Upgrades What Is Acceptable?

Now that all of our cars are worth more, what is now considered acceptable upgrades to our cars? I never understood why pressure fed chain tensioners are considered by many to be acceptable, because your adding something that wasn't there,with the extra external oil lines. What about turbo tie rods or turbo lower valve covers? What about door seals, should one go with the original solid or the superseeded hollow? How about the rivits on the door threshold, what if you use metal rivits instead of plastic? Would this be acceptable? What about adjustable springplates? Some upgrades like stock seats to period correct factory sport seats to me are a no brainer, or any period correct factory accessories(like fogs or muffler skirt,etc.). Some upgrades are not visual like taking a motor and building it to RS specs(2.4 to 2.7) or changing your clock to a quartz movement. What about running 16" fuchs? Its very interesting that alot of us want the correct steering wheel or fuch alloy wheel with the correct date on the part to the car, but at the same time take the MFI off and run carbs on their car, or talk about keeping a car the original color or not. Value is a word that gets mention alot on this board, along with the word original. I know that your car is your car, and one can do what ever one wants to it. I just would like to get the latest or current feedback on this topic from old members like me and new members also. Just so we are clear, I truly do understand: TO EACH HIS OWN, because like I said before, its your car. JIM:) :) :)

Jim,
Great thread starter.
My .02 cents. The beauty of these cars is that they are like Mr. Potato Heads. I mean that in a good way. How many other cars can you retrofit a 20 year newer parts onto such as motors, trannies and suspension (i.e. a mid 1980's 3.2 Carerra into a SWB) without major modifications? Certainly not a Ferrari, Lambo or Alfa. I really like performance upgrades like engines, suspensions and brakes on the early cars, as long as the body and interior are left mostly original (with the exception of safety - such as 3 point harnesses). In my humble opinion, there is nothing more beautiful than a really clean early 911 with it's elegant body lines - and 200hp discretely packed under the hood. Based upon how well these kinds of cars do in track and rallye events, I can assume that I am not alone.
I get a kick out of seeing the look of guys who are proud of having newer sportscars and don't know what hit them when I go sailing by in my oldtimer. I am also a big fan of leaving nice early examples (i.e.1965-73) intact whenever possible.
I guess that explains why I have a 67 911 which I tried to keep as original as possible (albeit with the original 2.0 engine rebuilt to original 2.0S specs and the PeterZ 911R seats). That's also why I just bought the 68L with the 3.0 liter motor and running gear.
I practice what I preach.
Looking forward reading what others think on this subject....

For many years it was common to see ads in the back of Panorama with "all factory updates". Upfixin' The Porsche was a great collection of projects and fixes for our cars. (I hope everyone got a set).
Short of turning a car into a slantnose I don't take issue with upgrades as long as they don't ruin the essence of what the car was originally.

Tom

I have avoided doing anything that can't be undone. Hence, no flares. I believe while you have the car, it's yours to do with as you like. But, when you cut deeply on the car, it passes a certain point. Yes, even flares can be removed, but the scars will remain.

Looking cool, Milt! :) As far as "acceptable" goes..."acceptable" to whom?
Like Milt said, it's your car, do your thing. That said, if flipping the car & turning a profit is your goal, each thing done that isn't "as manufactured" will reduce the pool of buyers. My own car for example...rolled rear fenders, CB radio installed with antenna (truckers can give radar/laser trap warning miles before a V-1), 7" wheels, H1 lights, the Carrera tensioners. All are terrible things to do, according to some who have posted here. I should care? No plans to sell, all is "acceptable" to me. I think Rick Nelson wrote a song about this...something about you can't please everyone, so you should first please yourself.

Only updated chain tensioners are acceptable. Everything else should be original.

Don
_______________________________
1963 356B Super
1969 911 S
1981 911 SC

Anything that Peich, or Ferry or the old man would have done is acceptable...

Wow, there seems to be quite a discrepency of opinions here...

