Beautiful car, Karim. Please post more pics as it finishes and also of the engine. Love the color!
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Beautiful car, Karim. Please post more pics as it finishes and also of the engine. Love the color!
Great, I'm really looking forward to seeing this car in action in July!
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsrollbabe
Gib, was there ever an answer to this?
Mike Curnow posted these pics from his 73 RSR which show how it was done by the factory. I feel quite sure it would have been done this way for STs too.
Here is a link to his comments. http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...811#post790811
outstanding!
thanks.
1108 as it was yesterday in the Paddocks, ready for Le Mans Classic.
For further info pls see the two earlier posts on this thread, some pages earlier.
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Hahah! you catch me on your 2nd picture! we were examining this Chiquita as well!
Is the car still owned by 'OS' (long term owner) or did he sell it ?
It is time to update this thread again
At the start of this thread I posted this document that had been posted in other threads in particular about the evolution of the RSR cars.
Attachment 405924
At the time I thought that it was a list of 1972 "ST's" and most of their engine numbers. It was apparently put together in the 1980's by Fred Hampton and Olaf Lang. Recently I was also shown this other list that predates the one originally posted but was almost certainly the source for it. There are some minor differences and it looks like the one that was posted was done sometime after this one correcting the errors and adding a couple of other cars.
Attachment 405925
After a closer look at both documents recently I have formed a view that the list is not just "1972 ST's" but rather a combination of the 21 911 2.5S M491 customer cars produced in 1972 - sometimes called SR's although that appears to be a more recent term as ST's is - three werks M491 cars, some "versuch" cars use in the development of the 1973 RS's and RSR's and some special family, or close friends', cars. I think that these 21 2.5M491 customer cars were the first real "turn key" identical competition cars sold directly from the factory as opposed to cars being built up from a base car and a parts list either at the factory or by clients directly. There is a slight discrepancy in the number of these car that were built. Most sources say 21 customer cars but some sources say 20 and some say 24: but I believe that the correct number was probably 21 and the extra 3 to make the 24 figure were the three Werks cars (2 Monte carlo rally cars and the "Strahle" "RSR prototype" 9112300841.
Moreover it appears that while almost all of the engine numbers are in the range 662 2xxx, unusually (at least to me) this range covers not only different engine types but also different engine sizes in particular what appear to be 2.8 RSR development engines. The type number seem to cover (at least) 2.5 (2492) 911/70, 2.5 (2464) 911/73 and 2.8 (2808) 911/72 engine types.
Some of the details of some of these cars has already been covered in this thread, but looking back on it recently I dont think that a clear distinction or identification has been made on the M491 "customer cars" that I think this list shows. Also looking at this again has made me believe that these 21 customer cars had a distinguishing body feature that may allow them to be distinguished from "kit built" cars. In this thread that feature has been remarked a couple of times as the rectangular ducts in the front spoiler - with speculation that it was for brake ducting. On examining all of the cars I can identify as 2.5 Customer M491 cars all seem to have this feature but others such as the Kremer built ones or the Brumos built ones had a similar but not identical feature.
I think that I can identify 16 of these 21 customer cars by Vin number and who raced them and probably identify most of the other VIN numbers but not the actual cars linked to them. I also have some photos of 3 other cars that appear to be 1972S M491 customer cars but cant pin a VIN number on them.
In the next couple of posts I will attempt to detail which I think are M491 customer cars (for some I have copies of factory documentation confirming it - and also calling them 911S 2.5 M491 with no mention of "SR" or "ST") as well as the Werks cars and most of the other cars on this list. There are a couple of cars that I cannot identify which are either Versuch or family cars with my guess leaning towards them being prototypes for the RS or maybe for the RSR's.
I would welcome all input to help firm this up, especially on the identity of the extra M491 cars that I cannot identify. Also I think that some of these M491 customer cars may have been originally "owned" by the various Porsche distributors in Germany and leased to favored clients to race as some seem to have had multiple drivers in 1972 and where sponsorship is shown in race entries or race result documents the sponsor is shown as "Porsche". Also it seems that except in certain races these cars did not appear to be very successful in the 1972 year and they may have been the cars that were considered "un-competitive" resulting in the accelerated program to develop the RS/RSR in early 1972.
The publication of the new RS book by Georg Konradsheim has added another twist to all of this. It shows that in the first two events contested by the Factory RSR's (Daytona and Vallelunga) those cars used engines in the 662 2xxx series rather than 663 xxxx engines.
Here is my attempt at allocating the identity to each of the cars on the list initially posted with reference also to the other list.
The list initially posted has extra cars at the bottom, only one of which is visible – 00769 a factory Versuch car E40, was the Zasada rally car that went on to become RS0001. Here is a photo of a rally car for Zasada which is presumed to be 00769 in the Sachs Rallye Baltic on 23 September 1972. I am using presumed in this context as the car carries the same registration car to the car AZasada used earlier in the year but that car was in a big accident on the rally of Poland on 16 July resulting in it having to be rebuilt. The records above show it as "scrapped" on 25 August 1972 which is when it was turned into RS0001. The car he was using earlier in the year however looked near enough identical to this car.
