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Raj:
I think Hugh Hodges has one of the best data bases to start this project, but also John Starkey has a good listing. Not sure how it could best be done, but (1)MY, (2)VIN, (3)ownership, and pictures of the various cars that look like STs in competition from period shots, even when very little is known about them, i.e. items (1), (2), or (3), would be a good start. Pictures are probably the best to anchor the data on each car.
There are some real knowledgeable folks who visit this site with interest in STs, so chime on in here.
Ok here goes :)
There have been a lot of great posts on this board about ST’s, some by current owners providing a lot of detail about their cars.
Also Raj recently provided a great picture on another thread (reproduced here) showing a list of 1972 ST’s including engine numbers in most cases.
Along with the ST’s were some cars apparently known as SR’s with Group 3 or group 4 modifications? It is not at all clear to me how to differentiate them from ST’s given neither were official designations and there were no specific Vin numbers for either – unlike the RS or R - can anyone help on this aspect?
I have heard somewhere that the ST’s were from 1969 to 1971 and the E series 1972 cars were mainly “SR’s”. Maybe someone on the board with more detailed knowledge in this area can help clarify whether there is any truth in this.
To further complicate this area cars were constructed in at least 3 different ways and to lots of different specifications so that there is probably no such thing as a “typical ST”.
The different production methods included:
1) pulled off the production line and built up as a factory built car in either rallye or track form
2) built up by a customer team using a standard car and factory supplied options kit
3) completely built from scratch by a customer team in which case the vin number may not look anything like a “normal ST”
There are also a lot of different claims on how many such cars were produced. I suspect the answer will only be available for factory constructed cars (if then) as the details of all the customer modified cars and cars built up by race teams to comply with group 3 or group 4 homologation papers are likely to never be known.
I have also seen various references to the claim that the werks only ever used these cars in rallye form and left the track versions (both factory produced and otherwise) to customer teams and privateers.
So to a certain extent I suspect that it is a futile exercise to try and catalogue such cars – although that is a great reason for trying to do it here as it is unlikely that a book like the RS book or Starkey's books will be produced due to these ambiguities.
It is also hard to say if one construction method is “more relevant” or “more important” or “more correct” than another – it probably depends more on the actual car and its history than how it originated although there must always be a “premium” – not necessarily in price terms – placed on a factory produced car with appropriate papers. Indeed the 1972 Kremer and Brumos cars are amongst the more “important” or maybe “famous” ST’s and I understand that they are built up by the respective teams from factory kits and base cars rather than Werks constructed race cars..
However to start the ball rolling I will post details of the cars I have in my database. I have collected these over a substantial period of time. I make no claims about the accuracy of the data except to say that as far as possible it has been checked, and the cars with photos of factory letters or similar identification are probably correct. I would welcome any further information to ad to the collective knowledge in this area. A lot of the information has been sourced from books (such as by John Starkey), websites etc and I would like to acknowledge the contribution made by all of those and posters on this and other boards at the start.
These were the three werks cars for the 1970 Monte Carlo Rallye.
There are numerous references to their Vin numbers and specifications and that a "further 15 or so ST's were produced" (presumably for the 1970 MY) but i don't have any on factory letterhead.
Trying to stick to the "rules" for this thread suggested by Gib and Raj starting with 0001:
model year 1970
Vin 911 030 0001
registration number ST 5704
original use - werks rallye car 1970 Monte Carlo for Waldergard / Helmer
Engine Size: 2.3 Liter
Horsepower: 250
Weight: 1900 lbs
major achievement - winner of 1970 Monte as car 6
I have no competition records post that although it seems that it was used by Siffert as a recce or practice car before the 1970 Targa Florio.
Photos: car 6 at Monte (x3) and S-T 5704 at Targa (x2)
I have no other information as to what might have happened to it
From Panorama 1/96 P109
"Info leading to 1972 safety yellow 911 2.5 race car #9112300921, eng
#6622030, gear box #120016, former IMSA GTU car #51, Johnson-Bozzani
sponsored, later painted white wired details."
Picture from Mid-Ohio 1973
second of 3 werks cars for 1970 Monte
model year 1970
Vin 911 030 0002
registration number ST 5705
original use - werks rallye car 1970 Monte Carlo for Larrousse / Gelin car #2
Engine Size: 2.3 Liter
Horsepower: 250
Weight: 1900 lbs
Most Important Race: 2d Overall Monte Carlo 1970
Developments: Glass Fiber Fenders; Glass Fiber Hood; Glass Fiber Bumpers; First Ever 915 Gearbox; Lightweight Steel Body
Unique Items: Used Cibie Headlights of a type used in America at the time; REPA seatbelts; WEGU mudflaps; 100 Liter Petrol Tank
(thanks to the Kitchak collection the current owners of the car, for some of the information http://www.toadhallracing.com/toad-022.html )
This car also did, as a werks car:
RAC 1970 Björn Waldegård/Lars Helmer car 16 (DNF gearbox)
1970 ACROPOLIS RALLY WALDEGARD / HELMER car 3 (retired broken con-rod after SS4)
pictures:
monte car 2
RAC car 16
acropolis log book (thanks Thomas)
current
PS check out the differences in the front guards between the Monte and the RAC - I have no reason to believe that they are not the same car.
Raj
the Monte photos are the earliest I have seen. I agree it looks a bit strange with flares at the front but not much at the rear. You would not have wanted wide wheels on the snow at the Monte though.
The photo of Siffert in the car at the Targa seems to show wider flares at the rear, I have always wondered if the video of a tangerine car with white roundels and all wheel arches chopped off that has been posted on this board in a couple of places is of this car - either before or after the photos of Siffert using it
her is one more photo of it at the targa - side on so you cant see much.
That is a great photo of 911 230 0921 Glenn.
It is one from Raj's list that I did not have a photo of
http://www.rennaire.com/
Restoration of
1972-1973 Wili Bartels - 300 km Rennen & ADAC 1000 km Rennen Nurburgring
1973-1980 Porsche Tebernum; Weiskopf - Hockenheim & Zolder
6/8/72 Norisring #8 2nd
13/08/72 Nurnburgring #10
20/8/72 Kassel-Calden #99 DNF
10/9/72 Mainz-Finthen #65
17/6/73 Zolder #139
24/6/73 Norisring #87
12/5/74 Zandvoort #309
15/9/74 Zolder #248
current pix
Glenn
great pics
I believe that this is a period photo of 911 230 1195. Photo taken at 27 May 1973 - Nürburgring (D): Round 7, World Manufacturers Championship, car 49 Anton Fischhaber/Leopold von Bayern Porsche (although it is shown in the records as an RSR)
also attached is some paperwork on 911 230 0987 from when it was for sale some time ago
It is interesting that both have option M491.
I wonder if this is one way to determine whether an ST is a factory build or not. (although I have seen M471 option ST's as well which would also seem to suggest they were a factory build)
Excellent thread guys.....
Stuart Zeh
1970 Waldegaard/Helmer, Austrian Alps Rally
1970 Larrousse/Wood, RAC Rally
1971 Larrousse, Montlhery & Magny Cours
1971 Barth, Montlhery
1971 Barth, Monte Carlo Rally - service vehicle
1971 Barth, Tour de France
1972 Larrousse, Championship of Europe, Nurburgring
1992 D’Agostino, Tour Auto
2001 Lewis/Bouzaglou, Tour Auto
Glenn
do you have details of driver etc for this?
I have a number of pics of that event - maybe??
The records I have show car #8 coming second in the 200 Meilen von Nürnberg, Int. ADAC-Norisring-Rennen (Grand-Tourisme-Wagen Gruppen 3 und 4), on that day but the driver and entrant as Heinz-Jörgen Dahmen (D) in a Porsche 911S.
I thought that Bartels had the car at that time.
Also at that event was what looks like a sister car car #7 entered and driven by Thomas Datzmann (D)
Here is another pic of car #8 on that day, you can just see it behind car #4 (Günter Schulte (D) entered by Hülpert Racing Team who eventually came third) and one of car #7 in the pits and another of the pits on that day.
In the last pic car #29 is listed as an "S" driven by Alfred Kunze (D) and entered by Equipe Liqui Moly and car #21 is listed as a "T" driven and entered by Wilhelm Siegle (D)
Hgo posted some more pictures of car #8 here http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...artels&page=70
back on track....... the third of the 3 1970 Monte cars
model year 1970
Vin 911 030 0003
registration number ST 5706
original use - werks rallye car 1970 Monte Carlo for Åke Andersson/Bo Thorselius; car #11
Engine Size: 2.3 Liter
history:
4th Monte Carlo Rally Jan 16-24 1970
Stuttgart-Solitude-Lyons-Charbonnieres Rally
13th-18th March 1970 Gerard Larrousse car #6
May 28-31 1970 Acropolis Rally
Åke Andersson and Bo Thorszelius car#4, abandon (con-rod)
Nov 13-18 RAC Rally 1970
Åke Andersson car #23 DNF (gearbox)
Photos
Monte car #11
Gerard Larrousse car #6
Acropolis Rally
RAC (x2)
Glenn has already mentioned 911 030 0949.
However these two are linked and there is a degree of controversy about both. There appears to be two 0949's currently and 0950 seems to have disappeared a long time ago. There are a number of threads on these cars on the board.
The factory built two "special" 911S/Ts for 1970, 911 030 0949 and 0950; Within the factory, they were known as "Rallye" cars.
911 030 0949 was originally registered as S-R 2970 and used by the werks in May 1970 in the Alpine Rally, Austria for Waldegaard/Helmer which they won, and then in November 1970 in the RAC Rally for Larrousse/Wood who came 6th.
Its last factory assignment was in the 1971 Monte as a recce car with Bath. It then passed through Louis Meznarie's hands (and driven by Larousse and Bath amongst others) before doing the 1971 Tour de France as car 132 Reg. 4833 0C 91, in psychedelic shell colours similar to the 1970 TdF car (S-U 9370) with which it has been confused.
It then did the Criterium de Cervannes as car 77 in the same colours.
Somewhere along the way two separate cars with this number have come into existence.
photos:
Alpine Rally car #3 ; 1st
RAC Rally: Larrousse/Wood car #30 ; 6th
TdF car 132
Cervannes car 77
what I believe is 0949 at present
I also have some photos of a car from Larrousse's website http://www.gerard-larrousse.com/ which show an orange ST looking car driven by Larrousse at Montlhery and Magny Cours at the same time as Meznarie owned it and Larrousse was driving it (March and April 1971).
I have always assumed it was 911 030 0949, but would like confirmation or otherwise if anyone on the board knows for sure.
Pictures:
Montlhery March 1971
Magny Cours in May 1971 (x2)
This is what I have on 0950
Reg. S-R 2971
1970: 911 ST.
Engine type: 911/02. Number: 630 1281.
Capacity: 2195 cc.
Gearbox: Type 901.
Weight: 789 Kg.
1970:
Feb 11-15 Swedish Rally: Andersen/Torzelius; DNF.
Jul 16-19 Polish Rally: Zasada; 2nd OA.
it seems to have disappeared soon after. I saw one report that it had been wrecked in a rallye practice accident
However I do have photos of a car with registration S-R 2971 in the 1970 TAP rallye (Oct 1- 4) for Waldegård/Thorszelius (car #8), It is not clear if this is the same car or not but it is a narrow car like the one in the swedish rallye and they were a factory driver pairing..............
photos
Swedish Rally: Andersen/Torzelius; car #9
TAP rallye Waldegård/Thorszelius car #8
911 030 0990 not a Werks car but probably made as an ST at the factory as the first pictures of it are with it still on export (Zoll) plates looking like an ST
original registration 428 Z 9361 (zoll plate)
registration LH-36-76 Portugal
first owner Américo Nunes
still in Portugal 2008
Photos
brand new, still on export plates (x2)
competition as LH-36-76
more recent
recent photo in Portugal
200 Meilen von Nürnberg, Int. ADAC-Norisring-Rennen
August 6, 1972
Gruppen 3 - GT 2000
1st - #21 - Wilhelm Siegle(D)/ - 911T - 1991cc - B6
3rd - #29 - Alfred Kunze(D)/Equipe Liqui Moly - 911S - 1991cc - B6
5th - #25 - Pino Logrippo(I)/Inter IAS Team Castrol - 911S - 1991cc - B6
6th - #27 - Ludwig Schoberth(D) - 911T - 1991cc - B6
Gruppen 4 - GT +2000
2nd - #8 - Heinz-Jürgen Dahmen(D) - 911S - 2492cc - B6
3rd - #4 - Günter Schulte(D)/Hülpert Racing Team - 911ST - 2494cc - B6
4th - #9 - Karl-Heinz Gerner(D)/Porsche Club Nürnberg - 911S - 2492cc - B6
5th - #11 - Jürgen Krzikalla(D)/Hülpert Racing Team- 911S - 2492cc - B6
6th - #10 - Hans Grossmann(D)/Motor Club Stuttgart - 911T - 2492cc - B6
7th - #7 - Thomas Datzmann(D) - 911S - 2492cc - B6
9th - #13 - Eugen Kiemele(D) - 911 - 2492cc - B6
from Le Mans Classic 2008
http://img249.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp..._123_565lo.JPG
http://img229.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp...8_123_66lo.JPG
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8893/img1312ne3.jpg
I have another pictures more accurate if it is necessary.
Manu
This photo just popped up on a link from Pelican. Picture was taken during a '72 factory visit.
Attachment 55909
Any tDf info?
Stu
Letter of interest regarding credentials of 911.230.0013
1971,built ,prepared by factory fot works driver Zasada/ Bien for east african safari ;finished 5th overall;reg#S-AA 4427;RACE #19
1972 BACK TO FACTORY;sports dept to be prepared for '72 african rally
1972 private entry by Zasada/Bien crewed by J. Barth;race #12 2nd overall;after sold by Zasada to Barth
autumn 1973 sold by Barth to Buffum
1975,76 NARA championship with Buffum
1975 Buffum runs the cannon ball(on cover of car and driver 8/75
1976 sold by Buffum to Bob Hourihan,Mi. fot ice racing
In a letter from Jurgen Barth;he states" I do believe this to be one of the most historically porsche vehicles built in the 70's
HERE'S SOME PHOTOS OF jOHN bUFFUM RALLYING THE CAR
Hugh,
I have also heard some refer to the '72's as SR's rather than ST's. When the paint on Chassis no. 911 230 0495 was removed with a plastic media, the letters "ST" were written with a marker pen on the bare metal on both doors and on the chassis in the area of the rear shelf. The car has both original doors with the slots for the pull straps. The letters were written before the primer was sprayed onto the car. I will post pictures when available.
