Early car hunt

I am in the market for a 911 coupe & have come across a real 1970 911S with steel RS flares added, as well as fibreglass RS bumpers and a fibreglass 'ducktail'. Older RS 'spec' engine built by a well-known engine builder (with the correct MFI). I don't think the engine is based on the original 2.2 case. Rustfree, but a so-so color change paintjob. Interior ok, but missing door pockets & has a later stereo installed. Definitely not a show car, but supposedly solid.

How do I go about assigning a value to a 'ba$tard' car like this. Seeing as the engine case is no longer original (even though the replacement engine is an 'upgrade' on paper) would there be any additional value assigned to the S VIN versus a similar car that began life as a T?

The owner is considering offers, but I would assume, as always, that he has some figure in mind. What would a reasonable price range for something like this?

Mullh20
First you want to check for rust in the body (do a search for rust on this web site) then check to see if the engine is a 2.7 built on a 7R engine case. If it is and the MFI intake stacks are plastic, then you have a good upgrade for the car. It is hard to set a value with out seeing a picture. Post a picture and you will get lots of coments. Without more information I would say below $15,000. if it has a 2.7 RS engine.

Thanks for the reply WHC.
Here are some photos. The owner claims that the original color is not visible anywhere.

...lets try these photos again:

Oh my, she looks kind of rough, doesn't she? Still, shows some promise. I'd suggest a PPI by a good shop, then get an estimate of what you'd like to do or have done to the car...base your decision on that.

Barring any serious rust issues or major mechanicals, it could be a great base for a street fighter. At least ya know up front it's not pure, so it's easier to base a decision on purchase if pure isn't what you really want. I'd say keep it near or below $10,000 (maybe a bargain around $8,000?). Reckon that's the first salvo on guesstimating a price, so flame away all you experts. :D

No flame from me Paul...but there does seem to be a lot of interest on any car with a proper "S" VIN. It's sure obvious that this one needs a LOT of help, tho...

True on the S vin market value. I'm only looking at it from an R Gruppe point of view for the car's future. It would surely break the bank trying to bring that car back to a pure S restoration from it's current state. If a pure S is what he wants, he'd be financially way better off looking for a decent example of the marque. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nullh20

I am in the market for a 911 coupe & have come across a real 1970 911S with steel RS flares added, as well as fibreglass RS bumpers and a fibreglass 'ducktail'. Older RS 'spec' engine built by a well-known engine builder (with the correct MFI). I don't think the engine is based on the original 2.2 case.

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Tell us the serial # of the engine and we can tell you what model and year it was from originally. It should be a seven digit # starting with the # 6 stamped on the right side vertical uprught of the fan housing. If you have an engine type # like 911/XX that would also help.

The injection is the early style (1969-71) with metal stacks- those can be bored out to larger dimensions if the engine build indicated it. The pump being the presumably earlier S unit-(check the pump # on the small bosch plate to check- pelican parts list has the list of pumps on their tech page)

As a real S it would cost a lot to restore, (as any car does!). but with pricing going like crazy on these cars it would not surprise me that it sells in the 13-15k range if it is: straight, numbers matching, and rust free

Thanks for the feedback all. I definitely would not attempt to restore a car like this back to its original state. I would love to have an excellent original S at some stage, but now is not the time. If I ever do get one It will not be a project car.

I am waiting on engine number info from the seller to find out what is in there. If the car is rustfree & the engine mechanically sound I figure that it would be around an $8,000 car if it were a 'T'? I know a stock S is worth alot more than a stock T, but is there a point where a car becomes modified so much that the T, E, S VIN no longer figures in price, especially when the engine has been changed out?

If the engine turns out to be based on the original case is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm guessing the 7r case is stronger & better suited to the 2.7l displacement- is a 2.7 RS engine even possible based on a 2.2 case?

TIA

"...she looks kind of rough, doesn't she?"

Internet pics are usually kind to the real thing, but I see nothing obvious that indicates it's "rough". Perhaps no floor mats (yet floor pan looks complete from here). Even the late model dash doesn't show the usual crack (from here). Perhaps a little detail work on the engine, wheels and nice paint would help the presentation. I see it around perhaps $20,000 in good shape to the right party, but start at around $8-10k and see what he says. A PPI should provide more leverage for him or you.

RE: engine size. Yes, you can build a 2.7 out of anything 2 liters and up. A build sheet would be nice to know what's inside.

Sherwood

on the subject of S VIN numbers:
http://adcache.collectorcartraderonl...6/78279416.htm

Isn't that price crazy? Would anyone pay that?

Yowwwwwwwwwww.... :eek:
Not me...not in this lifetime.

"increases in value about 20% per year" ???

That means that in 10 years the seller expects this 'car' to be worth ~$80,000 !

They might as well ask 20K if that establishes market value. I thought current value is based on what somebody actually paid for it.

Sherwood

To me the car looks pretty nice. Not stock, but it just depends on what you want. If you are looking for a stock type car maybe you should just keep looking, don't buy something just on price unless you'd just resell it. Always try to buy what you really want. They will turn up.
Of course if you are looking for a nice driver, this one looks OK and should provide alot of fun.
Tom

Guys,
Maybe I'm way off but to get an early 911S (even a none numbers matching car) that isn't rusty and appears to be in the conditon of this car for $8,000 would be a total steal. You can't even get a decent 911T for that price. I'd say if you care about getting an early "S" find out what the owner wants and work it out. I think anything $15k or less would be a good buy (and it's probably worth more in this market) as long as the car isn't rusty and as long as it's a real "S". If you don't really care if it's an "S" and just want an early car I'd pass on this car and look for a decent 911T or E for less money. Remember, all the cars, T's, E's & S's are great cars...but the "S" has the pedigree and will always be worth more than the others...my opinion.
Rich
'67S
'73S

ok- I will keep everyone posted if anything comes from this. It sounds like from what TRE noted about the MFI that there is a chance this engine was rebuilt from the 2.2S case. I'm not very hopeful about getting a build sheet however, although the seller does know that the engine has E cams "for driveability".

If I had this car I'm not sure if I would complete the Carrera RS look (with carrera decals & fuchs) or not. It seems like thats what most people would do, but given the 901 transmission, different mirror style & probably tons of other details that the much-wiser-enthusaists-than-me can spot its never really going to fool anyone.

If ya don't buy the thing, let us all know here as I'm sure there's more than one kicking around that would dive into it head first...hehe. :D

Well, am still waiting on engine digits. I requested some down & dirty photos though. Does anything here look terminal? The photo of the rear wheel well (looking from torsion bar end cover forward) seems to show some sheet metal cutout of the inner fender? Also in a 911S shouldn't the oil lines for the front cooler be visible in that pic?

It appears to have had rocker panels replaced by the look of those welds

I think I see body filler in the underside of the rocker.... and the front tie down loop is long gone from the pan...
I would say this car would be graded to be pretty rough once inspected properly.
If I were looking for a "S" to become an "S" again, I would keep looking, otherwise it could be a fine early car for a driver or track vehicle...

Well the car has been sold, but not to me!

I think the owner sold for around the 10k mark. I never did get confirmation of the engine number though so I guess I'll never know if this was a matching numbers S.

In retrospect, if it were matching numbers, it seems like a bargain. People are paying more than that for early S's without engines!

So back to the hunt. Anyone have a nice early coupe w/ 3.2 for sale ;)

That's a bummer that you didn't make it to the final dance on that one. I must have learned something from hanging around this place. I guessed $10,000 with it being a bargain at $8,000. Give myself a tongue. :p