I guess it depends on whether you plan on ever selling the car. Everything else could be seen as being irrelevant, until that decision is made. So...

IMO there are two camps here, whose opinions are dependent on resale, and subsequently there two different markets: 1) the purists (I used to be one, so I understand) who say it needs to be as original as possible - this appears to be a more voracious market willing to pay for the privilege, and 2) the "hot rod" gruppe (I like these cars better myself) who are growing in number and are willing to overlook a few mods as long as they are relatively period correct and add to the performance experience of driving the vehicle.

At this time, there appear to be no hard and fast rules as to what is "acceptable" regarding mods, especially for the "hot rod" gruppe. The purist group is well established, as are their parameters, and they simply need to come to an agreement on a checklist of accepatable mods, which being much smaller should be easy to satisfy. The checklist for the "hot rod"gruppe is longer and apparently still being formulated. Those most involved in the process (wittingly aware or not), are through their actions determining what is important regarding mods and the order in which to apply them. Consequently, there is a feeling among those who spend alot of time (OK, maybe too much time) thinking about such things, as to what looks "right", feels "right", sounds "right", and IS right regarding the acceptabilty of these mods for "hot rod" 911s. This evolution has already happened in the American muscle car collector world, and it's happening to us now. It is these feelings that I find most fascinating because they require all the senses to be invoved, not just a checklist of visual confirmations necessary to provide a foundation for evaluation. It requires a community of like-minded individuals intent on finding the spirit of "Porsche" in 2005/2006. This is what keeps me interested in the topic of this thread, and I'd be disappointed if I was alone. Happy New Year! :)

Really lookin good there Milt!



John

Here is a list of mods going, in my humble opinion, from most acceptable to least:

1. updated chain tensioners (good)
2. Webers carbs (good)
3. increasing displacement while using the same case (good)
4. changes moving in the direction of a RS or R from an S (OK)
5. repainting the same color (OK)
6. color change, especially if you paint it brown (bad)
7. engine/tran rebuild by someone without a clue (bad)
8. using bondo to make body repairs (bad)
9. updating early car to look like 993 or 964 (very bad)
10. installing a Chevy V-8 (very, very bad)


Happy New Year!

Changing VIN tags...VERY UNACCEPTABLE to ALL groups, including law enforcement. :eek:

I think Randy Wells put it well. I'd add the "period correct" as intermediate on the gradient he identified. And I do think it's a gradient, not a polarity. We could also add an "anything goes" racer as distinct from an Rgruppe type person.

I enjoy looking at the concours cars, but I'm far from wanting to do what they do...

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Originally Posted by dhopkins

Only updated chain tensioners are acceptable. Everything else should be original.

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And some don't agree with that:D How about solid tensioners?

I guess, what ever you can return to original if you want.

I also agree with Randy Wells. I have done things to my S to upgrade it including period correct Scheel seats, lowering, suspension upgrades, etc. To many out there, these things would reduce the value of the car. If I was a potential buyer, they woud at least increase the appeal, if not the value to me. Considering that my car is not too original anyway, Im not that concerned.

Now, think about this scenario. Lets say someone has a matching numbers S and would like to put RS steel flares on it. Would this be a bad idea like Milt suggested? Now, what if the car in question had the quarter panels replaced in its past for repair work anyway? Does it matter now? All other things equal, how much would those RS flares affect the value of this less that premium car at resale? :)

So many little variables out there:)

Dave, if done well, I don't know that adding RS flares would reduce the value as much as they would limit your number of potential buyers. You'd have to find a guy who wanted RS flares in the first place, and you'd eliminate those who didn't want them. Previous body work, like quarter panels? Well, any car that has been damaged, then repaired, would also scare away buyers. Bottom line, the less "stories" the car has, the higher it's price will be.

