The third 911 ever built is also still out there (1964)

This will shake up the ranking a little bit. Porsche 911 with VIN number 300003 is also out there. It is owned by mr. Freisinger in Germany. I'm not sure if he wanted 1,5 or 2,5 million for it, or maybe the price is a rumor and he doesn't want to sell at all. Did not see the car yet, but it was confirmed by two well informed people.

Would be nice to see a picture of this car, so if anyone has one, please post.

Erik

Nice one Erik, since #300001 and #300002 are ( considered) prototypes, is this the first production 901? ( lowest number anyway) i believe #300007 was the first one finished?

So what is the real first 901? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kouwenhoven

.....or maybe the price is a rumor and he doesn't want to sell at all....
Erik

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for the right €€€€ freisinger sells everything ....
unless he does not like you...

Very cool, Erik. I sure wish I had the contacts you do...

Hi Erik,

It was nice meeting you in person at RRV.

#300003 is a prototype cabriolet, not production. Interesting to note, the first two prototype cabriolets were once owned by Mr. Freisinger, 300003 and 13360.

Jay
300005

Hello Jay

Nice meeting you too. Very good that you drove your car to RRV instead of turning it into a trailer queen.
It's an interesting discussion which cars were prototypes and which were production cars. According to Lewandowski, who based his book on Porsche-info, there were 13 prototypes, all starting with VIN number '13'. And then there were two series cars, number 300001 and 300002. Maybe you or Bob have better info, because Lewandowski's book is somewhat off on a few other subjects too and I trust Bob more on this subject. If so, please let us know.

Erik

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kouwenhoven

According to Lewandowski, who based his book on Porsche-info

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wrong. All infos Lewandowski wrote in his 901 book are based on Aichele's book, which first came out in 1993.
Lewandowsky copy-pasted Aichele's detailed infos about the prototyps for his newer coffee-table book, with Aichele's OK.
Aichele's book was the first one being based entirely on Porsche-Archiv infos. He was still able to interview Bott, Hanstein and Ferry, which died in 94, 96 and 98, respectively. He also talked with Falk, Hensler and Mezger for his book.
Years ago I translated these once hard-to-get (back then available in german language only) infos about the prototyps from Aichele's book for Bob and thats how Bob initially got the infos for the US.

BTW Jay is right. According to Aichele, there were several 300xxx which were prototyps, even they had 300xxx numbers, and not 13xxx. They were also more 13xxx produced then the currently 13+1 expl. known and documented. As we all know, of all 13xxx only 13327 and 13360 are currently alive. 300001 and 300002 are prototyps and do exists on photos and had plates S-UN 478 and S-UN 476. Both were sold by the factory, 001 in early 1966 and 002 in mid-1968. 300003 was probably noted as a prototyp and so 300007 the first produced 901. At least this is my guess while studying the infos and production timeline.

Hi Erik,

Karim pretty much nailed it. Lewandowski’s book is based on the works of Aichele, Frère and Ludvigsen.

Lewandowski writes from the point of view of “the long, difficult labor and internal difficulties” of the development process but credits Aichele for the research.

The source material of most of my readings can usually be traced back to Aichele. In fact, most of this post can be traced back to Tobias Aichele.

Aichele only lists and describes 13 prototypes in his book because during his extensive research he states, “These few cars define the history of the 911 up to the delivery of the first production cars. Naturally, there were more than the listed 13.” This part of his research was focused on the successor to the 356 and all the new design changes and challenges. Variants like cabriolet, targa, roadster, 912 would flow “naturally” from the new platform. Aichele documents 6 early variants of the open air design. Also, in an October 20, 1961 memo to Reutter notes, “….that in the design (T8) of the exterior skin, the vehicle also should be buildable as an open air car. “ We now know that time and money constraints (and maybe some other things) would put the production Cabrio on hold for many years. The Targa however, was introduced at the 1965 Frankfurt Show.

However slow, we know that work never stopped on open air 911’s. 13360 is truly a treasure and I hope to see it in person someday. Aichele devotes a chapter to the subject of “Open 911.”

