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First Series beauty......
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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...976-930-a.html
First Series beauty......
It's a shame its an original euro car, those tended to get used pretty hard over their.
Phil
Sahweet!
JohnA
That's ALL THE MONEY for an undocumented mileage car.
the NEXT must have item 75-77 930 :)
US & EURO
get em while you can....
Well, I wasn't commenting on the price - I don't care about the price because I'm not thinking of buying it. I just love these cars - a Primal Porsche Phenomena. These are perhaps the least subtle street Porsche, just a raw power weapon. The Porsche Road Runner Super Bird. Love 'em.Quote:
Originally Posted by 69Sman
JohnA
He thinks it's a long hood, :)
We all love these early turbos but the cost of any repairs is scary for most buyers. Sort of like buying a Ferrari 308 GTB.
Richard Newton
308 GTB.
one of my favorite NON porsches,
from "back in the day" circa 2000
thats my 71 T in the middle BEFORE it became 277!
Well gents, that just about says it. Move along - nothing to see here. Move along...
$75k for a undocumented, Euro-grey market 930 with marginal interior (sellers words),an incorrect passenger mirror, bad exchangers and rough wheels ? ! ?
Yeeeeeeeee Haaaaa !
My lil' ole '76 Turbos must be worth some duckets now !:D
'76 Turbo Carrera # 041 - Ice Blue/electric blue (44k miles)- '76 NY Autoshow display car - all documents
'76 Turbo Carrera # 116 - Black/tan (36k miles)- 4 owners, all documents (2nd owner drummer in rock group Boston)
'76 Turbo Carrera # 233 - White/tan (8k miles)- 2 Owner, Vasek Polak, 1of18 built as 934/5 backup cars- ALL documents
I only need two more !:(
C'mon Baron......pics please !
Chuck,
Knew you would like this.......
Not true. These cars with their 4 speed trannys' make them "ho-hum", compared to Rgrupped hotrods and GT-2 & GT-3's. I 've owned these cars and IMHO, 1st & 4th gears are a waste. Nothing happens until 2nd, and by that time the light turns red or you're @ 65MPH and it's more of the same. The 930's didn't become "that-car" until the G50-50 in 1989, then it was over.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaudette3
Funny, that these are now the newest fashion just like the 1964 & 1965 911's were the "fashion" a few months ago.
I currently own the late Otis Chandlers Ex-Euro 930 , with a 3.8 RSR spec motor. Even that aspirated , predictable, high torque motor with the 930 4 speed is lazy in first, and 4 is ho-hum. I will at some point replace with the 915 gearbox, which Porsche should have done early on.
The car that this thread is started with seems to be a " true right-car". I'm not convinced that it's "all the $$", considering the recent sales of 911 S cars.The most provacative aspect of the 930 Porsche is its "looks". Unmistakably one of the stars in the automotive fashion. It is always nominated by its peers as one of the top ten designs ever.
If someone really wanted the most collectable, usable 930, it is definitely the 1989 930.The switch from 4 speed to 5 speed, with the G50-50 is remarkable. These cars are great drivable cars without many quirks.
They were primal enough to be nicknamed "Doctor Killers". You have advanced driving skills. For those less gifted these cars were challenging.
JohnA
What, you don't like 6.5:1 compression ratio?
Apple, meet orange.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom F.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom F.
There were lots of problems with these early turbos, but my point was only that the general laziness of the car in around-town and off-boost driving was attributable to the low compression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reed
Points well taken!
Absolutely true, and 110% agreed, (of course, owning a '89 makes me a tad biased....) but Curtis is right on the money, (no pun....)Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisaa
The 930 in stock form are not the greatest cars but they are highly collectable anyways. They were built in small numbers (by Porsche standands) to begin with and many were wrecked, slopenosed etc. etc. I think the big deal with them is you cam really wake one up with a few bolt on mods. I had one with replaced turbo, SC cams, intercooler and exhaust, that car had no lag and was fricken rocket, cost me $25k a few years ago. They have gotten pretty spendy to hot rod but there are plenty of good examples already done out there for reasonable prices, most of the mods are easily reversible as cars climb in value. The main thing is finding one well cared for as fixing years of neglect can be very expensive, like any Porsche.
Phil
Maybe for you ! I've owned early Turbos ( as well as my '65s) for decades ..... long before they were "in vogue" as you put it. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by curtisaa
I've never heard anyone state that the 930 is no fun to drive! The "widow maker" is a handful for anyone...hence the name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom F.
Better take another drive.
This is 260 Horsepower that never felt like 260 Horsepower. It felt like more. These are some of the best built cars that ever came out of Zuffenhausen.
