No german tax is either the price of the item, or the engine capacity not the powerQuote:
Originally Posted by _gonbau
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No german tax is either the price of the item, or the engine capacity not the powerQuote:
Originally Posted by _gonbau
Baudett
This car was ordered as, and has a vin number of, a 1972 911S. It was actually ordered as a M471 spec car as i understand it by Max Moritz and delivered to Hahn.
When it was for sale some time ago the following description was used
"This car – with VIN-Nr 911 230 1081 (we will refer to it as #1081) – was delivered by the factory as a Gulf Orange Porsche 911S with “T” race-specification to Max Moritz on 27 March 1973 for delivery to fur trader and racer Claus Utz from Reutlingen.
The “T” race spec was comprised of light-weight body, thin glass, alu trunk lid, sport seats, 5 speed gearbox, front spoiler and anti-roll bars to which Claus Utz then added in his purchase order an 80 liter fuel tank, special speedometer (up to 300km), special rev counter (up to 10,000 rpm) and a limited slip differential. The engine number was 6321607 and gearbox nr was 326765. Claus Utz paid for the car with some cash and his old 911S plus a Volkswagen"
So, according to this explanation, which I do not have interdependent proof of, the "T" when hand written on the build sheet for such cars seems to refer to the lightweight M471 package rather than anything related to a "911T"
On the last question you have i cant think of any reason why the factory would ever outsource modifications to a dealer and then take the car back into their stock or fleet - after all their whole job is to produce these cars (and upgrade them) If they need another car they can just take it off the line and modify it in house
Just to be sure, we are talking about this "T" on the order sheet, not the build sheet. If I understand correctly, you're asking if the "T" in that location (dealer's order sheet) indicates M471? Where can I find information about this? On the other hand, when you mention the "T" on the build sheets of some S/T models I've seen... Are you referring to them when talking about the "T"? Are you suggesting that the "T" on the build sheet possibly indicates "M471"? Honestly, I don't quite understand the phrase "with 'T' race-specification"... As always, thank you for the information you provide.
"On the last question you have i cant think of any reason why the factory would ever outsource modifications to a dealer and then take the car back into their stock or fleet - after all their whole job is to produce these cars (and upgrade them) If they need another car they can just take it off the line and modify it in house"
Never return any vehicle to the factory due to production surpluses?
I am mainly talking about the build sheet because the order sheets never used T E S or even RS. They all used an order code number. In this case 911 534 which you can almost see in the bottom LHS of the sheet you posted a picture of
that translates to
911 (car type) for 911
5 (body) for an S coupe
3 (engine) for a S engine
4 (gearbox) for a 5 speed manual
I dont know what that writing that may be a T is about on that form as you cant see the rest of it
Attachment 599157Quote:
Originally Posted by HughH
umm this is an order document if i'm not confused. It would never be filled in with the S, T, etc...? I thought so. It would be interesting to see the complete document of 1081
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Attachment 599158
xxxxhurng?
hrung?
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When you talk about the T, the Repsol vehicle has the M491 option but it also has the T written on its construction sheet. Did that mean that it has the two options? When registering the T, is it not necessary to write M471 on the construction sheet?
and according to the explanation offered above, and doing a bit of reverse engineering. Should this vehicle with m471 from the factory have a T written by hand on its construction sheet?
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Attachment 599591
"false" composite image for the original information and an order form similar (same) to the one used for the 1081
Attachment 599465
1081 was sold from the MAx to the Pelske on March 28th according to the invoice stamp. If we look at the KFZ, the vehicle has had an owner since approximately "January." There is a letter that mentions Jurguen using this vehicle for factory purposes. When did it acquire the KFZ? On the other hand, did this vehicle, during the short period between January and March, obtain an internal "asset" number? And if so, considering that the factory initially used the vehicle, could it have had a different Kommit prefix than the one shown in the invoices (e.g., 115/002, etc.)? Could this be one of those internally used vehicles that was later sold to Pelske despite having a purchase order?
Was a vehicle manufactured from scratch for Pelske to fulfill the order, or was an internal factory vehicle used?
Was this vehicle already 115 when the factory ordered it for their use?
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Attachment 599467Attachment 599468
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...ry-Times/page3
because pelske put a 911T there. Because a letter is written later "giving him a relationship" from the factory. Was it a mistake on the part of the person who filled out the order? Or was it a method to place an order...? Any ideas.
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Is there a possibility that the factory had vehicles with an "internal number" but still without VIN Numbering?
Baudett
I dont think there is any record of this being a "company car"
From my reading of the documents you have posted as well as other ones I have :
It was produced (final production date) December 1971. The Barth document says produced before 31 December
on 1 March 1972 it shows delivery of Porsche to Hahn Porsche central warehouse
on 27 March 1972 it was delivered from Hahn to Max Moritz as a new vehicle
So it would have been sitting in the yard at the factory between January and March - as a lot of cars would have been.
Hahn (115) at Stuttgart was a "central handler" - one of the six in Germany where orders were placed through. Max Moritz at Reutlingen also had handler 115 against it but was obviously a sub handler for Hahn hence the car going via the Hahn central warehouse first
I dont have a copy of the KFZ so I dont know when it was dated. However as it was for German delivery it would require a KFZ I would suggest that it was filled out by the factory soon after production so it was then ready for sale. I dont know why that was done 3 months before delivery (if it was) but it may just have been the process to do those for German delivery cars when they were completed
Edit: while the letter says produced before December 31, I dont think that is correct (like a lot of other details on letters from Barth on numerous cars). I have records of "production dates" of S's from around that Vin and while i know that they are more likely to be invoice dates or warranty dates (when the car is sold) they are all in March and the likely December dates are in the 500 vin range not the 1000 vin range
If you have evidence of a KFZ dated in January for this car please post it.. That comment about internal delivery could simply mean that it was delivered to the customer race department (from the standard production line) instead of being finished on the standard production line to get it to full M471 spec and add whatever extra bits were necessary. All other ST's were produced that way and while this was not a factory ST as such it may have been finished off in that manner
when Barth mentions that the vehicle was for internal use in the attached letter, at that time, would I have to obtain an internal number for the type E identification? On the other hand, why if the vehicle was produced before January 1972 does it have such a high VIN number? engine? Before March, did that vehicle have another engine, for example? And in March it was changed back to the "original" or could this not be? In those three months that the car was in "warehouses", was the vehicle complete or was the engine fitted at the time of its sale to Pelske?
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to add the comparison of another vehicle delivered in March.
Attachment 599502
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...gearbox+number
I'm speculating here, but I would assume this is part of the word "Ausfuhrung" or "version" / "Type".Quote:
Originally Posted by _gonbau
@_gonbau as you are often very peculiar when it comes to numbers and dates:
I stumbled yesterday upon a stash of old Fahrzeugbriefe. And to answer a question you've asked before: you cannot guess age or date of first registration upon their Fahrzeugbrief number.
I have some examples where e.g. a car that has a later modelyear has an earlier Brief Number.