On the topic of what is a prototype, can really only be verified a couple of ways. The challenge is Porsche had their own convention and even that was flexible. For example, beginning with the very first chassis number, the cars were known as the so-called “Series 0,” which remained in production until July 1967. This designation often leads to confusion, as the standard adopted sequence by the auto industry is as follows: the first cars are hand-built prototypes, followed by a pre-production series for development tests. Next come the “0 series or zero series” cars which incorporate production parts whenever possible. These cars, usually built in a series of fifty, are built using production tooling. In the case of Porsche 911, however, “0 series” does not refer to these but rather the entire series prior to a later Series A (such as for example 356, followed by 356A). Today the identifiers in the car industry have been unified to avoid confusion.

As Karim pointed out, 300001 and 300002 are documented pre-production/test cars. We also know 300007 and 300003 were produced before 001 and 002 but not mentioned by Aichele. It’s my opinion that both 003 and 007 were pre-production/test cars and by not being mention by Aichele indicates a variant.

I think we need another researcher like Aichele to fill in the blanks and pick up where he left off. Deep dive journalism is rare indeed.

Karim was kind enough to translate an interesting article by German Journalist Wolfgang Blaube. Check it out.
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ighlight=13360

Jay
300005

Thanks for all of the leg work gentlemen. Fascinating, geeky stuff. Even I get bored reading it.

Sooo... what's the oldest production car known to exist that wasn't used as a prototype or race car?

Well its interesting to see from the a copy of the Build book from Bob Fleming that 300003 was the second production made car being built on the 15th of September. As you all may know the first one was 300007. However it also states that 300003 had a Blaupunkt radio fitted in the car whilst 007, 001, and 002 did not. Now I'm not sure if this is because 003 was going to a customer or not, but it doesn't make that much sense to me at least to spec up a prototype with a radio-unless there was some purpose to that. Perhaps maybe 007, 001 and 002 were the prototypes. I don't know for sure. There is no evidence from the build book that 300003 is a Cabriolet as was suggested above. This probably would have been stipulated in the build book-as it was for 13360 when it had an engine fitted in January 1965. Is there any evidence anywhere to show that 300003 was a prototype cabriolet? Not saying that it wasn't, just would like to see the evidence that's all..

Just from the equipment, you probably cant define if its prototyp or 901.

All those prototyps had pretty high equipment and were used as press cars (as Jay's 005). Unless they were destroyed, the were readapted/modified and prepared to be sold. 002 was the 1965 Targa Florio training car, 001 was a test car for tires. Both were sold later to private customers. Some (13326) were used by Piech while driving in the alps and Harald Wagner used a 901 prototyp for a wedding (photo exists). Possible the factory use defined if proto or "real" 901 and probably 007 was the first aimed to be sold "unsused".

Btw, the first Build book picture was by Aichele. Its the page we all have seen and shows 007 as being first.
Bob Fleming later got access to the archiv and could see much more details on this book.

I would love to see that wedding photo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911T1971

Just from the equipment, you probably cant define if its prototyp or 901.

All those prototyps had pretty high equipment and were used as press cars (as Jay's 005). Unless they were destroyed, the were readapted/modified and prepared to be sold. 002 was the 1965 Targa Florio training car, 001 was a test car for tires. Both were sold later to private customers. Some (13326) were used by Piech while driving in the alps and Harald Wagner used a 901 prototyp for a friend's wedding (photo exists). Possible the factory use defined if proto or "real" 901 and probably 007 was the first aimed to be sold "unsused".

Btw, the first Build book picture was by Aichele. Its the page we all have seen and shows 007 as being first.
Bob Fleming later got access to the archiv and could see much more details on this book.

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Hear what you are saying. However one(at least I do) then has to question the term "prototype" and whether that applies or whether they should just be called "Test" cars instead. It depends how you define the term Prototype. IMO a prototype is a conceptual model-which can also be a working model, which embodies and captures the intent or idea of a design and which ultimately leads to the development of a production model. I think this makes it important as it usually also represents "the origin of the species" per say. Without wishing to be controversial or negative, I personally I wouldn't class a press car as such, although I acknowledge that many people, and maybe the factory may do. Also testing a tire out doesn't in my book make for a prototype. I think that the term prototype does get abused somewhat and perhaps should be clarified more clearly when people use this term. Of course Karim, above you have indeed clarified the specific cars use so thank you. Then people can perhaps determine themselves the cars position, and perhaps importance in history. All of course IMHO...

