Werks 911 Rally cars 1965 - 1972

A couple of weeks ago I asked here about the the source of the table below which shows in some detail a lot of information about works 911 rally cars, including chassis numbers up until 1972.

I had a copy of the German version and not only did i get a quick response as to where it was sourced (Busing and Barth) but an English language one was also posted.

The reason I was asking is that i have a lot of photos of werks rally cars over this period with details of drivers, events etc but only limited information tying those back to specific chassis identities. This table did the opposite: it had a lot of information on chassis numbers, engine numbers and car types but no cross link to what the car looked like, registration numbers, events it was in etc. I was interested in the table because if the source was reputable (and it is) i thought it might be possible to cross reference my photos and other information with the information in the table to create a more comprehensive database and possibly document a significant amount of the early history of these werks cars.

i was aware from looking at the table that it had some errors in it that i could spot, possibly typos in some cases but misinformation in at least one. Also i am under no illusion that this was an easy task, or indeed achievable without detailed access to the factory records - and maybe not even then.

However i have been always surprised at the depth of detailed knowledge on this board and thought that if I start it off, and then post what i have, the "power of the crowd" may create something that no-one could by themselves.

I have had some success in putting the two sets of data together, but I have also made some assumptions in the information that i have put together. I have tried to show what are assumptions and what i believe to be fact. However I am under no illusions that if a table from Busing and Barth, who would have extensive werks access has errors this may well have them too.

So I am putting the challenge out to see how far we can take this. i know there are some members of the board that do not like to share a lot of this data (presumably in the hope that it gives them an advantage in finding this type of car) but I would counter that the more information that is out there the more likely they will find out something new and the piece of information that they are holding may just unlock other significant facts helping them as well.

So here is the start of this.

The format for posting this is that I will try to stick to the werks cars listed in the table below in year order and match photos and registration and the first event they did. I have usually stopped at the first event, although i often have much more, as the objective is to tie a chassis (and maybe engine) number to an identity such as registration that can be used through time. Also the reason for using the first known event is that typically these werks cars did a couple of events, then were used as Recce or practice/backup cars for a couple more before being sold off to favored clients / private teams. Thus picking the first event gives the best opportunity to determine an identity.

Source THE PORSCHE BOOK BARTH & BUSING (note there are some errors in this table)
Attachment 207968


1965 – for 1965 Monte (and later?) 911 2.0 “Monte”
300055 S-UV 333 engine 900241 car #147 Linge / Falk 5th


Attachment 207969

1965 911 2.0 “Monte” for 1966 Monte and later
3 cars
303075 engine 903353 S WX 449
303076 engine 903355 S WX 450
303085 engine 903374 S WX 451

Also one press car 302736 engine #902695 no photo known

The Werks cars were all red (Rubinrot or Polorot?), and at the 1966 Monte were:

S WX 449 Monte, Glass/Wutherich. #131
Attachment 207970

S WX 450 Hans Walter and Werner Lier 4^th in GT #139

Attachment 207971

S WX 451 Schlesser and Buchet car #57

1967 911S 2.0 “Rallye”
3 werks cars with registration S-YS 847, 848 and 849

All had engine type 901/30
306655S engine 960641 S-YS 848
306656S engine 960688 either S YS 847 or S YS 849
306657S engine 960704 either S YS 847 or S YS 849
However the Barth book also shows 3 further cars in this category. These must be technically “customer” 2.0 Rallye cars although werks supported
307671S engine 961778
308291S engine 961989
308101S engine 961898 S ZP 740
One of these may be S-YZ 234 a rallye car for Elford in 1967 Swedish rally and as a service car for Zasada in Argentina who drove car 25-15-KR.
Another MAY be S-ZP 911 a rally car fore Elford at the 1967 Geneva rally and then for Hanrioud at the 67 Tour De Corse
Maybe one for Zasada? 25-15-KR?? P.Frere book: 1967 911S-2.0 'Rallye" 1991 ccm 80 mm bore 66 mm stroke 10 c/r 170 HP

Probably not one of the Swedish Scania Varbis cars. They were mainly1968 911L’s. Andersson’s B70046 had a chassis number 307 4xx so maybe one went there, and maybe Waldegaard’s B34880 was it as it was a “sister car” to B70046.

