Longhood Market Declining? Just wondering....

I've never obsessed over the value of our cars. But after spending 20 years working as a stockbroker I have an ingrained interest in macro-economics. And with Audette Collection I have a dog in the hunt with longhood parts and restorations.

It looks like there may be some symptoms of a weakening market. Here are some of the things that I have noticed:

Micro

• Exceptional cars seem to be holding strongly while lesser cars seem to be softening in price.
• There are scads of small parts for sale, many more than normal it seems, as if folks are cleaning out their closets and drawers. Perhaps thinking about a future sale of their car?
• Many individual parts have had large decreases in their asking prices, especially esoteria.
• Current owners are getting a bit older. The somewhat younger folks seem to often prefer G-Series cars and 964's. And the much younger folks seem to like the glam.
• The euphoria over longhoods seen at the top simply could not last.

Attachment 591681

I know we've all seen this chart way too many times, but it's just damn spot-on. I think things are around Unease for those who care about the value of their cars(s).

Macro

• Everybody and their Cousin Bubba is predicting a severe recession later this year, which of course would impact all asset prices.
• Interest rates have gone up making interest bearing assets more competitive with non-cash flow investments such as cars.
• There's a growing interest in the fuching electric cars.

I'm very interested in your observations and thoughts. Maybe it's a good time for me to retire (for the fourth time).

Cheers,
John

P.S. I hate the monetization of *everything* in our culture but unfortunately I have to pay attention to this one because of my business. There are decisions to made about what level of inventory to maintain, setting prices, determining trade-in value, etc. The Porsche longhood community has a lot of collective knowledge when it comes to business (a lot of winners here) and, as I said, I highly value your input.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaudette3

I've never obsessed over the value of our cars. But after spending 20 years working as a stockbroker I have an ingrained interest in macro-economics. And with Audette Collection I have a dog in the hunt with longhood parts and restorations.

It looks like there may be some symptoms of a weakening market. Here are some of the things that I have noticed:

Micro

• Exceptional cars seem to be holding strongly while lesser cars seem to be softening in price.
• There are scads of small parts for sale, many more than normal it seems, as if folks are cleaning out their closets and drawers. Perhaps thinking about a future sale of their car?
• Many individual parts have had large decreases in their asking prices, especially esoteria.
• Current owners are getting a bit older. The somewhat younger folks seem to often prefer G-Series cars and 964's. And the much younger folks seem to like the glam.
• The euphoria over longhoods seen at the top simply could not last.

Attachment 591681

I know we've all seen this chart way too many times, but it's just damn spot-on. I think things are around Unease for those who care about the value of their cars(s).

Macro

• Everybody and their Cousin Bubba is predicting a severe recession later this year, which of course would impact all asset prices.
• Interest rates have gone up making interest bearing assets more competitive with non-cash flow investments such as cars.
• There's a growing interest in the fuching electric cars.

I'm very interested in your observations and thoughts. Maybe it's a good time for me to retire (for the fourth time).

Cheers,
John

P.S. I hate the monetization of *everything* in our culture but unfortunately I have to pay attention to this one because of my business. There are decisions to made about what level of inventory to maintain, setting prices, determining trade-in value, etc. The Porsche longhood community has a lot of collective knowledge when it comes to business (a lot of winners here) and, as I said, I highly value your input.

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i think this diagram does not have the right proportions panic comes way earlier

My friend a decade ago restored his 240z. In the end, he calculated he paid himself pennies per hour.

I have never felt that way about the Porsche cars. So I haven’t hit unease or despair.
But my cars have nothing to do with money for me, they are 100% nostalgia.

In the world market of expensive somewhat unnecessary product, the way to adopt customers, is based on hype.
Stuff has to be marketed, hyped, luft does a good job at this.

Electric cars are hype too.
The evidence goes both ways, if they are good or bad, but the hype will be what causes their success.

The old cars do not get the volume of marketing compared to EVs.

It's even more expensive to restore these cars today and even finding a skilled guy to do it is even harder than it used to be. Paint and body shops make a lot more doing insurance work than restoring old Porsche's. I believe cars that are in need restoration will soften but already restored cars or survivors that are truly rust free will not go down in price based on the fact it's so expensive to restore these days. It would be great if prices fell on parts but I don't see Porsche or any parts distributors lowering their prices ever. I don't see anything slowing down on my end. It's the opposite.

Scott, given the incredible quality of your work you will never see a slow down. You should be prepared to be booked for life.

What I have seen from my vantage point lately is a slow down in parts sales, reproduction parts especially, but a big increase in restoration projects, particularly from outside the U.S. Which is great by me as the restoration work is what I enjoy the most.

Good "Hot Rods" are still bringing large money...

John

I for one would be thrilled if the air cooled 911 market cooled off and the influencers and media focused on other marques. Then I could buy more air cooled Porsches :)

An observation about hype. Singer is focusing on the Turbo Study which is an homage to G-Body Turbo cars. Magnus Walker is just as likely to show up at an event in a water cooled 911 or non-Porsche these days. Many of the same podcasts and YouTube channels which once generated buzz around air cooled cars are creating content debating if the 911 is overrated and if other options offer better value or a more unique experience. If the audience is bored the media machine will search out new subjects to win back their attention.

There has been a cooling of the hot wristwatch market over the past few months: considering the demographic of who is buying these luxury goods, I would assume that the vintage car market would follow suit, since these are essentially toys for grown men and they have little utility. The smart money is staying with the mechanical wristwatches and I believe that is because they are nearing their low and will eventually rise in value, although it may take a lot of time. Probably the same with the cars: they aren't making any more of 'em.

One of the things I always liked about this forum in particular is that the enthusiasm has always been for the cars and driving them with scant attention paid to their values.

I think the entire classic car market is cooling, but a few of the hot cars are taking a bit. Let’s be honest, we all watched subpar vehicles sell for too much money in 2021/2022. Now we see these dipping back into realistic prices while the deserving vehicles maintain *most of the peak value.

If you're watching the market over the last few months, it always drops or stagnates in the winter. That's why we only sell cars from March-Thanksgiving, nothing happens in the winter. If you sell a car in the winter you are probably selling it for wholesale to another seller who will hold it until Spring.
The greater market is holding steady with really good cars bringing ever better money. The problems we are seeing now are it's almost impossible to continue the rapid increases in price we saw in 2015-1016, so what some might see as a softening is actually a natural leveling off. We may not see another frenzy like the last one again for a long time, but I wouldn't hold out for $25,000 911 drivers anytime soon.
Parts are seeing a softening but that is because there are probably less cars under restoration now, then 5-10 years ago. A combination of high restoration costs, lack of restoration shops, and some of the high quality reproduction parts have all caused a slowdown in parts sales, used original parts.

