Early Glasurit

What was the type of the early Glasurit that Porsche used in the early 70's? Is that still readily available? If so, where from?

The way I understand things, the early Glasuit "enamel" is no longer available. "Envrionmental concerns"...about fumes being released when cars are sprayed with such compounds. In other words, the "greens" are winning their political war against free enterprise. The paint on my car shows flaws. But I live with the flaws. That's because it was sprayed approx. 361 months ago... Today's paint can never replace that look, no matter how expertly it may be applied.

Great question! …
What we need is a Glasuit paint expert to tell us exactly what was available, at what time frame, what replaced it, and its availability.
When I initially did the ‘complete’ on my car in 1990 the Glasuit two stage system for paint and clear coat was called SYSTEM 54. I have know idea what the numbering was before 90’ but when I needed some ‘pick up’ work done in 1998 system 54 was no longer available, Glasuit changed to SYSTEM 64. I’m not sure if this was a California deal only or what. … Not sure if system 64 is still available either… Also not sure if the system number was the same for single stage paint… and, for that mater, were all solid colors single stage with no clear coat.

Man, it seems I don’t know much!

… Help!

Chuck

Roland? Schmidt?

I wrote a full page on the subject the other day and my damn computer kicked me off and I lost the whole deal, let me eat some dinner and I will write it again. Iam, lets say experienced in Grasurit, and can offer some great advise.

Hello

I know the problem. We had the task to remanufacture the original diamantacrylblauviolettmetallic from the RS 0013 and it took some 2 years to analyze the original color and duplicate it with new 2K based PPG ( Azko/Sikkens ) material.

This job was finally done by Dr.Larkins at Sikkens Chemie but also Porsche helped a bit <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

Fact is nothing is impossible if you have the resources.

In germany the main problem is to find a painter who is willing to work with that material.

Originaly we planed that Porsche Zuffenhausen should have done the paint prep and spraying from the 0013 but Porsche said they will not touch that material and so we had to jump on 2K materials.

We know a old retired painter who loves to work with old stuff but he never tells his material sources ( I think he has the most anyhow in his attic ). But he is stuffed up with real expensive cars ( prewar cars or Ferraris ) and a complete paint job done by him equals a new Compact car. The last Ferrari - job he made for one of our costumers equaled a boxster.

Grüsse

Hello Schmidt?

Have you finished your dinner yet?