Maybe the Walter / Lier 1967 Monte Carlo car #45 was a werks “customer” car as it had the rear rally plate fixed the same way as the werks ones. Don’t know registration

Attachment 207973

Attachment 207974

306655S engine 960641 S-YS 848
Monte 1967 car #57; targa 67 car #46; Le Mans practice 1967 car #44 and car #5 rallye de Geneva 1967 for Hanrioud (4th)

Attachment 207975

S YS 847 Monte Carlo 1967 3rd #219 Vic Elford/David Stone

Attachment 207976

S YS 849 Monte Carlo Rally 14th-20th January 1967
13th 165 J-P.Hanrioud / J.C.Peray

Attachment 207977

308101S engine 961898 S ZP 740
Elfords car for cancelled RAC and 67 le Mans car #43

1967 911R prototypes


these are put in for completeness to match the table. there are lots of good posts on this board with more detail on these cars

4 cars and the table has some chassis numbers and other details wrong. Prototype chassis numbers should be:

305876 R1 911R Prototype 1 light ivory S-YZ 28
306681 R2 911R prototype 2 fire red S-YZ 29
307671 R3 911R prototype 3 tangerine S ZZ 829
307670 R4 911R prototype 4 lemon. No known werks registration number
Attachment 288802

This is 305876 R1 at Mugello in 1968

Attachment 207979


306681 R2

Attachment 207980



307671 R3

Attachment 207981


307670 R4


Plus “Production” cars 11899001R to 11899020R

1968 911S 2.0 “London to Sydney”



3 werks cars but chassis numbers not identified in table

Attachment 207982


UL-Y 826 11820427 ENGINE 908058 car #55 Hermann
Had previously done 1967:Acropolis Rally Spa 24 hours
84 hour Marathon de la Route on the Nurburgring and 1968: East African Safari

Attachment 207983


S-H 7987 car #58 Zasada London Sydney 1968 chassis 11801174 paint badge # 97-6809-L engine 4081428

Attachment 207984


S-H 7737 London Sydney car #59 T Hunter/J Davenport

Attachment 207985

1968 911S 2.0 “Rallye”



5 werks cars with 911/30 (should be 901/30?) engines. These may have been badged “T” in T/R homologated with “408 xxxx” S engines
11820433 engine 408 ????
11820455 engine 4080581 Registration 428 Z 2097 Monte Carlo 1968 #116 Pauli Toivonen then became BYK 90 for AAW team
11820472 engine 408 ????
11820702 engine 408 ????
11820765 engine 408 ???? S-E 8330 (68 Nurburgring Killy, Monza 1968 Killy, then rally car 1968 RAC Fall, 68 Geneva Toivonen, 1969 Alpine Larousse and then Larousse Magny Cours)
Only 4 engines recorded 4080588; 4080618; 4080931; 4081017;
Possible other Registrations: S-C 9166 (Elford at 68 Monte); S-C 9167 (Zasada at Monte ); S-E 8053;

Attachment 207993


11820455 Monte Carlo 1968 #116 Pauli Toivonen

Attachment 207994


Elford at 68 Monte “911T” and called “T” elsewhere

Attachment 207995

Acropolis Rally June 1968 3rd Pauli Toivonen/M.Kolari Porsche 911T


Attachment 207996

S-C 9167 1968 Monte Sobieslaw Zasada/Jerzy Dobrzanski “Porsche 911”
Is this one of the “L’s” – called an L in some rallies but a T in others

Attachment 207997


Killy May 1968 Nurburgring 1000km – 11820765

1968 911L “Zasada”



2 werks cars
11810409
11810591
Possible Registrations: S-C 9167; S-E 8052

Attachment 207998



1969 911R “Tour De France”
1 werks car 11899005R engine 5080019 S-K 2403


Attachment 207999

There were other 911R’s listed but not as werks cars. Does this imply this is the only werks entry?
So does that mean that S-K 2402 (008R) for Elford, Larousse etc was not a “werks” car despite being parked together at the werks and having a consecutive number??


Attachment 208000

1969 911S 2.0 “Rallye”



6 werks cars with 911/30 (should be 901/30?) engines:
119300529 engine ?? S-L 2263
119300530 engine ?? S-L 2264
119300548 engine ?? S-L 2265
119300912 engine 6390004 <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:TargetScreenSize>800x600</o:TargetScreenSize> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]-->S-M 2927
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:DoNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-AU</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <w:DontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> 119300931 engine ?? S-M 2928
119300932 engine 6390010 S-M 2929
Werks registrations
S-L 2263 1969 Monte car #37 Waldergard / Helmer
S-L 2264 1969 Monte car #31 Gérard Larrousse/Jean-Claude Perramond
S-L 2265 1969 Monte car #28 Elford / Stone
S-L 2266 1969 Monte car #25 Toivonen/ von Beifahre

