classic car insurance

Hi all,

I'm the owner of a 1973 911.

I am probably going to get Haggerty Insurance. Can anyone give me some suggestions on other companies that treat their customers right?

I have heard stories of firms coming up with excuses to not pay the agreed upon value if the car was totaled or stolen. Is this common?

I also want to be able to drive this car and not just to the mechanics or club events. I think 5k -8k miles a year is more than enough for me.

What about track events? Will I have to get race track coverage ?

any help would be appreciated.

thank you

What you need to do is contact the Insurance Commisioner in your state and get any ratings they have of insurers. e.g. in Oregon Amica is the best (excpet for ones for vets only) - does not mean they are perfect. I had a house ins. problem with them.

Some to really avoid are State Farm (committed fraud in California according to a Judge); Geico (donates to radar gun manfs.), etc....

I represent Hagerty, however, go direct. www.hagerty.com
Very pleasant and easy people to deal with. I have no complaints about service and they are always willing and eager to talk with you regarding any question you may have.
Tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but and you should not have issues.

Good luck,

Tom

PS: I have 5 (or is it 7?) bikes and 2 Porsches with them and like I told my "other insurer" who covers my house and cars; I'm paying for one liability policy! Why? Because the only place that anyone rides 2 things at once is the Circus and those are horses! :D

The underwriter was not amused.... c'est la vie!

I have Hagerty on my 72T and 550 replica.
Price is great, easy to deal with.
However I have never had an accident, so
I cant say what there like on the claim side.

I too have Haggerty. I cannot
say enough good words about them. Good price, good service. I had a headlight fall off last year (I know, stupid) but they payed the full estimate, no problem. I've been using them for over 15 years.

I had the same reservations about not being insured driving to the mechanic, pleasure drives, going to the store, out to dinner, etc. I had Haggarty - no complaints - but was very concerned about not being covered in anything other than a parade event or car show. Heavin forbid crashing during some spirited driving. I ended up going with Mutual of Enumclaw (tripple A rated) for stated value, with comp, collision, uninsured, etc - at the same rate as my other street cars. I have the peace of mind that I am fully covered for everything sans track events. The firm is located in Enumclaw, WA.

Perhaps Tom can dispell my reservations, point by point, because Haggartys rates are great - but great has to mean restrictions.

Hagerty for me as well. Paid up quickly and easily on a confluted claim I gave them in a totally unreasonable time frame. (my time frame not their's)

I have 3 cars insured with them now, no restrictions and as I rebuild, refurbish or modify the cars and need to change the agreed values they have been really good to me and extremely easy to deal with. (two minute phone calls and email some new jpegs has been all that is required)

They were my second collectors company. The difficulty of changing the agreed values (the other guys refused) on my cars is why I left the last company a couple of years ago.

"I'm paying for one liability policy"

- Illegal in some states (Oregon). I checked into it when I had 3 Porsches and a MB SUV (all only driven by me). Be absolutely sure you are covered when driving. You don't want to lose your house, all cars, and almost all of your salary if a court finds you liable...

Try American Hobbyist Insurance at www.AmericanHobbyist.com or call them at 1 (800) 395-4835 they are located 2501 S.E. Aviation Way,Stuart,FL 34996 :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RandyWebb

"I'm paying for one liability policy"

- Illegal in some states (Oregon).

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Randy:

Hagerty's "underwriting" company is admitted into Oregon. I've done at least 2 quotes tonight using the agent's side of the site using Oregon as the home state for the vehicles.

You do, however, make good points and I highly recommend that all of you here do 2 things at your earliest convenience:
One: Check your UIM Coverage (unisured motorist)
Two: Get an Umbrella Policy to pick up where your other coverage runs out. This can be a major eye-opener in a law suit due to negligence or being found at fault in an accident or for that matter, your dog biting someone or somebody doing a slip and fall routine. (damn, it would seem that I don't have much faith in my fellow man) :o
UIM is cheap and for the peace of mind in knowing that if "dumb-ass" No Insurance Loser runs over me that I (or most likely scenario, my survivors) have something to fall back on.

http://www.hagerty.com/vehicle_features.asp

http://www.hagerty.com/vehicle_qualify.asp

The one "liability" referral applies to the vintage policy. My house, cars and other property are covered by the homeowners, car and an umbrella policy of a "standard company" (i.e. Allstate, Nationwide, State Farm, etc.)
(See the notes from the website URLs)

BTW, have you ever met an actuary? If not, I'm happy for you. They have this figured out to a fine science and don't believe for one minute that they planned on losing money.