Like you I did not know if there was an internal designation of ST in the day. However this supports the fact that some in the factory were calling them ST's at some point during production. Whats your take on this?
Attached are some documents. Note the apparent discrepancy between the two letters. The Barth letter states the car was to be used by the factory. The Spenger letter states the car was sold to an unknown first customer. This is a great thread! Matt
Matt
Matt
Frank has already posted some information on "his" 911 130 0683 safari rallye car so we may as well look at all these three 2.2 rallye "Safari" ST's together.
They were:
911 130 0637; S AA 4826; car #1
911 130 0647; S AA 4825; car #33
911 130 0683; S AA 4827; car #19
Edit may 2009: car #33, S AA 4825 may not be chassis 911 130 0647 even though it has been portrayed as such at a number of auctions in the past 10 years. Brian Long's book and other records show 5 safari cars were constructed, of which 3 were official werks entries and two were practice cars, which were lent to other competitors for the event and that chassis number is not recorded as one of the 5 cars constructed
this is from the Jan B Leuhn site which is selling 911 130 0637.
"For 1971, Porsche restricted their main effort to the African Safari Rally. Three new cars were built specifically for the African event whilst two more were constructed for more traditional events and were mainly used as testing cars.
All retained the standard 180bhp S engine, the Safari cars getting Monte Carlo ratios and suspension raised to its highest level for maximum ground clearance and spring travel. Weighing 980kg (20kg more than before) all three Works-Safari-spec cars encountered problems en route. Porsche's best placed finisher was Zasada in fifth, Waldegaard crashing and Andersson being forced out with broken rear suspension."
happily all three are still around today.
photos of all three together
911 130 0637
werks constructed Coupè "Safari" 2.2
registered S AA 4826
first event 1971 Safari rallye, Åke Andersson/Bo Thorszelius car#1 DNF (suspension)
currently for sale in Germany
pictures:
2 from 1971
2 from now
911 130 0647
Edit May 2009: car #33, S AA 4825 may not be chassis 911 130 0647 even though it has been portrayed as such at a number of auctions in the past 10 years. Brian Long's book and other records show 5 safari cars were constructed, of which 3 were official werks entries and two were practice cars, which were lent to other competitors for the event and that chassis number is not recorded as one of the 5 cars constructed
werks constructed Coupè "Safari" 2.2
registered S AA 4825
first event 1971 Safari rallye Björn Waldegård/Lars Helmer car #33 DNF (crash)
recently restored back to safari livery in USA
subject of a couple of threads on this board (was the blue car sold at Christies a year or so ago)
does anyone else know of significant competition history for this car?
photos
3 at safari
1 while blue
1 at rennsport 2007
Frank has already posted details of this car and pictures from 1971 safari as car 19 and from Buffum period
here are a couple more pics from the 1972 safari where it was car #12 where it was second overall (Sobieslaw Zasada/Marien Bien) and a couple from "downtime" in Germany at that time - i think while owned by Bath - (Frank can you confirm or otherwise?)
Matt
that is great information abouit the marker pen notations. It would appear that both "ST" and "SR" were internal designations however I am yet to establish whether there was anything more formal. Certainly there were not different Vin numbers to distinguish such cars. However I suspect that there may have been internal "order numbers" or "order codes" that could be used to distinguish such cars.
This was certainly the case with "production cars" including the RS from 1970 onwards.
From that time there was a 6 number code: first 3 the model type (911 for 911) plus 3 separate numbers one for the body type, one for the engine type and one for the transmission type.
the body type ones were
1 T Coupe
2 T Targa
3 E Coupe
4 E Targa
5 S coupe
6 S Targa
7 Carrera Coupe
8 Carrera Targa
the engine ones were
1 T
2 E
3 S
4 Carrera
5 Turbo
and the transmission ones
1 4 Speed
4 5 Speed
5 Sportomatic
so a 911S coupe 5 speed would be 911 534 and a RS would be 911 744.
Taking this a step further if a 911T coupe with an S engine and 5 speed was ordered (if there was ever such an order allowed) would be 911 134.
Then if such a car was given, say, an M491 option it would probably be easily distinguished internally - but not externally unless you had the order sheet or build sheet.
I had read somewhere that the original use of the "ST" designation may have been take advantage of homologation anomalies - with the T a lighter car and the S engine more powerful. That certainly was said to be the case in the late 1960's with some of the rally cars and the T/R's etc. maybe the homologation papers for this period will provide such answers.
your letters show that you cant even really trust what you get in black and white from the factory :) so a lot of research needs to going into any authentication of a car such as 911 230 0495
Just put together at the factory waiting for its new owner
back to 1970 cars
Not sure about this one.
It was advertised for sale in Europe in 2002 as "only 3 owners from new, all original documentation" for what was a significant price for the time (136,000 euro).
I have not seen any authenticating documentation or anything but the pictures below.
Therefore if it is a "real" ST there is not enough info to tell if it was factory or customer produced.
does anyone on the board know it?
here is another one recently for sale at Jan B. Lühn in Germany
this was their description of it:
1970 Porsche 911 2.3 S/T Chassis No. 911 030 1014
"Specific history of this car: Due to the Porsche built sheets, the specific car has been delivered new as a 911 S/T in early 1970 to the Stuttgart based Porsche dealer Fa. Hahn.
The car has been built to the following specification:
- color code 2626 (condagrün) - Recaro leather seats in black - Antenna to the left - Loudspeakers - Tinted windows - Roll bar - Electrical sliding roof
It is believed that this is the only 911 S/T with a sunroof, thus the name “Sunroof S/T” under which this car is known among Porsche enthusiasts.
The older FIA papers do confirm that the first owner, A. Aarne Wihuri from Finland, privately entered the car at the 1.000 km race at the Nürburgring in May 1970 (probably under the name of Sportwagen Hahn). Later the car remained in Germany and has been owned successively by the company Bühl (1972 - ‘86), by a Mr Arzberger (‘87 - ‘89), by a Mr Klose (‘89 - ‘90), by the company Methusalem, Cologne (‘90 - ‘98) and by Mr Otto Westphal (‘98 - 2006), a well known name in historic racing. "
and "During the restoration a common period feature has been added to the car, the 911 does now have the original, wider wheel arches to the front and rear, in order to house wider wheels."
again this one was the subject of a thread here recently.
information on this car from toad hall racing website http://www.toadhallracing.com/oppenh...e%20911st.html
Porsche 1970 911 ST 911.030.1138
Engine number : 614083
Engine Size 2494 CC
Horsepower 275 @ 8000
Weight 930 Kg -2046 Lbs
History
March 1970 Delivery from the Porsche factory via MAHAG Munich, main Porsche dealer for Bavaria, to Autohaus Krauss, official Porsche dealer in Nuremberg.
Built as one of 20 pure Porsche Factory Lightweight 911 Race Cars
April 1970 Sold new to Mans Braun, Mercedes-Benz dealer in Nuremberg and amateur race driver
1970 / 1971 Participation in various mountain and track races under Hans Braun in Germany: Norisring, Mainz-Finthen Airfield, Robfeld, Niederstetten, Neumarkt - Juraberg
Winter 1971 / 1972 sold via Porsche - Herbst, Nuremberg, to Ludwig Hornauer, businessman in Bamberg and amateur racing driver
1972 / 1973 participation in various mountain and track races under Ludwig Hornauer in Germany: Ellerberg, Stadtsteinach, Giebelstadt, 300 km Nurburgring, Salsburgring GT race later some drag racing against members of US forces in Ramstein, wins on a displacement handicap basis
1974 sold to Manfred Grundmann, car dealer in Gochsheim near Schweinfurt
1977 was registered under the name of Harald Metzner, Bamberg, as it seems only for tax reasons
October 15, 1978 sold to Reinhold Muller, Schweinfurt
March 21, 1979 sold to Karl Schmitt, Sassanfahrt
August 21, 1989 sold to Frans Georg Dopper
1990 - 1992 underwent extensive restoration
1993 - 1999 Extensively raced by Georg Dopper in various U.S. Historic racing events
1999 Sold to Charles Arnott of Easton, Maryland Raced by Arnott at Moroso Speedway, Florida. Engine fully rebuild by Klub Sport, West Palm Beach, Florida.
2000 Entered, accepted and raced in the Targa Florio Historic Race, Sicily, Italy. Set second fastest time in class.
2001 Entered, accepted and raced in the Tour de France (Tour Auto Historic Race). Finished 11th overall, 5th in group and second fastest of all the Porsches. Top placed American entrant.
911 030 1263
This 1970 Porsche 911S, chassis #911 030 1263, was the 1972 IMSA Camel GT Championship car. Hurley Haywood won the Camel GT Championship in it.
I believe that this car was built up at Brumos using a regular production car and an ST kit from the factory.
Can anyone confirm that and does anyone else have any other information on it?
added a photo from daytona Presidental 250 November 1972
i understand that this car had a continuous racing history up to the mid 1980's
later edit
John Starkey in post #70 later in this thread has identified this as an original factory built ST
Full details on that post but here is the summary
"The Brumos car was originally an "Austrian" S/T rally car, delivered to Porsche Salzburg, Austria. See below for full history:
Chassis No: 911 030 1263
1970 911 S/T.
Engine type: 911/02
Gearbox type: 901.
Weight: 980 Kg.
Delivered: 12/69
Color: Blood orange.
PH-Salzburg."
911 030 1558
don't know much about this one
someone on the board should as it is in the USA
The only information I have on it is was originally delivered to France as a very quick street car; some club races in France.
still in narrow body form - unusual for a ST these days:)
911 030 1715 - finally an "Australian" car
The only RHD track ST
Western Australian registration XBC 121
Nick Moss has lots of information and pictures here http://www.early911.co.uk/historic/html/1970_st.html
My understanding is that this car was delivered from the factory as an ST - not constructed by a dealer or team.
The following information taken from when it was listed for auction at coys in the UK a couple of years ago
"its continuous and competitive racing from 1970 right through until 1978 it saw podium finishes in 100 races out of a total of 132 and 41 first places and a number of championship wins. Not only the most successful Australian competition Porsche, but certainly a contender for the most successful racing Porsche in the world"
"The cars racing career started in 1971 when it was sold new to New Zealander Ray Thackwell. Like many Kiwi privateers, he was virtually unknown to the outside, but had competed successfully in Formula 2 in Europe in the 1960s, racing under the Kiwi Equipe banner. With Thackwell at the wheel the 911 was almost unbeatable, winning 16 races outright from 21 starts, against state and national competition. The major victory that year was the 'Wanneroo' 6 Hour, a 6 hour endurance race competed by a large field from Western Australia, interstate and overseas, including a Lola T70. This event was the highlight of the Western Australian motor racing calendar."
"1972 was also a very successful year, with 12 outright victories from 17 starts, including another victory in the 'Wanneroo' 6 Hour, making it the only vehicle ever to have won the event twice."
"Following a restoration of the car to its original form in the UK, the car has proven popular and successful in many European events, performing a display as part of the Slowly Sideways group, including; The Rally of the Lakes, Killarney, Ireland 2002, 2003. The Eiffel Classic Rally, Germany 2003, 2004 and the Isle of Bute Historic Festival, Scotland 2003 and Goodwood Festival of Speed 2006.
Chassis number 911 030 1715, left the factory with a limited slip differential, lightweight interior, roll bar, and tinted front windscreen. Like all S/T's, all the bolt on panels were lightweight fibreglass, sometimes the rear wings were either steel or aluminium."
Pictures
In WA in the 1970's
recent ones in europe (x2)
the last 1970 car I have on my list 911 030 1127 the famous ultralightweight ST for Larrousse in the 1970 Tour de France
911 030 1127
registered S U 9370
Werks built special lightweight 2.4ST
reputed weight 789kg versus homologation weight 840kg
most famous for 1970 Tour de France: Larrousse/Gelin; 2nd.
current existence unknown
More photos of african safari rally 911 st with zasada driving in the rally
maybe the same
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3395/...4be18c3de9.jpg
Hi Frank
I know that you own the car (911 130 0683) but are you sure that these two pictures of the car with registration 857 Z 9684 are of that car?
I have other pictures of a car looking remarkably similar, and with the same plates being driven by Zasada in the 1974 London-Kano-Munich world cup rally - attached.
It looks like a regular RS entered by Autofarm UK and was listed on the entry list as an "RS"
Interesting...I see that the worker in charge of putting the "world champion" decals on the lower right of the windshield was doing his job on the Tour De France car.
that is the list of 1970 MY cars I have recorded.
in summary:
there are 5 cars that I think are Werks constructed and campaigned
911 030 0001
911 030 0002
911 030 0003
911 030 0949
911 030 0950
a further 5 cars that I am fairly confident were Werks constructed for customers
911 030 0990
911 030 1014
911 030 1127
911 030 1138
911 030 1715
a further car that was probably factory delivered as an ST
911 030 1558
one that I am confident was customer constructed from a werks kit
911 030 1263
and one I am not sure about
911 030 0993
However I have pictures of some other cars that can only be 1970 MY that I don't have numbers for
maybe someone on the board can fill in the details
the first one is car 79 at the 1970 ADAC 1000 km-Rennen Nürburgring (31.5.1970) entered by Racing Team AAW (D) and driven by Dieter Fröhlich (D)/Pauli Toivonen (SF) to 14th place but 1st in GT+2.0 (7 laps behind the winner).
This was one of a number of 911S's in this race in GT+2.0 suggesting that all might have been factory ST's, or at least group 3 or 4 cars constructed by teams such as Kremer.
The next car I have a picture of and think may be a factory ST (and may be a 71MY car) is (i think) a Spanish rallye car still with zoll plates (428 Z 9869) in a rallye in November 1970 (Ruiz Jimenez al cuarto Rallye Firestone-Picos de Europa Porsche 911 S, Alberto Ruiz-Gimenez - Ricardo Muñoz, Rally 2000 virajes ). (One photo shows what looks like 2 identical cars)
does anyone on the board have details of these cars? I am certain that the first one still exists and I would be surprised if the second one did not.
Hello
Hugh, I think you already know the car of foto: 1970 Nurburgring 31.5.70 entered Racing Team AAW (D)...
And you wrote chassis 911 030 1014 - FIA paper: owner A Aarnio Wihuri Finland entered same competition...