---Adam

Unobtanium-inc +1 These cars consumed me back when I was 17 years old. Just happy to have a couple of these cars today at age 72. I was 48 when I got my 911S. Back in the day If you saw a 911S, you would stop your car and run over to take a look at the rare 911. Do not think too much about value Chris

yep...Adam's correct about selling season.
as for investing
are you going to buy a piece of paper that gives you 5%
a piece of gold that hurts if you drop it on your foot
Or a beautiful car that you can enjoy.

I understand what you are saying. But mine is 99% rust free, numbers matching and actually has gone up in value according to my insurance. I am not worried! I would not be looking at 60K worth of drive train if not.

Even my low mile Z28 has increased 10K since I bought it.

Who cares about Magnus. ;)

BTW I just spent well over 30K on an old Dodge truck... But go price a new Laramie!!! :D

Having a foot in both camps, I follow the 912s and the 911s. 912s have traveled upward and there is some real junk going out for good dollars. It is interesting to watch BAT. A lot of blowhards pontificate but don't bid. I think there are bidders without a lot of knowledge who drive the market upward. I don't know if they are bidding based on the blowhards comments or just plain like the 912. I try to keep the '67 911 Targa list here and not really adding anything to the list. Sales have dried up so I can get anything new here in US. Seems more sales in Europe than here but Europeans don't divulge VINs. 718 S and non S produced so relatively rare market. Lack of sales in that model seem to me to indicate that people are buying and holding. Not a softening of the market. Rare appears to be as important as quality. S Targas were keeping apace of Dino prices but that seems to have now widened in difference. If classic car market is declining why are Dinos going up and it seems Targas have peaked with Soterik's red Targa. Just rambling but a good 912 is getting closer to an average 911 in price.

A pristine 912 lightly modified to about 115 hp will run with the non S SWB 911's. A base non S SWB 911 has two more cylinders, an oil tank, and slightly better dash gauges. Not much of a difference really. Oh, and the 912 has 80 pounds less weight behind the rear axles. I'll take the 912 over the 130 hp 911. A 67S? Now that's a different story.

You 912 guys make me laugh! Hahahahaha

Glad I could make you smile. It’s kind of like the 12 cylinder Ferrari guys looking down their noses at the Dino guys. I couldn’t give a sh….. The same with 911 guys thinking their car is so much more than a 912. I see more similarities than differences. I’ve been offered 250K for mine. I passed it up. 911’s are neat cars for sure but still just a toy in my mind.
I suspect the 12 cylinder guys don’t think the 911 is even in the league of the Dino. To me all sports cars are just toys. To be enjoyed for sure, but still a toy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Pomares

Glad I could make you smile. It’s kind of like the 12 cylinder Ferrari guys looking down their noses at the Dino guys. I couldn’t give a sh….. The same with 911 guys thinking their car is so much more than a 912. I see more similarities than differences. I’ve been offered 250K for mine. I passed it up. 911’s are neat cars for sure but still just a toy in my mind.
I suspect the 12 cylinder guys don’t think the 911 is even in the league of the Dino. To me all sports cars are just toys. To be enjoyed for sure, but still a toy.

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https://youtu.be/UDIHrX-Jp2E

Can't really fault you on those comments A

Do not forget these cars are FOREVER YOUNG

Also-- These cars may be FOREVER YOUNG but the people that know how to work on these cars that have been around since the 1970's and 80's are not forever young and the new faces coming behind them are not as many as when these car first came out. So my advise is to get your car fixed and done while you still can.

Raspy, that is so true.can you imagine driving a 73S into a Porsche dealership to get service and major repair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick Cabell

Raspy, that is so true.can you imagine driving a 73S into a Porsche dealership to get service and major repair.

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So very true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raspy2point2

Also-- These cars may be FOREVER YOUNG but the people that know how to work on these cars that have been around since the 1970's and 80's are not forever.

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It's especially important to take care of lighting issues. :rolleyes:

Cheers,
John

Rise or decline in value relative to what year and price bought at — some folks here new to early 911 ownership and others here have owned theirs a long while, before they became so “fashionable”.

Attachment 591968

I bought my car early nineties and by some folks here that was twenty years late ( although my excuse is I was a kid in early 70s ans my pocket money like my legs didn’t stretch quite that far at the time).

Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911MRP

Rise or decline in value relative to what year and price bought at — some folks here new to early 911 ownership and others here have owned theirs a long while, before they became so “fashionable”.

Attachment 591968

I bought my car early nineties and by some folks here that was twenty years late ( although my excuse is I was a kid in early 70s ans my pocket money like my legs didn’t stretch quite that far at the time).

Steve

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Since we are digging out old ads, this is my favorite, "Goes Like Stink!"

---Adam

The market here in SoCal looks pretty solid. Just look at the Lit met and swap meet last weekend. Crowds galore. And the open houses at the shops were packed. Considering the awful weather we had the turnout was surprising.Great cars get TOP$$. SWT's are rare and prices are climbing like the speedster and roadster markets. Restos are super expensive and years of waiting for a well done resto as there are only a handful of talented, honest shops left in my opinion. Parts guys in my opinion will miss out holding out for higher and higher prices as the supply of resto candidates dwindles... Sell those parts now in my opinion.

hmmm...sales ad from back in the days..
904-025
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...t=borneo+green

GoO FIGURE

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...ign=2023-03-02

What's your point? That car clearly has issues of past bad repairs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doigthom

GoO FIGURE

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...ign=2023-03-02

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Pomares

Glad I could make you smile. It’s kind of like the 12 cylinder Ferrari guys looking down their noses at the Dino guys. I couldn’t give a sh….. The same with 911 guys thinking their car is so much more than a 912. I see more similarities than differences. I’ve been offered 250K for mine. I passed it up. 911’s are neat cars for sure but still just a toy in my mind.
I suspect the 12 cylinder guys don’t think the 911 is even in the league of the Dino. To me all sports cars are just toys. To be enjoyed for sure, but still a toy.

---

Sorry to hit a nerve Chris, Haha! I see you have a hot rod 914-6? I dig it. To clarify my point a 912 will never bring the value and 911 will. If same in condition. It's just like Targa guys saying they're more valuable than coupes. Nope. That was my point. I'm a guy who loves real HP in an early 911. No offense.

Growing up the family had a 65 911 and a 65 912 at the same time. 912 was a blast to drive and almost as quick. The one thing for me that was always missing (and still is with our 356) is the sound. Nothing replicated the boxer six sound and I miss it with the 356 or the 912.

Funny but scary story with the 912. Dad would drive it down the highway and the trunk would pop open sometimes. Seems the longitudes/floor was so rotten when you hit a bump the car would flex and the trunk would pop open. Ended up parting the car in the end and the 120 MPH speedo ended up in the 911.

It's been fun watching the Softies, amazing it took so long for them to be appreciated and then - BAM! - off the launch pad. It really wasn't all that long ago that I bought a very nice '67 SWB in Meissen Blue from the local Porsche dealer for $28,000.00. I really enjoyed it. My favorite configuration in hot sun was top on and back window down. It's too bad that they are now part of the money game with bids so high that few can experience them. If you own one *please* drive it so at least others can see it!