The original Glasurit in single stage application is still available in a urethane acrylic 22 Line top coat. The paints have changed chemically substantially over the years to meet many new demands that are not nessesary environmental. I would never want my car painted with thirty year old paint technology, it has come a long ways and todays Glasurit high solid paints are superior in adhesion, hardness, gloss and color holdout, with excellent resistance to yellowing, salt damage, adverse weather and industrial pollution. Todays paints for the painter are far superior in flow, film build, and drying characteristics. Having said that I would have one concern, many of the early Porsche colors were originally formulated and supplied by Glasurit, when I have seen these cars painted by other paint suppliers the colors are off, even with high quality paints such as Sikkens, and Spies-Hacker, and I am talking about total repainted cars where the color was not right to the sensitive eye, but to 99% of the people it would look great. The problem seems to be in that the toners that are used to replicate a particular color vary from manufacture to manufacture and therefore the result is slightly different than a Glasurit formulation. The match from Glasurit is perfect as long as you are using a single stage top coat and I would have no concerns with this approach. Again the paints have change dramatically, but for several reasons, that are a benefit to everyone. First paints have changed to be longer lasting with all of the characteristics I have previously mentioned, which I think everyone would agree they would want in a newly repainted car. Second serious environmental concerns have effected everyone, the major problem with paints was not the paint but the transport solvents that keep the paint in a liquid state so that it could be applied to an object. These solvents are designed to be released in the curing phase into the environment which as you can imagine is not good. The challenge has been to apply paint with less solvents, and to increase the transfer rate of the application, to get more of the product onto the car and less in the atmosphere. This has been approached not only by the paint manufactures but the paint gun manufactures themselves. The paint companys developed paints that are high in solids and use less solvent to transport the paints. The paint gun companies have been developing newer guns that are more efficient, with high transfer rates and less waste. They have done this by first HVLP technology, which is not widely accepted for several reasons. The problem with HVLP (high volume low pressure) is that only 15%-25% of the atomizing pressure of the gun is available compared to conventional guns, which makes it challenging because its a little like painting with a garden hose, it tends to put a lot of material on the car with little control, and is even more critical for metallic finishes. The good part is that the transfer rate is increased to over 70% and far less material is wasted making it cheaper for the painter and far less volatiles are released into the environment. Within the last year paint guns have improved dramatically, I purchased a Sata-Jet (German of coarse) non HVLP gun that is compliant with the current transfer rate regulations without the hassle of HVLP. I uses technology that is able to spray with a over 70% transfer rate, with much higher pressures to increase atomization of the paint, which was the major problem with HVLP. Additionally it is able to separate out some of the solvent from the paint during the atomization process before it is released out of the nozzle to avoid trapped solvents which can lead to blistering. It is the best bun I have ever owned and far better that my previous conventional Sata or any HVLP. At this point everyone stands to benefit from newer technology, the painter will use less material to save money, newer paints with higher solids release far less volatiles into the environment, and the newest technology of the paint guns, not all but particularily the new Sata-Jet, offer a superior finish, ease of application, and far less wasted materials.Painting your beauty with 22 Line Glasurit is an excellent choice, or another high quality paint only European in origin is also acceptable, however the paint shade and gloss will vary, far more that the Glasurit line. I love Sikkens paint, it is on my Mercedes in a single stage light ivory and it has held up excellent for the last 10 years. I sold my other 82 Mercedes wagon to a friend and it has nearly 500,000 miles with the original paint and it too looks absolutely wonderful, and it too is a single stage. But I have seen Sikkens matched formulas that were not right to the original in tricky applications such as light ivory and tangarine, which again where formulated by Glasurit. To answer Chuck Millers question, the old two stage Glasurit line has been replaced by 55 Line polyester two stage top coat application. Another new line is the 90 Line polyurethane two stage low VOC base coat which used a water born system instead of solvent based material to transport the paint, which is used in strict environmental areas, this replaced an older line I think which may have been the 64 Line. The 90 Line is unique and I have never used it, but a Glasurit instructor told me that the quality of the finish was very good. Very interesting considering that this paint used a water born transport with low VOC solvents that are photo chemically active with sunlight, which reduces emissions drastically. Remember all cars that are metallic after 1970 are two stage wet on wet, and all cars that are solid colors are a single stage. Chuck your best bet is the 55Line. Mrimorton use 22 Line Glasurit, and find the best painter who is actually interested in painting your car and is experience in Glasurit, make him show you his current technical manual, or move on, and remember the most important thing is the prep work, this makes the differents. I have a Sepia Brown 73 E and the Glasurit is a perfect match, you will love it. But remember the 22Line is new and not all or the formulas for the old colors have been formulated. Most exsist in the old 21 Line but the 22Line is a different breed, and a new formula must be done by the Glasurit people if it is not in the computer, this will take about three weeks for Glasurit to complete this even if the color was in the computer in the 21 Line.

Schmidt

Thanks Jeff...This thread was worth printer ink! And I'm not even planning a repaint...<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

Thanks Jeff,

If I have more questions I know where to go ...

Chuck

Dr Schimdt,
That was an incredible info.

Bonnet and front bumper of my Sepia car has some stone chips on it, so I will have that re-painted from bare metal using, as you suggested, 22 Line. I will let you know how I get on, and will post some pictures in due course.

Thanks again and best regards,
Ian

Unless your car has an excessive amount of material, going down to bare metal my be more work than it is worth. Sounds to me like you are just doing some touching up and if the old paint is good, and not to thick I would recommend blocking down the hood and shooting it. Painting straight onto well cured enamal is fine and is actually a good substrate, but if the car has been painted with a unknown product many problem can and will occur especially with any laquer based products. These products are very sensitive to solvents and will blister and swell in the presents of new sovents in new paint. You may want to try a Glasurit 521 elastifier additive as well on the front bumper, it seems to help with the chipping, it is mixed 25% with the top coat. Once again the colors may vary with the new paint versus 30 year old paint that is on the car, and will so even more if the paint is not the original glasurit. The hood and front bumper are not critical areas to tint, so a slight variation will not be noticed. Good luck.