Gues: Same owner AAW = Antti Aarnio Wihuri= Racing Team AAW, I think it is same car (or same teams car, if Antti Aarnio Wihuri drove himself on that competition). Pauli Tovonen, Hans Laine, Leo Kinnunen and many other drivers drove by AAW racing cars. AAW was very close with factory many years. They took cars from factory to european competitions.
Start list Nurburgring?
AAW had also fast green rally 911 -72? driven by Leo Kinnunen
And more: Giulio Pucci/Dieter Schmidt had same looking 911 nr 40 in TF -71?
hopo
Hi Hopo
I "think" it may be the same car. AAW certainly had lots of cars, 917's 917-10's 908's etc.
I did look at the entry list and there is no other obvious AAW entry for a 911S. It certainly would not have been Kremer, Haldi etc
They did have one for a 917 and a 908/02 entered though - neither started the race due to a very sad event.
The 908 originally was to be driven by Gijs van Lennep (NL) and Hans Laine (SF) did not start due to the fatal accident in practice (where Laine was killed) and the 917 originally to be driven by Pauli Toivonen (SF) and Sten Axelsson (S) was withdrawn, probably due to the 908's accident (although Toivonen then co-drove the ST #79 with Dieter Fröhlich )
however I have a couple of pictures of that car in the race and i cant make out the sunroof that should be on the car if it is 911 030 1014. Granted the angle to do so is poor so it might be there. I was really wanting to make certain if possible before allocating a chassis number to it on the board.
on the TF 1971 car #40 that was a red car entered by strahle (and wearing the famous WN V2 plates). Given that it was a strahle car i doubt very much if it had been a AAW car at a similar time.
I will post a pic of it on the targa thread as it has a central oil cooler in the front spoiler in that 1971 race - the issue Raj has been debating on that thread.
Larousse super lightweight-Roy Walzer, Goshen, Ct
Monte Carlo Rally Car-Peter Hoffmann-Saarbrucken Germany
The yellow car shown (139) looks to me like it definitely raced at night; there appears to be a map light with a long flexible neck installed on the passenger side. As for a light next to the drivers headlight, I'm not so sure... my eye says that's a pull switch for the battery or fire system, though it's obviously not marked as such.
Hello Hugh
Yes I saw now red car coloured. Diferent colour, only same painting style in hood.
Here is green one -72 and I think it is AAW car, used safety car now but I think it was also used competition use?
http://koti.armas.fi/~srt/000%20aaw%20-72%20green.jpg
Look at beside driver side lamp...
hopo
HI Hopo
that is a very good call on the green car maybe being the AAW car
I have never been able to identify it but you may be correct
Hi raj
the thing next to the light is definitely a battery / electrical cutoff
here is a close up
Brad
the lights are because it was a rallye car (for tour de france) and the light was needed for the navigator to read the pace notes on the night stages
How would a light that small on the fender be beneficial? What type of light was it?
Stu
Hi Jim
It is definitely NOT the same car - and its existence and colour scheme have been a source of confusion for some time
the 71 car was owned by Meznarie and built by him - supposedly from the ST 911 030 0949.
there is some history further up this post on that car
HOWEVER
there is still conjecture and debate today whether this was really built from 0949 - a factory rally car- or was built up on a spare shell or on another car.
To further complicated this, as the post shows above, there are currently 2 cars that claim to be 0949.
this is one of the murkier areas of the history of these cars
Raj
according to Frere
the 85 x66 2247cc cars were 911/22
the 87.5 x 66 2380 cc cars were 911/21 and
the 86.7 x 70.4 2494 cars were 911 / 70
he has all of those as 1970 "racing" engines
however elsewhere he also says the following:
1970 911S-2.2 "rallye" 2195cc 84x66 9.8cr 180hp rallye version of 2.2 - so probably same type number as a "S" with rallye mods like the rallye kit 1 and 2. Used for rallies incl Monte, Swedish, Austrian, RAC etc - so probably most or all the cars on the list shown as factory rally cars - at least while they were being used for that purpose.
1970 911S 2.3 2247 85 x 66 10.3CR 240BHP - circuit racing version. 1mm larger bore twin electric fuel pumps. this must be 911/22
1970 911S 2.4 "proto" 2395cc 85x 70.4 10.3 CR 260BHP special build for the 1970 TdF car twin webbers transistor ignition. I don't think I have seen an engine type number for this.
I am not sure if I have the information needed to put engine number sequences against race engine type numbers - I think it is available but I am not sure if I have it here in any form, at least on a comprehensive basis.
I will have a look though and post later if I can find anything. someone else may have it to hand.
I don't have many of the engine numbers of these cars on my database and i suspect that most, if not all, of the serious teams would pick and chose from a stable of 3 or 4 engines for a car at any one time. Therefore, apart from the info about the engine the car left the factory with, it may not relate to how they were raced.
time to start on some 1971 cars
This is an unusual one and one that highlights the complexity and difficulty of creating a list of "real ST's". All I know about it is here and from an ad when being sold a a little while ago. Some board members might know some more about the car.
Definitely not a factory car. This is claimed to be a Kremer built one - as they did for most of the cars they ran - but if the story is correct it is as much an ST as any other one. One interesting thing is it was not built from an S like the factory cars. However the car is billed as a 71 and it says that it was built from a T but the chassis number says otherwise. It is for a 71 E - probably not the car I would have thought they would have started from.
this is from the ad
" PORSCHE KREMER 911 ST 2.5 (1971),Vin # 911 120 0497. Built by the Kremer Bros. in 1971/72.
The car was built on a normal 911 T road car. Kremer ordered the 911 ST kit from Porsche direct. This was possible in this days.
Manfred Kremer built up the 911 S 2.5 liter on the 911T crankcase. Car comes with new FIA paperwork. Original engine is not anymore in the car.It now has a 3.0 Carrera engine with 210 hp. Car can be delivered in the original PORSCHE-KREMER livery. Weight: 960 kg.
In the hands of Erwin Kremer, Paul Keller,Willi Kauhsen, Baron von Wendt and Clemens Schickentanz the car takes part in the European GT Championship in 1971 and 1972. Car was in a private collection in Germany from 1973 till 2002 and was not raced.
Ìn the most recent years the car was driven in such venues as: Tour de France Auto, Tour de Espagna (Tour of Spain), Tropheo Baleares( Mallorca Spain), Oldtimer Grand Prix Nürburgring, Hockenheim 500 Kilometer Rennen, Rally San Remo Historico, Rally Monte Carlo Historique. This car is street legal in the USA."
Does it fit on this list or not?
comments.............?
Gib you may be interested in the under the front bonnet shot - what is there.......... and what is not .
this is a werks one, and one with a great history :)
chassis #911 130 0565
original registration SZ-7941
engine #6310962
engine Type 2.2S 911/02 but 2380 cc barrels and pistons
it is easiest to use the material John Starkey had when he had it for sale in 2007. Nick Moss also has a lot of material on its restoration at his site here http://www.early911.co.uk/historic/html/1971_st.html
"We are pleased to offer today an incredibly rare "Works"-entered Porsche 911S/T. Entered for Bjorn Waldegard in 1971 in the World Rally Championship with the following results:
History of 911S/T Reg. SZ-7941 Chassis Number 911 130 0565. Color Orange
1971 Rally Sweden: Driver - Bjorn Waldegard; finished 4th.
1971 Rally GB RAC: Driver - Bjorn Waldegard; finished 2nd.
In 1972, 0565 was used to do the ice pace notes on the Monte Carlo Rally with drivers Jurgen Barth and Stig Blomqvist.
In April 1972 it was imported to England, it then had five owners (the present owner has copies of the logbooks); he bought the car in 2000 and restored it completely.
Spec:
The engine is a 2.2S 911/02 type engine number 6310962 with 2380 cc barrels and pistons and single spark ignition set up. SS heat exchangers and competition silencer, 202 horsepower.
Gearbox:
Push clutch 911 type with ZF LSD with short gearing. There is also a spare with long gearing.
Wheels:
2 x 7-15 Minilites
2 x 8-15 Minilites
2 x 9-15 Minilites
3 x 7-15 Fuchs 7R type
Brakes:
Alloy calipers front, steel calipers rear.
Fuel tank:
Center fill 100 liter.
Oil cooler and pipes as original 2.2S.
Suspension:
Bilstein back and front.
The body shell is all steel except the engine lid and number plate panel, which are aluminum.
The front and rear wings are genuine ST.
There are four Pallas spotlights two on the wings and two on the bonnet.
The seats are genuine ST, they were recovered with material from Porsche.
Four point rollcage with original fixings.
It has a metal case Halda with Heuer clock and stopwatch.
The car was restored with information and photos supplied by Porsche and these are included in the sale package"
Photos
1971 Rally Sweden car #3 (b&w)
1971 Rally GB RAC x2 again car #3
current x2
Hello Hugh.
Excellent thread!
The Brumos car was originally an "Austrian" S/T rally car, delivered to Porsche Salzburg, Austria. See below for full history:
John Starkey
Chassis No: 911 030 1263
1970 911 S/T.
Engine type: 911/02
Gearbox type: 901.
Weight: 980 Kg.
Delivered: 12/69
Color: Blood orange.
PH-Salzburg.
Rallied
1970
22-30/05: Semperit rally: DNF. (Acc.)
29/07-01: Donau-Poland rally: 1st.
1971: Sold to Peter Gregg, Brumos. USA.
04/12: Texas: Gregg/Haywood, #59; 2nd/1st in class.
1972:
09/07: Mid-Ohio: Haywood/S. Posey, #59; 2nd/2nd.
05/08: Talladega: Haywood, #59; 6th/1st.
10/09: Watkins Glen: Gregg/Haywood, #59; 1st/1st.
24/09: Bryar: Gregg, #59; DNF.
19/11: Daytona: Gregg, #59; DNF.
1972 IMSA Championship winner with Hurley Haywood.
1973: Feb: Sold to George Dyer.
??/3: Riverside SCCA: Dyer; 1st.
Rebuilt by Dennis Aase, CA.
04/7: Daytona: Dyer; 44th NR.
15/7: Mid-Ohio: Dyer, #30; 25th.
Sold to Paul Spruell.
1974:
21/4: Road Atlanta: P. Spruell,/B. Bean, #6; 22nd/4th.
04/7: Daytona: P. Spruell/B. Bean, #16; 2nd.
1/12: Daytona: P. Spruell, #19; 20th/7th.
1975:
1-2/2: Daytona 24-Hours: P.Spruell/B. Bean, #38; 48th NR.
21/3: Sebring 12-Hours:
1976:
31/1-1/2: Daytona 24-Hours: B. Bean, #31; 65th NR.
04/7: Daytona: J. Ansley/Bean, #22; 26th.
End of 1976: Sold to Terry Wolters from Paul Spruell.
1977:
19/3: Sebring 12-Hours: T. Wolters/L.P. Pleasant, #08; 33rd.
15/5: Mid-America: T. Wolters, #08; 14th/6th.
04/7: Daytona: T. Wolters, #08; 22nd/8th.
27/11: Daytona: T. Wolters/J. Swanson, #98; 15th/5th.
1978:
4-5/2: Daytona 24-Hours: T. Wolters/R. Mummery/J. Refenning, #08; 14th/3rd.
18/3: Sebring 12-Hours: T. Wolters/W. Miller, #08; 35th/17th.
26/11: Daytona: T. Wolters/W. Miller, #08; 54th NR.
1979:
3-4/2: Daytona 24-Hours: T. Wolters/N. Northam/ R.Weiss, #08; 21st/9th.
17/3: Sebring 12-Hours: T. Wolters/B. Buchler/N. Northam, #08; 21st/5th.
04/7: Daytona: T. Wolters/N. Northam, #08; 34th NR.
25/11: Daytona: T. Wolters/M.L. Speer, #08; 31st/9th.
1980: Rear section removed, tube framed. Ran in B Production.
2-3/2: Daytona 24-Hours: T. Wolters/M.L. Speer/ R. Ratcliff,#08; 18th/6th.
22/3: Sebring 12-Hours: T. Wolters/M.L. Speer/R. Ratcliff, #08; 35th NR.
04/7: Daytona: T. Wolters/R. Tilton, #08; 24th/8th.
30/11: Daytona: R. Ratcliff /M.L. Speer, #08; 22nd/6th.
1981:
2.7 liter engine fitted, raced in SCCA “B” production by T. Wolters. 2nd in the S.E. Division.
1982: Sold to Michael Schafer. Jack Refenning-901 shop in Pompano-Now in . 561 781 2944. 2.8 liters.
1982:
29/01: Daytona 24 Hours: A. Howes/P. Nacthway/O. Jones, #08; DNF.
10/01: Sebring SCCA: Schafer; DNF. (front seal).
16/01: PBIR: Schafer; DNF. (Engine).
24/04: PBIR: Schafer; DNF. (flywheel).
29/05: Roebling Road: Schafer; RU.
12/6: Sebring: Schafer; RU.
16/10: Sebring: Schafer; RU.
1983:
05-06/02: Daytona 24-Hours: M. Schaeffer/Zitza/Reffening, #90; 14thOA/2nd in GTU class.
01/5: Moroso T.A.: Schafer; RU.
29/5: Roebling Road: Schafer; RU.
1984:
04-05/2: Daytona 24-Hours: M. Schafer/N. Nicholson/J. Andretti/J. Refenning, #90;43rd NR. (Eng.)
12/05: Moroso: Schafer; RU.
17/05: Sold to Drew Slayton. Tube framed front and rear by Dave Klym.
19/05: Sebring: Schafer; RU.
14/08: Daytona: Schafer; RU.
25/08: CMS Drivers school: Slayton.
1986:
21/6: Atlanta: Slayton; RU.
19/7: Charlotte: Slayton; RU.
30/8: Atlanta: Slayton; RU.
05/9: Atlanta: Slayton; RU.
1990: Sold to the Collier Collection.
?: Sold to Lothar Hoess.
1994: Restored by Jim Weber.
Sold to Phil Bagley.
2001: Sold to Brumos Collection.
Ginther Le Mans car
For Sale
Hi John
I appreciate you sharing your knowledge on this
thanks for providing the information on 911 030 1263. I have gone back and edited my post on the car and referenced it across to your post as well as adding the main detail
Hopefully we can do that for some others to create a really comprehensive list using the diverse contacts and knowledge of this board
An update: the Ginther ST was restored to race day livery for RRIII.
Glen
Just in case the words in that for sale link are lost here is some of the background of the car (originally, I think, from a Bruce Anderson Excellence magazine article ) from the time it was with Dave Morse.
