Ultimate ST thread

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Originally Posted by MPST

Nice list of first owner and list of car, but how how many exist two or three times?
If you can't trust the source of the data you are lost.

I know from first hand, that even Porsche today is quite unhappy about the situation and the originality of the cars including certificates.

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Let's get off topic again! But I would like to investigate what you say....If Porsche showed all its construction sheets of these special cars, they would end the fakes sooner...Although, they would be created from 0 fakes of vehicles that have been destroyed... these, should be able to be verified by all the people of the porsche who know about the subject (they should know for sure if it is false or not...) If they keep a hidden part... They continually favor scammers and those who they make money with it... from my point of view a little more light on the documents of these cars would end up with auctions that "do not lead to anything"... duplicate cars etc... Although from my thoughts. Is there currently a vehicle found with a duplicate VIn? Currently? I say this because it seems too invasive a method to be used today....
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Regarding the list, the first owners are not named... correct? in Polak's case, the first owner was not known. Or if?
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by the way... "stupid" question at this point but why are they 21? Who said it or where is it written?
+I want to say... it was the minimum but there weren't more?

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Originally Posted by _gonbau

Thank you for being so precise and brief in the list. I think...this clean listing does the post good!
these st have VIN sorted.....but does that mean the production dates as well? Or for example the 495 left the factory after others despite being "the first on the list"?
what is the last clue of the gargallo?
*from that list... the 0550 would be the "first" S/T made in 72?
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Looking at the 955 I found these photos. The first is the "typical" white S/T but seen from another profile. I do not remember seeing the photo here, my memory fails me I guess since I think it is an interesting photo and easy to find. The other image of the pilot that you mention... I don't know what car it will be but maybe and because of the relationship I'm posting it. The photos belong to the following Flickr
Attachment 581158
Attachment 581159

detail in the photo of the ST .... Has the hole been made but is not "inserted the battery cut"? If this is so...at what time was this system installed?
Attachment 581160Attachment 581161


https://www.flickr.com/photos/182600...6/52224650401/

very good photos of other s/ts... and the one shown above with the gas cap, etc...

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So that’s my Flickr profile with a few of the hundreds of photos I have of 2.5 S-R, including the 4 white ‘factory tour’ photos. The guy with the winner’s garland standing next to a red 911 S is Guenther Chrzanowski, the customer who ordered 0955 according to a letter I received from Jurgen Barth. He raced this car in 1974 and finished 1st in class at Hockenheim a non-championship round in November 1974: https://www.racingsportscars.com/dri...anowski-D.html

I know Vasek Polak was not the first owner of 0495, I could have stated ‘unknown’ but as I used Hugh’s earlier posts and his 000 magazine article as the original basis for my own research, I think until the first owner of 0495 is revealed, it is better to continue with Polak for now.

21 is mentioned by many knowledgeable people, including Russell Edmonds whose posts as monaco1 I have sent to you before, so I think it is probably time to accept this as the number of 2.5 S-Rs produced, just like the 55 RSRs, otherwise we will never be able to move on. IMO.

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Originally Posted by matteo68

21 is mentioned by many knowledgeable people, including Russell Edmonds whose posts as monaco1 I have sent to you before, so I think it is probably time to accept this as the number of 2.5 S-Rs produced, just like the 55 RSRs, otherwise we will never be able to on. IMO.

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I agree in the Polak case. I have always heard it by that name and not by any other but I just wanted to be sure. Regarding your flickr, I hope you don't mind that I took those photos (let me know if you want and I'll remove them) I found it interesting to put them here, as I said I don't remember seeing it and the rearview mirror caught my attention...I don't know why, the photo taken from above is "extremely beautiful" according to my point of view! Regarding the collection of images you have there! Thank you very much from Tenerife! Good photos to see! Regarding the total. I think that the words should be porsche and not the "specialists" who in many cases know more than the Porsche but.... with publishing the sheets etc. I think all this would be clarified and much of the porsche history as "M" lost or not understood, lost cars or special cars that have never been named...Special orders for skins and many other things that Porsche fans would be pleased to see. Hiding these documents, from my point of view, I don't know if they are good or bad. I guess there's a lot of business in this...I guess...

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Originally Posted by matteo68

0495 Polak
0550 Kinnunen
0538 Keyser
0818 Sindel
0870 Strahle
0872 Schiller
0908 Schickentanz
0909 Zbinden
0910 Nordrhein
0921 Helmick
0934 Krizalla
0955 Loos (my research reveals it was actually Chrzanowski)
0983 Hahn
0987 Bartels
1019 Gargallo
1144 SonAuto
1155 Feustel
1195 Fischhaber
1328 Moritz
1417 Grieder
1687 Stone

21

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what happens with 0769?

Attachment 581163

there are 21...there are 24... I think that if we put the images together, many more than 21,22,23,24,25.... would come out.

