Ultimate ST thread

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Originally Posted by _gonbau

Attachment 600781Attachment 600782

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Can someone knowledgeable explain this document...?
is this a clear reference to S-T or am I getting it wrong again. Sports version, Ok, what does the T next to the S mean in this circular from 1970?

when the document mentions: "The basic equipment of the 911 S in sports version can be found in the general brochure. Subject to homologation by the F.I.A. In addition, the vehicle can be prepared for Wattbeverb as follows:"


The document says that there is a vehicle based on a 911S for tests in the factory that "also" can be prepared in the following way.... That's what the document says. What does this mean? Could there be a "911S-T" without that preparation that is mentioned in that documentation and could there also be a 911S-T with all those options listed in the document? Could there be a 911 Sports version that did not include engine upgrades? This is what I can understand from the doc, if I understand it correctly.

a
b
c
d
Were they options "for this type of vehicle" or was it mandatory equipment for that sports vehicle?

So, for delivery in Germany, the vehicle would need KFZ...1081 was delivered in Germany in March, and my vehicle in January, with "little" difference between their KFZ (242).
What do we pay attention to regarding the history of this vehicle? Do we trust Jurgen's letter that says the vehicle was completed before December 31st (which aligns with the proximity to my vehicle's KFZ, does anyone have more German KFZ for their 1972 Porsche?)OrDo we rely on the proximity of the VIN and engine number for March, assuming the March delivery date as indicated in the documentation signature? But then, why is there such proximity in KFZ between my vehicle and 1081 if approximately two months would have passed between the delivery of one vehicle and the other?Do we heed a "part of Barth's letter" where he talks about the T, but disregard when he says the vehicle was completed before December 31st?
What work did Max do on vehicle 1081?
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"Delivery from Porsche to Hahn Porsche central warehouse on March 1, 1972, delivery from Hahn to Max Moritz on March 27, 1973.The car was already manufactured at the time of ordering, was in stock at the central warehouse in Hahn, Stuttgart and, according to the invoice, was delivered to Max Moritz for DM 28,424.04, including 11% VAT."

If the vehicle was already in the warehouses in March, it should contain "lightweight parts," is the price that Hahn presented to Max for a vehicle with the mentioned characteristics normal? I understand that when the vehicle was in Hahn's warehouse, it had the "lightweight parts" and flares. Since the documentation was signed by the owner on the 29th, it would seem like a short amount of time for Max to have done work on the vehicle, considering that Hahn delivered it to Max from the "central" warehouse on the 27th. There wouldn't have been enough time for modifications at Max's.
If the vehicle had, for example, a 10,000 RPM tachometer, and according to the vehicle documentation, it was already in the warehouses when the order was received, does that mean it already had a "tuned engine" in the warehouse, correct? If so, would it be normal to find a "ST" prepared with lightweight parts waiting for an owner in a warehouse?
Why was this vehicle already manufactured when the order was received?

My friend Dana was a docent at Pebble beach last month and came home with some goodies for me… A Program and a Car Guide… ;)

Some know that Richie Ginther’s ’71 ‘All American’ Le Mans ST, ‘Sloopy Jr.’ was on display on the grass this year…

This is how it looked, and what was written in the Guide… :)

(If we have conflicting info... Please don't shoot the messenger ... :o)

Cheers

Great car!!!

Attachment 602724

Attachment 602725

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chuck Miller

My friend Dana was a docent at Pebble beach last month and came home with some goodies for me… A Program and a Car Guide… ;)

Some know that Richie Ginther’s ’71 ‘All American’ Le Mans ST, ‘Sloopy Jr.’ was on display on the grass this year…

This is how it looked, and what was written in the Guide… :)

(If we have conflicting info... Please don't shoot the messenger ... :o)

Cheers

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I went with the owner to dinner in that car a couple years ago. Beautiful ST.

And Mark Allen at Rare Drive did the restoration. His clients cars have won at Pebble many times. Used to run restoration at Paul Russell before he started his own shop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chuck Miller

Richie Ginther’s ’71 ‘All American’ Le Mans ST, ‘Sloopy Jr.’

(If we have conflicting info... Please don't shoot the messenger ... :o)

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;) Not shooting..