BTW; California IS the state that killed the original car (for the rest of us) with the law suits for those lacking skills. BTW; The other "Dr. Killer" was the Beech Bonanza. Cool plane but not for a beginner. Money doesn't impart talent.
For a visceral, in your face, balls out car I like these. Kind of like a mid-year Corvette. If I have to explain it you wouldn't understand. Raw. And that's good.
Tom
Only a Moron would compare a 36 year old, 260hp, 4speed car to a current 450-600hp, 6speed GT2 or GT3. I own both examples and both are a blast to drive in their own right !Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisaa
DITTO..... Anyone that can't handle 260hp with a little bit of boost to spice things up, should sell me their early Turbo and go buy a Prius !Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonardZ
I love my early 3lt,I dont care what anybody says!
Dont knock what you aint got.
[QUOTE=Baron;591772]Only a Moron would compare a 36 year old, 260hp, 4speed car to a current 450-600hp, 6speed GT2 or GT3. I own both examples and both are a blast to drive in their own right !
I didn't mean to ruffle anyones feathers nor am I going to get personal, however, ANNIE: I sold my 1976 930 to the French !!
[QUOTE=curtisaa;591829]No worries mate, BTW....... your daughter needs a haircut ...... she's looking a bit like Ronald McDonald !:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Baron
I still say, buy a G50-50 '89...best advice I ever got. And I ain't a moron either...:D:D:D
The '89 will always be known as best final iteration of the 930. Period.
The (75) 76-77 Turbos were THE rawest of the bunch and that's the point of the thread. When Porsche brought back the Turbo in '85 they had been "civilized". Certainly more power but the feared turbo lag was nearly gone. It was more linear.
The description of an early Turbo on boost is sort of like riding an RD350 or RZ350 when it "comes on the pipe". It happens really fast and in the case of the 2 stroke RD/RZ's will scare the $7it out of you if you're not ready. The power band on a 2 stroke is narrow as heck but when it hits it is a HOOT!
Carry on.
Tom
That made me laugh.....Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisaa
[QUOTE=sithot;591895]The '89 will always be known as best final iteration of the 930. Period.
BRAVO !!!!
Don't want to pick apart anyone's post, but this is certainly the first time I have ever heard of a 930's power delivery described as anything approaching "linear." That term and the 930 are usually not seen in the same paragraph, let alone the same sentence. Having owned every version of the 930, I can tell you turbo lag was never lessened in any meaningful way. If the car became more civilized over the years, it was because--like the Carrera--the 930 had addional sound deadining and luxury features not seen in the '70s cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by sithot
Why would anyone one want to own one of those early 930's? The new 997 Turbo's are obviously faster and way more comfortable...even my wife would drive one.
76-77 6.5:1 245hp@ 5500rpm 253lb/ft@4000rpm
78-79 7.0:1 265hp@ 5500rpm 291lb/ft@4000rpm
86-89 7.0:1 282hp@ 5500rpm 287lb/ft @4000rpm
IF Porsche didn't think they had civilized the car they would have never brought it back. Why set yourself up for another California buggering?
BTW:
'87 930
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-9...ml#post3159148
Tom
LOL! I smell a troll :pQuote:
Originally Posted by craighardy
That's like asking why would anyone drive one of the old, out-dated and rough riding RS Carrera's and 911's? This is the Early S Registry not the Vintage Cadillac Owners Club. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by craighardy
Tom
Not sure what those numbers are meant to show. As to why Porsche brought it back, I think the answer is $$$$ since cars were coming in anyway through grey market channels and Porsche N.A. wasn't getting any of those sales. I think the most significant measure intended to "civilize" the car upon its reintroduction was a change of sway bar diameter and wider rear wheels to promote understeer. Most reviewers at the time complained that Porsche had done so little to improve (read: modernize) the 930. In essence, that time had caught up to and passed the legendary supercar.Quote:
Originally Posted by sithot
I was confused about your reference to a "California buggering" and was worried this thread was veering way off course until I read a few posts up.:)
I heard the same comment from a guy in a new Camaro speaking to another fellow in a 1968 Z/28. I guess if you have to explain it............Quote:
Originally Posted by craighardy
I don't think you've actually driven a car until you've driven a car that can't pull your buns out of the fire if you "choose poorly" with your driving decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonardZ
C'mon, where's the fun?
I wish we had the Japanese system for motorcycle licensing as well as drivers licensing.
Tom
Yep. That would throw the whole thread into a tail spin. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by reed
Tom
Now this thread is why I've missed this forum while I was away. It reminds me of a bunch of guys sitting around a fire drinking beer giving each other Ess-h-i-t. This board is best enjoyed by those who can dish it out and those who can take it.