(I see some of this was picked up in the ad you linked to and also in the Canepa design website where I think it was really for sale)
"The significance of Dave Morse’s 911ST was that it was the first of what became a number of Porsches that were purchased by Americans prepared and then taken back to Europe to race, mostly at Le Mans. Richie Ginther Racing's All American was an entry at Le Mans in 1971 with Alan Johnson and Elliott Forbes-Robinson as their drivers. Ginther called his 911 ST Sloopy Jr. and Sloop ran with a 2.4 engine configuration in the 1971 Le Mans race. Ginther was a master at getting a little more out of production Porsches because he had been preparing 911s and 914s for SCCA racing here in the US for a few years before their 1971 Le Mans effort. As a result he had some tricks for the 911 that they hadn’t seen in production based race cars Europe before.
Ginther replaced the rubber suspension bushings with Teflon suspension bushings of their own manufacture which offered more precise suspension alignment. They also used stiffer torsion bars which improved the cars handling. Harold Broughton who did the engines for Ginther prepared the engine for their Le Mans effort. Their efforts paid off for they were the fastest qualifier in the Group 4 GT class and the fastest of 20 GT Porsches entered.
While this cars Le Mans debut was not auspicious because the car went out with a broken connecting rod in the eighth hour of the race because of an oil line problem early in the race, it was significant because it was the start of a trend that many American teams were to follow.
The Ginther 911ST was sold to Bill Yates, a California Porsche dealer who competed with the car in Porsche club events and continued through the years to modify the car to keep it competitive. Fortunately as the car was modified over the years Bill Yates kept all of the original parts, so that when Dave Morse purchased the car from Yates in 1993 it made it much easier for the Morspeed crew to restore the car to its original configuration.
Morspeed did the engine and transmission for Dave Morse’s 911 ST. In fact the engine was assembled in one of our engine overhaul classes that we hold at Jerry Woods Enterprises.
Dave Morse and Ron Gruener and the rest of the Morspeed crew extensively researched the car and then performed the comprehensive restoration that was completed just in time for the 1997 Monterey Pre-Historics. The car tested well at the Pre-Historics and a week later it became the first 911 to participate in the Monterey Historics. "
This car was also the subject of a couple of threads here as it was being freshened up prior to RRIII and Harvey has just posted pics of that as well.
A coupe of historical pics are attached (there are lots of current ones on the board)
the first one is a rare one at the Le Mans TEST in April 1971 where it was car #42 not the well recognized car # 34.
911 130 0721 was sold by autofarm a few years ago
this is from the information they posted at the time
"Chassis No. 911 130 0721
Engine Size 2466
Colour Light Ivory
Interior M471 Sport
• Completed Coppa Intereuropa at Monza 1000kms 1971, 17th overall Targa Florio 1972, 12th overall and 1st Special GT, Targa Florio 1973 as well as many other period events from 1971-75
• Short-stroke 2.5 litre engine to the full 275bhp Type 911/73 1972 race spec with high butterfly mechanical injection (hardly run in!)
• Factory supplied in early 1971 to full Group 4 M491 Race spec'
• Finely and completely restored from 1991-3 with only limited mileage since. Maintained by us irrespective of cost
• Comes with 8J and 10J x 15" Minilite wheels + new Historic Race tyres, 10,000 Tacho + all other correct period suspension, fuel system, interior, electrics etc,.
• FIA papers. Ideal for top flight international Historic motorsport
• Huge history files
photos
1 current (when sold)
rest are period
an extra photo or two
at the targa in 1972
and the engine compartment when it was being sold
Hello Raj,
Since you asked...
You make a good point, a point that I have debated for years about the 914/6R (914/6 GT).
First it is important to understand the culture at Porsche and the Homologation rules of the FIA back in the 1970’s, other factors involve Porsche Dealers and Tuners of the era.
It is fact (as you point out) that Porsche prepared 911s for racing in the Grand-Tourisme classification of the FIA, cars were prepared for both factory supported teams and customers. However the goal of Porsche was more oriented towards selling cars and winning races. In the case of the 911 and the 914/6 (under FIA rules) 500 examples must be completed before the model was accepted as GT legal. Porsche produced cars with light-weight parts as well as engine and transmission enhancements as a blueprint for competitors, then an instruction manual and parts book were issued to allow customers to build the car to the level of competitiveness they desired or in some cases what they could afford. As a customer oriented company they provided cars with varying levels of competitive readiness, i.e. M-471, M-491 packages.
In the case of the Richie Ginther’s 1971 Le Mans 911S, I cannot provide factory documentation illustrating the level of finish this car was delivered with but I can tell you that in 1970 Porsche enlisted his expertise to engineer a competitive C-Production solution for the Sport Car Club of America (SCCA) in the form of the 914/6 Ginther Roadster. I can also provide (as example) the names of dealers/tuners such as Max Moritz, Brumos, MAHAG and Kremer as those who bought samples of the full race prepared cars and duplicated or in some cases enhanced the original design.
I have created four categories of classification (in my opinion):
1) Factory prepared cars for factory use.
2) Factory prepared cars for customer use.
3) Dealer/Tuner prepared cars
4) Customer prepared cars for racing purpose.
Category three and four requires 1970s era race history and photographic documentation.
My last point is that factory built is not the only factor to consider when listing these cars, I would consider a customer built car with a successful race history more desirable than a factory built car without race history.
:D
Ginther car DNF, motor went out in the 8th hour
Raj,
Thanks for your kind words and thanks for starting this awesome thread!
I thank you, Hugh and others for sharing their knowledge about these great cars!
Lets discuss your 914/6 GT in a more appropriate place:
Roadglue
Hugh and all,
thankyou for starting a fantasic thread, St's have been a passion for me for the past 5 years and it is great to see lots of new photos popping up.
Hugh, seeing you mentioned the aussie ST, I thought I'd ask if you new any of the history of Bill Browns car?
When Jim McKeown came to watch our yellow ST replica race in the Historic touring car series he reminiced about the battles he had in his Shell sponsored 69S against Bill Brown in his Red 1970 911. He was very proud to tell us that Bill, having a "Factory built" car still couldn't beat his locally prepared car. They both competed in The 1970 Australian touring car Championship with Jim finishing Second overall (beating quite a few mustangs and camaros) and Bill Brown Seventh.
Attachment 56555
It certainly looks like a factory ST, has the half cage, the correct looking flares on the guards and is LHD where all the other Porsches that raced here were RHD.
Awesome thread!!!!
Hi Dave
I really don't know about the Bill Brown car. He had some awesome machinery at that time and as you said it was LHD. However I have no proof one way or the other as to whether it was a real "factory built" ST or one made up . It certainly looked the part.
I have no records of its numbers and have no real idea of where to start on this one.
Jim McKeown's comments are very interesting in this regards however.
it does not feature in Australian ordered cars like the thackwell one, but obviously private imports for racing purposes existed at the time.
here are a couple of extra pics - I notice that it was sponsored by Scuds in sydney - Dennis do you or Mark G know?
Hi All
A great st thread,i have a big passion for the st,and did own 0721 ivory white st for 4 years and competed with it.I also built a exact copy to race and throw about ,rather than wreck the original.The original car was quite unique with many special chassis mods and was a correct lwt thin steeled body with plastic front fenders.It finished first in class and 12th over all in the 73 targa and 17th overall in the 72 targa.
The car was actually supplied new with no engine,and in period was fitted with a 2.3,a 2.5 and even a 2.8.It did have a factory official designation st and was chalked on the steel dash support along with the production number.
0497 was a interesting car that i test drove with a view to buying ,to turn into my copy car,but withdrew from the deal.There was no mention of the kremers building the car,but a German race driver had it built by a local company to him ,It was certainly no ST.
0949 or one of them was for sale in the uk a few years ago,the advert stating that this car had taken on the id of the famous car!I may even be able to find the advert some time.
The photos of the red aussie car looks great,nice to see some more period race photos.
It is really hard to tell which is correct and which is not,as not many st were actually the same,different variations on arches,front bumpers,roll cages,electric cut outs and lights etc Some st even had ali front wings,bumpers and doors.
I did look at a few 911st before i purchased my car,the detail differences were quite surprising.
Interestingly the rsr at the rennsport reunion, that was a st and then converted to a rsr prototype by the factory.This car had been in England for some time and was purchased directly from the factory.It resembled the closest chassis and special mods as to my car,a lot of people around the car saying it was not a correct car was quite funny.
A good friend also owned the yellow st that was said to be the camera car for the lemans film,this car was different again,but did have a lwt body.A great car,of which we had good fun at the Leipzig factory test track with both cars being driven as intended.
The rhd aussie car that was in a couple of auctions in the uk and for sale for a long time,i had inspected the car at the auction for a another friend to buy,we passed on it for varying reasons.
Keep this thread going,i will see if i can work out how to put some photos up for you some time.:)
Regards
Hi
The mongrel car as you call it,i thought was a real good and interesting car.
I bumped into Josh looking over the car also.We had a good discussion over your car and mine.The rally style re-enforced jacking point, was identical to mine.The thin roof steel and front arches were also the same,not sure from memory if your car had the re-enforced inner front fender,like a double skin from the front bulk head panel to the strut top.I have photos of mine and will post when my son returns to show me how to put photos up.
The front inner fenders or wings as we call it,were factory made as the panel fitted underneath the panel that the chassis number by the fuel tank is.
This could only be done during production,the car also had thin gauge steel doors,scuttle panel etc.The rear arches had been stretched after the factory,to make room for 10inch wide minilights.
The car spent nearly all its life in southern Italy and was in fantastic original condition,with a sensitive documented restoration also in souther Italy.
The strahle car had also come to England about 2 years ago,nice car ,but very new with a great restoration done by Freisinger.I think its still on there web site as a restoration project.
The strahle link,and then image gallery for the photos.
http://www.freisinger-motorsport.de/...ssic_911s.html
great thread , keep it coming !! on to the 72 year??? who could tell me if Brumos Porsche ever ran a s/t in there famous colours
Raj posted a list what is supposed to be the factory built ST's in the 1972 Model year. It is reproduced on page 1 of this thread. Even if it is not the full list of 1972 cars it is much more than seems to be available for the 1970 or 1971 MY.
the list details 31 cars, most with a "662 xxxx" engine number shown against them.
I have some details of, or photos for, 13 of them, now including 0921 posted by Glenn in this thread (thanks Glenn), and details on a couple of others that claim to be 1972 ST's.
Obviously this does not cover cars built or converted with factory kits by race teams or privateers. I have not identified any of these as Kremer cars or any campaigned from new by the other well known teams - although some may be there.
I will try to work through them but I will first post this one (911 230 0013) which is not on the list but has factory documentation that suggests it may be a "prototype for the 2.2 ST"
911 230 0013 engine 632 0023
This is from when it was for sale at elevenparts in Europe some years ago
"1972, Porsche 911 S/T Prototype
Chassis Nr. 911 230 0013. This rare 911S/T was built July 1971 in Gulf orange, it was used by the factory research and race department and sold 2 year later in June 1973 to Belgium. See confirmation letter from the factory. It was sold to the Gaban race team and used as Rally car. In 1990 the car was found as a rolling chassis without engine and interior but with gearbox and in good rust-free condition. The current owner had the car fully rebuilt in England and changed to wide body.
The car today has 2.8L single plug, 915 lim. slip gearbox, correct Scheel seats, dual race brakes, FIA papers and all components are fully rebuilt and the car is race ready"
it was the subject of some discussion last year on this board
photos
factory letter
as gaban rallye car (narrow body)
"reasonably" current (x2)
one of two identical rally ST's
factory Rallye car
S AK 1336
Monte Carlo rallye 21st-28th January 1972 - car #4
for Gerard Larrousse/Jean-Claude Perramond
2nd Outright
later a recce car for 1972 TdC
sold to Meznarie in late 1972
in December 1972 Larousse at Criterium de Cervannes for Menzarie
now in europe, restored and used in classic events
Photos
3 period ones at 1972 Monte
Cervennes with Larrousse
current
911 230 0047
one of two identical rally ST's
factory Rallye car
S AK 1337
Monte Carlo rallye 21st-28th January 1972 - car #15
Björn Waldegård/Lars Helmer DNF accident/suspension
1972 Swedish rally 16th-20th February 1972
car #4 Björn Waldegård/Lars Helmer 2nd
20th Acropolis Rally 25th-29th May 1972
car #3 Björn Waldegård/Fergus Sager DNF
Practice / recce for the 1972 TdC say October, maybe late Sept 1972
Photos used in a part of 1973 RSR group 4 homologation papers (central oil cooler, probably fuel tank photo) October 1972
current existence now in south africa and restored: see thread
it is interesting that this car seems to have had a more active life than its sister car in 1972. I wonder if there is history to be uncovered on the sister car?
Photos
Monte carlo rallye (x2)
Swedish rallye
Acropolis Rally
practice TdC
911 230 0495
here is one that at least a couple of people on this board will be able to provide a lot more detail on than I can. :)
however to keep the cars roughly in sequence I will re-post some of the things said about this car in posts on this board last year. Maybe Matt or Mark can add some extra information or earlier photos if they have been lucky enough to find some.
From Matt Blast's posts last year:
"A restoration has begun by Mark Allin on a '72 2.5 ST chassis no. 911 230 0495. Engine no. 6622021. We are trying to find any period pictures or information on this car that might help with the restoration. Here is what I know so far.
According to a letter from Rolf Sprenger the car was sold to a European "competition customer" and was "not a rallye car but a competition car". According to a letter from Jurgen Barth the vehicle was "delivered to be used by the factory in April 1972 as a 2.5 litre 911 S in racing version with the following original production data:"
Engine no. 662 2021
color: Light yellow
Interior: Black leatherette
Optional Equipment: M491 Racing specifications
The car was brought over from Europe and purchased by Vasek Polak in the late 70's. According to Carl Thompson the ST was bought along with another car (a 917) but Carl was not able to tell me the sellers name from Europe.
While in the US the car was driven once in a vintage race by Danny Ongais at Palm Springs. Vasek had planned to run the car in the Carrera Panamericana but Vasek's ill health prevented this.
During Vasek's ownership the ST's color changed from light yellow to white. Also added to the car was a '73RSR front bumper, 907 front oil cooler, a repro ducktail.
There is evidence of an RS/RSR Carrera script on the sides when the car was yellow. We haven't stripped the paint yet so I don't have any more body details or potential clues.
