72 911 bodies, based on Jim's picture of #9. The drivers themselves would be able to clear this up..or others directlly involved in the competition. It's probably just a case of trivia unless one owns one of the cars in question, or that claims to be one of these cars.

It is just interesting that the Factory would be so frugal that it would renumber competition cars from one model year to the next. I guess it shows that budget issues were a factor in business decisions then as well as today.

I hope we get others to chime in here with facts that can shed light on this very interesting thread.

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg. #434

Hugh ,I DID OWN #17 FOR A short period of time and gave it to kevin jeanette for payment to restore a very important car,I didn't do any research on the car,but when kevin took off the paint layers undernith was original martini race trim;later I was informed by Starky his records showed this car was a factory press car and used in the '73 targa.Kevin is now giving it a full restoration I THINK THERE ARE SOME PHOTOS ON HIS WEB SITE GUNNARRACING.COM;My understanding from him is that the car should be done by the Portland Parade.you're right it was produced in 7/72;one of the first ptotptypes.It was also the factory bruchure car.Kevin has been researching this car for a while,he has the answers.This is a very special car

Hi Y'All

Sorry for the silence; I have a map that needs review, so--work got in the way! Nonetheless, you guys are doing great--this thread is FANTASTIC!

Platas-Thank you for the offer and yes, I do have two wishes. First, try to get as many pictures of the '73 RSR in the Museum as you can, especially the VIN plate, engine detail, and chassis reinforcement. That is assuming, of course, the Museum is open and the car is on display. Second, ask your friend in the Race Dept if he/she has or can compile a list and photos of Porsche entries in the 1972 Europa, Bulgaria, and Tour de Corse rallys. This data may help solve the confusion re: the early RSR prototypes and race cars.

Gib/Hugh-How do you know that TF race #107 is a '72 tub? Gib, that is a good point re: the light color trim around the horn grills, but--look at the winglets on the black&white photo of race #8 below.
Attachment 16167
Color photos show that they are flat black! I have learned not to believe the various shades and colors on published photos. They are probably close, but bright sunlight, printing inks, time, etc, etc can really screw things up. Also, those are the normal (as opposed to funky) 11" rear flares on #107 as well as race #5 at the '72 Osterreichring. Porsche raced with those flares until the '73 Nurburgring. Finally, how do you know that #107 was red? I have never seen a color photo of that car.

Hugh-I'm beginning to believe that Porsche brought more than five cars to the TF. Someone (forgot the source but will check) that two practice cars were shipped to Sicily two (maybe three) weeks prior to the event. I wondered about this because who was gonna drive them. Not the race team because they were at Monza and Spa. So what's the point of sending cars to practice weeks in advance--it's expensive and they could get wrecked!

Jim:

If you look at the photo of 107 from the TF, and compare it to the photo on p. 53 of the CRS book, it is pretty easy to conclude that the "red RSR" pictured on p. 53, 54 is that same car as shown as #107 at TF. A good clue also is to follow the #3 interim Martini version (which I say is this same 72 car), and look at how the stripes were done on the front hood, and the placement of the hood fuel filler hole, as well as the rear flares and silver trimmed TS's. When you look closely at the picture of #107, you can see the Martini stripes at the top of the cowl from the #3 paint scheme, so the hood was changed, but no side Martini stripes were present (as in #3). as would normally have been done to match with the hood used.

The wind tunnel test pictures of Martini #3 (plus the pic shown above of the right side at speed) clearly show this car is the same as shown as the red 72 prototype on p. 53 of the CRS book, in my opinion. Clues: rear flare, mud flap, silver trim on TS, fuel filler hole in hood, pop out qtr windows (Ernie's observation).

BTW, I went to the Gunnar Racing web site, and indeed, one picture of the restoration of Frank's former RSR #17 on the passenger side B pillar shows a circular hole which would have been the oil door release from a 72 body. So Frank's car was apparently based on a renumbered or new 72 body it would appear.

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg. #434

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 210bhp

Can't quite see but there looks to be another no.8 car in that photo near identical to the car in question
Regards
Mike

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Very observant and with an interesting story.

So let me "clarify" for all.

I handle "all" of PK's cars. I know the Mary Stuart , 1973 Porsche RSR, Martini Prototype, 911.360.0588 R6 the Targa Florio winning car intimately.

In the Rennsport Photo, you will see the "other car" that the factory has. The reason it is behind ours "the TF winner aka Mary Stuart" is because it is not the TF winner whereas PK's car is....

I was there standing at the lift crane when the group photo was being shot. Norbert Singer and Kerry Morse were standing right next to me. As they began lining up for the "911" photo, they called for the Targa Florio winner and the "factory boys" started to roll up the "other car". In a firm voice I told the guy with the bull horn, "Sir, that is NOT the Targa winner. I brought the Targa Florio winner complete with Mary Stuart Tail" and it is way back there at the back corner (see other Rennsport photo with all car and you will see it way back at far right as we were the last car to get there for the photo due to late transport). The gentleman asked while looking at Norbert Singer "Mary Stuart, is he right?" Norbert looked a bit towards the ground and then said, "Yes that is the right car, Kitchak's car is the Targa Florio winner." We were then asked to push 0588 in front of the "other car" and that is what you see behind us. In the mean time, Kerry Morse began into a big debate upon how the Mary Stuart tail was restored.....as you see Norbert Singer supplied us "Kerry Morse" drawings to reconstruct it properly after it had been removed "banned" and found in condition as raced by Roger Penske with Mark Donahue at the wheel. The car was restored back to the "Mary Stuart" bodywork as that is the only way Norbert would help with the restoration. He felt that was it's most significant and "best" format as it raced for the factory was in the Mary Stuart bodywork configuration and updated suspension and brakes (centerlock hubs,917brakes, Titanium springs, etc, etc. This car also has "all" factory documentation.

Needless to say, we were not happy about this "confusion". But it has been clearly documented in writing to us, but never publicly confirmed. A private collector tried to buy the car this past year for over 1 million US through a broker, I think it may have been the factory.

FYI, you may want to note that Kitchak not Kaufmann had the car restored and Peter went to great length to get all the pieces of this car back "the original pieces" that were stripped off this car. This car has very unique components unlike the other prototypes and thus sets it apart and why Norbert Singer wanted it restored back to the Mary Stuart Martini Racing body and livery as it raced at LeMans as no 47

I have had the priviledge to work on this car for a long time now as well as drive it on a number of occassions at Elkhart and Daytona. It is a stunning car that I personally think is second to NO other RSR. I look forward to taking this car back to Goodwood for Peter and supporting the two of them again this year.

Below is my personal photo where the cars are still being lined up.

David Moore
Moorespeed Race Engineering
www.moorespeed.com

[QUOTE=Jim Calzia] but--look at the winglets on the black&white photo of race #8 below.
[QUOTE]

I believe that is 0588 with the "aluminum" version of the Mary Stuart tail which was done prior to making molds and modifying it into a "fiberglass" tail.

FYI
I have found this thread totally facinating and have learned so much but just to be accurate.....if this special car has bodywork/tail named after the Queen of Scots it should be Mary Stuart and not Mary Stewart
Regards
Mike