Paul.
So what you are saying is that nicer cars are worth more? I never made the connection hmmmmmm.... :rolleyes: :D

The point with the hypothetical was that there are only so many virgin unmolested cars left out there and they are trading for crazy money.
For the rest of us that own more "average" cars with wear, tear and repair, at what point does originality become irrelevant. The high rollers are not going to buy cars with repair history (repaints, rust repair, etc) anyway, so at that point do the modifications actually add value since the people who would be looking at a non-perfect car could probably be more into the hot-rods?
Another hypothetical I considered. Would a quality ST replica be worth more based on an S as opposed to a T?

I dont think that these are questions that can be answered with any authority since selling any car is essentially about timing and finding the right buyer. Fun to kick the ideas around though.

Without getting to philosophical here, life's short, do what you want. :cool: For me, there are 2 kinds of cars:

Category 1 - those with original factory paint, original factory-built engine, etc. and only minor maintenance-related upgrades and/or repairs.

Category 2 - everything else. If you have a Category 2 car, you can modifiy it to mimic a category 1 car or you can modify into a 'hotrod'. Probably not much difference in relative value. Both are modified and both are still Category 2.

Guys, but what about the Carrera RS? Almost if not all of these cars(especially the lightweights) were rally or race cars and have had many crashes or fender benders, blown engines and rebuilt trans, and have been fixed many times over and it doesn't seem to affect their value at all. Oh and I don't mean LeMans race history either, I'm just trying to say that these cars were work horses(they were driven hard,yes even abused), and many if not all have or had rust and bondo repairs, and don't have thinner glass anymore, and they still go for big bucks. They all have been repainted and some not to the original color or even restored to original built sheet. Alot of tourings have been converted to lightweights, and some RS's have been converted to RSR's. I do notice though that they don't have pressure chain tensioner update kits or carbs for that matter(well now that I think about it I'm sure some were coverted to carbs) . As of right now it seems that whats acceptable with the RS is different than with the S. Isn't the 911S's the next best thing to a RS, or was this an unfair analogy(comparison)? Something to think about with our cars (S,E,T). JIM:)

My two cents worth is that period correct modifications or some mechanical items (i.e. chain tensioner, turbo tie rods) keep it in the acceptable enthusiast "box". If your in a concours world that’s a whole other deal.

OK, good thread, and here's my own dilemna that I'd appreciate your collective opinion....

I've got an unmolested 67 911, tangerine, no sunroof, 4spd, s-brakes. I'm going to try and keep it as period correct as possible, within reason. the question is: should I rebuild the existing front suspension or replace / upgrade to the latter year version?

all opinions welcome....thanks!

tom

I read an interesting quote today, from Craig Jackson of Barrett-Jackson, I think. Basically, he says that you can't pay too much at an auction (or eBay, by extension). "You can only pay 1 bid increment more than market value". Hmmmm, think about that for a minute. :cool:

Jackson assumes market value is what the car sells for at auction. Does this include the auctioneer's cut? There are other definitions as to what market value means which may be more real-world.

Sherwood

Looks like someone violated dhopkins Rule #10, of what not to do to your P-cars.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-...QQcmdZViewItem

The implication is the guy you outbid sets the market value. i.e., you could sell the car to him and only lose the bid increment (+ the secret little 8% buyer commission they never talk about!!) if you had to .... more hype from B-J to help legitimize those guys contemplating a $1.5 million bid for a Hemi Cuda, I suppose.

I can't believe anyone would do that to a Porsche. The Porsche engine is the key to the uniqueness of the car.
Rule number 5 1/2: painting the engine compartment to match the body color.
Don

There's more agreement in this thread than disagreement.

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Originally Posted by dhopkins

I can't believe anyone would do that to a Porsche. The Porsche engine is the key to the uniqueness of the car.
Rule number 5 1/2: painting the engine compartment to match the body color.
Don

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Oh-oh...a note of disagreement. The factory painted engine surrounds black...UNTIL the 1973 model year. Then they were body color. A mute point with BBII, right? ;) ;)

Perhaps too many acceptability police here?