It is assumed that owners of collector cars have a little more brain power, a lot more money and are less likely to be moral hazzards (shall I explain that one?) than the average kid on the street. Admittedly, they also don't insure anything new. Most have a minimum vehicle age requirement and do not expect a warm welcome if you have a bad driving record.

With respect to your questioning the legality of the contract here comes the news:

If ANY company's policy is admitted by the Insurance Commissioner/ SCC of any State it is sold in then it has certainly passed muster.

Trust me; Insurance Departments of every State are tight as a drum when it comes to scrutiny and compliance. It's a VERY big deal. I've been in this game for nearly 30 years and the regs./rules brought about by the financial blunders of several, shall we say, "large firms" have made keeping any license or filing a new policy form akin to getting a green card being from Iraq and active in the Taliban. They LOOK LONG AND HARD.
There are Continuing Education rules for Insurance, Compliance Rules, Client management issues regarding data, plus NASD/SEC rules and Compliance if you are a registered representative.

Am I worried? Not in the least. The rules are here to protect us all.

Now, about those horses, Randy. Can you ride 2 at a time? ;) (and tell the truth)

Best,

Tom

Tom

There is an old saying "Don't try to stand in two canoes at once." Tho if truth be known I do switch back & forth from scientist to lawyer very rapidly - but that is another story.

Anyway - it sounds like you are saying that Haggerty will insure someone as a person for liability - not just a policy on each car. That should work. And I think that is the way it ought to be too. Just be certain that's what you have thru whatever ins. co. that writes your policies.

I have been looking at Sneed for insuring my 3 911's. The quoted price is basically the same between them and Hagerty.

Anyone know of Sneed?
http://www.sneedcompanies.com/index.htm

They are "Brokers" no more, no less. Hagerty is a "Broker" as well although they have made it a point of marketing more heavily in the Collector Car Insurance Market and have done quite well as a specialist underwriter.
None of these "Brokers" are the real "financial back" carrying the load of your policy. Most "majors" have a sub-standard line or a specialty line that is underwritten and priced differently allowing them to market to specific groups.
Having a bad driving record you will not allow you to be pooled with all of Preferred Risks (e.g. State Farm or Allstate). They both have sub-standard companies for these risks. They usually trade under a different name as well.

A major part of my old business was the sub-standard life insurance market. It's quite a bit more tedious and very difficult at times as nobody wishes to hear that he or she are not in perfect health and getting over the "denial hurdle" was a huge factor in the placement of a case.
We worked with companies that specialized in substandard risks. You name it, I've seen it and reality is harsh. Quite honestly I do not miss it as companies became too aggressive and got themselves into trouble in the late 80's and through the 90's. The companies or brokers who had established credibility lost business to the ones that thought they were a sub-standard underwriter. Subsequently a lot of business (cases) got "bought" (a way of saying they wanted the business no matter the consequences) and of course those companies suffered from the reality of statistics, mortality, morbidity, etc. etc.. You cannot beat the numbers unless you have an advantage and that usually meant a great underwriter and knowledgeable and worthy medical director. Enough of this; that's why I sold my business!

Good luck,

Tom

Hagerty is amazing. I just got off the phone with them after running through some issues with my usually amazing insurer (USAA). Hagerty was cheaper, easier to deal with and incredibly responsive. I'm sold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kenikh

Hagerty is amazing. I just got off the phone with them after running through some issues with my usually amazing insurer (USAA). Hagerty was cheaper, easier to deal with and incredibly responsive. I'm sold.

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I have 17 cars insured with them, and they are very easy to deal with :)

I don't get it. IIRC most of you saying that you use Haggerty and like them so much drive your car to more than a car show. According to Haggerty, you're uninsured in those circumstances. What's so great about that?

Not what they told me. As long as you have a primary vehicle that is your commuter and you can prove that it is insured, it is OK to drive the car for recreational purposes, which is prety much any purpose not track related.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911scfanatic

I don't get it. IIRC most of you saying that you use Haggerty and like them so much drive your car to more than a car show. According to Haggerty, you're uninsured in those circumstances. What's so great about that?

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The only thing I was told, and I just got off the phone with them, was it can not be driven to work, or used as a daily driver. If I want to drive down the coast highway after work, or go to an event every weekend, they do not care. It is true you need to have another car, not just your car that you insure with Hagerty. I had to have another car for each licensed driver in my family, (4) and those cars could not be insured by Hagerty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eade Hopkinson

I had to have another car for each licensed driver in my family, (4) and those cars could not be insured by Hagerty.

