The real 73 RSR TF Winner - Porsche Factory Scam??

Hi Raj

Nikolay has emailed me this morning re post #739 - and I have not seen his email until now.

he said the following to me a couple of weeks ago

"My version about #6 from TdC:

I don’t think that the car was used in Africa. This car was used only for test in Germany at the PANZER test track for preparation for 1973 Safari Rally. After this the car was dismantled and checked(like R4 after Daytona’73). At 1977 year the chassis was assembled with feature of G-series model and painted Yellow and has other Registration Nr. “BB-JE 917” (the car from the DVD that I was sent to you both) and used for preparation for 1978 Safari Rally.

This my presumption is based on that - in his book Jurgen Barth was quoted this “Fahrgestell-Nr. 911 330 0789” two times:

as 1972 Carrera RS2.8 ”Corsica”
and as "Trainingswagen for 1978 Safari Rally”

Please watch my DVD. On 1.04 minute there was Vic Preston jr.driving the yellow test car and see the steering wheel, it is like the Carrera RS (please see the first two attached photos). The official rally cars at Safari 1978 Rally was with other steering wheel (please see the third atttached photo). N.B. B.Waldegaard is not in this yellow car (DVD at 1.30 – 1.40minute). He was driving the other training car – please see the black frame inside, not a silver. This is a film producer mounting."

Attached is a scan out of the Barth book that he sent the other day that clearly shows the car in two guises (or not so clear after I had to reduce it)
I will post an extract to make it clearer to read

To me that would make some sense if the car was dismantled after tests on the endurance track

Obviously if it was to be recycled again it would be made up as a "modern" car. It would appear that more than one car that has been "scrapped" has returned in a different form at a later date....including ST's and probably R4.

If this happened to this car it would probably be double recycling - from something into an RSR and then into a G series. The chances of such a car really being scrapped after all of that must be high - if only due to metal fatigue.

I don't think that it is possible however to prove any of this one way or the other without access to factory documents - which obviously both Barth and the RS book authors did have, or access to the car itself. (unlikely to ever occur now but who knows :) )

Raj as I understand it it is not that hard to "update a long hood to make it look like a short hood - it was done here a lot of times in "updating " cars looks. (and is currently being done in reverse with turning SC's into "longhoods"). If the car was really dismantled and rebuilt it would not be difficult at all at the factory especially if it was a cosmetic update - front and rear panels only - not the internals of the car - interior trim etc. Also I would expect the factory to field a car that at least looked like a current model at any competition event.

here are photos that are of the same car in the DVD that Nikolay sent me

I can read a part of the registration plate on one ...JE 917. I can also read a part of the rego of the same car in the DVD

the car does seem different to the one that Raj posted the engine pic from - That one had martini stripes and seemed to be white. That one is on the DVD as well - but a rallye car not a practice car.

this one has chrome window surrounds on the inside whereas the race car has black window surrounds

This one seems to be yellow - although it is hard to tell with all that red dirt

I tried to capture a couple of "inside " shots as well as some other shots of the car but I couldn't get any as my software would not capture and save the pictures from this dvd

here are the photos Nikolay referred to in the previous post

first the rallye car interior
second the practice car interior - see steering wheel and chrome window surrounds

finally the same engine shot as Raj posted and a shot of one of the cars in the rally

Quote:

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Originally Posted by varunan123

By the way which 73 2.8RSR was involved on the list below and what does 57 mean under Produkt Stck.

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Produkt Stck probably means quantity produced of that type. This certainly appears to follow from all but the first line where only one VIN is listed, but quantity 2 are listed.

Raj

I am interstate for a few days so dont have all my records.

however let me go through how I see this. By the way this is all educated guesswork on my part - I dont place my views any higher than any of the others oin this thread (and i know that some on this thread have had good information from factory sources - however even that may be subject to misinterpretation or lack of full knowledge given how long ago this all occurred)

on the description 1972 RS 2.8- I think that that may be a contemporary reference. These days we call those cars RSR's but I am not sure that that was the way they were described at the time. the badging was "carrera RS" and maybe there was an effort to make sure they were evolutions of the RS - not something that could be called a different car for homologation purposes

therefore they may be no difference in substance between "RS 2.8" in that book or the letter and "RSR" as told to john recently

I find the reference "Produkt Stck - 2" very interesting. I am certain it means two such cars produced - ie R1 and R2 being RS19 and RS20. I know it does not give another number but it seems to confirm TO ME AT LEAST that 2 1972cars were converted for Corsica. I think it can be entirely consistent with the existence of R1 and R2 as I postulated above a couple of pages ago.
Interesting as well is that no engine numbers are listed - it does not mean they did not have engines - just the numbers were not known at the time of compiling the list or they had multiple engines.

I think that the possibility that the internals were transferred to another car with a 1973 Vin is intreiging - that could / may be after the time on the panzer track.