I understood that this car was a 'Customer Build' ST, where the relevant parts were ordered from the factory and built by the customer or their own race teams. Ginther, or more specifically his engine guru Harold Broughtman, built the engine in my car the following year ('72) and Ginther did the suspension. He had had his own 'trade secret' engine and suspension parts and setups that contributed to many a successful car in the various SCCA and PCA racing series' at the time.

We love the history of that car Niall........ ;)

https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...T-thread/page7
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...her-s-ST-redue

Cheers,
cm

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Originally Posted by Chuck Miller

We love the history of that car Niall........ ;)

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Thanks Chuck. Me too!
:D

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Originally Posted by davep

The order document does show options M220 M404 M414 M473 & larger tank. The M404, M414 and M473 are not consistent with the 911S since they are standard equipment, and so are not on the delivery document.

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I find it logical when I look at 404, but I think the theory shouldn't be like this. Based on what I observe in my vehicle, it has an 85L fuel tank (M424) according to the COA. According to this 1972 list where it's mentioned as "standard" in the S. So, if it were as you say, there is the question of why M424 is listed on my vehicle.
Attachment 602862
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In the post about my vehicle, it was mentioned that the time between delivery to Hahn and the customer was short, from the 19th to the 25th. Therefore, 4 days. (in my car)In 1081, I noticed that there is also a short period of time between Hahn's invoice to Max and the dates listed in the documentation for vehicle 1081 signed by the customer.Therefore, if Hahn sold the car on the 27th (according to the invoice), by the 29th (according to the documentation), it was already in the possession of the customer, with the vehicle documentation filled out and ready to drive, which would be 2 days between delivery to the dealership and the customer.
In comparison to how the 1081 order form was filled out.
Attachment 603593
Attachment 603271

M494?
In the second half of the 1960s, Porsche developed a racing version of the 911 with multiple weight reductions, resulting in the 911 R weighing only 800 kilograms. It was too early for mass production of such a reduced-weight 911. Still, the experience gained in its manufacturing was incorporated into a new project: starting in 1969, Porsche offered a racing version of the 911 S. To avoid the costly homologation of a new model, the car still officially carried its usual commercial name. It was called the 911 ST. Lightweight construction was a fundamental aspect of this vehicle. Porsche homologated a combination of the 911 S with a 2.2-liter engine and the reduced interior equipment of the 911 T for FIA Group 3. Plexiglass windows and body parts made of aluminum and fiberglass-reinforced plastic contributed to weight reduction. The car achieved its first successes in January 1970: at the Monte Carlo Rally, three Porsche 911 S 2.2 (ST) cars secured the 1st, 2nd, and 4th positions. During its production period, the 911 S (ST), in various stages of development, participated in events such as the Acropolis Rally (1969), Nürburgring (1970), East African Safari Rally (1971), and endurance races like Le Mans (1972) and Daytona (1973).
From October 1970, Porsche introduced the 911 S (ST) as a "standard sports version" homologated for road use with equipment code M471. With this code, the ST package could be ordered at any dealership as part of the standard 911 lineup. The circuit racing version received the code M491, and the rally version was designated M494.
Porsche continued to develop the project. FIA regulations allowed a 0.1-liter increase in engine displacement over the stock unit. Competition versions received engines with displacements of 2.3 liters (January 1971), 2.4 liters (March 1971), and ultimately, 2.5 liters (September 1971). Starting from January 1970, widened plastic fender flares accommodated wider tires with 7 and 9-inch rims. For the 1972 season, when the FIA prohibited replacing body parts with plastic equivalents, Porsche began producing steel fender extensions in September 1971.
During its production period, the appearance of the 911 S (ST) evolved. However, there were some distinctive features that characterized it: in the "standard sports version," bumper guards, auxiliary headlight supports, moldings, and protective strips on the doors, as well as rubber strips on the bumpers, were omitted. Rubber strips replaced the latches on the front and rear trunk lids. In the interior, chrome trims, the passenger sun visor, seat belt anchor points, anti-theft panels, rubber floor mats, ashtrays, heating, and the glove compartment were eliminated. In their place, Porsche installed a tachometer with a range of up to 10,000 rpm, a smaller steering wheel, "Scheel" or "Recaro" bucket seats with harnesses, reduced door moldings, thin felt carpeting, and a driver's footrest.
In addition to increasing engine displacement, Porsche applied other measures to the 911 S (ST) engines to increase their power, such as carburetors with specific intake tubes, conical camshafts, and a dual ignition system. For the competition versions, engineers developed an exhaust system optimized for back pressure and modified cylinder heads matching the cylinders. In the final stage of its evolution, the 2.5-liter boxer engine produced 270 horsepower. An additional radiator regulated the engine oil temperature. Koni or Bilstein shock absorbers and body reinforcements improved the driving behavior.
The production of the 911 S (ST) ceased after approximately three years, making way for a competition-focused model with equipment code M471. From that point on, the 911 Carrera RS 2.7, with its sophisticated aerodynamics, increased engine power, and other lightweight construction measures, took the top spot in Porsche's sports car lineup.
https://newsroom.porsche.com/es_ES/carpetas-de-prensa/911-st/Historia--911-S-(ST)-(1969-1972).html