A fellow Board member discovered that it may have been owned by Zasada at some point. It does have some rally modification that were most likely done when the car was sold by Porsche. However the car's condition indicates that it may have been a practice car or a second car. It wasn't trashed, crashed hard or heavily modified like most rally cars of the day. It still has the original engine case.
So I guess there might be pictures of a yellow ST with Carrera graphics (or without) in the early '70s somewhere. Any photos or history would be helpful, even US pictures with Mr. Ongais behind the wheel."
Matt: Do you have any updates?
Maybe this thread can act as a catalyst to help dig up some more pics of the car in its early years and fill in some of the gaps.
Photos
as posted by Matt
letters (x2)
pics of the car in Vasek guise (taken by Jens) (x2)
911 230 0769
another Board members car
Raj you should posting this one :) You have already generously posted lots of information on the board about it.
Here are the highlights. (from John Starkey's work which provided the best summary- thanks John)
Factory Built Rallye ST for Zasada
Type: 911 534. (2.5 litre S/T)
Production number: 102 3900.
Engine number: 632 1213.(note normal S engine like many rally cars)
Gearbox number: 325 418.
Colour: Tangerine (2323).
Interior: Leatherette/Black needle felt carpet.
M424: 90 litre fuel tank.
M471: Competition kit.
M474: Bilstein competition dampers.
Delivered from factory: 1/2/1972 to Sports Department to be built up as a Group 4 2.5 S/T.
Gearbox with magnesium case, # 915R/50 installed.
May: Delivered to Poland to Sobieslaw Zasada, ex-Porsche factory rally driver.
Registered 77-07-KW.
June: Europa Rally. #1: Zasada/R. Zyszkowski; result unknown.
23-26/6: Bulgarian Rally: #1; Zasada/R. Zyszkowski; 1st.
13-15/7: Polish rally. #3. Accident with Sobieslaw Zasada on last stage, whilst leading.
Sent back to factory for repairs plus conversion to RS 2.7 lightweight spec. (M471) and renumbered as 911 360 0001.
Used as a test car by the factory.
1973:
20/12: Taken over by the Press and Sport Division.
1974:
15/2: Sold to Stanley Palmer, G.A.S. Palmer Ltd; Island Farm Avenue, West Molesey Trading Estate, England for £6,200.00, with engine and gearbox separately.
1975: Sold to David Agnew.
February: Galway Rally. Agnew/Harkness; #15; 2nd.
Easter Circuit of Ireland: Agnew/Harkness; #9; result unknown.
June: Donegal International Rally: #14; Agnew/Harkness; 2nd.
1976:
Feb 6-8: Galway International: Agnew/Harkness; 4th.
March: Omagh "Pre-Circuit" Rally: Agnew/Harkness, #8; 1st.
Easter: Circuit of Ireland: Agnew/Harkness; #12 DNF.
June: Donegal International: Agnew/Harkness; #12; 4th.
1977: Sold to Sean Campbell. Had 2.8 Rally engine fitted.
Feb: Galway International: Sean Campbell/?; DNF. (Minor fire.)
March: West Cork: Campbell/?; DNF. (Fuel pump blockage.)
April: Circuit of Ireland: Sean Campbell/?; DNF (Broken Drive flange.)
May: Longford Rally: Sean Campbell/?; 1st.
June: Donegal: Sean Campbell/? #7’ 2nd.
July: Ulster Rally: Sean Campbell/? #9; 6th.
Sept: Castrol Wexford: Sean Campbell/? 2nd.
Oct: Mourne Forest Rally: Sean Campbell/ Sammy Hammill, #1; 1st.
1978:
Sept: Castrol Wexford: Sean Campbell; 2nd.
8th November: Sold to Autofarm.
1988: Sold to Chester Wedgewood.
1990: Restored back to 911S/T specification.
2002: Sold to the Blackhawk Collection.
2005: Sold to present owner.
Raj has posted so many pictures, including of documentation, it is hard to choose which ones to post
Given this is the ST thread - not the RS prototype thread - all the pictures except the last one, and one from it's UK rally period, are from that stage of the cars life.
911 230 0841
another one subject to a lot of threads on this board
can only be described as a factory race car and test car while an ST
originally a ST, used by the factory as the basis of RSR development in early 1972 culminating as running under Strahle's name but as a factory car in July 1972 Osterreichring 1000Kms.
Used in that race, and private testing the following day overseen by engineer Singer, to test various things including ABS and 2 separate tails see here
Reported as "scrapped" on 25 August 1972 but in reality turned into RS/ RSR 911 360 0002.
Seems to be assigned to press department for at least a period of time until at least March 1973.
seems to be in some photos for FIA group 4 homologation papers still in "Strahle" livery (probably taken in September / October 1972)
Used in early photo RS sessions as the red RSR looking car with white roundels and then apparently turned into "Martini" press car to use for the announcement of Martini sponsorship in March 1973 and used in other publicity shots - see photo of "Martini car" also known as "press car in snow" taken Feb 1973 at the Porsche test track.
At Targa 1973 as T-car 107 and 108 with registration LEO ZA 60 (not sure how long had that registration - maybe for whole life in Press department)
Eventually used as race car 107 at targa due to crash of R8, the intended car #107. Placed 6th OA with Günter Steckkönig / Giulio Pucci.
After targa almost certainly the wind tunnel car in June 1973 testing the Mary Stuart tail before Le Mans that year
no record after that - current existence / whereabouts unknown
Photos
"strahle" car #5 at Osterreichring
one of the experimental tails on "Strahle" car
as RS 0002 in RS publicity photos
"press car"
as targa florio car 107
I don't know about the FIA regs BUT here in Australia the number and positioning of lights on rally cars was dictated by the local licensing laws as the cars had to be road registered.
I remember 'just" getting My Lancia thru registration after lots of arguments with eight lights (about 700watts in total) (two additional Cibie Super Oscar spots and two additional Cibie wide beam floods wired off the battery on one side and directly off the alternator on the other with lots of relays :D) despite the four "normal" lights across the front because I had them wired so no more that 6 could be on at one time (they were wired so when the big lights came on the low beam went off:) ) That was in the jurisdiction that a lot of rally cars were registered (Canberra) as I happened to live there at the time. I believe that there was no way I could have registered the car, (or driven the car legally) in other states at the time. I think the maximum of 6 front lights is still a rule where I am currently.
Hi Raj
That picture you have posted is not from the Nurburgring 1000km in May 1972. It is from the 300 km race Nürburgring 3 April 1972.
The number on the strahle car is not easy to read BUT I can read the one on the Kremer car - 105
however in that May 1000km race, car #105 was a BMW200ti entered by Hegels (D) and Kremer and Fitz were in car 55
I have 2 photos of what MAY be that car in that race. I got one from Jim Calzia and the other i lifted of a video after a suggestion from Jim
I am not certain of either but I don't know where else Strahle ran with #70 without going through all the race reports of that time.
Note this is not the car at the Targa and in my records there is no mention of an accident.
I do not know but looking at the 2 photos and knowing that Strahle ran with the trademark bonnet and seeing the front spoiler on the car that is not smashed up does not fit the wider guards I would surmise that there was an accident in practice (see results in photo) the car was fixed enough to run the race - albeit with non fitting front spoiler and new front bonnet.
I do have a photo of the Kremer car in that race (attached) and also one of the Strahle #131 car (which went on to do the targa) and the Kremer #105 car from the 300Km race in April - also attached
finally there is a new picture of the strahle car at the targa - from the rear
Here you go Raj
I had been thinking that as well but had not spotted the padlock
two things to notice
1 the stickers covering where 4 sets of rallye lights would be
2 the creases in the RHS guard just above the horn grills - i think it supports my theory that this is post the accident on the other picture with possibly the stock factory bonnet back on to replace the Strahle one that got bent
I had always wondered where S AK 1336 had gotten to in 1972 after the Monte as the sister car was busy with the Swedish rallye and the Acropolis.
Maybe they were busy testing out / building a RSR track car with Strahle based on the Monte car in addition to the #5 car we have been posting about?????
the only other photo i have are the front end crashed that are posted above
I am on the lookout for them though
I think the car is 911 230 0041 as at that time the sister car was doing the acropolis rallye
just what engine, and other modifications they had I don't know.
there is no indication in the race results I have
Which photo
I got the one of the whole car from Jim Calzia
I dont know the source - Jim are you out there
I believe it is period AND after the accident damage and probably during the race (you can see residual damage on the RHS in the blow up photo with the white bonnet)
I lifted the accident photo at about 5 and a half minutes into the RUF video that I got the #5 photos off here
that is definitely period
The bonnet but nothing else was strahle yellow with the logo
the rest of the car looks like the monte ST for larrousse, even down to the blackout on the chrome bits of the headlights lights and the padlock
This thread is really interesting.
I would like to contribute with a few photos of STs from the 1971 Targa Florio. I cannot ID them, but maybe it's of interest over here.
Ennio Bonomelli - Christine Beckers DNF due to broken oil line
Attachment 57291
Attachment 57292
Cheneviere - Keller 4th OA & 1st GT
Attachment 57293
Schmidt - Pucci (Strähle) 6th OA
Attachment 57294
Greub - Garant 8th OA
Attachment 57295
Hope it helps,
Andrea
Hi Raj,
As we discussed on the phone, I also think that the car probably remained at the factory for a while and then was sold off to a customer at some point. We don't have a build date but it was built as an original long stroke 2.5. It follows then that it would have been built months before April '72, maybe even in late '71 given that 0495 is an early long stroke based on the '72 ST list that has been circulating, and April is late in the '72 model run. Also, what exactly does the Barth letter mean if it is taken literally... the car was "delivered to be used by the factory in April '72"? Again what was it doing before April, and was it doing something else with the factory starting in April, or was it sold off in April?
The questions yet to be answered are what did it do while a factory car? When was it sold to a customer? Who was the customer and what races (if any) did it participate in before being sold to Vasek?
Matt
Raj,
Yes I would think that 0495 would have been made much earlier than April if this car has an April production date. Thanks.
Matt
I think i got up to 911 230 0841
Glenn posted the details on 911 230 0921 earlier in the thread and also on 911 230 1195.
The next one on Raj's list that I have any details on is 911 230 0934
I have that as a Car in the USA/ Canada in 1973 with Heimrath Racing.
Here is a photo of it at Trans-Am Edmonton 19.8.1973 for Ludwig Heimrath but the first event I have it recorded as doing was in March 1973 at Trans-Am, Road Atlanta, for Heimrath Racing with Heimrath / Minter (maybe as car 74 as that seemed to be the number that team used that year)
It seems to have been sold to a Norm Ridgely for the 1974 season.
there is more information on racingsportscars.com
The next one on my list is 911 230 0987 which again has been mentioned in a few threads on this board, is owned by a board contributor, and was mentioned earlier in the thread
here are a couple of photos: the porsche paperwork has been posted before on this thread, so some period photos (the blue car #87 in the photos from the Norisring 24/6/73 ) and two, i don't think have been posted here of it today
I will let the current owner contribute more if he wishes
I believe that 911 230 1139 was a practice car for Keyser in 1973
If so, it may be the camera car shown at the Targa Florio in 1972, although it may have been the race car #23. I dont have numbers for either although one or the other was also at le mans and i think nurburgring with keyser
the camera car 23T was a different car to the race car 23 as both appear together in some photos
I think the camera car may also be the car shown that was for sale in the UK in the past couple of years
can anyone on the board shed any more light on this?
All i know about this one is from an ad when it was being sold by Edmund Harris and some snippets of information from other sources
911 230 1348 sounds like a "customer built" car - not a factory built one from the descriptions given. However as a number of people have said the competition history and lineage is as important as the origin of these cars.
this is what was on the website for the sales pitch for this car a year or two ago
"Porsche 911S chassis No 911 230 1348 was delivered, in silver, to Brumos Porsche in Jacksonville Florida in 1972. The car was supplied direct from the Factory to Peter Gregg in basic form along with all and any parts Brumos required in order to prepare the car for the 72 Imsa season. It was to be a second race car for Peter Gregg and also play it's part in future development for the 73 cars for the factory.
Also for the 1972 season, Canadian racer Jacques Bienvenue had ordered a new competition 2.5 911S (SR). Unfortunately this car could not be delivered to Bienvenue, the one destined for him was 'taken' instead by the factory to replace one of their rallye cars which had been totaled.
The Porsche Factory suggested that Bienvenue call Gregg at Brumos Porsche to arrange a deal on his second car (# 1348) - Gregg agreed and a deal was done.
Bienvenue raced the car in the remainder of the Canadian championship winning four races outright and in so taking the championship title.
In 1973 Bienvenue sold the car to fellow Canadian Marc Dancose. He repainted it black and raced the car, intially with the 2.5 motor and later fitted with a 2.8, and then 3.0 ltr in RSR specification, in the IMSA GTU series, regularly finishing in the top 5 in 73 and 74. In 1975, again with Jacques Bienvenue as co driver, winning the Canadian championship for a 2nd time.
From 75 to 77 the car then only raced periodically in IMSA and TransAm races in the USA until being put into retirement and storage. In 1980 Dancose sold the car to Michel Pilon, who in turn sold it to Jaques Rivard.
The car remained as original and unrestored in storage up until the mid 1990's when it was discovered and purchsed by well know Porsche collector and enthuisiast, Prescott Kelly. Kelly set about a complete restoration back to it's original 1972 2.5 specification and colours - from the chassis up - and carried out by Rivard.
The car was then raced throughout the USA in historic events with great success. The car was invited to compete at the '50 years of Porsche' historic meeting at monterey in 98 and both Renn Sport Reuniun meetings (2001 at Lime Rock - were the car had won twice in the early 70's !! - and in 2004 at Daytona) taking class wins at each.
A brief selection of period race results include;
1972
Mayor's Cup 1st
6hr St Croix 1st
Grand Pris Trois Rivieres 1st
3hr 'Labbats 50' endurance 1st
Winner 1972 Championship (Bienvenue)
IMSA
3 hr Bryer. 2nd in Class.
Daytona Finale. # 15 - 9th.
Camel 500klm Watkins Glen. 7th.
1973
12 hr Sebring dnf
IMSA
3hr Daytona 4th
Limerock 3rd
Limerock 3rd
3hr Indianapolis
1974
Watkins Glen 6 hr (world maufactures championship) 6th O/A.
Daytona 250ml 11th O/A
1975
Winner Canadian championship.
