I think the factory in those days was so informal that the dates will never be known. My kardex. :)
Attachment 555008
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I think the factory in those days was so informal that the dates will never be known. My kardex. :)
Attachment 555008
This is yet another 902/1 gearbox from October 1965 that is mis-identified on the Kardex as a 901/0. The factory was not informal or disorganized. Things were very different in the early 1950s. The specific end of model years is only defined in the early days by the change in models (356, 356A T1, 356A T2, 356B T5, 356B T6 and 356C -- 1950-1955 by specific changes). In early 911s/912s 1966 by gearbox type and later ones by either trim changes or chassis number variations. Regardless, the cars built around the edges of the model year changes also often have final assembly parts installed based on the date of completion. Cars were not built in chassis number order -- ever. The numbers on the Porsche chassis number list give numbers for most calendar year end changes that are relative, not actually correct, since lower number cars were produced later and (probably) higher number cars were built earlier.
Exactly. When you are able to look at the Production Book pages for the 911 you fully understand the jumbled order in which the cars were actually created. Comparing the dates in the book with the Kardex listed dates reveals that the Kardex dates are later; often weeks later. Comparing Kardex dates with sales invoices reveals the "Ausgel. am" to be the Invoice date. The "Abnahme-Besch." is then the date the first owner accepted delivery, and the warranty period began. The CoA, or equivalent, uses the dates on the Kardex but calls them birth dates or some such nonsense, or says the production completion date is not known. In actual fact, the dates are in the Production Book, but this book is off limits to the people making up the CoA; in fact a lot of information is off limits to the CoA department. It has taken me 45 years of research to get comfortable with the data surrounding these cars, and I am still learning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett Johnson
Attachment 565047Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett Johnson
While the transmission change was certainly a part of the transition to 1966 model year, I really wonder if it is fully definitive. My reasoning is that Reutter was building the bodies, and so the 1966 features of the new knee pad (for LHD models initially), the corresponding dash changes with the new ignition bezel, and the 1966 series paint codes were really controlled by Reutter. The trimmed bodies were delivered to Porsche for the suspension and drive train to be installed. Now, would Porsche fully coordinate the 1966 MY bodies with the new transmissions? I think an intensive study of the cars from 301975 through 302075 and charting the changes in each would be prudent. I know that at least as early as 301717 there were 66xx paint codes and I have 8 in my data with 66xx codes before 301981. I also have 302027, 28, 29 & 30 as having 66xx codes but not the 902/1 transmission; there may be several more, but I stopped looking there. This indicates to me that the transition was a change in progress over a period of time with a lot of hybrid 65/66 features in the cars.
The service bulletin above certainly nails down the transition in the transmission.
This is what I wrote:
So, during the 1965 calendar year, the 911 was very much a work in progress. The 1966 model year should have occurred around the first of August – and so it did – almost.
In the summer of 2020 in the midst of the ongoing COVID crisis, I told all of you about The Strange Case of the 902/1 Gearbox in this very publication. It actually contained in two factory provided exhibits which included the answer to beginning of the 1966 model year, though that was not what I was concerned with at the time.
Porsche Service Bulletin No. H 4/65 abroad states that the 902/1 5-speed gearbox would replace the 901/0 on July 26, 1965. The 902/1 had been the standard gearbox in the 912 from its introduction in April of that year. From that point in July it would be used in both 911s and 912s from a shared set of serial numbers until the beginning of the 1967 model year. This was the only time that 911s and 912s did not have a distinct, separate serial number range – ever!
Unfortunately, it misidentifies the transmissions used in early 912s, 220 001 - 221 721 as 901/0 5-speeds, when they were actually the first 902/1 5-speeds. It does provide a list of what are presumably the first 18 911s in numerical order receiving the 902/1 gearbox commencing with 301 981, 301 995, 302 012, etc.
When reviewing pages 62 and 63 of the factory Technical Specifications book (aka Spec Book) that covers 1965-1968, one is confronted with a confusing listing with tiny type. The shared transmissions used for both 911 and 912 models 221 722 – 232 400 are mysteriously left out of this chart. It does relate that the 901/0 was for 65-model 911s, while the 902/1 was for 65-model 912 and 1966 and 1967 911 and 912 models. For 1967 the serial numbers are from a new series and are different between the two models. The 1967 911S came fitted with a new 901/02 5-speed.