Attachment 208001


That probably accounts for 4, but maybe one of them was a 68 car, or one of the so called "GT" cars which had very low 1969S chassis numbers and ran in the Marathon de la route that year, because there was a “SM” series of 3 cars for Acropolis, all in tangerine, totaling possibly 7 cars rather than 6 recorded in the table above??
S M 2927 car #6 Björn Waldegård/Lars Helmer
S M 2928 car #4 LARROUSSE / Jean-Claude Perramond
S M 2929 car#1 Pauli Toivonen/Martti Kolari


Attachment 208002


the 0912; 0931; and 0932 cars

Attachment 208003

Attachment 208004


Attachment 208005

Hugh,
Great thread idea.
For 69, the six VINs in the chart appear to map to acceptable production timelines for pulling these cars to prep for the respective events.
With that, I think it is a safe initial assumption that the 3 earlier cars are for the Monte Carlo (Jan 69) and the later 3 cars were for Acropolis (May 69).

As you point out though, that still leaves one VIN missing for Monte Carlo. An initial scan of photos I have from that event doesn't show any 68 looking cars but sometimes that doesn't mean much as exterior can mask an earlier chassis.

901/30 (not 911/30, chart typo?) engine numbers would have been 3880001-3880028 according to Red Book. Maybe these cars' engines could be determined via elimination based on engines in other known cars...?

ok, so i have to ask. What about zasadas 912 rally car? was it factory or privateer?

i have only been able to find little info on the car and would love to find more details on specs, set up, equipment etc.. you guys are far more resourceful..

anyways, back to his rally car. i show he raced the following cars in teh following series

1967 European Rally Championship for Drivers Group 1 Porsche 911 S / Porsche 912/ Porsche 911 S/ Porsche 912
1967 Polish Rally Championship for Drivers Lancia Fulvia 1.3 Coupé HF / Porsche 912/ Lancia Fulvia 1.3 Coupé HF/ Porsche 912

http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?ty...&driverid=2521


Here is a press release from porsche congratulating zasada for winning the european championship in his 912

http://912registry.org/images/racing/cpsz.gif

Quote:

---

"1967 Year-End Report.

Second part, Motorsport

Sobieslav Zasada, Polish Ralley Champion, 912.

Porsche wins the European Championship for Gran-Tourismo- and "Close-to-Road-Spec" cars.

Since the last Ralley Monte Carlo with the Porsche-Team, top driving-team Vic Elford/David Stone overarchieved all expectations and won with their Porsche 911S not only the Rally European Championship. They won the Lyon Charbonnieres Solitude, the Tulpenrally and the Rally Geneva in their class, too.

In the "Close-to Series" cars class, the Pole Sobieslaw Zasada the European Master Title in a Porsche 912.

Elford/Stone = 57 points, Zasada = 64 points"

---

we also show he won the polish rallye in his 912 too..

before posting the rest of these i want to address a couple of things posted or PM'd already
Davep has mentioned that to aid future searches i do the engine and chassis numbers without any spaces. That is a good idea so i will go back and edit those posted already and try to remember to get rid of the spaces in the rest of the posts. I typically record them with the spaces in my database as i have found it easier to work out patterns and the last group of numbers just give the serial number of each type of whatever. However when searching I take out the numbers so Dave's point is well made

Bryce mentioned that the engine type for the 69 cars should be 911/30 not 901/30 and suggested (correctly I think) that it is a chart typo. That prompted me to think to mention that while i have said at the top i think there are typos in the chart, and perhaps wrong information, in most cases, excluding where a number has been duplicated or is patently wrong and one instance where the chassis number in the table is known now to be incorrect (1970 TdF car), i have left typos in despite seeing some of them (and probably in ignorance of others). I think that this board can sort them out and we can then amend the posts but if i changed them arbitrarily i may change something that was correct, but looked wrong, to something that was wrong and a valuable piece of information that possibly contradicted known "views" might be buried.

Harry has brought up the 912 Zasada car. There is no doubt that it did have a great record in events, and it probably was supported by the factory as many entrants close to the factory were. However I think that, unless there is other evidence to the contrary, this table shows that it was not a werks car. There were many other cars as well that had great records, and were driven by people who also drove werks cars. Some of those cars were ex-werks, some were customer owned and probably supported by the factory at different levels. I hope that the data from this table and the collective wisdom of the board may sort out which cars were in which category. If we bget close to that i think it will be a valuable piece of information about the early competition cars.

Harry
i will post the information I have on that 912 a little later - before you get your hopes up it does not contain any of the technical details you mention - only photos and records of some of the events.