Attachment 592009

I can't find a picture of mine. This is a picture of my friend Alan's '67, an owner I admire. When it's not being displayed at the Petersen Automotive Museum, Alan probably has it out on the road somewhere.

Drive 'em if you got 'em.

Cheers,
John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaudette3

It's been fun watching the Softies, amazing it took so long for them to be appreciated and then - BAM! - off the launch pad. It really wasn't all that long ago that I bought a very nice '67 SWB in Meissen Blue from the local Porsche dealer for $28,000.00. I really enjoyed it. My favorite configuration in hot sun was top on and back window down. It's too bad that they are now part of the money game with bids so high that few can experience them. If you own one *please* drive it so at least others can see it!

Attachment 592009

I can't find a picture of mine. This is a picture of my friend Alan's '67, an owner I admire. When it's not being displayed at the Petersen Automotive Museum, Alan probably has it out on the road somewhere.

Drive 'em if you got 'em.

Cheers,
John

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We had a strange one a few years ago a LWB softie. It was in ESSES.

---Adam

@LONGBALLA. Car looked super nice. Sloppy repair but fender lines and bumper appear to align. Gas tank lateral support $147.00 and inner fender repair piece $232.00 total of $379.00 at Restoration Design. Throw in $1,500.00 for welding and paint. What else was wrong other than the god awful plaid on the seats? Resale red should not be a problem since all in the trunk area. Enough extras to justify at least $150.00 for the car. Am I missing something?

John, on another note, you got mentioned for one of your old 356's 58762, Persian Blue!

https://forum.porsche356registry.org...429253#p429253

---Adam

I for one...do not see a softening in the longhood market.
It's still just a matter of supply vs demand.
Demand continues to outpace supply by a big margin.
You see very few reasonably priced nice cars if at all.
I don't really expect this to change either.
These cars are all now at least 50 years old.
Well into vintage/collector territory.
Parts are expensive and labor is as well...when you can find it.
These are ultra unique cars...enjoy them if you are lucky enough to have one (or more).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doigthom

@LONGBALLA. Car looked super nice. Sloppy repair but fender lines and bumper appear to align. Gas tank lateral support $147.00 and inner fender repair piece $232.00 total of $379.00 at Restoration Design. Throw in $1,500.00 for welding and paint. What else was wrong other than the god awful plaid on the seats? Resale red should not be a problem since all in the trunk area. Enough extras to justify at least $150.00 for the car. Am I missing something?

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When you see obvious bad work there's plenty more bad work that's hiding under all the paint and filler and it should scare the buyer.

@Doug....

I agree with you. On the micro level the longhoods have everything going for them, except the inevitable generational shift, which I suppose spills over into the macro. At some point what we view as features will to the younger folks look perhaps quaint. That appears to be already happening with 356's. Also, they mostly won't be able to afford them so they will shift to lesser cars and justify their choice with a "coolness factor" of some sort. And of course there's the EV thing. It will always be more fun for us to go fast in a slow car but subtlety and nuance appear to be dying.

And speaking of macro (man, I am so tired of bumbling and/or thieving old men at the controls), of course all assets would be adversely affected in a significant downturn, except maybe the toys and collectible chips of the uber-rich.

Cheers,
Johnand

Supposition is sometimes the enemy of opportunity

Has a 'value thread', on ANY forum EVER solved anything???? I don't think so....just opinions and speculation...at best.

Just a modern version of sitting around a pot bellied stove BS'in. We're not curing cancer here.

As for any perceived decline, anything that isn't top drawer will not do well, period. Original cars are rare. Hot rods have become a dime a dozen. Build quality is often lacking and/or inconsistent from car to car and why there are big spreads. By now the buying public recognizes fluff cars!

The "middies" ('74-'77) are doing fine. A couple of '74 Carreras did quite well at Amelia. One went for $109,200 on an estimate of $70,000-$90,000 and then other one (a Magenta Targa) hit $201,600 on an estimate of $130-150,000. I remember when....;)

PS:
Bless Hans Lapine for doing such a fine job incorporating a new design (on short notice)) that worked, looked better than anything else offered and had a longer run than the "Long Hood".

It’s hard to look at the value of a hobby.

I am 41, soon 42 and in the process of restoring a SWB 2.0. (Base, I know, should have gone with a 912 instead eheh)

My biggest worry is that the people that work on it will die before it’s finished.
I hope it will be worth as much as I put in for the restoration. If not that’s ok.

The 911 will never die and it will always be desired, especially the early ones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaudette3

Just a modern version of sitting around a pot bellied stove BS'in. We're not curing cancer here.

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�� that’s funny

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HDA

My biggest worry is that the people that work on it will die before it’s finished.
I hope it will be worth as much as I put in for the restoration. If not that’s ok.

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There are people who still restore "Brass Era" cars.

Shortage of 4 cam Carrera engine builders but the 356 is still rocking.

BTW: One of if not the rarest BMW motorcycle ever built has it's engine and transmission
being reproduced by Manfred Ströhle:

https://sma-racing.com/team

Kompressor engine. Don't ask how much. :eek:

Beautiful detail

Agree with Sithot. If they exist and there’s demand people will do the work and some new folks will do so with great diligence /skill.

Realistically is there anything particularly complicated in an early 911 – really? Among classics the early 911 are quite common so it’s not a tiny niche either. By comparison I was chatting to a guy at the RAC London Brighton veteran event pre-drinks party who told me his car was rare. Only one made ever kind of rare! Still doing the veteran run!

The issue on Porsche I see is so many restorations of 911 didn’t/ don’t pay attention detail so nuances get erased in work. The relentless urge to do them up better than new or do nut and bolt can steamroller detail even the best exemplars such that folks in future haven’t got idea of what they were actually like. The mistakes and shortcuts of past get accepted as correct authentic. Not convinced the old guard were always diligent on authenticity matters. If I had to specify a “worry” it’s that situation more so this issue than any aspect of a 911 restoration is intrinsically beyond the skill of future generations die to the nature of the models and it’s technology.

To the great credit of this forum and some of its contributors how much is written to identify and note the originality nuances — will be a valuable resource for decades to come. But how often here are claims of perfect restorations or for sale listing shot down very quickly. Even when big name folks mentioned as having done the work. Yes I get there are budgets and what customer asks to be done. Also that they’re old and meant to be used not works of art ; get that they’re not antique to be preserved. True also that some have had a hell of a life and gone beyond the point so no harm of a currently fashionable hot rod or homage or whatever customer / owner wishes. That’s the owners prerogative. Indeed that has and does still save some sorry things that would’ve been scrapped —but that’s not my point.