I dont know why other important cars were not on the list - but again I dont know the full context of the list - Nikolay is there a previous page???

as to "open to the possibility that the two monte cars which had central cooler by sept 72-went to corsica in sept for practice"
YES there are pictures that have been posted here of the 2 cars - but more or less looking like street RS's - at the recce about that time. the S AK numberplates aand the distinctive colours of the Monte cars are evident.

HOWEVER i cant see that they would have been recreated as the 2 TdC cars. I firmly believe that there are 4 separate cars involved. At least 3 have a documented history after the corsica event - R2 which is in the Museum (and we have gone thru the history here) The Monte car currently in Europe which appears to be the car sold to Meznarie and used in the 1972 criterium and the other Monte car which went to Africa as a recce / test car in March 1973 and was left there after being damaged.

the number 5 on the cars to my knowledge is to signify the cars were running in Group 5 or prototype class - the same number is also on the other proto cars such as the stratos. If anyone knows anything different I would be happy to be corrected

I agree that the monte cars used the red flag to highlight where the valve stems were - however the competition dept probably had a large number of such wheeels made up so it would not be unusual for these cars to have them

I still think it is unclear WHICH 1972 cars could have formed the donor shells for the TdC cars and exceedingly strange bount the chassis number published

hopefully more information will turn up

Quote:

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Originally Posted by varunan123

Not to dredge up an old subject.But,going back to this wagenpass-if you look at the engine spec-seems to match what was in the car at the targa with photographic evidence of a RS engine and the correct car-this wagenpass was stamped in march and car still had correct engine in may.I am still skeptical of the whole senario-that this is the wagenpass for car number 9 at the targa-just goes against all common sense.That leaves one with the dilemma as john said-where is the evidence?
Raj

This fits the wagenpass and photo id of what we id'ed as 0002 at the targa-but according to wagenpass has to be 0020.This also supports the info that the strahle car at osterreichring had a 2.7-it is also listed as such on Karl Ludvigsen's book excellence is expected.Also,supports the targa account of the mongrel having a 210hp 2.7litre engine.

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Raj:

You have re-opened one of the few mysteries left over from all our work to get to the real history of the early prototype RSRs developed by the factory.

This factory produced Wagonpass (looks authentic) and the email answer to Milou (p. 11, post 154) from the factory identifying 0020 as the RSR that finished 3rd at the 73 TF, was at the LeMans test, and finished 14th at the 24 hr LeMans, and now resides in the Museum ARE INCONSISTENT. The Wagenpass RSR (pictured) is not the car that finished 3rd at the TF (#9), so which is correct? Is the museum car #107 from the TF (and the #3 press car) making it 0020, or did they misrepresent the Wagonpass VIN? Both documents cannot be correct.

Gib

raj

the heading on the table is
"911 Carrera 2.7 to 911 Carrera 4 lightweight"

I am not sure if there was another page before it

i have attached a blown up extract which is a bit easier to read

so i don't think the reference was specifically to "light-weight carrera 2.7"

see line 3 is the 1973 M491 cars - all 57 (?) of them from chassis #307 and above- I thought the records showed 55 - what are the
other 2? is it a typo?

also if you compare line one with line 3 the "carrera RS 2.8 corsica" cars are identical to the "2.8 RSR's" in all but weight and name

I am certain that these are R1 and R2 and that they are excluded from the other 57 (55?) M491 cars produced but in all other aspects are the same lineage

This does not shed any light on the two known RSR type cars RS001 and RS002 UNLESS they are the two mystery cars that take the number of "RSR's" from 55 to 57.
Certainly in the cars shown in the RS book (and i counted them again this morning) there are only 55 cars from #307 onwards

Found this photo while searching for '71 TF photos.

http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...nnep.jpg1..jpg

It seems that Gunnar is back on line with their resto up-dates.

http://www.gunnarracing.com/

Raj,

Maybe you can contact Kevin and see what the RSR they're do'n is all about...
gunnar@gunnarracing.com

Cheers

Raj:

I respectfully disagree with your statement that the Wagenpass is the only factual evidence we have. We have very good photographic evidence that there were 2-72 chassis at the 73 TF, both silver, and their finishing order with drivers identified. These are very valuable records that substantiate both cars appearances. If you conclude that 107 was 0020, then what renumbered VIN was #9? Factory records are inconsistant on the identity of both cars if the factory filled out the Wagenpass document, because it conflicts with their documentation that the museum car is #9 not #107. It is hard to prove a negative (that the museum car is not 107), but there would have been no apparent motive or gain in switching their identities when they did the final restoration in the summer-fall of 73 (I think that was when Paul Frere drove it.)

If you believe #107 to be 0020 (museum car) based on the Wagenpass, then what happened to #9? I think there are more comments from those involved in the day, plus Dr. K's book, plus Singer, plus photos that support #107 as 0002...and they trump the Wagenpass document. Maybe Singer or Barth can comment on the process to generate a Wagenpass document, and whether there was ever any need to substitute one car for another on the document for making a race or having a backup/training car available.