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I have just had a note from Nikolay about the comment in the RS book that after the stint on the second car from the TdC was used as a practice car at the 1978 Safari
He points out that this could be another typo and really mean 1973 Safari and notes that I posted, a long time ago, a picture of a car in TdC colors from Tobias Achiles book here at post #9 Rally testing in (for?) Africa.
It is also obvious from the photo that the car had been rolled at some stage and not really repaired
Raj
i have never been able to work out what 911 360 0092 was or what it became.
I would say a factory test or competition car but have never seen any details - maybe Brian F has some info?
911 360 0285 is easy - S-AR-7909: rally car for Leo Kinnunen in 1000 Lakes Rally 1973 (car #3) the 1973 safari car for Bjorn Waldegaard as car #10 and again at the safari in 1974 for Hermann/ Schuller as car #41.
It is now restored as car #41 in Kuhne & Nagel livery in germany
sister car to this is 911 360 0288
Hugh:
No answer has ever been posted as to how the Wagenpass for 0020 R2 shows this picture, which looks very much like the press car #3, and 107. I don't think R2 ever looked like this picture....so how reliable are the Wagenpass documents?
The Safari's date in 1973 was April 19-22, i.e BEFORE the Targa Florio.
I too had gone down the line of thinking this is where the "missing" car(s) might have gone, but apart from the date not fitting:
S-AK1337 was a Safari practice car in 1973 and this is the car that Jurgen told me was sold after the rally in Kenya as: "A spectator sitting in a tree fell on it!" (Presumably the "rolled car" Hugh?) Presumably, it may still be there.
Gib,
The Wagenpass for 911 360 0020, (R2), perhaps does show the correct photo? That ties in with Konradsheim's "RS" book information.
Hugh:
Ref: "i cant see that reference in my book
I think that this thread has proven that BOTH R2 (RS 0020) and RS 0002 were at the targa; RS 0020 being placed third (race #9) and RS 0002 being place 6th (race #107)
One of the biggest problems to me is the subtle difference between internal designations R1 (RS 0019) R2 (RS0020) etc and real chassis numbers RS 1 (0001) and RS2 (0002)"
Look at P162, the caption distinguishing which car was which at the Tdc. It says that #2, LEO ZA 68 was driven by Waldegard, #6, LEO ZA 69 by Larrousse!
John, Raj, Hugh: I claim no credentials or special knowledge of this subject matter and the fate of this car has long been speculated about. As you guys have access to factory material and sources that are in the know, I have held back from chiming in on this thread. However, I have heard a tale from an elfer in Germany that this car was given to a friend of the race department for the cost of transport from Africa back to Germany. Upon arrival, the tub was judged to be unserviceable and subsequently stripped of its parts, cut up and scrapped. The Teldex brake set up is/was still extant. As I said, this may well be just a tale, perhaps of the tall variety.
John I am still confused - and I think it has something to do with "car #2"
the caption on page 162 , and the photo on page 163 "does my head in".
My caption (RS book english version 2325/3000 printed ?? but I bought it in 1994) says in part,
"Two cars driven by Waldegaard/ Thorszelius (LEO ZA 68) and Larrousse / Delferrier (LEO ZA 69) started the race but neither made it to the finish line"
Further on it states the chassis number for both cars.
The accompanying photo on page 162 shows a car with plates LEO ZA 69 with a race #2 on a rally plate (which I believe is correct and was the Larrousse car) HOWEVER the black and white photo on page 163 shows a car with plates LEO ZA 68 , presumably the waldegaard car, also with a race #2 on its side but no rally plate.
I have a photo of LEO ZA 68 from the back - the same one raj has posted above- with race #2 on it.
However all other photos of LEO ZA 68 have race #6 on it and all photos of LEO ZA 69 have race #2 on it
If you look closely at the race #2 on the LEO ZA 68 car it does NOT have the "Ferrodo" and the logo on the bottom of the decal under the race number. (also It does not have the word "SHELL" on the shell decal at the rear of the car that LEO ZA 69 does)
ALL other cars at the 1972 TdC have the ferrodo and logo below the race number. So the black and white photo in the RS book of LEO ZA 68 and the one that raj posted above is either in practice or at another event that has never been disclosed.
The different shell decals are the evidence (albeit tenuous) that the licence plates did not get changed from one car to the other.
The side on shots of car #2 clearly show Larrousse driving as does a black and white one (both attached)
I have also posted a picture of LEO ZA 68 wearing rally plate #6 and with what looks like waldegaard driving it
So Raj
from this you can see that you posted the rear of BOTH cars above - even though the both look to have the same race number
I have yet to see a good explanation (or one at all) of this discrepency
also raj that photo of the car in the mud you posted above is the one I described as having rolled - it has damage to the roof, the rear widow has popped and had to be put back with crude restraints, the LHS rear (on the picture) guard has damage as does the ducktail
I take your point that the rear bumper treatment is different to both cars at the TDC But they may have been replaced depending on what damage occurred at the TdC. I think this damage - and the crude repairs is consistent with the reports that Waldegaard "demolished" his car at the TdC and it was repaired and then used for testing
John
i thought that the practice car in africa had the same colour scheme (in broad terms) as the monte cars from 1972 - not one like these TdC cars??
PS
I just got an email fro Nikolay who referred me back to this post
Hugh, Raj, et al,
Yes, totally confusing and I'm not capable, (or willing!) to try to explain the number switching except to suggest between practice and the rally itself. Why, I have no idea! Ask Norbert? He was there.
Hugh: Yes, S-AK1337 was in it's "Monte" colors still when used in the 1973 Safari as a practice car.
Whilst the idea of the 911 360 0002 car being given away and then stripped of parts sounds realistic, we have no proof.
Beginning to wonder...As 911 230 0769 became 911 360 0001, did 911 230 0841 become 911 360 0020? Conversely, could 911 230 0769 have been intended to become 911 360 0019? Only factory records could show.
In Jim Garfield's posted picture showing the pits for the 73 TF, we get another example of the factory switching plates. Notice what appears to be the LEO ZA 60 plate on what looks to be 0020 #9 (left car-without any Martini paint) sitting next to T 107, which we know became just 107 in the race...which had this same plate mounted as shown in the process of being prepared for the race after the original 107 was wrecked.