It the rare survivors with lots of correct to original preserved details —often the old guard who are doing that work and may not always be as good as thought. One well very regarded restorer once told me he’d fix a small bubble along bottom edge of my first series RS door skin by putting in a door of a later galvanised car. Better rust protection this much feted guru advice to me as the owner. Hmm! Couldn’t get car my out of his very famous place where it was having its oil service done fast enough. He never saw my car again. A famous name who no doubt would rank among those regarded the people leaving or dying off and taking taking old irreplaceable early 911 knowledge and skills. Won’t name him as now left the game but shame on him. Probably not a unique story and might explain what we see.

I’m not pessimistic about skills to do these cars, if anything I’m seeing great focus, insight and knowledge. Sadly also seeing crap. No reason to suppose future cant do it and in some cases possibly can bring better attention to detail than some who are revered as old school experts* from era when frankly things could’ve been done better — an era when less information around for customers and public to find so bowed down to the hallowed marque expert. Not saying there wasn’t and isn’t great skill and knowledge but not perfect and not irreplaceable. A charming ans relented chap I know worked for Lotus engineering ans again Mwrin but now looks after a number of classic including the best 73 RS I know and a a steam car. No prizes for guessing which is the more challenging — the startup of steamer alone is mind boggling. He is relatively young with decades of career ahead of him.

I read an article yesterday in a apprentice aged 20 who’d gone into thee classics restoration as a profession age 16 with a
Long established restoration business and was doing a heritage qualification at Bicester. Also spoke to an engine builder who’d done nothing but 911 under some of the most experienced since started work; he’s probably late 20s. Just three examples I’ve tripped over without really looking. Pretty confident the comparatively mainstream old Porsches with volume of cars made good demand for parts etc is not really at too much risk of being “beyond” such folks to make a caree ans maybe improve on previous “experts”

Just my tuppence worth.

Steve

PS *not referring to or knocking anyone named on this thread just making a general point.

Google definition:
"A hobby is any activity that a person pursues because they enjoy it and with no intention of making a profit."
Gardeners don't care about the price of tomatoes per pound. Woodworkers don't fret about the value of their woodworking. The crazies that build tiny ships in bottles don't care about the used boat market.
Granted, some of us buy and sell to fund the hobby. Prices up = good for selling, prices down = good for acquiring. We all understand this. If we stress about the value of our toys, it takes away from the pleasure.
Now the problem of the old guys and the good shops disappearing...is something inevitable. We have to expand our skill sets, and share both our tools and knowledge. Probably the same issues that people face that love to use old mechanical Singer sewing machines...or Brother knitting machines. I think this problem brings us together as a group with a common cause...maybe at a point in time when we very much need that "brotherhood".

Oh, and BTW, maybe a declining market will encourage some of the flippers to consider a new line of work?

Now go out to the shop and fix something you have been putting off.
Just say'in....

+1. Especially this:

I think this problem brings us together as a group with a common cause...maybe at a point in time when we very much need that "brotherhood".


Cheers,
John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedo

Oh, and BTW, maybe a declining market will encourage some of the flippers to consider a new line of work?

Now go out to the shop and fix something you have been putting off.
Just say'in....

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It usually does. I remember there was a gypsy in NYC who used to find me cars, then the market turned and I stopped hearing from him. A few years later I was in Jersey picking up a car, he pulled up next to me. He was doing construction now. It was nice to leave the buying to pro's, much easier then when everyone becomes a Porsche buyer.

---Adam

Amelia Island results. Looks strong to me.
https://mailchi.mp/19a019885972/mont...1?e=3ab7c330c7

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Originally Posted by Frankr

Amelia Island results. Looks strong to me.
https://mailchi.mp/19a019885972/mont...1?e=3ab7c330c7

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Thanks for posting!

John

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-porsche-911t-68/

Sold for 171,911k

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Originally Posted by Gumby

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-porsche-911t-68/

Sold for 171,911k

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WOW:eek:!!!

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...911t-targa-40/

Sold for 106,911k

Real appreciation. Adjusted for inflation, the $10,155 paid in 1973 is $71,000 in today's dollar (inflation at 3.9% per year).

The last 2 examples posted were both one owner cars. A real value-add. Now that these are all 50+ year old cars, buyers seem to be happy paying a premium for a known history.

Cars historically reach their low and begin to appreciate approaching their 35th year. Many are now more interested in buying early 90's cars for that reason.

we buy what we remember liking in high school. That is why most pre war cars are losing value. Their buyers are dead or passing on soon.

low production cars will always do well because of the supply and demand imbalance.

As restoration costs have soared many of us are finding ourselves better off with driver quality cars than show cars.

Hard assets including cars have had a terrific two decades. a 10X return is a 1000% return. Many cars are worth 10X their value in 2003. That is never sustainable

Lastly, liquidity is shrinking due to a doubling of interest rates

The good news; deals on cars (and other assets) are becoming more plentiful.

Sources:
1-300SL bought for $140,000 in 2002 now $1,400,000
2-Pre War American cars like Packards and Cords having been declining for years
3-Early 90's Porsche 959 and Ferrari F40 have both quadrupled since 2010

Just checked out some of the prices on Hemming's tonight for 70-73 911's.
The prices are definitely not softening the least...if anything they appear to be strengthening.

Which only makes sense as these cars are all at least 50 years old now.
As they say, "they aren't making any more of them."

Did anyone look at this car closely?
Buy finished cars. From a financial standpoint, a car has to be pretty special to restore and come out ahead.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...mment-11067391

Yes, absolutely adorable and a very good price for this car....missed it yesterday..

another reason the71 911T sold for so high is because of the color Albert blue. one of the best colors

Buy "the car" not the color. I'll take a blown engine in a (PICK YOUR LEAST FAVORITE COLOR) before buying a "pretty" rust queen.

FWIW, there's a Malaga Red 914 on BAT where the seller admits to having $75,000 in receipts and apparently it wasn't "that bad".
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1976-porsche-914-70/

"Approximately $75k in service records from work performed by Auto Atlanta between December 2019 and February 2022 are provided in the gallery."

This one might get expensive BUT it is DONE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sithot

Did anyone look at this car closely?
Buy finished cars. From a financial standpoint, a car has to be pretty special to restore and come out ahead.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...mment-11067391

---

I've never understood this is a basis for whether or not to buy a car. "Coming out ahead?" I drive my cars and yes I bought most of them right, but I have poured money into cars I might not get out for years, but who cares. Anyone spending money on a Porsche they play with isn't taking money from their mortgage to pay for a restoration or an upgrade. It's just like it's annoying when the first question people ask you is, "How much is it worth?". I always answer, "I don't know, ask my kids when I'm dead, because I don't plan on selling it."

I fell I "come out ahead" every time I get behind the wheel and enjoy my car. Do I look like an "investor" in this pic?

---Adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

I drive my cars and yes I bought most of them right.

---Adam

---

You make your money when you buy a car.
A very dear mutual friend probably told you the same thing.;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sithot

You make your money when you buy a car.
A very dear mutual friend probably told you the same thing.;)

---

You must mean my dear departed pretend cousin. Speaking of him, I picked up a B Coupe about a month ago, guess who was on the Kardex...