JohnA
This is a fun thread ....... can't believe that Chuck hasn't made it disappear yet !:D :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by jaudette3
For those 930 "experts" who have chimed in on this thread and have put the '89 5 speed on such a pedestal, I found it interesting that after fourteen (14) years of constant developement (according to Car & Driver) the '89 5speed is only marginally quicker in some categories than the original '75 260hp 3 liter. In fact, the little '76 beats it's mighty "5 speed" intercooled sibling in the 0-120 run and the standing km !
This is inspite of the fact that the '89 5speed has a 10% larger displacement, an intercooler, far better brakes, extra gear, larger exhaust, etc, etc.....
The main reason that Porsche gave the '89 a 5speed was to compensate for the extra weight and restrictions that had accumulated over the previous decade. The '89 is a heavier car because of the EPA & DOT mandated emissions and side impact protection, etc...
CAR&DRIVER Performance data: Porsche 930
Model.................0-60mph...0–100 km/h....0–160 km/h(100 mph)..0–200km/h.....1/4mile..1 km....Top speed
1975 930 260 hp....5.2 s......5.5 s..............12.4s ..........................20.1s..............?........24.2s...246 kmh (153 mph)
1978 930 300 hp....5.0 s......5.4 s..............12.0s ..........................19.7s ............?..........24.4s...260.9 kmh (162 mph)
1984 930 330 hp....4.6 s......4.8 s..............11.6s ..........................17.7s..............?.... .....23.8s...278 kmh (173 mph)
1989 930 5-speed..4.9 s.......5.1 s..............12.0s ..........................20.4s.............13.6.. ...24.6s...260 kmh (162 mph)
Car & Driver http://www.caranddriver.com/
I'm fortunate enough to have driven a '76-'78-'89 in a back to back scenario (same day, same track) and while the '89 Turbo is more linear in it's delivery of power, the early cars are far more visceral with a raw delivery of power much more in keeping with it's 934-35 siblings
Side note: Several very successful vintage racers I know, have been quietly using the early 930 4 speed in their early 911 racecars because they are "Bullet-proof" (probably gonna be pissed that I'm letting this little secret out)
I hope this helps !
Chuck
'76 Turbo Carrera #041 Ice Blue
'76 Turbo Carrera #116 Black
'76 Turbo Carrera #233 White
'79 Turbo #0960 PTS Grey
'79 Turbo #1115 Red
Poor old dumb hillbilly. I guess I can find my ass with both hands and a flashlight. :rolleyes:
Tom
Great comparison, John. I do love these threads. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by jaudette3
Yes, a nice change from the "Will this devalue my car?" threads.
I remember giving driving instructions at our autocross years ago to an enthusiastic new member with an early 930. I loved the acceleration when we did slalom practice! It was a challenging car to teach in, though, in the tight autocross corners. That turbo lag never seemed to kick in at the right time! What a fun car, though...
A friend's Kremer-modified '78 930 (his father bought it new and Germany and sent it directly over to Kremer's shop for modification) started my interest in early Porsches so I salute the beast. Very cool car and extremely scary acceleration. Yes, there are obviously modern street cars that accelerate much faster, etc. but few are quite as fear-inducing as that 930- just simple and fast.
And yes, thanks for starting a good thread with some solid discussion on an actual car- was beginning to OD on too much value talk.
Marco
Non-linear? Maybe, but doesnt the boost peak at always the same rpm level? So you know when its gonna hit.
Hey Reza,Quote:
Originally Posted by Reza
Great question and very reasonable assumption !
The objective of a turbocharger is to improve an engine's volumetric efficiency by increasing density of the intake gas (usually air).
"Boost" refers to the amount by which intake manifold pressure exceeds atmospheric pressure. This is representative of the extra air pressure that is achieved over what would be achieved normally without forced induction. The boost is controlled by "flow" (your left foot) Below a certain rate of flow, a compressor will not produce significant boost. This has the effect of limiting boost at particular rpm regardless of exhaust gas pressure.
On paper, it always spools up at the same rpm but this is governed by the amount of fuel dumped into the equation; The harder you mash the "Go Pedal" = more fuel into the cylinders = more exhaust gases = quicker and more efficiently the turbo will spool up. One can gently climb (20-30% pedal) through the rpm range all the way to redline without the full effects of the boost.
Newer turbocharger applications and advanced ECU developments have caused boost thresholds to steadily decline.
This principle differs from superchargers which are not powered by exhaust gases but driven by the engine mechanically via belts, chains, shafts or gears. Most automotive applications (hotrods & drag racing) use either belts or gears. A supercharger places a mechanical load on the engine where a turbocharger does not.
So, for the Prius drivers out there that can't handle 260hp, just use a light loafer and this beast won't bite you ...... I promise !:D
You generally know when the boost is going to hit. What you don't always appreciate is just how hard and exactly where you will be when it does. In a straight line, I don't think anyone got too badly bitten by a stock 930. But when boost comes on in a corner or turn, it can be difficult to regulate the power to the limit of adhesion.
