Ultimate ST thread

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Originally Posted by HughH

Baudett
On 0769 that was , along with a couple of other cars also a 1972 M491 ST, BUT these were factory owned cars and the 21 Matt is referring to are customer cars
the factory cars were
0041 (E27) a factory rally car used as car #4 at the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally
0047 ((E29) a factory rally car used as car #15 at the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally

Both of these cars also served as development hacks, and for some homologation purposes, for the 2.8 RSR as well as participating in a number of other track events including 0041 at the 72 Nurburgring 1000, as recce and practice cars for the 1972 TdC rally where the first RSR's were used and 0047 was used in the 1972 Swedish KAK rally, the 1972 Acropolis, the 1972 Olympia rally (on loan from the factory) and as a recce car for the 1973 African Safari rally

0769 (E40) A rally spec car used by Zasada (but with a standard 2.4 engine at that stage) and then after a crash at the Rally Poland rebuilt as RS 911360001 and used for some factory test work but later still used in that configuration by Zasada for the rest of the 1972 rally season and the start of the 73 season before being sold to the UK
0841 (E42) a track spec M491 used to develop the 2.8RSR then converted to RS 9113600002 (LEO ZA 60) and used as the "Martini press announcement" car a RS / RSR development car, a rallye recce car, 1973 Targa Florio RSR #107 then more wind tunnel tests before supposedly being sold to Dunlop in the UK as a tire test car

There might have been one or two others (including 0022 - E24) used internally as well, including for rally recce cars, but I cant find documentation to prove that.

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thank you very much for the details as always, and excuse the ignorance... Like Matteo, I think that your publications always provide rigor and content!!
Regarding the vehicles... I had momentarily forgotten the factory pilots and most importantly... The "manufacturer" for "manufacturer".
I understand the need to differentiate them into groups, but once each identification is known. Shouldn't they be integrated into the "S/T" group? After all, 769 went to a pilot. Whether it was an official factory pilot or not, how is it different from the ST?

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Originally Posted by _gonbau

what happens with 0769?

Attachment 581163

there are 21...there are 24... I think that if we put the images together, many more than 21,22,23,24,25.... would come out.

"However, Jurgen Barth, who worked in that department at the time, and has consulted their files, can find no mention of it, nor can he remember it there. The present owner, however, has a photo of it outside Werk One in 1973 and Steve Carr, then of Autofarm in the UK, remembers collecting it from Werk One, with Jurgen Barth’s help, in February 1974 . . ."
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...ate-1972-911ST

even if it became "another vehicle"... it was outfitted and delivered as a sports car from what I understand it should be on the list.

Attachment 581164

https://porschepicturespast.com/foru...ecific-events/

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According to Hugh, 0769 (Zasada) was initially a factory-built M471 2.4S (engine number 6321213) rally car (E40) which later became RS prototype #0001. So not one of the 21 M491s, but not a recreation or customer-conversion either (unlike the Toad Hall 2.4S camera car 1139 which was converted by Max Moritz).

There were 21 factory-built 911 S M491 option (racing version) ordered by customers, regardless of all the photos of different liveries, doubters and nay-sayers. This is why Russell left the forum in total exasperation, never to return…

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Originally Posted by HughH

Baudett
On 0769 that was , along with a couple of other cars also a 1972 M491 ST, BUT these were factory owned cars and the 21 Matt is referring to are customer cars
the factory cars were
0041 (E27) a factory rally car used as car #4 at the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally
0047 ((E29) a factory rally car used as car #15 at the 1972 Monte Carlo Rally

Both of these cars also served as development hacks, and for some homologation purposes, for the 2.8 RSR as well as participating in a number of other track events including 0041 at the 72 Nurburgring 1000, as recce and practice cars for the 1972 TdC rally where the first RSR's were used and 0047 was used in the 1972 Swedish KAK rally, the 1972 Acropolis, the 1972 Olympia rally (on loan from the factory) and as a recce car for the 1973 African Safari rally

0769 (E40) A rally spec car used by Zasada (but with a standard 2.4 engine at that stage) and then after a crash at the Rally Poland rebuilt as RS 911360001 and used for some factory test work but later still used in that configuration by Zasada for the rest of the 1972 rally season and the start of the 73 season before being sold to the UK
0841 (E42) a track spec M491 used to develop the 2.8RSR then converted to RS 9113600002 (LEO ZA 60) and used as the "Martini press announcement" car a RS / RSR development car, a rallye recce car, 1973 Targa Florio RSR #107 then more wind tunnel tests before supposedly being sold to Dunlop in the UK as a tire test car

There might have been one or two others (including 0022 - E24) used internally as well, including for rally recce cars, but I cant find documentation to prove that.

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Thanks again Hugh. Your explanations are always vastly superior to mine!

Baudett
yes they were all ST’s but I think it is correct to put them into two groups. The 21 cars were essentially a production run of almost identical cars for customers. The first such run since the 911R and the precursor to the RS and RSR production runs in the next year. The other factory cars were all M491 cars at some stage in their life but most if not all did not start that way. Also they were different in many ways to the customer cars due to their roles as development cars and factory competition cars

100% agree. I still believe in the 21 chassis numbers and I also still believe that at least 10 cars are existing twice....:) With knowledge of Porsche Factory.

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Originally Posted by MPST

100% agree. I still believe in the 21 chassis numbers and I also still believe that at least 10 cars are existing twice....:) With knowledge of Porsche Factory.

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Could you provide some evidence and examples please?

To both MPST and matteo68, from my understanding you both own an 911 ST/SR -72. Have you revealed in such case which car / chassis number you have?

To anybody with knowledge, how many extra bodyshells did Porsche build for the 911 ST/SR M491 1972 model?

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Originally Posted by matteo68

Could you provide some evidence and examples please?

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If it was that easy courts would not have to be currently occupied with that work.

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Originally Posted by uai

If it was that easy courts would not have to be currently occupied with that work.

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umm...is it that complicated? I can understand that it is "easy" to replicate factory work from years ago....but for example, it would not be so easy to replicate chassis knocks. That they have been repaired ok. But some trace will remain. I guess it's stupid that I or any of us makes assumptions about how to investigate these cases since as you say... There are many people behind investigating but it would seem useful that each one pour their ideas on how to identify these vehicles... From my point of view and although my car was not an S/T or anything special, I have left the paint as "a great clue". On the other hand, I want to think that the lead tin that my vehicle contains would have an identifiable composition... Things that seem unrealistic but that I suppose and hope that in cases where so much money is played, it is being used (excuse my ignorance with these issues)

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Originally Posted by Nimba

To both MPST and matteo68, from my understanding you both own an 911 ST/SR -72. Have you revealed in such case which car / chassis number you have?

To anybody with knowledge, how many extra bodyshells did Porsche build for the 911 ST/SR M491 1972 model?

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No, I don’t own one of the 21 1972 M491 911S’s (or S-R) - see my signature below.

S-R shells were taken from the production line as regular S shells with series body parts fitted and were converted to M491 racing version in Werk1. There were no M491-specific shells built at any time as far as I am aware (unlike the earlier 30-odd thinner steel shells built in ‘70 & ‘71 for 2.3 ST).