---Adam

Rest in peace WS - -a real character and one very knowledgeable Porsche man. I am grateful for the time he took as I passed through twice a year. Every car he offered me I turned down because I thought it was priced too high -- I regret each!

Wanted to revisit this for a moment.

It seems everything you read about the economy is pretty extreme doom and gloom. My tiny participation in it is discouraging. About a month or so ago my sales volume fell drastically and have stayed at a low level. Everything I sell is a discretionary expense which of course are the first to decline in an economic downturn. Maybe I'm doing something wrong or maybe I'm a canary in the coal mine?

Also, while I don't follow the value of our cars very closely, the binary market with the divide between the very best cars on one side and everything else on the other side appears to be widening. The high end more or less stable with the low end falling.

What do you think?

Cheers,
John

ive been retired for 20 years
most of that time my only concern was the swell and he tide
as i have been building my car for the last few years
i would ask the parts sellers what they were experiencing.
so, years ago they were surprised by how strong the demand was
i believe it was due to people not at their normal work place
with time o their hands turning their attention to building
working on their cars
Some of what you may be experiencing now could be that people are now returning to their work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaudette3

It seems everything you read about the economy is pretty extreme doom and gloom. My tiny participation in it is discouraging. About a month or so ago my sales volume fell drastically and have stayed at a low level. Everything I sell is a discretionary expense which of course are the first to decline in an economic downturn. Maybe I'm doing something wrong or maybe I'm a canary in the coal mine?

---

Actually, most economists are currently cautiously opining that the USA likely will not have a recession in the forseeable future. Who knows? To my mind, parts sellers are canaries in the coal mine for restoration, which I do suspect may have peaked from the bubble of the past few years. That said, a local higher-end restorer very recently told me that Ferrari restorations have fallen way off, and that Mercedes restorations are on the way up, and that Porsche restorations remain consistently strong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaudette3

Wanted to revisit this for a moment.

It seems everything you read about the economy is pretty extreme doom and gloom. My tiny participation in it is discouraging. About a month or so ago my sales volume fell drastically and have stayed at a low level. Everything I sell is a discretionary expense which of course are the first to decline in an economic downturn. Maybe I'm doing something wrong or maybe I'm a canary in the coal mine?

Also, while I don't follow the value of our cars very closely, the binary market with the divide between the very best cars on one side and everything else on the other side appears to be widening. The high end more or less stable with the low end falling.

What do you think?

Cheers,
John

---

In terms of project cars, which is 90% of what we do, demand is very strong. I have 5 going out this week, buyers are taking them before I can even finish putting them together. Two going to Australia and three to Poland. No slowdown here. I just need to find more cars! Had two go to Spain recently. Buyer's keep asking, "what else do you have?"

---Adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by raspritz

Actually, most economists are currently cautiously opining that the USA likely will not have a recession in the forseeable future. Who knows? .

---

There is endless doom and gloom on YouTube of course, but what concerns me are pretty stern warnings from CEO's of major companies: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/02/93-p...to-expect.html

Also, having spent many years in finance, it's hard not to be concerned when you examine the charts. Everything points to a potentially very hard landing. But there's no way to tell how long they will be able to kick the can down the road. I can see only two things that can bail us out of this mess expanding at exponential speed: war (the usual one) or AI. As you say, Who Knows?

Total digression follows...

When I was growing up I don't think many people knew the definition of "existential" except a gloomy handful of followers of Albert Camus and Jean-Paul Sartre. (Who knew that the term "existential risk" would become a fad (do we say meme now?)? I've stopped buying eggs by the dozen.

Cheers,
John

There is always a recession coming - and it might be sooner than later - but what really matters is how deep and for how long. Most economists predict a shallow one in the US, if at all. Then the question is will we see a V shaped recovery or a slow climb back. Who knows, but I’m not betting on a fast climb out.

When the economy is stuffed it cannot just be unstuffed and when you are having a day that is stuffed beyond repair that is the universe speaking to you, sending you a message.
Listen to the universe, go home and take your 911 for a drive.
Tomorrow is another day, for now stuff it, enjoy your car.
The pleasure we get is priceless

i heartily second that!!!!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simonjjb

There is always a recession coming - and it might be sooner than later - but what really matters is how deep and for how long.

---

All bleeding eventually stops. How well the patient fares is another matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

In terms of project cars, which is 90% of what we do, demand is very strong. I have 5 going out this week, buyers are taking them before I can even finish putting them together. Two going to Australia and three to Poland. No slowdown here. I just need to find more cars! Had two go to Spain recently. Buyer's keep asking, "what else do you have?"

---Adam

---

The 3 going to Poland will be restored at a fraction of what it costs here. There is a YouTube video where Tom Yang tells a story about a Ferrari restoration done in Latvia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buoY...ature=youtu.be

That Blue 356 looks an awful lot like one I sold in the late 70's....Is it a 'B'?

Remember, we are older guy's now. Everyone i know here in the UK who owns an early 911 is holding on to it. One only has to take a look on Ebay to see all that's available,Targa's or real old dogs with stories. Lot's of up and coming potential owners are buying cheaper one's.... impact bumper cars at £60-70k. As that becomes to expensive folk are starting to get into the early 996 stuff....i kid you not..... me included.:)

[QUOTE=sithot;1155089]The 3 going to Poland will be restored at a fraction of what it costs here.

Hmm not true , I have been restoring cars in poland for 20 years now , got my own shop
problem is there is only 3-4 good shops and they are not cheap incl me :-) BUT you get quality
problem is there are 100´s so called claimed "expert" that make you a car yes cheap ,but forget about the details and quality, they can do you any car you bring

what is super funny we do got a car in from California right now the guy send it across the pond and now its going back soon , and it was not the price that was his reason to send it here

Adam´s 3 car guy , I guess ! its a car flipper , I seen some he sold to poland for sale here in poland as projects

Marek

needs full restoration, but curious on folk's thoughts on the result of this auction: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-porsche-911s-9/

All the money for a car needing a “war debt restoration”.
Might come out ahead but it’d be close.

rust rust rust
after my experience on BAT I would say buyers don't realize the costs involved. My car has aesthetic choices I took in the 80's, LS leather seats instead of the original sports seats, RS flares and a factory ducktail, but one owner car with full service history, no rust and perfect mechanically, 85k max bid, same as Garretson car
The above mentioned car has so much work and it goes for 90.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RSTarga

rust rust rust
after my experience on BAT I would say buyers don't realize the costs involved. My car has aesthetic choices I took in the 80's, LS leather seats instead of the original sports seats, RS flares and a factory ducktail, but one owner car with full service history, no rust and perfect mechanically, 85k max bid, same as Garretson car
The above mentioned car has so much work and it goes for 90.