The best analogy I can think of is that the stock 930 delivers its boost like an on-off light switch. Modern turbos do the same thing with a dimmer. Much safer, not as much fun.
Don't ask me why ( cuz I'm a moron ) , but when I was driving my 1976 Turbo, the erratic boost was NO problem turning left , it was the right turns that pissed me off !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by reed
Curt,Quote:
Originally Posted by curtisaa
You made me smile with this one. Your dilemma is very common because we (North Americans) drive from the left side of the car. Most people when learning to drift, are initially very comfortable drifting (power-sliding, or whatever else you want to call it ) towards their left because of the subconsciously perceived safety concerns.
When turning or drifting left, one feels that if the car were to loose control and hit a curb, wall, tree, etc., they have the opposite side of the car to protect them. When drifting, sliding to the right, the left rear comes out and the driver feels that if the car comes into contact with something causing a subsequent abrupt stop, he might get hurt, because the left side of his head is three inches from the door glass.
I saw this all the time when instructing at schools such as Bertil Roos, Barber, etc..
Since you have this underlying fear (which is natural but easy to overcome) your brain signals going to the left foot are much more tentative and erratic causing your foot movements to be far less subtle than they are when going into a left radius turn.
The results of these subconscious signals and erratic footwork on the left pedal are magnified in the boost which can play havoc when one is trying to be smooth.
Happens to a lot of people and most don't even realize that they are more proficient in a certain direction than the other. The nature of the turbo magnifies this situation and feeling !
If you're not convinced with this theory, I invite you to go to any large (empty) parking lot (Sunday mornings at dawn work best) that is slightly wet and try drifting in both directions. I think that you'll be surprised with what you'll learn !
Hope this helps.
I own one of these back around 2005 and this car does not look original. The door cards have been replaced and well as the seats. The euro cars came with plaid coth insert seats.
A 75 3.0 turbo is more than 400lbs lighter than later 3.3 turbos, and that's more important than the 40bhp difference IMO.
The power delivery is of course far from linear, but the engine is revvier and the car light, and the driving experience is pure fun, even in places that one would say are not the ideal environment for an early 930, like alpine passes.
Here's my car one month ago on the top of the Susten Pass in Switzerland.
Attachment 226017
In the Press pack that was handed out to journalists at the presentation of the 930 (at the Paris Salon in october 1974) there was a comparative chart of the power and torque curves of the 911/83 carrera 2.7 MFI engine and the new turbocharged one. Very interesting:
Attachment 226019
Andrea
Ditto .....That's what I've been trying to say ! ! ! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by vipergruen
More than 400 lbs? Made me crack open my Porsche books, I figure it more like 340 lbs which is still a hell of a lot. Where the heck did Porsche add 340 lbs besides the bigger brakes and an intercooler. Too bad these damn things have gotten so expensive.
Phil
Oh and that ice green turbo is stunning, love to see more pics:D
Phil
I've wondered that as well. I'd also add to the list: larger wheels and the tea tray spoiler. That said, I'd like to see the weight difference for myself using original U.S. cars on the same scale. I suspect some of the numbers being cited for the early cars may be for European models which often had different specs than U.S. models.Quote:
Originally Posted by pu911rsr
The weight for a 75MY (ROW production only) is given at 1140kgs (2513lbs), while 76MY and 77MY are 1195kgs (2513lbs) for both US and ROW, probably due to galvanization and a few small differences in the 75 (door panels, dash like the pre-bumper cars, etc).
I don't have my data over here, but if I recall the 3.3 liter cars are 1300kgs (2865lbs) and 1335kgs (2942lbs) from 86My on, when they started to have electric seats and other amenities as standard.
When I was searching for my car, I specifically wanted the lighteset possible standard, so it had to be a 75 car without all that you don't need (A/C, sunroof, etc) and all you need (sport seats, /50 tires). Here are a few more photos of it:
Attachment 226060
Attachment 226063
Interior is full leather (was a no-cost option) with black watch tartan inserts, introduced in 75My for the turbo only and later extended to the whole 911 range
Attachment 226068
Here's the rebuilt engine just before re-installation:
Attachment 226064
Andrea
A beautiful car Andrea!
This ' 76 Euro was part of my stable until some woman talking on a cell phone T-boned me while I was trying to pull into my driveway. :(
Are there any really nice and original '75 Euro 930s or '76 930s available other than this silver car? PM me.
Andrea,
Your weight figures agree the figures I found, so in round number we are talking 230 lbs between a US Spec 76 and 79. That is a breathtaking car, love the tartan seats.
Phil
Nice Turbo Andrea. Love the interior.