faux RS

Hey -
I'm a new guy here but have been reading this page forever. Here's my issue:

I would like a dual purpose DE/weekend car,
A local guy has an RS clone that has almost never been driven. It however has a 2.7 High Compression piston engine with Webers, a rebuilt 915, correct RS flares, nice graphics, and an extra set of Revolutions. It was an autocross car so it has an uprated rs struts and rs brakes. It has a very nice autocross cage in it as well.

The exterior has been completely redone and is an 8/10. The interior is an 8/10 but has sparco rally seats.

My main concern is that I can't resell this if I buy it. The owner has about $38,000 into it and from my research, these cars in good knick are worth in the low 20's. My question is: do these cars have any real resale value, or am I going to be wedded to this car forever?

For the record a very respectable mechanic that I know told me, that a totally stockearly 911S wouldn't really be a good track car generally because it would need so many upgrades. That would be my 1rst choice since preservation on these cars seems to be "a good thing".. ANy input would be appreciated!

Jeff

Buy it if you like it, just don't pay too much. What he paid for his work is not your problem. You cannot be expected to pay for someone elses customization unless it's done to a very high level and then the market will ultimately dictate what it's worth.
All (or at least those who will admit it) of us here have sunk money into our cars that we generally don't expect to recoup. It's a hobby and hobbies don't make generally make profits, they eat profits.
A really well done RS Clone will have MFI, correct interior and be finished in such a way that you shouldn't be able to tell the difference unless you know where and what to look for. Those can bring good money but the person selling it will likely take a loss for his efforts. Again, another persons opinion is his or hers and a reality check might be in order.
Calculating whether you can re-sell is a good thought but you cannot predict what will happen in the future so make your "informed decision" on your gut otherwise you'll eat yourself alive contemplating "what if".
Do you really want a DE/Track car? Remember that this is another factor in resale as you cut down the number of potential buyers due to the specialization of the vehicle. Thats the chance that everyone of us take when we stray too far off center.

I'm finished rambling.


Good luck,

Tom

ok this is why i knew I had to choose to hang on this board
As I was waking up this morning I really couldn't figure out who to talk to and how to verbalize my particular slant on this.
The mechanic I know has a correct MFI and would throw it on for maybe another 10 hp. But the question really is - do I want 90% of the RS experience for about 1/3 the money for an average car? Yes probably.

I really don't know if a beautiful original "S" is the way to go! Unfortunately finding one in the low 20's would be a real hunt!

Thanks,

Jeff

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JJOY

For the record a very respectable mechanic that I know told me, that a totally stockearly 911S wouldn't really be a good track car generally because it would need so many upgrades. That would be my 1rst choice since preservation on these cars seems to be "a good thing".. ANy input would be appreciated!

Jeff

---

So, do you have to win? Or can you drive the car to it's potential and be happy? I have an S and I'm not planning upgrades beyond a little suspension tuning. I'll run it here and there and be happy.

So, if you're the kind of guy who wants to be sure of his investment, get an S. If you want a clone, get that. When it comes time to sell, there will be a buyer for both. You're considering buying the clone, right? Someone like yourself will be there when you need to sell. Might take some time to find him, that's all. A good car ( 8/10) is a good car no matter what, IMHO. While you have it, make it a 9. :)

Zeke:
again - a very well informed great post. By the By - I just sold my second Boxster S because it turned my stomach to lose $7000 / year in depreciation for a nice but not "i gota sell the house" type of car. This clone should get me through the year with some really enjoyable times at and off the track.
geez a nice 2.7 is quite the symphony.

JJ

As far as investment I'd say both the Early S and the upgraded 911 are narrow markets. Rarely is any car a good investment. Invest your money or buy real estate if you want to make money.

Regarding tracking an early S...I think this question would have one sided answers if it were asked on a Porsche AX/racing board.
Unfortunately a well driven stock Miata is going to give a stock early S a hard time at the track.

If you bought a stock early S you could enter it in some PCA AX classes and beat up on old 944 water pumpers, that is cool. The Early S is most valuable in stock condition. If you were to develop it you might be losing the normal ½ value of the parts you install on it and worse depreciate the value of an original S.
On the big track I think an Early S would not be as interesting as an RS flared car that is upgraded to corner, brake and accelerate better.

My street/track 69 911T with RS flares and a 3.2 is a fantastic platform for car development. With $ it could be a 935. IMHO tracking and developing a car go together. If you go to the track a couple times a year with your buddies, you'll find they are going to be tweeking and improving their cars till you will no longer be able to keep them in sight. Some would rather stay on pace.