---

BAT is a CRAPSHOOT at best now, altho it was not always that way. There are sellers with 'most favored nation' status according to the bidders and peanut gallery, and they can do no wrong. It's no longer about the car.....

This one is inexplicable to me,
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-porsche-911t-78/
Maybe I am naive, but I see at least 100k to get it in reasonable shape.Conservative estimate

6 month review.

Seems things are still softening?

Stable I would say. Just saw a 72S that was not perfect do 180K on BAT least night.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rick Cabell

Stable I would say. Just saw a 72S that was not perfect do 180K on BAT least night.

---

^^^
Even riff-raff cars are selling high imho.

Just purchased a "fairly decent" 73.5 T for $110k.
I'd say the long hood market for good cars is still pretty strong.
I've been looking for quite some time and nothing you want to take home to Mama can be found for less than $100k.
$60-80k cars are normally just horrible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skinnerd

Just purchased a "fairly decent" 73.5 T for $110k.
I'd say the long hood market for good cars is still pretty strong.
I've been looking for quite some time and nothing you want to take home to Mama can be found for less than $100k.
$60-80k cars are normally just horrible.

---

Hmmmmm. Maybe I need to raise the valuation of smoky.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skinnerd

$60-80k cars are normally just horrible.

---

Pretty much sums it up. ;)

It seems like there is a 6-8 year cycle of 'is this the end of the longhood bubble?'

There aren’t “bargains” out there. I just paid a very strong price for a great 67 Softie (normal not S). The good cars command very good prices.

Go to Hagerty, set up an account and run a search picking your car of choice. Use "ALL" to see the trends. The general trend is up and around 2012 appears to be the launch date.
Not every car is concours and sellers using (these) numbers without a reality check makes for some seriously ludicrous pricing. I looked at the PCA Classifieds today and while most cars seem realistic there are some sellers with a very high opinion of their cars.:rolleyes:

FWIW, anyone filling a sunroof wins a Darwin Award. They are worth 10%.

This BaT that 72E that ended today was delusional.
No way this car was worth more than ~$70k imho.
Way too many issues with the "shotgun" paint job just the beginning.
I came up with 30 issues without even trying.
Didn't meet reserve at $100k.
Yikes....

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...pe-2/#comments

Paint was a challenge to be sure.

Surprised it got to $100k.

I guess it speaks to demand and cost/time/skill to get a long hood done properly.

One of the highlights was the Sepia brown fuel tank. Oh my….

Interesting to see it has a vintage tube-type tyre Veith Pirelli tyre made in Germany with 104 dot code

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 911MRP

Interesting to see it has a vintage tube-type tyre Veith Pirelli tyre made in Germany with 104 dot code

---

You're talking about the spare? Does that mean its really old or something?

Yes.

The date can be derived from the 104 dot code but tube type were only used by Porsche to around mid 1970s then they were upgraded the (steel belted) tubeless radial. Tubeless steel belted were only adopted by Porsche in G series impact bumper cars.
Attachment 615424
Can see it’s not a CN36 and it’s clearly a tube-type but can’t make out if rayon steel belt — I’d assume the former.
Attachment 615423
This change to steel belted tubeless is documented in references based in factory information.

If memory serves me well the three-digit dot code was only used to millennium thereafter code became a four-digit.

Veith-Pirelli was a venture in Germany and brand was used by the factory. I think 104 is week 10 of 74. Unlikely to be week 10 of 84 or week 10 94 as it is tube-type and would have expected it to be tubeless by then unless the tube type persisted in aftermarket? Possibly tyre a survivor from around 74? Maybe if 74 date fitted after several years at first tyre change when originals worn? Just a guess based on what I can make out from photos on listing but is fairly old.


I have an original period set of radial textile (rayon, not steel) belt tube-type ( pre tubeless) German made Cinturato for my 73 car — one of is new old stock— they are kept in storage as a “reference detail” so this spare caught my eye in the car offered.

This is advert lateish 60s it refers to “textile” ie rayon belts of Pirelli that preceded innovation of steel belted and tubeless tyres.
Attachment 615422
Veith-Pirelli were advertising steel-belted radial sometime around 1972

Attachment 615425

For some reason Porsche only adopted it three or four years later. I have posted the exact date of the change by Pirelli for 185/70x15 on 911 (Carrera ) previously on another thread so this approx date of change to tubeless steel belted cinturato is from memory. But it was well after model 72/3.

My old Veith-Pirelli price list from around that time
Attachment 615515


Steve

I would be curious to see all 4 VIN stampings on that E.

1967 911S sold for $206k on BaT a couple of days ago.
It was a pretty nice car with a great color combo.
I’ll attach the link later today.

Here it is:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967-porsche-911s-3/

Picture 183 might be a reason

Aah ha, the tin worm has been at work.

Great place to sell mediocre cars at a good price.

If you were to sell your Early 911, where is the best place?

Obviously post here on the S Registry.

Online:
BaT? PCAR? PelicanParts?
Auction houses:
BroadArrow during Air/Water?
Gooding or RM during Car Week in Monterey?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RC70SCoupe

If you were to sell your Early 911, where is the best place?

Obviously post here on the S Registry.

Online:
BaT? PCAR? PelicanParts?
Auction houses:
BroadArrow during Air/Water?
Gooding or RM during Car Week in Monterey?

---

There are plusses & minuses for all. Auction houses require long lead times and fees upfront, plus seller fees when sold.

BaT has gone corporate and so have squeezed potential sellers on reserves. They require 200+ photos and 3+ videos, plus patient responses to idiotic commentary. PCar Market is a good alternative. While the cars there are less visible, they fight to sell your car after auction fails.

Forums can be good, but they usually are populated primarily by people with Porsches already; not shoppers.

Selling on consignment with a reputable classic car trader can also work out well, but obviously you miss out on the chance of getting an outlier auction price.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eminence Gris

There are plusses & minuses for all. Auction houses require long lead times and fees upfront, plus seller fees when sold.

BaT has gone corporate and so have squeezed potential sellers on reserves. They require 200+ photos and 3+ videos, plus patient responses to idiotic commentary. PCar Market is a good alternative. While the cars there are less visible, they fight to sell your car after auction fails.
Forums can be good, but they usually are populated primarily by people with Porsches already; not shoppers.

---

100% perfect summation above... But BaT is still where you are gonna make the most $ *IF* you are willing to play the game and answer the peanut gallery. I no longer am either, but it's a math game, so many people on BaT from all over the planet, some of whom have way more money than sense. On a specialist forum you will find more experts but will not make as much.. BaT is an insane place to ever buy from IMO (way overpriced) but to sell ? yes please, worth the effort (from experience). But ditto, they are super corporate now, it's gonna be a few months at best before they are ready, they will rewrite your description in bland inaccurate legalese, so be ready to jump on comment #1 and say what you have to say, will try to go no reserve (who cares, a friend of yours can "be the reserve"), and once the auction ends they won't even remember your name (so pray all goes well).

