SWB vs LWB. How do they compare?

I bought my ‘66 911 5 years ago. I love the car. I love the engine. I love everything about it. (It’s “real”). I’ve put 35k miles on it, so I drive…alot. But, I have a problem. I want a long hood LWB car and I’ve never driven one. Maybe some people can weigh in on the different experience (feel) of driving the two? (Subtleties and non-subtleties). Specifically, I’m thinking of a 1970 or 1971S.

I thought about buying an 87-89 Carrera. However, long ago in another life I owned 2. My thinking is an air cooled Carrera would now be to sterile. Too “isolating” (if that makes sense). I’ve also owned a 75 impact bumper (my first Porsche).

How would a ‘71S compare to my “66”? Obviously, it will be faster. Corner better, etc…just a more “advanced” automobile. But, I do not want to lose the mechanical feel of my “66. Is the feel of a 70-71S closer to my ‘66 or is it closer to an early 2.7?

(TBH, my ‘66 feels as fast as my early impact bumper car did).

Where on the scale do these Esse’s fall between a SWB and an early impact bumper? Closer to the “66 or closer to the ‘74?

There is a visceral feel to my ‘66 that’s been somewhat designed out of the ‘74’s. I don’t want to lose that. Will a long hood S keep that feel? Are they closer to a ‘74?

I have never driven an S. It seems like I’ve never driven most of my 911’s in my life, until I buy it. That’s why I’m asking. A 911S is no longer an inexpensive car. I don’t wanna buy one if every time I go somewhere (to the store or cross country) I reach for the keys to my ‘66.

Just how refined is an S compared to a SWB or an early 2.7 car?

David

This is a report I’ve posted in forum before. It from 1973 written by the incomparable “Jenks” who had been co-driver with Stirling Moss in the Merc on that the famous Mille Miglia. Jenks was involved in Porsche scene in England attending early Porsche club events back in the day and he had a large amount of seat time in various Porsches (and other cars) when they were brand new in his role as a correspondent for the well regarded Motor Sport.

Attachment 598557

Caveat: most people aren’t as good at driving or at assessing vehicles as they think they are and that includes motoring journalists so take any comments with a pinch of salt.

Steve

Borrowed this from a post on Pelican (primarily related to changes in handling of the early 911s):

“Let's not forget that the demonic handling of the SWB 911 in the early years was associated with 165/15 Firestone Phoenix Tires. It's amazing what wider, modern compound tires can accomplish.

That said, "unsafe at any speed" was published around that time and the factory took advantage of the time-honored maxim of Torts that "evidence of subsequent remedial measures is not admissible to prove defects of design in products liability cases." Hence:

Cast-iron weights in the front bumper (1966)
Wider track (1968)
Front suspension that was actually adjustable (late 1965)
Revised alignment settings (1966)
Revised springplate bushings (1967)
Revised front crossmember and A-arms (1968)
Larger front antiroll bar (increased from 13mm pencil bar) (1967)
Fuchs wheels for less unsprung weight vs. steel wheels (1967)
Rear antiroll bar (196?)

Finally they gave up in 1969 and ended up with:

Flared fenders for wider tires (185/15)
Longer wheelbase
Dual batteries way up front and outboard (there is NO electrical reason for this, it's a weight thing)
Revised front suspension design (different balljoints and crossmember)”

FWIW, I would count handling as a primary difference. That said, if you’re only going to drive to a C&C, it’s a moot point. I’ve only driven my car (‘72 S) at my max on the track.

David,

I'm usually asked the question the other way around ... From a LWB to a SWB

So this is how I've answered those questions:

'Besides the natural torque characteristics of the bigger engines, to me the only difference aggressively driving a SWB vs LWB is you need slightly quicker hands' .... ;)

So, coming from the SWB to the LWB you should have a bit more confidents...
But as Peter mentioned, if all you're doing is driving to Cars & Coffee events it's a non-issue...

Cheers and good luck,
cm

David, you do raise a point that is often on my mind: how are the myriads of other 911s compared to mine? I own a 2.4T and a 2.2S, but have never driven a SWB so can't comment on that. However, if I lived close to you we could swap cars for a drive and both learn something. Maybe there is a forum member close to you who can help you out with a test drive. Although, in my experience, if you have more time with a certain type of 911, you start to appreciate it in a deeper way than during a test drive. If you are in the financial position to own more than one, one option is to buy a 2.2S and sell it again if it disappoints you -- it won't depreciate. You didn't say why you want a LWB though, what is it you're missing in your SWB?

I did drive a 3.2 Carrera Clubsport some time ago and it impressed me deeply, but in no way was it similar to a 2.2S. The 2.2 dances while the 3.2 CS felt low, wide and glued to the road in comparison, and the engine character is very different: not nearly as highly strung as the 2.2. I haven't driven a regular 3.2 yet though. Based on what I read, I suspect a '75 would be similarly different in engine character from a 2.2: more torque, not as eager to rev.