Sherwood

We need an elite group to enforce the rules. They could wear armbands and have a special salute. If you are caught breaking the rules you are excommunicated from the Porsche community. Awards would be given to those who do the most for maintaining the purity of the race. :p

They already exist.:rolleyes: They just don't wear the armbands in public. Disagree with them in public and you get nasty private messages. Now, ask me if I care!:D :D :D

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Originally Posted by 70SATMan

They already exist.:rolleyes: They just don't wear the armbands in public. Disagree with them in public and you get nasty private messages. Now, ask me if I care!:D :D :D

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That's funny! I think it's funny when people are viewing a car and the owner walks away and the remaining crowd goes on to discuss what parts aren't original.

Is the NSA monitoring this thread??

(oops, I guess they are now!)

That car is da bomb.

Some RF equipment control rooms I work in are HEMP sealed.

That parts bin is laden down with hardware.

There,...Now we have the NSA's attention!:D :D :D

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Originally Posted by gymmoe

Guys, but what about the Carrera RS? Almost if not all of these cars(especially the lightweights) were rally or race cars and have had many crashes or fender benders, blown engines and rebuilt trans, and have been fixed many times over and it doesn't seem to affect their value at all. Oh and I don't mean LeMans race history either, I'm just trying to say that these cars were work horses(they were driven hard,yes even abused), and many if not all have or had rust and bondo repairs, and don't have thinner glass anymore, and they still go for big bucks. They all have been repainted and some not to the original color or even restored to original built sheet. Alot of tourings have been converted to lightweights, and some RS's have been converted to RSR's. I do notice though that they don't have pressure chain tensioner update kits or carbs for that matter(well now that I think about it I'm sure some were coverted to carbs) . As of right now it seems that whats acceptable with the RS is different than with the S. Isn't the 911S's the next best thing to a RS, or was this an unfair analogy(comparison)? Something to think about with our cars (S,E,T). JIM:)

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RS's have gotten away with alot of things a T,E,orS could not. Just because there are not that many left.

How many original cars are still alive? I purchased RS #197. For one reason, its almost unbelievable originality. It pains me that I can not justify driving the Piss out of it every day. It has a feel that no clone can every reproduce. I classify it as fine art that I can enjoy sparingly.

Factory mods give many more porsche owers the oportunity to enjoy a car to its full potential. If you have not driven an early car with a MFI 2.7, upgraded suspension and rubber, you have no idea the joy it can bring. Will it drive like an original RS? No. but it depends on what you are looking for. My 2.7 spec E feels faster than my RS, But the RS feels way better when I drive it. There is something special about the way these cars came out of the factory. What are you looking for, great lap times around the track or the original feel of a stock car?

I think every Porsche owner needs a Original car that they can look at, and at least one hot rod they can drive the Piss out of every day.
My .06 cents, for what it is worth.

Joe, if you look at the original manufactered numbers of different model cars, meaning 911 T,E,S and you take in to account that a coupe is a different model than a targa, but a coupe with a sun roof is just an option(doesn't make it a different model), then a RS touring is just a lightweight that is fully loaded. So they made some 1590 73 RSs and only 989 72 911S targas(porsche had to retool to build the 1972 911 because of the oil filler door),so they made many more 73 RSs than 72 S targas(S targas are rarer in any year). Looking at another thread about which car is the car that won; and if a car was a 1972 model first and change into a 73; and two race cars looking exactly the same showing up at the same event with one being a factory cloned posing as an original winner; a car in the Porsche museum with misleading heritage (maybe); it just seems to me that what is acceptable has gone to a new level and that includes the guys from the factory. JIM:confused: :o :eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gymmoe