Personally I'd try P-car market next time, less $$ but less hassle. Wait, I'm never selling again, I regret selling everything I sold.

Pcarmarket barely gets 10% of the exposure of bringatrailer.
A high percentage of the deals go south when buyers don’t pay.
Plus it’s run by a group of slimy used car salesmen.

Even people who aren’t big into cars know about Bringatrailer BUT HAVE NEVER HEARD OF MIST IF THE OTHER SITES ESPECIALLY PCARMARKET.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RC70SCoupe

If you were to sell your Early 911, where is the best place?

Obviously post here on the S Registry.

Online:
BaT? PCAR? PelicanParts?
Auction houses:
BroadArrow during Air/Water?
Gooding or RM during Car Week in Monterey?

---

Private transaction for a lot of reasons. Fees won't help the bottom line at an auction.

Beware the less than forthright in 3rd parties. CNC and CPR come to mind.
https://www.youtube.com/@normalguysu...arch?query=CNC

Plateau's happen. And 'older' Porsche's are in that category now. Having followed 356's for longer than most have been alive here, Speedsters....I think.... speak loud, they most definitely have reached that plateau. Not the first time, they recovered nicely. Now the 'best' have a difficult time breaching $500,000. Cpe's have definitely fallen off. Long hoods, albeit a higher value car seem to be in the same category. Everyone eventually wonders about value. To some that is all Porsche is about, others when driving tells the seat of your pants to grin, often, so bucks, not so much. At the same time, it appears there are a lot of folks on some sites that just don't get it.

The question is, will they revive to what we have experienced in the last 10-15 years? From my octogenarian branch of ownership of some 60 odd years, nope. Keep your butt grinning......

As an owner, it's nice of course to have an appreciating asset. But, on the other hand, I find that a lower value helps to enjoy the car. I recently acquired a Dino 308 GT4 which is worth around $70k. While definitely not as pretty as a 246 GT, or my 2.2S, I feel a lot more at ease parking it wherever I want to drive to. It's kind of a relief to not worry about secure parking. I think I would probably enjoy a 246 GT with 5-10x the value a lot less for this reason. Something to think about!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frederik

As an owner, it's nice of course to have an appreciating asset. But, on the other hand, I find that a lower value helps to enjoy the car. I recently acquired a Dino 308 GT4 which is worth around $70k. While definitely not as pretty as a 246 GT, or my 2.2S, I feel a lot more at ease parking it wherever I want to drive to. It's kind of a relief to not worry about secure parking. I think I would probably enjoy a 246 GT with 5-10x the value a lot less for this reason. Something to think about!

---

Here's one of my favorite classics. 1992 Dodge D250 LE 5.9 Cummins. I park it anywhere I want and no one parks next to me. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sithot

Here's one of my favorite classics. 1992 Dodge D250 LE 5.9 Cummins. I park it anywhere I want and no one parks next to me. ;)

---

I've got a rule that applies to cars and dogs. If you have one you're afraid of, get a different one.

All my cars are drivers.

All my dogs are hua-hua's.

---Adam

Adam, you'll never not know which car is yours coming out of the bar!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Longballa

Adam, you'll never not know which car is yours coming out of the bar!

---

This one has lots of room for friends.

---Adam

Forget all the NOISE.....and BAT the Targa. At the VERY least, you will get 'fair value'. At the best, you get 2 bidders who want the car badly enough to overpay. Kill the peanut gallery with kindness. I disagree with the reply 'more money then sense.' MOST on BAT don't even BID, and have NO money. I always thought that BAT should institute a policy where the peanut gallery is not allowed to comment without a fee......:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

This one has lots of room for friends.

---Adam

---

Big Baller Shot Caller is what they call me on the West but I'm thinking I might need to come East and hang in the Limo! :D:D

I paid "all the money" for my lowly Sepia Brown 71 911T in 1973. It's probably worth 15 times what I paid for it, maybe more. What's the fu*#ing problem?

i think it is the typical guy that buys "used' hood badges and then wants to sell them for $400

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Longballa

Big Baller Shot Caller is what they call me on the West but I'm thinking I might need to come East and hang in the Limo! :D:D

---

I usually take the kids to school in it, it's an old movie car, Rolls clip on a Chrysler 300. Cheap fun.

---Adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jim Breazeale

I paid "all the money" for my lowly Sepia Brown 71 911T in 1973. It's probably worth 15 times what I paid for it, maybe more. What's the fu*#ing problem?

---

I paid what a nice 1967 911 was selling for in 2004. It wasn't a lot of money by today's standards BUT it was market price. So was the 73RS I didn't buy for $72,000. I still chuckle about that faux pas. None of us had control over the fact that Porsches would eventually be chased like the rabbit at a dog track.

If you want to play a game where you may become disenchanted with your choices of spending money on cars or investing use an investment calculator and be honest about upkeep/insurance etc. for your inputs.
Jim has the longest hold of anyone here I think so let's assume he stole the '71-T for $5,000. If he made 10% which is fair and then added $50/month for upkeep (ridiculously low considering insurance and Porsche parts which have never been cheap). That adds up, according to the calculator using 10% to about $1,500,000.

Here's the fun "What if"

What if Jim had forgone the 911-T and instead handed a stock broker $5,000 in 1983 and bought 5 shares of Berkshire Hathaway? BRK-A

Double the above figure. Theoretically, all he had to do is sit back and watch. Berkshire pays no dividends so no tax ramifications.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BRK-A?.tsrc=fin-srch

Of course I'm pretty sure that non of this fiction ever crossed Jim's mind. I gather he's no less happy having owned the SAME car for 51 years.

Good on him!!!

Tom

PS: A screen shot from 1983!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sithot

I paid what a nice 1967 911 was selling for in 2004. It wasn't a lot of money by today's standards BUT it was market price. So was the 73RS I didn't buy for $72,000. I still chuckle about that faux pas. None of us had control over the fact that Porsches would eventually be chased like the rabbit at a dog track.

If you want to play a game where you may become disenchanted with your choices of spending money on cars or investing use an investment calculator and be honest about upkeep/insurance etc. for your inputs.
Jim has the longest hold of anyone here I think so let's assume he stole the '71-T for $5,000. If he made 10% which is fair and then added $50/month for upkeep (ridiculously low considering insurance and Porsche parts which have never been cheap). That adds up, according to the calculator using 10% to about $1,500,000.

Here's the fun "What if"

What if Jim had forgone the 911-T and instead handed a stock broker $5,000 in 1983 and bought 5 shares of Berkshire Hathaway? BRK-A

Double the above figure. Theoretically, all he had to do is sit back and watch. Berkshire pays no dividends so no tax ramifications.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BRK-A?.tsrc=fin-srch

Of course I'm pretty sure that non of this fiction ever crossed Jim's mind. I gather he's no less happy having owned the SAME car for 51 years.

Good on him!!!

Tom

PS: A screen shot from 1983!