The car has a complete history file (verifying all of the above - including all original paperwork & hand books from Brumos Porsche, letters of confirmation from Bienvenue, Dancose, Pilon, Rivard and the Factory, many original press clippings and period photographs, original race log books - and much more), it is surely one of the most historic of all the 911 2.5 SR's. "
the photos are all from when the car was being sold
Hugh , you listed details this car earlyer but it has only just hit me the fact that this was owned by a Kiwi!! so i would like to track down more info .
Do you have any other photos of the car as below in the kiwi paintwork and do you have any ideas if Mr thackwell is still around your neck of the woods or in the racing scene still in aussie?
911 030 1715
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
911 030 1715 - finally an "Australian" car
The only RHD track ST
Western Australian registration XBC 121
Nick Moss has lots of information and pictures here http://www.early911.co.uk/historic/html/1970_st.html
"The cars racing career started in 1971 when it was sold new to New Zealander Ray Thackwell.
Hi John
you looking for inspiration for your project?
I have other photos ....... but they are the ones that Nick has on his site as well - and all much more modern with none having the Kiwi on the side
This is the ONLY one I have ever seen of the car in early days in WA
it was from a newspaper article back in the day when it was in a display at the state library or museum or something. A reference to the image at the state library in WA is here . I have not tried to order it as i believe it is the same one i have but if you are looking for a good copy you might try them (the reference says there are 2 images)
Most of the pictures (and there are not many) are of Thackwell's 1973 RSR rather than the ST
He went to live in the UK in the mid / late 1970's. He was born in the early 1930's but i dont know if he is still around or not.
You might have heard of his son, Mike Thackwell (also a Kiwi born in aukland) who made into into Formula One in 1980 at the age of 19. Despite great talent he had very little experience (he had only been racing since 1979) and was unsuccessful in the three GP races he entered that year (for Arrows and Tyrell).
Through the 1980s Mike Thackwell drove for a variety of teams in F2, F3000, the World Sports Car Championship, the Japanese Protoype Championship, and the New Zealand International Championship before retiring completely from motor racing in 1988. he may be contactable.
You should contact Nick Moss in the UK. He would have seen what was around so far as history when the car was being restored and may be able to put you in touch with the owner at that stage. I remember talking to the then owner a couple of times when he was chasing historical information on the car. I am not sure what he got but I am sure you would be able to find out.
regards
Thankyou for the info , i will have a look through our pcnz data base as i'm sure there is a family of thackwells listed !They may be related .
I'll also contact the people in the mclaren trust i know and see if the have a contact.
JD
fantastic photos. I have not seen colour ones of that car before.
I am fairly certain that it is the same car- the black and white photo has very similar characteristics
this is the last 1972 car I have any detail on
911 230 1687 was campaigned by George Stone / Silverstone Racing in the USA from 1972 to at least 1974. Drivers included George Stone, Bruce Jennings, & Mike Downs at races such as daytona a sebring
I dont know whether it was a factory built or customer buit car
2 photos of car #77 Daytona 1973 Silvers Racing Driven by: George Stone (USA)/Bruce Jennings (USA)/Mike Downs (USA)
1 photo Sebring 12 Hours 1973 Porsche 911 S no.76
Silverstone Racing Team Driven by: George Stone (USA)/Mike Downs (USA)
I have lots more photos of what look like ST's from 1970 onwards
however I cannot match them to chassis numbers
I undersatnd that only 80 to maybe 100 were produced in any year in any form - ie factory or cuustomer built
I hope that this thread will continue to bring more details to light
Who knows what the chassis number of the green Kremer car is - Gib?? did you see it?
I heard that it was 911 250 0335 but don't have any proof
If so I think Gib has enough photos of that car to start a whole new thread!
Hugh,
PM send,
JD
and one back to you JD
Just so's he can be credited-
Those two color photos of the orange Ludwig Heimrath car were taken by Don Markle, a very nice guy who has taken a lot more period Porsche photos from the 1970s.
Hugh:
Edmond Harris posts that VIN (911 250 0335) on his web site for the Kremer car, which he owned for awhile and restored to a roller level before selling to a US buyer. I have sent an email to confirm that VIN, and also to get the Kremer sister yellow car VIN if possible, as well as details on the history of the cars.
The 250 0335 number would indicate that it was a European 'T' with carbs rather than an MFI engine like all 72s in the US and maybe other markets. We know that Kremer did much of the work on their competition cars with a lot of factory support. Edmond Harris confirmed that the car was used in competition through the end of the 74 season, but I don't know how it evolved in body work and features over time. I think it had a 2.8L and later a 3.0L engine sometime during its race career, along with the 9+11 Fuchs. (Pics attached as #54 at 73 Daytona with 9+11 Fuchs, but still with 2.5L engine according to race records)
There is a picture which shows the car in the Carrera RS book (p. 159)at the beginning of the Racing chapter, but I don't know which race this was. It appears to have the small lip extension on the front bumper that the factory added to 73 RSRs, which might indicate it had the center oil cooler, but maybe not.
Gib
Hugh,
I missed your posting a couple pages back on 911 230 0495. Here is an update on the progress of the car.
The paint was stipped off the car. Underneath was one layer of yellow paint on the roof and 2 to 3 layers on the remaining car. The car was not any other color except yellow prior to being painted white while in Vasek's possesion. As mentioned earlier there was at one time a 'carrera' script as on the RS/RSR on both sides.
There was an air deflector welded behind a front mounted 907 oil cooler (along with a '73 RSR bumper) but this was done at Vasek's, according to Carl Thompson. I have a photo (provided by Tom Linton) of the car at Vasek's shop wearing an ST front bumper.
There are holes around the outside of the engine compartment that became evident after the paint was removed, and appear to be rivot holes rather than screw holes, and held something that possibly covered the engine lid. Is there a picture of a yellow ST with something covering, or attached to, the engine lid? A rain shield, camera mount etc..
It would be helpful to know the chassis numbers of the Michael Keyser cars, including the camera car(s).
At this point we have no european competition history but will keep looking. It is my contention that the car was used by the factory and then sold off before being purchased by Vasek Polak. It was not updated continuously through the '70s and still appeared as an ST, with its original long stroke 2.5, when imported to the USA. It is in suprisingly good condition for a competition car and may have been used as a spare or second car, but that is speculation on my part.
I will post updates when I have them including pictures of the writing that Mark found after the paint was removed...the designation 'ST' on both doors and the chassis.
I'de like to thank Hugh, Raj, and all who contribute to this thread. Hopefully more genuine history of these cars can be uncovered.
Thanks again,
Matt
There is a great discussion with a lot of detailed pictures on the evolution of chassis strengthening modifications from ST's thru RSR's etc on another ST thread.
Gib correctly suggested that they should be posted here as well so this is the link
that thread also has posts on the use of a T or S as a base car for the ST here at post 34
and while I am on the quest of adding links to related areas on the board this is the link to the discussion on homologation papers and weight for ST's
Raj
Nikolay posted this on another forum (i have cropped it as well to fit better on this board)
Zasada in rallye Bulgaria in 1972 in 911 230 0769 (before he crashed it)
I tried to email to you but it bounced back
regards
Hi all,
Great thread, new(er) to forum, quick S/T question:
What does the S/T designation stand for? After reading everything it appears that some folks say it was originally a factory internal designator for a combination of a lightened 'T' chassis with 'S' running gear for factory motorsports purposes. Later it is referred to as a lightened 'S' chassis sometimes fitted with steel or aluminimum or fiberglass or combinations of all three, panels plus other factory racing parts and the implication is the cars were used as 'test beds' for homologation purposes. Any clear definition anywhere on what the 'T' stands for?
Thanks,
JP
I have a rust free 1973 narrow body car that I am theming on the ST cars - I know I should build based on an RS being a 73 car, but I preferred the ST.
There are a couple of narrow body cars featured here, and my question is did they feature steel or fibreglass front bumpers ?
I note that some ST have standard (albeit in most cases widened to cater for the flared front fender) bumpers whilst others have them from the 'S'. Any reason for this ?
I also have the holes in my metal bumper from the 'S' mounting trim - on an ST, and if they used a metal bumper, would these have been welded up and the tape applied over them, or the tape applied straight over the holes. ?
At the rear, some have the quarter bumpers and no center chrome guards, whilst others have the one piece 'R' style bumper - the 'R' will be my choice and in fibreglass. Same question, if they kept quarter bumpers, where they metal with tape over or fibreglass ?
Ian
From the great Racing Sports Car web site:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...973-02-04.html
We can see the benefit that the 73 RSR 2.8 L engine, plus suspension/brake changes had compared to the 72 STs of Kremer and Toad Hall with their 2.5 L engines. Here are the data from the 73 24 Hours of Daytona:
Penske Sunoco 73 RSR (911 360 307 R3) 2.8L class
Started 12th, DNF (piston failure), Qualifying time: 2:02.794
Brumos 73 RSR (911 360 328 R4) 2.8L class
Started 8th, WON, Qualifying time: 2:02.156
Kremer 72 ST 2.5 L class
Started 23rd, finished 6th overall, Qualifying time: 2:07.812
Toad Hall 72 ST 2.5 L class
Started 26th, finished 8th overall, Qualifying time: 2:08.503
From these numbers, the 300 hp (RSR) vs. 270 hp (ST) advantage plus the suspension improvements and bigger brakes resulted in an approximate 5+ seconds per lap. And the factory never looked back.
Gib,
I thought I read that the two 'Prototype' RSR's at Daytona had 'modified' 2.7 RS engines not the 2.8's......:confused:
I'll try to find it....
Cheers
Chuck:
I have never seen any documentation on a 'race' 2.7 engine that achieved higher than the 270 hp of the 2.5s. Looking at the lap times, the engine had to achieve significantly more output than the 270-275 hp that Kremer and Toad Hall had, to beat them by 5+ seconds per lap. My first thought was that the engines might have been the 3.0 L versions, but I think since these cars were built in Jan. 73, the 3.0 engines were not yet available.
I wanted to put this data on this thread to contrast the ST and RSR performance at a known venue to show a good comparison of how the evolution of engines, suspensions, and brakes gave the 911 a significant performance benefit in a very short period of time once the factory got interested in developing the 911 for track competition. The 917 was gone, and with new management, the 911 was now the only game in town.
Maybe the source you remember was using the reasoning that the 2.8 was a 'modified 2.7', as early references for the RSR called it a Carrera RS intended for track competition. Other references show that as early as July, 72 the Strahle prototype RSR (possibly 360 0002) raced in Austria with a 2.8 L engine, and both prototype rally cars at the Tour de Corse in Nov. 72 had 300 hp engines, which would have been the 2.8L engines.
Gib: I think you are on the right track and my reasoning is as follows. I believe that upon introduction, the werks considered the race cars to be Carrera RS with option code M491, but referred to them as a Carrera RS for branding purposes. Remember, they were taken off the RS line and then converted to M491, so they did indeed start out as a Carrera RS.
It was Erwin Kremer who began referring to a Carrera RS with Option Code M491 as an RSR. So, the early race entries showing Carrera RS are most likely correctly identified as RSs, but with Option Code M491.
We know these as RSRs today, but they were not called that by the factory until Kremer's name for them gained popularity in the motoring press.
Would love to hear differing opinions.
Tom
Raj:
We are talking about Daytona. Both the RSRs and STs I listed were running 9+11 Fuchs, so the differences were the ducktails, larger brakes for the RSR and engines...not much else. The only way to have a 5+ sec lap better time would be a significantly stronger engine. Both RSRs were comparable in times, as were the STs.
Helmuth Bott is quoted as saying in the Carrera RS book: "We see this merely as a long distance test of our engine." They would have been interested in tesing the engine they planned to use for the race season in the RSRs...and that would have been the 2.8L engine.
Gib: I would add to your list the RSR's raised spindle front struts from Bilstein. I think the factory tests on these showed significant improvements in lap times because they allowed a superior chassis set up. Tom
Tom/Raj:
Yes, those raised spindles probably contributed to the better times. It is interesting to compare the Kremer ST with the Toad Hall ST. Kremer had the better lap time by less than a second, although the car did not have the deep front air dam or hood mounted lights of the TH car (the pics above are from the 73 Daytona race). The front air dam on the TH car would have upset the balance (actually increased rear lift) without a rear spoiler, and those lights on the hood increased the Cd (drag co-efficient) rating I am sure, which probably explains why the Kremer car was a little faster.
The factory prepared RSRs had extra lighting mounted on the front bumper/ spoiler, which did not have a detrimental effect on Cd. Both cars had the extra 2" lip on the front spoiler, but not the Mary Stewart spoiler in the rear, so they were not getting the full benefit of aerodynamics that Porsche would discover later in the season (Targa Florio).
Raj, to your point I think, the factory worked on both the aero effects to get better speed and handling, and then took advantage of the experience with the turbo charged 917 to build a 2.14 turbo 911 race car ('74) developing 450/500 hp when rules allowed a 1.4 multiplier for forced air engines in the Championship of Makes rules coming in 75/76. The factory worked on weight reduction, aero effects, and more HP to keep the 911 derived cars competitive throughout the 70s. It was a great period for Porsche and established them as a world class competitor...continuing to today.
More on the aero effects of the ST vs. RSR. Paul Frere's Porsche 911 Story gives the following lift or down force figures for the 2 cars as they raced at Daytona in 73, and compared to the rear spoiler developed later in the season known as the 'Mary Stuart Collar'. The data was from wind tunnel tests after the Targa Florio race in April 73.
152 mph:
ST deep front spoiler, no rear spoiler (TH car)
front (downforce) 60 lb;
rear (lift) 320 lb
RSR extended front air dam, ducktail
front (downforce) 60 lb;
rear (lift) 126 lb
155 mph:
Mary Stuart style rear ducktail
front (downforce) 22 lb;
rear (downforce) 77 lb
One can imagine the braking/handling issues for the STs (especially Toad Hall's entry with the deep air dam) coming off of the long high speed oval into a tight turn with downforce at the front and over 300 lb lift at the rear.
Raj,
Page 2 and 2A. might help......
No mention of 'RSR' anywhere in the Sales Bulletin No. 72/98
Cheers
Raj,
I don't know anything about the Strahle car or the Freisinger car.
The front mounted oil cooler is interesting though. I wanted to find out if the front cooler was with the car when it was imported by Vasek or if the two fender coolers were in the car. In a previous post I mentioned that a 907 front cooler was added while with Vasek, but I wasn't sure if that one replaced a cooler that was already there or if it replaced the two fender coolers. It is understandable that Carl Thompson wasn't able to recall this information as its been about 35 years now. The braided oil lines that ran through the passenger compartment and into the trunk to feed the front cooler were put in at some point but I don't know when this happened (Europe or Vasek). The car has signs of the usual external hard lines running along the passenger side.