"However, Jurgen Barth, who worked in that department at the time, and has consulted their files, can find no mention of it, nor can he remember it there. The present owner, however, has a photo of it outside Werk One in 1973 and Steve Carr, then of Autofarm in the UK, remembers collecting it from Werk One, with Jurgen Barth’s help, in February 1974 . . ."
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...ate-1972-911ST

even if it became "another vehicle"... it was outfitted and delivered as a sports car from what I understand it should be on the list.

Attachment 581164

https://porschepicturespast.com/foru...ecific-events/

Matt
with regard to 0495 it was originally registered on Stuttgart plates as S-AJ 9233 and was configured as a rally car.
I am not sure who the owner was - Alexandros Maniatopoulos who raced as "Leonardas" and used the car in a number of rallies including the 1972 Acropolis or whether he leased it from the factory. Anything to do with Greece at that time is very difficult to determine given the regime there at the time. It is quite possible he owned it and registered it in Stuttgart to get around the Greek laws at the time as other wealthy Greek families are known to have done but mainly using Switzerland.
However it was not, as written by Mr B in 1990, "delivered to be used by the factory as a racing version in 1972" OR as as Rolf Sprenger wrote in 1990 quoting Mr B that it "was not a rallye car but a racing car" however he may have been correct that it was delivered in April 1972 directly to a "racing customer" except it was in rallye spec

here are some pictures of it while being used by "Leonardas" with the black and white ones at the 1972 Acropolis Rally

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MPST

Nice list of first owner and list of car, but how how many exist two or three times?
If you can't trust the source of the data you are lost.

I know from first hand, that even Porsche today is quite unhappy about the situation and the originality of the cars including certificates.

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You will be well aware that there are plenty of 2.7RS fakes, tributes and recreations out there, and indeed 2.8 RSRs too, all of which are fine (some more than others imo), so long as they do not try and pass themselves off as a genuine car with restamped chassis plates etc, which is where Porsche gets understandably unhappy. The same applies to STs and SRs, which is why Porsche have been so unhelpful towards me and my facsimile of 0955 (with a ‘72T VIN number for all to see): the ongoing fraud court case is probably the main issue at the moment I would think.

But the factory had moved onto the development of the 2.7 RS and 2.8 RSR by mid ‘72 so there was no way they were going to make any more S-Rs for customers (or themselves) once this programme was underway.

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Originally Posted by HughH

Matt
with regard to 0495 it was originally registered on Stuttgart plates as S-AJ 9233 and was configured as a rally car.
I am not sure who the owner was - Alexandros Maniatopoulos who raced as "Leonardas" and used the car in a number of rallies including the 1972 Acropolis or whether he leased it from the factory. Anything to do with Greece at that time is very difficult to determine given the regime there at the time. It is quite possible he owned it and registered it in Stuttgart to get around the Greek laws at the time as other wealthy Greek families are known to have done but mainly using Switzerland.
However it was not, as written by Mr B in 1990, "delivered to be used by the factory as a racing version in 1972" OR as as Rolf Sprenger wrote in 1990 quoting Mr B that it "was not a rallye car but a racing car" however he may have been correct that it was delivered in April 1972 directly to a "racing customer" except it was in rallye spec

here are some pictures of it while being used by "Leonardas" with the black and white ones at the 1972 Acropolis Rally

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Thanks Hugh, I was hoping you would chime in and help me out on this at some point - this discussion seems to go round and round in circles for a while and then someone (invariably you!) pops up with some new and significant information!

I am hoping to go and see Matt Blast and 0495 later this year as I think seeing as many of the 21 up close and personal as possible is the only way to really understand how they were built (incorrect later restorations and conversion apart!).

Matt

769 at its creation/inception was neither a restore nor a conversion. It should be considered S/T or so I think.

Baudett
On 0769 that was , along with a couple of other cars also a 1972 M491 ST, BUT these were factory owned cars and the 21 Matt is referring to are customer cars
the factory cars were
0041 (E27) a factory rally car used as car #4 at the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally
0047 ((E29) a factory rally car used as car #15 at the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally

Both of these cars also served as development hacks, and for some homologation purposes, for the 2.8 RSR as well as participating in a number of other track events including 0041 at the 72 Nurburgring 1000, as recce and practice cars for the 1972 TdC rally where the first RSR's were used and 0047 was used in the 1972 Swedish KAK rally, the 1972 Acropolis, the 1972 Olympia rally (on loan from the factory) and as a recce car for the 1973 African Safari rally

0769 (E40) A rally spec car used by Zasada (but with a standard 2.4 engine at that stage) and then after a crash at the Rally Poland rebuilt as RS 911360001 and used for some factory test work but later still used in that configuration by Zasada for the rest of the 1972 rally season and the start of the 73 season before being sold to the UK
0841 (E42) a track spec M491 used to develop the 2.8RSR then converted to RS 9113600002 (LEO ZA 60) and used as the "Martini press announcement" car a RS / RSR development car, a rallye recce car, 1973 Targa Florio RSR #107 then more wind tunnel tests before supposedly being sold to Dunlop in the UK as a tire test car

There might have been one or two others (including 0022 - E24) used internally as well, including for rally recce cars, but I cant find documentation to prove that.