Agree with you. Just wanted to share infos and some is IMHO.

If you read the developing history of the 901, you see it was more "try and error". It was basicially a mess, as many which were involved later reported.
You probably cant pinpoint a definition which clearly defines what was a prototyp for them…as they even sold those cars later too ! True is we took for granted that 001 and 002 were prototyps but 007 was not…maybe its wrong.
13xxx are shurely different then 300xxx, maybe this made a cut.
But also possible they took some 300xxx cars and used them as prototyps as 13xxx, while others were sold to clients directly…who then often complained and sent their new cars back to the factory for repairing/adapting.. as many factory documents proof: these early 901 cars were not properly ready for the market.

Btw its much more then "tire testing"..i dont know if its the place to list all these infos:
For example 002 was in factory use and had several engines mounted, among others a Carrera engine. Used for aerodynamic testing w tires, suspension, straight-line drive and strut level/angle testing. Drove in Monza-Italy, Nurburgring, Monte Carlo and elsewhere. Was prepared to be sold in late 1965.
The factory noted its a "Vorserienwagen" ie pre-series production car.

Aichele notes that even he gave in his book detailed infos about these cars he held back some important key-infos of these prototyp cars and which can identify each car.
I assume the factory did not want to give a template so someone could build a (fake)-copy.
All these infos were written in Germany over 20 years ago, when few were interested and value of these cars very low.

Here are -for example- the detailed infos on 300002.
First published in 1993 by Aichele
Attachment 363533


And here the today "famous" build book list.
First published in 1993 by Aichele.

I'm sorry but for some reason I cannot see the photos or get the Aichele's attachment Karim.
It's all very interesting of course, and I am sure we can't get the full 100% picture of exactly how things were. We are getting the information second and third hand and now 50 years plus later it becomes harder still! Just like any historical event.
And in fact it may be that many things were at play at the same time and there was no objectively "right" scenario, because there were a number of "players" within Porsche who each had a viewpoint and opinion of how things should be.....

you are right money talks if you deal with mr freisinger

Hope this does it

I find this interesting too

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frank Beck

I would love to see that wedding photo.

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here you go Frank
From Aichele's book
Attachment 363595

You beat me to it: I was just about to post a photo of the same page...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HughH

here you go Frank
From Aichele's book
Attachment 363595

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does this LHD car have windshield-wipers resting on the passenger side - or would they be just parked there to have a point to connect the flowers to?

Wiper park was a moving target. Obviously there were left park and right park and many early photos showing 1964 cars with each.

Right park won out after the Monte Carlo race car #055 had it's park changed mid race in January 1965. Herbert Linge was driving from a low race seat, and he is a shorter guy, that race was the snowiest of all time with the wipers packing snow at the bottom of the windshield, mid-rally the photos show the park position changed. In the spring of 1965 car reviews included, in a long list of features, "wipers parked in the 'correct' placement" on the right side.

Photo 1 Prior to the race at the factory. Left side

Photo 2 After the wiper change.

Photo 3 During the last stages of the rally

And another 1964 car #149 with it's never changed wiper position (even though the owner took a lot of flak for the flat rear license panel (questioned as surely a bad repair) and those wipers (questioned as surely on the wrong park side)... Both items were as the car left the factory.

Thanks Bob - the knowledge on this site never ceases to amaze me!

It seems Freisinger is restoring 300069.
http://www.freisinger-motorsport.de/...tail/2896.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stradman

Hear what you are saying. However one(at least I do) then has to question the term "prototype" and whether that applies or whether they should just be called "Test" cars instead.

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I was able to do further research at Porsche how they defined the 901 develiopment and also why 300007 was officially the "first" 901, while 300001 and 300002 were still noted as Prototyps (or rather "Vor-serien Fahrzeuge" ie "Pre-series vehicule).
Back then, the factory defined 3 categories:

-T8 (901) Prototyps: built almost completely by hand (Karmann, later the factory) and with various parts not seen on other prototyps, all had 13xxx numbers. These 13xxx cars also were noted as cars with "Ersatzkarrosserien" ie replacement shells. These cars were the first realisations of what was beforehand just designed on plans and various scale models. 13321 was the very first Prototyp but after 13330, the next one was 13352. 13360 was used as Convertible and Targa prototyp, 13396 also.
(as reported by the current owner of prototyp 13007 "Barbarossa", even the car's roofline was unique, side windows shape are unique as well as the 2-dial dashboard and many other parts, indicating not one 13xxx was similar to another 13xxx or 901)

-Vorserienwagen (901) ie "Pre-series" cars, cars used for all kind of testing (engine, suspensions, tires, interiors, maintenance, some also used as Press cars and/or show cars), these cars were still built mostly by hand -mostly at the factory itself- but usually had much more built similarities amongst themselves.
Factory records show that at least 300001 and 300002 were still noted as Vorserienwagen.