Attachment 405916
3 Werks Cars
From the top of the lsit 00041 (E27) (possibly also called R1) and 00047 (E29) (possibly also called R2) were the two 1972 Monte Carlo rally cars for Larousse and Waldegaard respectively. They apparently had engines 6622002, 6622003 (both 911/73’s), 6622007, and possibly 6620019 (and maybe even 6630021 which is shown as the engine for RS 00011) in them at some stage but were delivered without engine or gearbox which is probably why nothing is shown on the list.
00041, below was originally the Monte caro car #4 for Larousse, and later a track car #70, run by Strahle in this event, the Nurburgring 1000kms on May 28 1972, and later in early September 1972 a recce/ pracice car for the 1972 Tour De Corse with a 2.8 engine in it.
Attachment 405918Attachment 405917
00047 was the Waldegaard #15 car at the 1972 monte Carlo, then went on to do the Swedish rally, the Acropolis, both with Waldegaard as factory entries, the Olympia rally for team Matter presumably loaned to them, the tour de corse recce before being used for homologation work for the RSR and then as a recce/ practice car in Africa in March 1973.
Attachment 405920
00841 (E42) (possibly also called R3) a ST / RSR prototype for Strahle in 1972 that went on to become RS0002 the Martini RSR press car #3, Targa Florio car #107 and a werks wind tunnel car for RSR’s. It is shown as “scrapped” when it was turned into the RS RS0002. The engine in that was a twin plug 2.8 type unknown but possibly 911/72.
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the next posts will cover the 21 "Known" and probably M491 customer cars
Here are the "customer cars" that I think I can identify as well as the ones I believe are customer cars but cant identify in the order they are shown in the list.
21 Definite or likely M491 customer cars
1) 00495 was a light yellow M491 car used either at factory or on the track in Europe possibly by one of the German Porsche distributors and later sold to Vasek Polak. Last heard of was still in USA. The engine 6622021 which is still with the car is documented to be a 911/70 one (2492).
Attachment 405926
2) 00538 M491 customer car; Light Yellow - The Keyser ST shown as having engine 6622022 on these lists but can’t have kept it as that engine was with RS0001 when Autofarm had it for Stanley Palmer in 1974 and it was then a twin plug 2.8 prototype, as it may have been from new. (They also had 6622005 as a part of that package and it was also a twin plug 2.8)
Attachment 405927
3) 00550 was probably a M491 customer car as well but I don’t have a record of it
4) 00818 a M491 customer car Eberthard Sindel “Liquid Moly” Racing history in 1972 included Targa Florio (car #28 ) and Monthléry (car#27) modified in 2.8L RSR for the 73 season. Probably Light Ivory.
Attachment 405928
5) 00870 M491 customer car for Strahle – used at targa florio (1st in class) and other track events – had the big shield on front hood was sold recently via Edmund Harris with French licence plates on it. Engine type unknown but called a 2.5 Gp4 when for sale (probably 911/70)
Attachment 405929
6) 00872 a M491 customer car Delivered new in Switzerland to Schiller Racing
Driver for 1972 / 1973 season: Florian Vetsch 1000 km Monza 1972 Targa Florio 1972 (car #27). Tangerine at least at the beginning
Attachment 405930
7) 00908 M491 customer car ex- Clemens Schickentanz. Blue was sponsored by Oldekott still in Germany restored by Roock. engine 662 2029?
Attachment 405931
8) 00909 M491 customer car First owner: Zbinden. Light Ivory. Race history 1972 – 76. Last hear of still in Germany / Switzerland somewhere being restored
Attachment 405932
9) 00910 M491 customer car (SR) Nordrhein Being restored in Germany. Albert Blue (was front blue car on cover of Feb 1973 Christophorus along with at least 3 sister cars - the next three in the photo below)
1972 1000 Km Spa, car n°52, drivers : Werner Christmann and Hans Heyer, result : 11th
1972 1000 km Nurburgring, car n°72, drivers : Dieter Frohlich and Willi Nolte, result : DNF
1972 DRM Diepholz, car n°128, driver : Jürgen Barth, result : 5th
1972 DRM Sauerland, car n°197, driver : Jürgen Neuhaus, result : 4th
1974 DRM Duren, car n°259, driver : Gerhard Holup
2015 : still in Germany
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10) 00921 M491 2.5 customer car Signal Yellow. was IMSA GTU car #51, for Johnson-Bozzani in USA
Virginia 250 Miles 1972, car n°48, Dave Helmick, result : 12th
Watkins Glen 6h 1972, car n°43, Dave Helmick, result : 8th
24 hours of Daytona 1973, car n°43, Dave Helmick, result : 11th
Attachment 405934
11) 00934 M491 customer car for Jurgen Krizkalla in Berlin then Ludwig Heimrath, Canada last heard of in late 90’s being restored in Florida Race history in 1973 : Road Atlanta, Lime Rock, Watkins glen, Daytona
photo at Edmunton 1973 - was this Sepia or are my eyes deceiving me? Edit: it must have been the colour in the photos fading the car was tangerine see post #469
Attachment 405935
I have run out of room to put in photos so continued in the next post