Schmidt

Hello

Well Mr. Schmidt said it all but there are still reasons to use the old paints to repair untouched old cars ( like pwd´s ).

The problem with mixing the correct paint with modern based materials needs some research and is doable.
( it is done for most Porsche paints and aviable from the Factory, Sikkens, Glasurit, Herberts ). Normaly you just order the color# and they call you if things are unclear.

So you can mix new material to perfect blend into the old color.

The major problem is aging.

The old colors are faded over the years so if you mix them to the databook they don´t match.

Then the painter usually blend in the tone for a perfect match. ( Thats only done by a small group expirienced enough )
You also can ask there service to blend the color based on a send in probe or they come along with a color analyzer.

The next problem is after several years the different based colors fade in different shades.

You can help a bit by using a UV protective clear coat on the complete car and some colors ( mostly uni colors ) are fading very similar ( especially on collector cars not seeing to much sun ).

If you have a metallic color things are more difficult in square as mixing the color is only one problem but applying that needs a absolute expert.

Also the most US painters work mostly with different products in different routines.

Now today we have a new problem arising with the "waterbased" material becoming standard in automotive industrie.

Grüsse

Yes that is true, that new paints will fade at a different rate than old paints. Nothing is perfect therefore several things must be assumed. Thirty year old paint on a car will have faded about the most it will, and if well taken care of it will hold its color. Newer topcoats have less fading properties and will keep the original shade. Perfect color matching with new paints to old paints is critical, and because of the age and stability of a thirty year old paint, the result will have little fading by in large. Doing panel repair with ten twenty or even thiry year old paint doesnt make it any better. The paint will still have to be tinted to match and if you get a match at the time of painting, you have just completed a job with paint that is far more sensitive to fade and the perfect color match may not last. Doing panel spot repair and clearing a panel on a solid color single stage color is a quick and dirty fix that may have better matching properties but then you are compairing a cleared panel that has much better gloss hold out properties to a solid color next to it, it never looks good for long.

Having said all of that, nothing is perfect when it comes to repairs. Order paint via color code is never perfect, it isnt perfect on a one year old car and it certainly isnt perfect on a 30 year old car. Paints that are mixed via color code are mearly a baseline, and MUST be tinted or toned for a perfect match. Using new paint to repair old paint gives me far more confidence, it is two knows, I know that the old paint will not fade futher, and I know that the new paint will have little fade, therefore the longterm quality will last. Using old paints to repair old paint jobs leaves you with a large unknown, we all know that old paint a suspect to fading, but how much and how fast. This will cause problems long term that would me feel uncomfortable, and I personally would not use this approach. Many things have been done chemically on newer paints to prevent fading, and this is the main reason why. I do agree it takes someone who cares who has a lot of experience to get things right and those individuals are few and far between.

Schmidt

Schmidt,
Would a top concours judge be able to tell the difference between 21 Line and 22 Line?

Most concours Judges these days don't even know what tool-kit is correct for which-year car..... Let alone paint matlerial, panel fitment or finish's. The whole sad truth is that concours judging no-longer is AS focused on what is correct and original...Detail expert's with years of knoledge and experience are few and far between.
I'm sure there's a few people that have come across similar judging issue's.

Rob.......

Most concours entrants are PRAYING that PCA doesn't ask Jeff to be a judge. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)">

I have a 1973 Porsche 911T Targa with light Ivory (code131).

It is original paint, my uncle bought car new, the paint job is OK at 10 feet and really he took good care of the car. But it does have some paint chips and bubbles.

Would you guys just leave it alone? Or touch up, some Porsche nuts say do not mess with a original paint patina.

Thx

Don't repaint it unless it is really bad. A good detailer or body shop can touch up with small brushes or maybe even an air brush and buff the paint out. There is definitely something to be said about patina. Of course, expect the body shop to try and talk you into a complete or partial repaint.