-0 serie/Nullserie (901) ie "Zero serie", cars built at the factory on the fully fonctional factory production line. Parts were now as much as possible standardsized and cars were not built in the same manner as prototyps or Vorserienwagen. From these type of cars, usually 50 cars were built. Factory records show that 300007 was the first car of this Nullserie.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911T1971

I was able to do further research at Porsche how they defined the 901 develiopment and also why 300007 was officially the "first" 901, while 300001 and 300002 were still noted as Prototyps (or rather "Vor-serien Fahrzeuge" ie "Pre-series vehicule).
Back then, the factory defined 3 categories:

-T8 (901) Prototyps: built almost completely by hand (Karmann, later the factory) and with various parts not seen on other prototyps, all had 13xxx numbers. These 13xxx cars also were noted as cars with "Ersatzkarrosserien" ie replacement shells. These cars were the first realisations of what was beforehand just designed on plans and various scale models. 13321 was the very first Prototyp but after 13330, the next one was 13352. 13360 was used as Convertible and Targa prototyp, 13396 also.
(as reported by the current owner of prototyp 13007 "Barbarossa", even the car's roofline was unique, side windows shape are unique as well as the 2-dial dashboard and many other parts, indicating not one 13xxx was similar to another 13xxx or 901)

-Vorserienwagen (901) ie "Pre-series" cars, cars used for all kind of testing (engine, suspensions, tires, interiors, maintenance, some also used as Press cars and/or show cars), these cars were still built mostly by hand -mostly at the factory itself- but usually had much more built similarities amongst themselves.
Factory records show that at least 300001 and 300002 were still noted as Vorserienwagen.

-0 serie/Nullserie (901) ie "Zero serie", cars built at the factory on the fully fonctional production line. Parts were now as much standardsized as possible. From theses cars, usually 50 cars were built. Factory records show that 300007 was the first car of this serie.

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Uh Oh.


This is going to poke a hornet's nest.

Any pics of 003 yet?

Here is a period Photo of 300003, according to a source.
Ferry Porsche with his secretary Helene Werkmeister, 1964.
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...pspfpwbudy.jpg




And here a factory document about 300003, built September 15th, signed by Helmut Bott.
Note how it says "Wagen von Herrn Porsche"
(on a side note: in factory documents, Butzi was always noted as "Herrn Porsche jr.", his father always as "Herrn Porsche").
Its the first test drive of this car, two months before a client received any 901.
The report compares 300003 to "Wagen 901/8" and "901/9". Could be 300008 and 300009, built on Sept 22 and 24th, respectvely.
Report/"Aktennotiz" below say that car 300003 had vibrations above 140km/h and the steering wheel vibrated at any time.
Engine on cold was not running properly but engine power good, heating not yet working properly since cant be completly stopped, Transmission/gear change still hard to use, Brakes good but tuning not good, straight-direction driving of car not satisfying, oversteers in curve, strong wheight/balance reactions of car at throttle changes. Rattle noises in left door and behind right, passenger window is not flush with chassis and at 180km/h, moves out by about 10mm (!) (about 1/2 inch), Seat too high.
Signed September 18th 1964.
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psvizate9m.jpg

Having the first 911 that Ferdinand farted in would indeed be significant.

So according to post #5 003 is a cabriolet?

on a sidenote - In a new book of Aichele written in 2009 -available only in German- the author writes that a new 901 prototyp was found in the USA.
Its VIN is 13415. According to Aichele it was a test car for US (specs). I currently have no further infos neither pics.

Wrong. That is a 912 prototype Karim

http://www.wholesalecalifornia.com/h...range_912.html

Erik

Thx Eric. Interesting, didnt know. Its still significant and only its Kardex reveils if its a 901 or 902.