According to this excerpt from the article, a 911 with M471 equipment code was an S/T... If that's the case, should the base price of an S/T, as per the article and the order sheet, be around $35,400?
https://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=602862&d=1694532852
19 de enero de 1970

Attachment 603684
According to the document provided in the previous post, fiberglass extensions could be used starting from January 1972, correct?
Attachment 603685

Regarding the text accompanying this other car:
"These were quietly announced in a March 1971 sales bulletin titled 'The Competition Options Group.' Porsche offered three different types of cars within that options group: the first was the M471, a race-inspired car for street use or custom GT conversion; the two others, both labeled M491, were track racing or rallye use cars."
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...9&d=1663586814

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Due to the prices in 1081, I believe they are quite low from my perspective. If the price of a new 911S for the year 72 was 32,400 marks, how is it possible, as mentioned in the documentation, that the vehicle was sold to Max for 28,500 marks and then to its owner (pelkse) for 33,000 marks? This could be understood if we interpret that the car, as the text suggests, was already manufactured at the time of the order... Due to the "discounted" price, I feel compelled to ask: Was it a "second-hand" car? Was it a used car? Was it used by the factory, as mentioned in Barth's letter, some time before delivery to "Max"?
If the vehicle included all of this: "To Max Moritz on March 27, 1972, for delivery to the furrier and trader Claus Utz of Reutlingen. It had a lightweight body, thin windows, aluminum trunk lid, sports seats, a 5-speed gearbox, front spoiler, and stabilizer bars. Claus Utz added to his order an 80-liter fuel tank and a special speedometer (up to 300 km), a special tachometer (up to 10,000 rpm), and a limited-slip differential. The engine number was 6321607, and the gearbox number was 326765. Claus Utz paid for the car with some cash, his old 911S, and a Volkswagen."
It is understood that, considering the time the vehicle spent at Max's, there wouldn't have been time for modifications. According to the documentation, it appears that the vehicle was already equipped with all these upgrades and was parked in storage at 115/2. Therefore, the price of the vehicle seems even more peculiar, especially considering Hahn's invoice to Max. 28,000 marks.

If we add 11% to Hahn's price (when it was sold to Max), it gives us an approximate amount of 31,000 marks, which is closer to the price indicated on the sales form for a 911 S (base) priced at 32,500 marks.
So, it is billed as a normal 911S, or it had a price drop for being "second-hand" if we understand that this vehicle was in the warehouses with all those options....
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Has there been any case where the factory renumbers the VIN? In the case of the st a rs it was done (maintaining the knee number). Is there any other case of renumbering by Porsche? Was there a finished car for the factory that later required numbering or renumbering or did they always leave the line with their vin number already assigned and "fixed" over time? It has little to do with the st but I would like to clarify

In the case of the vehicle converted to RS... was the kfz brief maintained? Or is the kfz brief interdependent on a fixed vin number? I know that the different improvements/equipment are noted in the kfz but to be clear, when the vehicle acquired the Vin RS does its kfz also change or is it the same?
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This document was issued by the Zentrum Porsche Neckar-Alb?
Attachment 604165
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Where did the prices on the 1081 order form come from? There is a clear difference between the sales price of m220 with that shown on the order form
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Attachment 606737Attachment 606738