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I wasn't asked this but it makes sense as we have one car for every driver in our house outside of the 911.

I'm insured by State Farm. I pay about $100 annually.

I am confused (a normal state for me). As much as I want to save money, more important is knowing my insurance compay to step to the plate and cover me for the type of activities I want to do with my car and not cancel me if I mess up.

I asked my "regular" agent (a State Farm Guy) about classic coverage. He told me that they do offer it but it is obviously writted for "garage queens". When we discussed my uses, I was clearly outside of their parameters and a "regular" policy (with limited miles and some commuting allowed) was closer to my needs. There are exclusions for speed events (must be timed) but participation does not affect me (unless I file a claim which certainly will be denied).

It seems to me that the selection of an insurer needs to address the users planned use of the vehicle. This seems to be in the following categories:

1-Parades, club events, weekend drives;
2-Commuting to work while daily driver is ill;
3-Commuting to work (while choosing to leave daily driver at home);
4-Participating in non-competitive "Speed Events" like DE;
5-Participating in comptitive events (i.e. timed or otherwise measured) like AutoX and Rally (?).

All of the classic polices (Haggerty, Sneed, etc) seem to cover #1 above. Beyond that, things get muddy really quickly. Some, it seems, will deny coverage even if you only plan participate in "banned" activities.

To the customer (me), it is hard to get a straight answer as, it is my understanding that your agent cannot bind the company to any details not clearly outlined in the policy. This is the domain of the underwriters who are not as forecoming to commit coverage in writing to the retail customer.

Perhaps some of you in the industry or who have actually filed claims can provide some illumination as to how to sort this out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 72targa

I'm insured by State Farm. I pay about $100 annually.

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But at what value for the car? I can't believe they'd give you an $30,000 indured valuation on the car for $100/yr. My conventional insurance company wanted to give me sticker price minus straight line depreciation! :eek: That left my car valued at about $5000, which wouldn't cover a fender bender.

Hagerty wrote me a stated value policy for $335

Included:
highest liability they offer
stated value of $60,000
no deductible

I checked all of the usual companies and most have too many restrictions. Specifically, I wasn't going to install an alarm system to get coverage, I didn't want a mileage restriction, and I wanted to be able to drive the car to work if it was a nice day and I felt like it and still be insured.

I ended up with Aon, which is a big company and I'm surprised no one has mentioned them. They have a specific collector car line. Modified from stock cars are ok. No appraisal, although I had to submit some online pictures to my local agent. About the only restriction is the car isn't your daily driver. I get an $25k agreed value policy with $250/$500k liability coverage from them for $280 a year. In the Bay Area, no less.

Even better, you can get a online quote and also submit your application online -

http://www.aon.com/us/indiv/collector_car_insurance.jsp

For the database:

I have a Hagerty premium due on my '69. They upped it to $328/year. It was $200 + last year. Maybe they had a lot of insured cars in Louisiana.

I went to the American Hobbyist website and got a quote of $211 for the same coverage. They're part of AAA and you have to be a member.

FWIW,
Sherwood

PS: I went to Aon's website per John's suggestion and received a quote of $100 for same coverage as Hagerty and AAA. Too good to be true?

I have used Parish Heacock Classic Car Insurance for about 3 years. I pay about $300 for my 71 S. They have been very easy to deal with....but, I've never had to file a claim with them. Has anyone had any experience with this insurer? -Mike

One question: How can an insurer of a classic car for say $350 a year, stated value, allow it to be driven as a commuter, to the mall, to the coast, on a fun run, etc for that rate and not lose their shirts in claims? The simple answer is they can't. That's why the impose restrictions. And knowing insurance companies, they don't like to pay if you are doing something out side of the agreed upon rules.

This was borrowed from Leland West:

* Annual Mileage: Annual mileage may not exceed option selected (2,500 or 5,000 miles). If the annual mileage limit is exceeded, your policy may be non-renewed.

* Normal Driving: No coverage while driving to and from work, school or while being modified or restored by a third party.

* Racing & Track Events: No coverage while using the covered auto for racing, gymkhanas, driving school, instructional course or other track events.

* Business Use: No coverage while the covered auto is used for any business or commercial use.

* Coverage Suspension: All policy coverages are annual and may not be suspended in whole or part.

* Parking: The auto must ordinarily be parked overnight in a completely enclosed, locked garage accessible only to you or members of your immediate household. Should you change the covered auto's regular garage, coverage at the new garage is only afforded after it has been submitted for review and express written approval has been given for its use. Should the covered auto be left at another location for sale or at any public parking lot or garage, no coverage is afforded. This also applies to cars that are being restored or customized.