Most 901/902 exchanged 4 cylinder & 6 cylinder units and had mounted several ones on them.
Some had only 6 cylinder units (300 001, 13327, 13326, 13325 etc) but most had both types mounted.
On the 13 detailed known 901 prototyps (two were 902), five received engines changes made to 4 cylinder units:

901/1, 13321 had a S90 4 cylinder unit, later a 6 cylinder unit (engine no.08)
901/8, 13328 had first a 6 cylinder unit, after August 1965 a 4 cylinder unit, sold on April 18th 1968
901/9, 13329 had first a 6 cylinder unit, later changed to a 4 cylinder unit.
902/10, 13330 had a 4 cylinder unit, engine number 830 001
902/11, 13352, had a 4 cylinder unit engine number 813 422, sold on September 9th 1965
911/13, 300002 had first a 6 cylinder unit, later changed to 4 cylinder unit, engine no. 832 060, sold on May 17th 1965

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911T1971

Thx Eric. Interesting, didnt know. Its still significant and only its Kardex reveils if its a 901 or 902.

Most 901/902 exchanged 4 cylinder & 6 cylinder units and had mounted several ones on them.
Some had only 6 cylinder units (300 001, 13327, 13326, 13325 etc) but most had both types mounted.
On the 13 detailed known 901 prototyps (two were 902), five received engines changes made to 4 cylinder units:

901/1, 13321 had a S90 4 cylinder unit, later a 6 cylinder unit (engine no.08)
901/8, 13328 had first a 6 cylinder unit, after August 1965 a 4 cylinder unit, sold on April 18th 1968
901/9, 13329 had first a 6 cylinder unit, later changed to a 4 cylinder unit.
902/10, 13330 had a 4 cylinder unit, engine number 830 001
902/11, 13352, had a 4 cylinder unit engine number 813 422, sold on September 9th 1965
911/13, 300002 had first a 6 cylinder unit, later changed to 4 cylinder unit, engine no. 832 060, sold on May 17th 1965

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I have engine 900108 and I am interested in learning where the information in the above quote came from. I knew it bounced around a little early on, first in 300008, then in 300021. Is engine no.8 (mentioned above being in 13321) the same as 900108? I'm assuming so, but I'd like some help verifying this. I've never seen the above information.

Hi, Re the engine number, on 13321, its rather 900008
For Crossreference and to complete the list above:
13322 had engine 900003 (destroyed) and 900012.
13325 had engine No.11, then No.15
13326 had engine No.6, later No.154
13327 had engine No.14.
300001 had engine No.121, transmission 100.018-901/10
300002 had engine No.103, transmission 100 004

Info first published by Aichele 1995 in his book (published in German) and again by him in 2009.
Read more about here post No.23: http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...796#post850796

"Prototyp 13321, white, built 1962 by Reutter, Engine 08 (before a S90 356 engine), Transmission 741/2A No.304 (4 speed), rear suspension from a 356, Girling brakes, chassis noted as destroyed beginning 1965"

BTW, he notes always engine No.xx but on 13322, its clearly 90000x
To each of these cars, there is much more infos listed, I listed above just the most important ones.

[QUOTE=IAA1963;850118]It seems Freisinger is restoring 300069.
http://www.freisinger-motorsport.de/...tail/2896.html[/QUOTE

I missed this in 016.

Did they ever finish it or was it sold while being under restoration?

Richard

Quick update:
https://www.freisinger-motorsport.de...ail/10010.html

Not sure if this has been posted, words of Peter Falk:

“As a development mule we mounted a 356 with a Daimler double wishbone at the front and a semi-trailing arm axle at the rear. That was the so-called Gottlieb in honour of Gottlieb Daimler.
Wonderfully camouflaged. Now we had a fantastic chassis ... or so we thought. Well, the moment of truth eventually arrived. The experimental workshop put a 901 together for the first time, with Rombold as director, Helmuth Bott, Herbert Linge and me.

“The first car was followed by only a few prototypes”.
Photos in same source but credit is Porsche Werkesphoto
Photo caption: July 10 1963 on test drive
Attachment 614871
Attachment 614872
Falk was a young engineer in the “experimental department” at the time.

Steve