So, despite being subtly flawed, these two documents in combination define a 1966 911 as being one fitted with a gearbox with numbers 221-722 – 232 400. Based on the numerical conundrum described at the beginning, they could have been invoiced any time from later to much later than July 26, 1965. The last 1965 902/1 transmission, 221 721, was actually installed in a 912 invoiced on August 8, 1965, while the first 1966 installed, 221 722, was invoiced September 15, 1965.
To further aggravate this situation most Kardexes for 911s issued from July 26, 1965 through December 1965 misidentify 902/1 as 901/0, while listing the unique 902/1 transmission number. No wonder why everyone is confused.
If you look at the 356 Porsche chassis number list, you will notice that calendar years and some model years often end in round numbers. The reason for this is since they were not invoiced in anything resembling numerical order, it is likely that they were simply assigned a number that could have been invoiced around that time. In one case it was just wrong, but that was easy to fix.
Since Porsche did not ever define the 1966 model year by chassis number, only by gearbox number I thought somebody should do it. Based on the first cars that had them, I picked 302 001 for 911s and 451 001 and 350 701 for 912s and published it. Decades from now only this magazine article will explain it. You’ll be able to tell your grandchildren, you saw it here.
Brett.
Where does Porsche specifically link the new transmission to a 1966 MY Porsche 911? Thanks.
-Allen-
Sorry, did not post the second "exhibit" mentioned in text. The entire article which includes photos and text describing what changes occurred (and when they occurred) in 1965 is in the Fall 2021 issue (V31, #2) of Esses. The only other significant change that occurred at roughly this time was the five instrument option for 912s, the first 5 of these going to Australia in RHD form.
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...attach/jpg.gif
Also, Reutter officially ceased operations May 1964 (when final payment from Porsche was received), well before 901 production began. The knee guard change is an August change and wide bezel ignition switch August/September from my research. Owners who have unmodified cars that want to contribute information could make these more specific. I know the VINs (consecutive!) and invoice dates of the first 912s with five instruments, which are all around August 1, 1965. They, and all other RHD cars, were built by Porsche.
I owned '65 911 301396 in the 1970's and would love to find it. Does anyone know if it still exists?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett Johnson
Tobey Ross
Co-Chairman
Radnor Hunt Concours d'Elegance
I recently discovered this thread and have been reading through it from the beginning with interest. My car, finally under restoration after 30 years of storage, is right at the transition from model year 1965 to 1966. It is listed on the COA as a 1966 model year. Although many things were changed through the years by prior owners as a result of accidents or a desire to modernize the car (i.e. blacked out window frames, rear deck grill and other trim, replacement of the wood dash and steering wheel, addition of Fuchs rims, etc), the “guts” are ’65:
Serial 301990
Engine 902143
Production completion date: Aug 6, 1965
Delivery date: Sept 7, 1965
Paint code 6206 (this was a special order… it is a 356 code from ’62 or ’63 I think)
4 screw horn grills
Non adjustable shock towers
Concave door lock cylinders
Fender mounted washer reservoir
Lobro half shafts – the transmission is not original so perhaps the axles were changed out when the transmission was.
According to the Kardex, the car left the factory with transmission #102051- 901/0. The one in the car now is stamped 902/1 #230518. Based on the discussion in posts 532-537 in this thread, my car appears to contradict the Porsche service bulletin stating the 901/0 units would be replaced by the 902/1 after the production date of July 26, 1965. My car, produced 11 days after this date, was fitted with a 901/0. But as I have seen stated before, these cars did not come off the assembly line in any kind of numerical sequence, so in theory the 901/0 transmission could have been installed but the car wasn’t completed until a couple of weeks later.
Since my current transmission is in that missing sequence from 221 722 – 232 400, I don’t really know when it was produced, but presumably sometime later in 1966.
So unless someone can educate me to the contrary, my take-home from this is that despite the COA calling my car a 1966 MY, it is actually a 1965.
Mark