For the Sports Purpose MInded: * Alterations: Any modification of the covered auto except to restore it to its original condition is generally not acceptable. Full details of any changes must be submitted along with the completed application.

So I ask again, how do they keep their rates so affordable for collector cars? That's why I changed to my insurer for full coverage with no restrictions at stated value. Yes, I pay more, but I don't worry about the potential of getting screwed or having to lie to save my butt.

Rick,
Of the websites I recently visited:

All were "Agreed Value" (not the same as a regular policy)
- Most have a mileage limit/year. Some, you had a choice of mileage limit; 1000/2500/5000 miles. One had no limit.
- All had a category for modified cars as well as stock. Most don't insure kit cars or replica cars.
- All had the same general driving restrictions (pleasure only, no business use, not as backup transportation, no racing, etc.)
- Some had a limited DE coverage

Insurance companies have acturarial (sp) departments who do nothing but study the odds for anything that can be insured, then structure their polcies accordingly. They calculate that classic car owners take better care of their cars than the general public, hence a lower risk.

Sherwood

Thanks Sherwood,

Maybe I am not reading Leland West's site correctly, but it does say, "describes our program's special features (like Agreed Value)" "Each policy includes Liability, Uninsured or Underinsured Motorists (unless you reject it), Medical Payments (or No Fault in states where appropriate) and Comprehensive and Collision on an Agreed Amount basis." Mabe this is just a Leland West 'exclusive'.

Haggerty says:
# Usage. Hagerty covers vehicles that are used on an occasional basis -- e.g. club functions, exhibitions, organized meets, tours and limited pleasure driving.

Haggerty on the surface doesn't look nearly as restrictive as LW, but what if I want to drive it to work on a nice day, or for a night out, or to run an errand? Does all that come under 'pleasure driving'? It sounds like a stretch to me, reading between the lines.

Anyone had a claim for one of those 'iffy' conditions with Haggerty who can share their experience?

Thanks,
Rick

AFAIK, most of the big names have the same limitations, be it Leland West, grundy, Hagerty, Parish heacock etc... They are cheap but you need to have a modern daily driver and impose severe restrictions on your "classic" driving. Most painful: you can't ever drive it to work, EVER....

If you're like me and like old cars (356 and 911), it sounds great because you get a full year coverage for $200 or so, and each additional car is only like $100 extra - you pay liability only once... However if you read the fine print, it seems that if they wish to, they can nail you in 10 different ways. Over the phone they all claim it's OK to drive to the mechanic or to the ice cream store, but in reality, read the contract... I am not so comfortable with them anymore (I have Hagerty and they "seem" great), because I tend to want to drive my oldie wherever, whenever, just less often and lower mileage than my daily driver. Sneed has been mentioned on other boards and they actually allow "occasional drives to work to show the car to your friends" ! That sounds more friendly but they cost 30% more than Hagerty for me, and don't do the "one liability" thing...

And regular insurers don't really have a cheaper agreed value low miles policy for old cars, so that you could drive whenever, wherever you want... They warned me a regular policy would value my 911 as $3500 and 356 even less !!!

If anybody's got a solution, I am all ears ! I'd love to be able to drive my 73 to work, say once a week, and the 356 a couple times a month. Gonan give Sneed a shot, we'll see...

As mentioned in a previous post on this thread, I have a stated value policy of 40,000. Of course stated is not the same as agreed. I have to prove that comparables are valued at $40. I also have unlimited mileage with zero restrictions, but have it at a price of $850 a year with high coverage across the board.

I am not in a position to gamble with the chances of being involved in a suit which may result from a spirited run where something goes terribly wrong and costing me everything.

What does the rest of the board know. There must be a happy medium.

Greg and others:

The issue of occasional driving to work is something that I checked into deeply. Leland said No Way. Haggerty said occasionally. What is occasionally? It is less than regularly. So, let's say you have an accident on your way to work, and the insurance company asks you how often you drive your "occasionally insured" early 911 to work. Ya gonna say "Yep, drive it every day." No, because you don't.

And for me, even if I am driving it to work - it is a pleasure to do it, so doesn't that fall under pleasure driving??

But seriously, Haggerty is much more lenient on the valuation and on the terms and conditions than Leland. That being said. You break it on a track, either AutoX or DE, then . . . . . you own the damage.

My agent (on my regular insurance) says that in his 10 12 years as an agent, and he has lots of customers that have classic cars insured with him, he has NEVER had one in an accident.

They must drive them very, very carefully. I know that I keep a wide berth.

larry