One last thought: I always enjoy reading these type of discussions since they are the closest we can get to experiencing other cars without being able to drive them. :)

David. You need to drive a good early '69-73 LWB car and see how you like it compared to your SWB car. I know this is controversial, but I think the early LWB cars are better drivers than SWB cars. It doesn't mean LWB cars are better. It's just a different feel. Aside from cornering, which on a track can be very high in either a SWB or LWB car, the LWB cars ride better due to their longer wheelbase. It doesn't seem like a 2.25" longer wheelbase could make much difference, but it does. I have owned a '73S coupe for decades and it drives better than a SWB '67S I owned in the past and better than a SWB 912 I own. I've upgraded the suspension on the SWB car to '67S specs but the '73S LWB is still a better driving car to me. As has been said, if you are just driving your car for weekend C&C events and some canyon carving both SWB and early LWB cars are terrific. But if you are taking a road trip, I think the LWB cars are more comfortable due to their longer wheelbase. However, again not to insult anyone, there is no comparison between an early LWB car and a later G series car like an SC or a 3.2 Carrera. The difference is the early LWB car feels light and nimble whereas the later big bumper LWB cars feel heavier and even ponderous. (It doesn't mean the G series cars aren't fast or great driving cars...they are. But they feel much different than an early SWB or LWB car due to their increased weight.) In short, if I was just doing fun weekend stuff either a SWB or an early LWB car would be terrific. If I was taking a road trip from LA to New York, I'd probably pick an SC or a 3.2 Carrera...with A/C too. Drive a couple of good LWB cars and you'll have your answer.

the general rule
"The newer The Porsche the better"
holds

As far as I'm concerned, Porsche stopped making the 911 after 1968. :p

I find the swb 68S more urgent/engaging than my later longhoods.

This is turning into a great thread. Ironically I was trying to explain to my brother the joy of driving a longhood at 9/10's or more, and sent him these two videos:

SWB

LWB

I love that Harris' '64 seems to have a proper bag of antlers as opposed to a short-shift kit. Perhaps heresy, but as big a fan I am of the 72-73 cars, a 901 transmission is so much better than a 915.

I certainly like the 901 (technically 911) in my 2.2 much better than the 915 in the Targa, but the latter is hampered by a short shifter and it would probably be nicer with a standard shifter. The lack of left/right springing just feels natural to me in the 901 with the dogleg pattern, and with the 915 it always seemed odd. But the OP is thinking of a 2.2 so it would be a 901/911 transmission anyway.

I agree... The 901 is more enjoyable than my 915 w factory short shift (86) for me, but I have driven a well sorted 915 in an IB car and it was fantastic.

Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickWhite

This is turning into a great thread. Ironically I was trying to explain to my brother the joy of driving a longhood at 9/10's or more, and sent him these two videos:

SWB

LWB

I love that Harris' '64 seems to have a proper bag of antlers as opposed to a short-shift kit. Perhaps heresy, but as big a fan I am of the 72-73 cars, a 901 transmission is so much better than a 915.

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Great video's - thanks for sharing. I admire seeing these cars driven how they were meant to be driven - instead of sitting and being polished.

Wow! (And I apologize for ghosting the thread).

So much great feedback!

Richard…I think it’s that 2.25” is what I’m beginning to miss.. I will never sell my ‘66 but I believe I’m ready to relax aa bit on the driving engagement on longer road trips. That longer wheelbase makes these cars more stable.

An analogy would be juggling. 3 or four balls in the air is more relaxing than 5 6 or 7 balls in the air. That doesn’t make 7 balls in the air not fun Just different from 3 ball in the air.

And what Rick’s videos show to me is, a SWB is just “busier” than a LWB car. I want one for cross country trips. A ‘69 to ‘71.

(Now you guys have me stoked!).

An informative (and fun!) thread!

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Well, I have both a 67 and a 69, both basically stock 2.0 except upgraded to S-spec. Not a huge difference between them IMO, except the SWB is a little more skittish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RickWhite

. . . two videos:

SWB

LWB
. . .

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That RS appears to be 9113600388 . . .
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...=1#post1156103




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no comparison, the long wheelbase 69-73 is FAR superior to the short wheel base. Among other things, MUCH better handling, amazingly updated heating and ventilation system, dual master cylinder, day and night front suspension upgrade, much plusher interior, and the bit of flare in the rear for 911R seven inch wheel fit!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr914

no comparison, the long wheelbase 69-73 is FAR superior to the short wheel base. Among other things, MUCH better handling, amazingly updated heating and ventilation system, dual master cylinder, day and night front suspension upgrade, much plusher interior, and the bit of flare in the rear for 911R seven inch wheel fit!

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Yeah, give me an impact bumper car, even better!

ultimately it is aesthetics.
both the swb and lwb have the iconic beautiful design.
the impact bumper cars does not conform to that original iconic design.
in some ways the lwb flairs seem to complete the original design elements
as opposed to impact cars departing

SWB cars are an acquired taste, once acquired theirs no turning back : )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joegt3cup

SWB cars are an acquired taste, once acquired theirs no turning back : )

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Yep, I still own one (had two), sold the 912 tho.
And guess what one I drive, came with dual circuit master, can fit 7r rear (depending on spacer/tire size, 68 has shaved fender lips ) and has plush interior...factory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by parced@telia.co

SWB´s
My first car, ever, was a 1967 S. First I did not understand that I did a better deal than my friend who got a year newer 1968 T :-). However I was smart enought to listen to older folks and rebuilt the car to standard spec exept for 6x15 fuchs. The lightness and that engine is on absolutely wonderful. I set the 67 before the 68 due to the sandcast engine case, the tougher rocker arms and the fact that 67 was the first year.

LWB´s
I have had both 72 and 73 S´s with 2.4 S engines, real 2.7 Carrera engines and uprated 2.4 S engines to RS-spec. I feel that the 2.4 S is easier to drive hard and fast without getting worn out, as the driver that is. The 2.4 S invite you to lazy midweek driving AND weekend racing. It has broader application I think. It´s also a more modern and developed car.

My conclusion.
If I will only have one car it would be a 73 S, being broader and nicer in it look. I do lite the "mascara" around the lenses.
If I had two cars the 73 would be joined by a 67 S.

But, as times are, today I´m in love my 73 E and the -79 SC based 73 RS replica, with a 911/83 engine with 3.0 RSR P/C´s, that is coming to life this spring!

Pär

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