---

Cars, in general, are bad investments, compared to actual investments. The difference is they are a whole lot more fun than a portfolio. The difference between a Porsche and other cars to own is that the Porsche tends to grow in value over time, meaning you can absorb the costs associated in owning it. As opposed to having a vintage SAAB or MG. But it still costs money to maintain, insure, pay tax, and store cars for long periods of time.
What bothers me are the guys who have crept into the Porsche world in the last decade or so, they call me looking for a car, usually a Speedster, but it must be "investment grade", whatever that actually means. I always ask them if I look like I'm investing?

---Adam

Investments have to have 3 attributes 1) grow over time 2) generate cash 3) are liquid. If they only give you number 1, then you better be compensated by a higher risk adjusted return.


Cars for the vast majority of folks are simply consumption, so enjoy them!

What he said. ^^^

“a whole lot more fun than a portfolio.” And
“ … you can absorb the costs associated in owning it. “

Agree
These 2 points particularly resonate with me …

Correct, you get to enjoy one of the best sports cars ever made and as a bonus, it doesn't lose its value. An investment it is not. I see that more as a "manthink" way to justify a purchase to your wife. :)

The only outlier is the crazy rise in prices during roughly the 2005-2015 period, but most likely that won't repeat itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sithot

. . . If you want to play a game where you may become disenchanted with your choices of spending money on cars or investing use an investment calculator and be honest about upkeep/insurance etc. for your inputs . . .

. . . Here's the fun "What if"

What if Jim had forgone the 911-T and instead handed a stock broker $5,000 in 1983 and bought 5 shares of Berkshire Hathaway? BRK-A

Double the above figure. Theoretically, all he had to do is sit back and watch. Berkshire pays no dividends so no tax ramifications . . .

---

Oh --- I got that beat

If I'd bought $58.5k-worth of Amazon in '09 @$3.24/share --- instead of my car? . . . =~18k shares


Today? --- @~$180/share? . . .



. . . that's $3,250,000


Good thing I don't eat much


Point is --- unless you're a dealer turning over cars very quickly . . . cars are a cosmically bad place to put money




.........

I had a friend who use to think this way so I once told him "what would you rather have a nice car in your garage that you can drive and enjoy or sitting in a empty garage on a lawn chair waiting for the mailman to come by and hand you your financial statement?" Life isn't all about money, it's short, so enjoy it while you can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joegt3cup

. . . had a friend who use to think this way so I once told him "what would you rather have a nice car in your garage that you can drive and enjoy . . . or . . . waiting for . . . your financial statement?" . . .

---

True 'nough

But --- if I'd deferred my gratification? . . .


. . . coulda had a house, a garage, a yard, AND a car . . . or 5


All my cars have a built-in 'opportunity cost'


I NEVER consider them investments . . .

. . . more like entertainments




...........

I posted a response in wrong thread, had to edit.
Anyway, just enjoy your cars if you can.

Methinks the bloom is off the sage. Now we can start forgetting about $$$ and enjoy them for what they are - magnificent driving machines.

What does anyone think, if anything, of the auction results at Air Water (Broad Arrow.). My observation? None of the early cars (356 to Longhood 911's) sold well. I would actually say, I was shocked at some of the low prices, especially the Longhood 911's. Thoughts??

I also watched the Broad Arrow auction. I was particularly interested in the two 65 911s, one sold the other was RNM.

I think that the prices for the early Porsches have on average either peaked or are on the decline, especially for non-matching number cars and projects. The “perfect” examples (numbers-matching and fully restored car) tend to hold their value. I question whether the auction house format is a true indicator of where the prices are headed generally. The 12-20% premiums charged by the auction houses have to be taken into consideration when looking at completed sales. BaT’s $5000 cap makes buying cars on BaT a little more palatable. I personally think that private sales are the way to go, and many of those sales are, as the name implies, private for a variety of reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prs356

. . . private sales are the way to go, and many of those sales are, as the name implies, private for a variety of reasons . . .

---

Yeah, like . . . 'Honey, I just got my ass waxed selling that stupid car you hated'


I had this Econ Prof give me a sage observation, once

He said: 'Capital will always seek a return'

Which means, all that money --- that used to go into one kind of high-return stuff (like cars? really?) . . . is now going someplace else. What a shock!


You see the markets last year?

The US stock market bumped over 25% in 2023

So with numbers like that? . . . why would anyone put money in cars?


The question I would ask is? . . .

. . . what are all those Buyers who did buy all those cars during the Pandemic doing with those cars --- and their money . . . now? Or this year?

And with the US elections coming up --- and another forecasted bump in the markets . . . where would you think any capital is headed this year?


IMO . . . . it's so NOT going to Longhoods




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I've always believed that people who buy these cars as investments, not appreciating fully their qualities as cars, get what they deserve - win or lose.

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Originally Posted by John Fusco

I've always believed that people who buy these cars as investments, not appreciating fully their qualities as cars, get what they deserve - win or lose.

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Yes.

Investment vehicle buyers are usually not 'drivers'.

The enjoyment of man/(person) handling a well running 911 over tarmac or dusty beat up roads is priceless (to those who are kindred).

Who gives a rats arse whether you paid 5k or 150k.

If you'r into pushing your skills of enjoyment, regardless of how much you may have forked out, the pure pleasure of driving these cars is PRICELESS.

The only thing 'declining' is probably fear of capital loss and reflex time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Fusco

. . . I've always believed that people who buy these cars as investments, not appreciating fully their qualities as cars, get what they deserve - win or lose . . .

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My point is --- IMO . . .

. . . those same people who pushed UP the prices, two years ago . . .

. . . are now moving on to something else --- taking prices DOWN as they leave


This is still a market --- with supply and demand . . .



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That pretty much describes our entire culture, maybe the world right now. Ray Dalio calls it Negative Polarity and it's powerful (as is Positive Polarity which has happened a couple of times in my long life). Bubbles everywhere, chaos everywhere. God bless us all.

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Originally Posted by bob joyce

i think it is the typical guy that buys "used' hood badges and then wants to sell them for $400

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It's called patina Bob. Geez.

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Originally Posted by John Fusco

I've always believed that people who buy these cars as investments, not appreciating fully their qualities as cars, get what they deserve - win or lose.

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I've always restored and tuned them to #1's and driven them to #2's. Not a great way to make money but a great way to enjoy life.

"I've always believed that people who buy these cars as investments, not appreciating fully their qualities as cars, get what they deserve - win or lose."
I Have always enjoyed building these cars. I am fascinated with the design/engineering and get great pleasure from the build.
I have built them to be "surf chasers" 1966 912
to be functional art objects 1961 Roadster
And therapeutic exercise 1968 911L Targa
All have given me great satisfaction and pleasure.
Priceless......................................... ................................

Could not agree more Bob ^^^^. Building and working on these cars brings me joy. They are a canvas. And since John posted I will add that I can't wait to add his high quality lights to my car!

Bert