If this guy has 38k in it depending on condition and if it is already sorted with proven lap times it could be worth half that to low $20k. You will be safer with the roll cage too. The best way to buy one is exactly as you have mentioned. Find one that the previous owner has developed with proven lap times and big $$ invested and buy it for half price.
Next we could debate which year 911 is the best candidate for a track/street car? Does it have to be an early 911???
My 69.

Since this car has an rs style ducktail fiberglass rear deck and a fiberglass hood iand a front cooler it is lightened and cool but sort of a one off strange car.

Your car looks absolutely marvelous!

If the suspension has been upgraded I think that I'll be in the business to enjoy the rawness and oneness of the car -

Any ideas on MFI vs the Webbers? my buddy says maybe $700-$800 after selling the Webbers off and puttig his sorted MFI in?

Also - I like the cool period race buckets and have seen people with them - where is the place to get a nice reproduction seat?

Jeff

Just sevice it and go track it first.
The carbs may be fine, many track cars still use carbs.
Buy a seat after you track it.
You'll find at the track you might want a seat with more lateral support, sides and shoulders and a good head rest too. A stock style seat at the track is like racing while sitting on a beach ball. On a stock seat at the track you'll be holding on the wheel trying to keep yourself in the seat. Maybe you'll want a track seat you use just on track days?
Take it to the track during a PCA AX/DE or TT, ask the guys in the pits what works for them.

You'll find two schools of thought. Here the Early 70s period correct nostalgia accesory fans but at the track only lap times matter.
If you have track questions try this BBS.
Just gas it up and go.

Between track days read some books on driving and racing too.
If you know how, you can reach your cars potiential on the track.
Nice cheap track seat.

Jeff,
I understand your questions and I've been there myself. Personally, I think that a nice street/track car like the one you describe could keep you happy for a long time with minimal upgrades.

The thing I learned a while back is that most of these cars can out-perform the driver. That is, unless you have years of track experience that car is probably way better than you.

Here's a little episode that I like to relate when guys who know that I race cars ask me about which suspension or wing to use. (like I would know!)

I had been driving DEs and AutoX for a few years, and had been signed off solo for a long while. I thought I was pretty OK.

My "lightbulb" moment came on the downhill run towards turn 10 at Sears Point. I was slamming down the there (or so I thought) in my RUF 3.4 with suspension upgrades, sticky tires etc, etc. When my instructor and mentor Marc Kirberg came gliding past my doorhandle in his showroom stock Civic. I checked the gauges to make sure my car was still running.
After the session, I asked him how he could possibly pass me with that car.

He then took me out and made me drive that Honda all day to teach me a thing or two about momentum. It's alesson that I'm still trying to learn after ten years.

The times a good driver can turn in a stock 911 will scare you.

Also, if you are not prepared to lose your car to a tire barrier as it is, don't waste money making it faster. It's more fun to go fast in a slow car, than to go slow in a fast one.

Jol

Well said Jol !

There are a few cool and notable exceptions on this board, but a 911S is not an ideal track day car, since most performance modifications would diminish its value, and the risks of even ordinary track wear and tear don't make sense with a car that's as valuable as an early S.

For 911S owners, the good news about the S is that it's become a collectible car.

For guys who like to tear it up at the track, the bad news about the S is that it's become a collectible car.

:)

One thought regarding going for all stock is it tends to prove a bit cheaper in the long run. You don't have the temptation to upgrade this and upgrade that every couple outtings. You want to keep it stock.

My dad has the #42 BHR racing car, that won a couple GTU classes at Daytona in the mid 70's. Beautiful car to drive, and although it had a bit of a sticker on the restoration, now it is what it is. Aside from tires, fluids and such, it will never need/want an upgrade.

http://www.thepreiks.com/cars/42small.jpg

Nice looking car. I've always liked the look of the big flares with the ducktail. Something about it just balances perfectly to me. Sort of like that newer blue RUF car.

Doesn't Jack's car have that goin' on?

jolhttp://dantzig.com/planetmotorsports/08.jpg

Jeff,

I was in the same situation as you for the past year, but finally found the perfect car for me. The car was well sorted out and was used to run in PCA club racing events. The PO had purchased it and done all the RS body work and interior, yet it has the race suspension, race motor, oil cooler, and safety gear. I had been looking at only early 911s, but the car turned out to be a backdated 1975 911s which is just fine (fights rust a little better). If the car is as well sorted as you claim, than IMO you shouldn't have a hard time reselling it in the future. I took my car up to Hershey last month and was amazed at all the attention it got. I could have easily sold it for the same amount paid or even more at this event. Clean RS clones seem to command a small premium over 911's, unless it is an S of course.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8558/Picture4951303.jpg

Low 20s is the correct ballpark.