What is your impression of the Stahle car? If the Strahle car you pictured here raced throughout the '72 season is it possible that it could retain its original engine case? I don't know. The 0494 car was yellow and had the fuel filler in the same place, and at some point had a front mounted oil cooler. It would be helpful to find a chassis number for the Strahle car.
Matt
long stroke camshaft ??
MFI version of Typ 906 camshaft, center oiling, three bearing.
Specs:
906 Lift I/E: 11.73/10.24; Duration I/E (deg crank) 281/251; Lobe Center (deg camshaft) 95; Intake Valve Overlap 6.7*-6.9*\
37yrold911: Oh, now I get your question; yes Raj meant crankshaft - the new 70.4mm throw crank.
"No mention of 'RSR' anywhere in the Sales Bulletin No. 72/98"
Chuck, Raj:
Here is a scan of the fly page of the Spare Parts List Carrera M 491 2,8 ltr. competition type dated Febr. 1973
NOTE: It does not say RSR anywhere on the cover or anywhere on the list of parts inside.
That is because the car was not designated an RSR by the factory.
The name RSR was invented by Erwin Kremer to denote an Typ RS Rennen (race) or RSR for short.
The factory did not pick up the name until it was popularized by the motoring press.
The factory did use the RSR designation on the cover of the 74 RSR 3,0 spare parts list, well after Kremer popularized the term and it had entered common usage among Porsche enthusiasts around the world.
My mechanic just handed me over this photos.
His father in-law owned this yellow 1972 Kremer - Porsche 2.5l in Switzerland from 1974 to 1990'ies.
Got sold to a german dealer.
I dont have chassis numbers but might have access soon.
Edited March 2013: confirmed its 9112301417
Who knows this car or its racing history ?
In racing trim. date unknown. Kremer Porsche. 1972 chassis.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3438/dsc02096y.jpg
The car in about 1974 with his then new owner.
Note s/T flares similar to factory 72 models.
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psc541a86e.jpg
Front spoiler has similar 'fog' light grills as seen on white 72 factory car (page 2)
(red) ducts provided additional air for front brakes
(info by mechanic who remembers driving and servicing the car)
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7ca5f98d.jpg
In 1982, the car got painted silver but kept his twin plug 2.5l.
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s8cbae528.jpeg
Engine...
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3977/dsc02097.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1405/dsc02100b.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9262/dsc02102q.jpg
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1342/dsc02101k.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8203/dsc02099.jpg
hello
What would be the functionalities of the parts attached to pump ? I never seen a system like this. Is it a inboard iddle system for starts. Maybe there is a lever (between the seats) to activate it ?
Manu, Raj
What strikes me is this 2.5l 1972 has the same factory equipment w front spoiler and S/T flares like period 71/72 factory shots.
Also, it has the electrical cut-off close to windshied area similar to factory cars.
Maybe Kremer bought one of these 72 shells and rebuilt the twin-plug engine.
I dont know anything more about the but I heard the car is currently in Germany and in used on historic racing.
As stated before, at some stage it was repainted in silver but originally light yellow.
Factory shot of a similar equipped 911 (see page 2)
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/421...1ca469afo2.jpg
The "swiss" car:
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psc541a86e.jpg
Here is again the engine, chassis repainted 1983 in silver.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3977/dsc02097.jpg
Raj
Did you ever talk to Bytzek about the 1973 RSR? I have his car, the one with the big Maple Leaf on the sides.
I have the blank ordering papers for the RS, 14 pages of 8 1/2 X 11. including the page that must be signed that you would not use it on the street. All I see in the papers are references to the RS, and conversions, no RSR reference
QUOTE=varunan123;194111]Chuck posted this porsche VW circular of Dec 72-suggests that indeed at that time it may not have been seen as RSR to order.I will talk to harry Bytzek who took delivery of the first customer RSR and will see if it was ordered as a carrera RS M491 or RSR.There are other references i will post.The marketing dept took delivery of the RSR prototypes in Dec 72.
Raj
P.S thanks chuck[/QUOTE]
This is one of my favorite ST photos, taken by J. Watermulder, showing an ST at the limit...opposite lock full throttle, trying to power through oversteer as the hill ahead looms. I think it is a more recent photo, not period...but it is a great shot.
Rugen is known for making great 911 race engines off older flavour.
http://www.rugen.de/
Not so much off a web but go to there friends, there you can lose your self a few hours.
http://www.stimming.de/
Raj & parced@telia.co
Thanks for the Stimming.de and Rugen identifications. I had some of their pics saved awhile back but lost them. I like what these guys are doing to build period looking competition cars. Neat!
For the last few years these great and unique 'just-pre-aero' race cars have been the apple of the Early 911 enthusiasts eye both hear and the world over. This last month has been the proof with no less then two UK publications running articles on clones...
- GT Porsche - Orange ST clone by Tuthill
- 911 & Porsche World - Turquoise ST clone by Nick Moss
And now I just received a publication from our friend Nic Roveda (former owner of the 'rally flared silver '73S) from a family visit to Italy. This from the Italian GRACE Classic & Sport Cars, a great 8 page article on the real '71 2.2 Waldegaard RAC ST restored by Jim Avis.
..... man I wish I could read Italian
Something to consider:
With all this I've come to question if WE, the Early 911 community, are not having a substantial influence on the greater 911 and historic sports car culture as to what there is to read and what to spend their 'news stand' money on .............. ;)
.... and so it goes
FYI: the green "sun-roof" ST, #1014, is now available for sale at Roock Motorsport in Germany.
Featured by Excellence in their November 2008 issue, the car has been converted back to its narrow-body ex-works configuration in the mean time.
http://cms4.roock.de/
Must be a lot of power to be fed through 6" rear wheels...
Hey Chuck, are there any closeups of that front skid plate. That looks very close to the one I made for my car but I'm still debating on how/where to mount it to .... thanks!
No, they only have one photo of each car. I have already contacted them because I was interested in more pics - and the rear wings of the green ST. :)
But to no avail yet... :(
The grey car is freshly built and shall cost Euro 180k which I feel is lots of money for a replica - even though it might be what parts and labor cost.
There is another very nice ST replica here:
http://www.classicdriver.net/de/find...lCarID=1782687
Curt,
Here's a pic of the skid plate for the '71 RAC car...
Photo by Fabrizio Gremo
BTW- There's a pretty full resto photo doc on this car... but I lost it on the net.....:rolleyes:
Cheers
Raj:
Here are the interior specs of a MY72 "pure competition" 2,5 ST prepared for circuits and hill climbs (as opposed to an ST prepared for rally use).
Note that the price list shows the "roof and interior lining out of black felt" for the 2,5 pure competition specs as shown below. The scan is taken from the Sports Purposes manual.
It would follow that the rally prepped cars were fitted with standard headliners and indeed the period images of rally cars show them fitted. As you wrote, it seems that drivers could specify an ivory or black headliner according to their wishes.
I would be happy to scan the entire document and post it in this thread or some other if Chuck likes.
Raj:
Are you saying that your ST/RSR had a black factory style headliner or the black felt material as listed in Tom's document? It would make sense for a track car to have the felt since windshields were changed regularly, and the door seals might not have been used with fiber glass doors, all of which would be easier to deal with if the headliner material was simply felt material glued to the roof rather than wrapping up into the seal grooves as a stock headliner does.
I cannot remember which type the Signal Orange 73 RSR of John Schoen's has, which is a very original example. I remember it is black, but I cannot see in the picture I took which type it is. Did the RSR's have black felt as standard?
If the felt was used in 72 , was it just used on the roof and the the exposed rails ( i.e were the interior lights are ) were painted as per the body or was there also felt on the rails as a separate piece?
Here's a shot I took of 911R No. 17 as presented at RR III in November of '07with a red felt roof as well. (Car was maintained by MooreSpeed).
JZG
Raj:
Thanks for posting the pics of your Zasada ST (renumbered to 911 360 0001). I think most of the RSRs I have seen have a black headliner and not the felt liners. It would be valuable to get a photo from the day of the felt liners on an ST, as few would have survived competition without being redone several times along the way...and then final modern restoration. The factory Martini RSR does have a headliner as you pointed out from pics (including mine). We will never know how many STs were built with felt liners vs normal head liners, and 'in the day' it wouldn't have made any significant difference one way or the other. This feature would not have been high on anyone's list of 'must haves' to get a competitive advantage.
When you visit the Museum later this year you can do some research on these cars, and we will expect a full report of your findings. (Also, find that picture of the Wagonpass for the #3 Martini RSR press car and get to the bottom of the VIN mystery...please).
Raj, The Scheel that you show in the above post is one of the metal framed buckets. Not sure of the era, but the upholstery hints that it probably was in roughly the same era as the plastic seats.
One other detail of the museum RSR (which had been a 72 ST) is that at some point in its life it had a roll bar to the front A pillar that bolted to the plate still located on the sill. The questions are 1)when was it installed, and 2) why was it removed? When did full cages come into use by the factory?
Gib
I have seen photos of a1970's werks ST before restoration with a fuel pump for a heater attached up under the scuttle (almost under the windscreen) on the Right hand side.
I am confident that it was original to the car and was in the original position for that car.
however I have never seen one in situ before and would be interested to know if this was the standard positioning on all cars or only on this werks ST
Raj:
Looking through my '98 version of Starkey's book, it appears that most 74/75 RSRs in European competition still did not use full cages, but Brumos and Holbert in Daytona/Sebring of 74 had cages in their 74 RSRs. Maybe the safety rules were different in the US vs. Europe.
I agree with your thoughts that the museum RSR (renumbered ST to RS 911 360 0020) could have had a cage installed for either the Paul Ricard tests, but more likely when the rear wheel wells were opened up (after LeMans) for testing those huge rear slicks in order to provide more handling stability as the G forces would have been flexing the stock chassis quite a bit.
I can't imagine that those welded-in plates would have been done and not used...they are remnents of some factory testing somewhere along the line. These comments may better belong in the Targa Florio thread, but it is also a fact that many STs had full cages installed as they continued to compete over the years. Here are a couple of shots of the 72 Strahle ST interior showing a cage...although it appears to be attached to the pan and not the sills in front.
Gib
This is a picture from an early 1970's Werks ST rally car showing the dash.
There are three switches that I would like help in identifying.
they are the red and yellow/green ones to the right of the heater / air controls and the one without a knob on it further to the right.
this car had 4 auxiliary lights, a petrol heating system, full rally Halda or twinmaster etc,
I have attached a closeup of the switches as well in higher resolution where you can see the third switch looks like it is more like a rheostat or something that twists (and maybe should have something on it as a knob.)
however a photo of the interior of the Larousse 1972ST for the Monte, also attached shows a similar setup (highlighted in red). Again the third switch does not appear to have a knob on it and seems the same as the one in my picture. Maybe it is an adjustment for the brightness of the map light above it - but that is a wild guess on my part.
and , no , I can't follow the wiring to see where they go to - it is all disconnected
I dont recall seeing anything similar before -- anyone??
These are what appears to be a matched set of seats from a Werks ST rallye car.
One looks identical to the Scheel that Raj posted the adverts for (Rallye 400) in post #203 , and it does look different to the one in his car (apart from being dirtier)
The other, navigators, seat I am not sure about. I does look a little like an early Recaro but I am no expert in this area.
neither have headrests but there is provision for them.
the seat base of the large seat seems to be all aluminum and tips the seat forwards to gain access to the rear.
Questions:
1 is my identification of the large seat correct?
2 did it come with a tilting base?
3 is it likely to be aluminum as standard or not?
4 can anyone identify the other seat?
5 I have never seen an interior photo of a competition car of that era that did have headrests, would they have been used or not?
Hugh:
Scheel
Scheel recliner is the type favored by competitors in the Monte. These are great seats and extremely comfy.
What is most interesting about that Scheel recliner in the picture is that it has the "GT" model runners installed on it - the same runners as used in a SixGT and sometimes spec'd for ST. It was used in some of the 71 Safari cars too. Extremely hard to find set of runners and worth some loot. The sliding mechanism is released by the handle mounted on the side rather than on the front as it would be on a standard set of Scheel runners or a Recaro runner.
The same style Scheel GT model runner is seen on the driver seat in your McKlein photo in your prior post.
I don't think the GT model runner was ever sold aftermarket by Scheel. It is a Porsche specific race bit as far as I know so a Werks provenance is highly likely.
Ferrari
Yikes!
The other seat appears to be the factory optional "Ferrari " model seat, offered in 65-66 and very valuable! It is essentially a Speedster seat if steel but if it has an alloy bucket is the same or similar to 356 B GS/GT. Very cool seat.
It has the extended thigh support characteristic of and unique to the Ferrari but not seen on Speedster; so I am pretty sure that is a legit Ferrari. Is it yours? We are talking hens teeth on that seat!
The Ferrari is shown in Dr. J's book on authenticity. RARE!
Here is a pic from E-H. Not mine.
Observations
We know that the drivers and co-drivers of Werks rally entries were invited to choose the seat they most favored. That accounts for both the wide variety of seats seen in factory built rally cars and also the fact that the Driver and Co-driver seats were rarely a matched pair.
Trifecta
This unusual pair being together, the exteme rarity of the Ferrari seat and the GT model runners being fitted on the Scheel would all support a Werks entry provenance.
Final Thought
Hugh, in the pic of the seats in the car, it is apparent that the roll bar has the upholstered padding that is unique to Werks rally car entries. That is the type of roll bar seen in all of the Safari cars.
So Hugh, this is the question, have you found an original Werks rally car? I believe that you have. My guess is one of the '71 Safari cars.
Tell us, are there holes up in the co-driver's footwell for the auxiliary oil lines (these were fitted to Werks rally entries because the external lines were prone to getting crimped in rough terrain).
Tell us, does it have a single thick washer welded onto each of the strut towers to mount a 2,3L style factory strut bar?
Guys,
I think HughH has found an original Werks rally car, most likely a "71 Safari.
looking at that seat and others posted , i came across this seat and although it appears to have been messed with , it has a old frame and fibreglass skelton? would this be a early scheel?
A while back on Flunder's great 'Another Hot Rod' thread the subject of the 72 ST factory front bumper came up because of the picture showing it to be a metal bumper. I made the comment that I had never seen an ST with trim mounted. Well, just as is almost always the case with Porsche, saying 'never did that' is usually proved wrong. Here are a couple pics from the Random Racing pics thread (thanks Curt Egerer) showing STs (same car?) with trim on the front bumper (which means it was probably the metal version)....Go figure! (Didn't he realize how much weight he could have saved?)
This may not have been a Werks ST, but it has the horn grill pull cable for a the front trunk mounted cutoff switch, which was an early factory solution for this function. Maybe Hugh or others can identify the S/N to clarify which VIN it was and whether it was a factory ST.
Gib
Edit: Upon further examination, it does appear to be the same car. At least they used the light weight 'T' trim and not that WIDE 'S' trim.
Gib
I am not sure if it is the same car or not but I think the car in the two competition pictures is 911 130 0721.
Here it is in 1971 - before Curts pictures and just after it left the factory by the look of the Zoll plates, in 1973 at the 1973 targa, and recently when it was the subject of a magazine article in the UK
I am sure UK members will recognize it
this is information provided by autofarm when it was sold through there some years ago
"Further information
• An outstanding example in all ways - very hard to criticise this ST!
• Completed Coppa Intereuropa at Monza 1000kms 1971, 17th overall Targa Florio 1972, 12th overall and 1st Special GT, Targa Florio 1973 as well as many other period events from 1971-75
• Short-stroke 2.5 litre engine to the full 275bhp Type 911/73 1972 race spec with high butterfly mechanical injection (hardly run in!)
• Factory supplied in early 1971 to full Group 4 M491 Race spec' "
I like the front lic. plate :eek:
It looks like the factory must have supplied a 72 style ST METAL bumper WITH the trim after some damage to the original version (appears to also be in metal with the holes)....pretty amazing pics really. You have to wonder why this bumper would show up like this.
Gib
The ar in the top photo which appears to be a factory 72 clearly has the oil filler door. The next photo of car #317, does not appear to have a door which fits Hugh's comment that it was probably a 71.
I was not disagreeing with Hugh's comments or posting. I was pointing out that this 71 ST which had the earlier style (pre 72) front bumper in the first pic appears in 72 and 73 with a 72 style bumper, which apparently was metal with trim. I had thought that most STs had fiber glass front bumpers.
Gib
AGREED , up until a few months ago i though the same , then on the pelican site a guy came up with a set of front and rear geniune porsche s style ST metal bumpers ! so they exist
here's the link http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...ght=st+bumpers
Some years ago I bought what I thought was a very unusual bumper on ebay in Germany - it looked like a std '72/'73 front bumper but had flared ends ...
Apologies for the poor photos but at that time I wasn't very good at documenting (photographically) parts :
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2496/...35eccb6d_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2469/...5261fae3_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3463/...f665f843_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3439/...0ce1e623_o.jpg
I had never heard of a '72 ST metal front bumper so assumed it was a home-modification - eventually sold it to Russell Edmonds (Edmond Harris)
.
I bought a Recaro ST seat approx. 10 years ago and it came with this mounting bracket that supports the seat (one front, one rear) between the tunnel and side rail seat mounting platforms. The unique feature is that it has legs made from the same tubing the main body is. The tubing is cut in half and then bent over on the end to form a foot, which rested on the floor pan. These tubes were fairly light and had some flex, so this was an effort to provide additional support....maybe for a heavier driver...They appear to have the same welds as the end pieces, and since they are the same material in thickness and appearance, I tend to believe they were mounted at the time the original brackets were made.
Anyone else seen these?
Gib
Here is proof positive of the factory practice of using fiber glass fenders and front bumper on STs. We knew they did, but this is pretty dramatic proof. I think this is a 70 or 71 pic.
Gib
The tyre tread in the first pic is how they used to make a "road legal" slick tyre. They cut 3 or 4 grooves round the tyre across its width, which gave it "tread" .
Now is it ST?
S-T?
or S-T?
which is correct (or at least period-correct)
and what about T-R? or T/R?
FWIW...In speaking w' Jurgen Barth at Rennsport last year, I specifically asked if the ST was a factory designation used back then and he confirmed that it was.
Further to the conda green "sunroof" ST, it is up for sale at Jan B. Luehn now, with a nice description of the history and some good photos:
http://www.janluehn.com/stock/55/stock.html
very nice , i see no price listed ? is it a case of " if you have to ask you can't afford it...."
Well, John, it says "priced to sell". ;)
But with "boring" 2,7RS Touring being offered for 200k Euro and replica STs going for 130k Euro at least I know that I do not need to ask! :rolleyes:
I came across an article form an old European Car Magazine by Steve Hornby (June 92) in which he describes a ride around the track at Moroso Motorsports Park near Palm Beach, FL in the restored Silverstone Racing 2.5L ST (73 Daytona 24, #77). This ST (911 230 1687) finished 4th overall (ahead of Kremer [6th], and Toad Hall [8th]), driven by George Stone, Bruce Jennings, and Mike Downs.
Steve Hornby's article captured my imagination as I read it because it was such an honest description of what it was like to ride in a restored 275hp 911ST as a passenger. The car passed through the hands of Bob Beasley, and then to George Drolsom, and finally as this article was written to Dennis DeFranceschi. It had gone from an ST to an RSR bodied car in the IMSA GTU class, and George Drolsom won the Porsche Cup in 75 in the under 2.5L class with it. Dennis returned it to an ST to compete in SCCA and SVRA vintage events still carring #77, and riding on 7+9x15 Fuchs as seen in the pic below.
Hornby begged for a ride around the track (2.25 mile, 10 turns) as he had watched Dennis run 1:34 times, which was faster than most of the Corvettes were running that day. He describes the ride thus:
"....Heading down the front staight, doing maybe 160-170, you're faced with turn 2, a 180 deg. left-hander. There's no way you're going to make it, you think, until Dennis hits the brakes and it's like clobbering one of DOT's concrete barriers. Unbelievable! Depending on his entry speed, Dennis seems able to make a variety of lines work for him as long as he gets back on the power quickly and sets the car up with a little oversteer. Some of it is the big slicks working, and some of it is the tremendous power that's available.
Exiting turn 2 is like being shot form a cannon. The short chute between 2 and 3 almost ceases to exist. There's the phenomenal rush forward, your helmet clanging on the roll bar behind your head, then the equally sudden application of the brakes again. The whole lap seems to go by like that, the only respite coming on the front and rear straights. There, you can finally push yourself upright again and get centered in the seat. My Stop watch was hanging around my neck the whole time, but I never clocked a lap. It kept hitting against the door or the seat, even me, and turning itself on and off.
The back straight is wide, a good place to pass. Why not? It's easy in this thing. Porsche 911s running flat out become moving chicanes that you're past in the blink of an eye. Dennis brakes just a little for 8, actually two turns forming an ess, and you find out how stiffly sprung it is. The quick left/right produces no nasty weight transfer, as it does in your own car, though Dennis probably feels more than you do sliding around in your seat.
So, what's it like? Exhilarating, brutal, noisy, phenomenally quick are the words that come to mind. Hot, too. I didn't need my jacket or gloves for some time after climbing out of the cockpit.
Yeah, Dennis did a good job on the engine." (rebuilding it, as explained earlier in the article.)
Raj:
This ALU skinned RH door is from a Werks prepared 2,3L ST. Note that the door skin is fastened to the steel door frame with rivets and that the majority of the inner structure of the door frame has been cut out. This door is extremely light weight.
The door appears to retain its factory original paint: Blutorange.
I have several bits from the same car: balsa lid, some factory plexiglas and a door panel. The chassis number of the car itself is still unknown and is believed to have been written off in Germany in period.
Perhaps the most noteworthy details to be seen on the door are the "lightweight" door hinges.
Are the hinges on your original door similarly drilled?
Is the original door on your car on the LH or RH side?
Next time I am up at the shop we will mic the steel frame to determine if there is a measureable difference as compared a standard door frame.
Raj:
The NOS aluminum door skins have been installed on the 71S car's original steel door frames.
As you can see in the pic, the center structure of the door frame was not cut out as had been done to the original ST door.
You can see the bare aluminum on the inside surface of the door skin in the areas free of overspray.
The ST door should be significantly lighter as so much of the structure is cut away.
I always thought it was the T that was lightest and homologated :confused:
Raj:
Just wanted to add that the Larousse car was not in fact legal for GT Group 4.
His car no doubt used a light weight shell with all the ST tricks plus some very light non-homologated 911R parts added.
It was a factory "special" prepared by the Race Department to run as a Prototype and contest the TdF for the overall win.
Hi Raj;
According to Harvey he has seen approximately 50 nine inch wheels dated January 1971 but none earlier.
I have looked at some here and they are all from 1973.
Raj
Can you clarify where you are getting the homologated weights from?
On the Homologation form (Nr 3011) I have for the T & E Models Jan 1970 the weight mentioned is 970KG It then metions 1020 kg "Leergewicht nach DIN 70020", then "Achsiast vorne" 600 kg and finally "Achsiast hinten" 840 kg.
In Form 3025, April 1970 for the 911 S only the weight 960kg appears, neither of the latter categories are filled in.
I have been digging around for more photos of the 'Thackwell' S/T from back in the day and have found these, the black and white shot being from when Ray owned the car and the colour shots being shortly after it was sold in '73 when Ray bought an RSR.
The flare profile leads me to believe that this car may have been delivered as a narrow unflared car orignally and flared in a similar manner to the other cars competing in Australia at the time.
I'll post a few more photos tonight when I am home.
As a comparison here's a shot of one of the Porsches that was competeing in the Australian Touring Car Championships at the time - Jim KcKeown showing a similar flar profile on his 911S
Whoops forgot the photo...
great photos of the thackwell ST cam
I had not seen any of those before
the last 2 look like they were taken while Dr Leo Stubber owned it
Hugh
Correct, the photos in blue are from Dr Stubbers ownership.
It looks like he then had the car painted as per these later photos...Do you have any idea as to the colour the car was delivered as? It looks like white?
Cheers
I spoke with Ray Thackwell yesterday and talked about his old car. Interestingly he said that he was not the person that ordered the car from the factory....Apparently the car was ordered by a Colin Giltrap who was a Porsche dealer in New Zealand who ordered the car with the intention of rallying it. Colin was someone Ray knew being a Kiwi originally himself and Ray said he basically hijacked the car!
He also confirmed it was a narrow bodied car with steel panels. He then added the flared panels and wheels from parts supplied by Alan Hamilton and painted the car white from its original Signal Orange.
I have wondered whether Kremer or others used the 7R wheel as a base and then added to the outside to get wider wheels. The 1 inch or so extra backspace would have given quite a wide wheel even though it doesn't look like an 11" Fuch on the outside.
Gib
Hi Raj
I don't think that is quite correct
I just re-found some information I got from Porsche years ago that might solve this.
From model year 1970 onwards they had an internal order number system for all the cars that specified the car quite precisely. This was the system used between the dealers and the factory. Those of you who were associated with dealers at the time may recall it.
This is my summary of the numbers used. It is a 6 number system, the first three being the model type, then a number for the body type, one for the engine type and the final one for the gearbox type. I believe that this system was introduced for the 1970 modelyear - ie the start of the use of the "911 xxx xxxx" chassis number system.
here is a summary of those used at that time.
Model type
911 911
930 930
478 924
932 924
928 928
927 928
Body Type
1 T Coupe
2 T Targa
3 E Coupe
4 E Targa
5 S coupe
6 S Targa
7 Carrera Coupe
8 Carrera Targa
Engine type
1 T
2 E
3 S
4 Carrera
5 Turbo
Gearbox type
1 4 Speed
4 5 Speed
5 Sportomatic
so an RS would be 911 744: 911,Carrera Coupe,Carrera,5 Speed
a 911S targa 4 speed would be 911 631
and yours is 911 534; 911, S coupe, S,5 Speed
Raj
What was the color of Max Moritz ST ?
Is there a color picture somewhere ?
thanks
Manu
Raj
I don't know if there were any special extra designations for RSR etc in the order code, I suspect not. The information I have seen is the full list of orders from Australia over a 5 year or so period including RSR's which were in the RS code list. That period also covered at least one real factory built ST and there was no special order code to distinguish it. I think an RSR would be a conversion number or option number of an RS ie 911/744 option M491.
As to ST's I suspect that they were either 911/134 if based on a T shell or more likely 911/534 if based on an S shell and then possibly with a option number M471 or M491 or something else to designate the pack of options including a "hot engine" that turned a street car into a race ready car.
I know we have been trying to work out how early M491 was used as the "Race configuration" option but there must be something to designate the use of a "66x" or "69x" engine rather than a "63x" one in the earlier cars. I know that 911 230 0495 is shown as having option M491 and a "66x" engine but I am not sure if I have an earlier instance. Before then I have seen the use of M471 which seems to indicate a "66x" engine, ie in your car.
On specific ST's I know the 1972 Monte cars were delivered to the testing department without engine and gearbox and they were coded Type 911534=911S Coupe. However there is no option code to distinguish that they are different from a normal S. In fact the distinguishing factor is that they are "no options" cars, as are the first RSR's.
I can understand RS0012 being called a 911/544 as it was based on a 1972 "S" shell rather than a 1973 RS shell and the letter from the factory that I have a copy of states that chassis numbers 11, 12 13 and 14, being the prototypes RS's, have designation 911/544 while the series production cars have designation 911/744.
I suspect even R1 and R2 might be 911/544 cars as they were based on 1972 shells with oil doors so are obviously not 1973 RS shells. I would expect the order code for R2 to be 911/544 option 491.
I think I have caught an another picture about the other side
I recently had some belts made and my source sewed on some patches that appear to be factory original for 911 STs. Does anyone have an original set with these patches on them, or know whether these were authorized by the factory?
Gib, I don't think those patches are orignal. Repa would not have used a Porsche crest on one of their tags and I rather doubt they made a version that was specifically a "ST Model". The style of the crest is also not period. Factor in the Federal Safety statement and such....Looks to me like it's a recently made ficticious label. It's also quite possible if your source is in the business of making seat belts regularly then, it is their way of conforming to DOT, hence the Federal Safety statement. In that case that label might correspond to their "model" of belt so to speak.
All of the REPA labels I've seen for various Marques were all very similar and in line with what you would find on the stock Porsche belts. They also had a part numbering system that had a similar format across their lines as well.
Michael:
You are right! I checked with my belt maker and he said they use old cotton to give them a vintage look. If I had just thought about it, I would have known they weren't real with the 'Federal' reference. But they look pretty neat....and anything that says 911 ST is a little mesmerizing....
Gib