Joe, if you look at the original manufactered numbers of different model cars, meaning 911 T,E,S and you take in to account that a coupe is a different model than a targa, but a coupe with a sun roof is just an option(doesn't make it a different model), then a RS touring is just a lightweight that is fully loaded. So they made some 1590 73 RSs and only 989 72 911S targas(porsche had to retool to build the 1972 911 because of the oil filler door),so they made many more 73 RSs than 72 S targas(S targas are rarer in any year). Looking at another thread about which car is the car that won; and if a car was a 1972 model first and change into a 73; and two race cars looking exactly the same showing up at the same event with one being a factory cloned posing as an original winner; a car in the Porsche museum with misleading heritage (maybe); it just seems to me that what is acceptable has gone to a new level and that includes the guys from the factory. JIM:confused: :o :eek:

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I will add that of the 1590 RS's ever made only the first 1000 had light wheight body panels, along with many other unique options that disapeared after the 1,000 unit number was reached. One other thing to keep in mind. They only made the RS for 18 months. The rest of the models had suttle changes since 1969. Sure the 1972 is unique because of the Oil Filler cap, I wish they would have left it there.

Joe, so the irony is that most would buy a RS that has been hit and is non matching numbers and with a few updates, that an original S that hasn't been hit and is matching numbers and no updates. What if the choice was between a S that had been hit and was not matching numbers but otherwise stock, and a T that had never been hit but was matching numbers(I pose this question to anyone on this board which would you buy, if you could only buy one, the 911T @ $26,000 or 911S @ $31,000)? Both cars are very clean inside and out and they are the same color silver and same year 1972. The 911T is a coupe(2931 produced) and the 911S is a targa(989 produced). Oh the S does have turbo tie rods,turbo valve covers,and a chain tensioner upgrade, RS door panels, everything else is stock was restored in 2000. The T is stock, no updates was restored in 1999. They both have complete tool kits. Anybody which would you buy?:) JIM:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gymmoe

Joe, so the irony is that most would buy a RS that has been hit and is non matching numbers and with a few updates, that an original S that hasn't been hit and is matching numbers and no updates. What if the choice was between a S that had been hit and was not matching numbers but otherwise stock, and a T that had never been hit but was matching numbers(I pose this question to anyone on this board which would you buy, if you could only buy one, the 911T @ $26,000 or 911S @ $31,000)? Both cars are very clean inside and out and they are the same color silver and same year 1972. The 911T is a coupe(2931 produced) and the 911S is a targa(989 produced). Oh the S does have turbo tie rods,turbo valve covers,and a chain tensioner upgrade, RS door panels, everything else is stock was restored in 2000. The T is stock, no updates was restored in 1999. They both have complete tool kits. Anybody which would you buy?:) JIM:)

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Quick comment about the RS. There are way more than a few updates over an S. If you haven't read the Carrenra RS book by Dr. Thomas Gruber and DR Georg Konradwheim yet, you should.

My .02 cents on your question is the S from an investment standpoint. There is something about the S on the lid. People will pay the money for them. That is why this site is called The Early S Registry not The Early T Registry. As long as the car looks presentable and runs and drives good the S will be worth more in the long run. simply economics. supply and demand.

If I had to pick between the two I would take the T coupe drop in a 3.8 and make a hot rod out of it. I would not own a targa, regardles of the model or the condition.

It is a hard comparison because the Coupe, Targa thing are two totaly different Porsche owners. It's kinda like music, some like country some like rock and roll very few mix the two.

Joe, when I stated that the RS had upgrades, I meant that it wasn't stock or original in my example(turbo tie rods, carbs instead of MFI, 1974 aluminum trailing arms,etc.) and the S was totally original and stock, most would still buy the RS over the S (including me). Since you mentioned that the RS has alot more to it, I disagree, in THIS example: a fully loaded RS touring has only a very few things different than the 1973S. That being that the engine is 2.7 not 2.4 and flared fenders with 7" rims in the rear and a ducktail, thats it. Infact the later RSs started out as 73s body then transformed into RS tourings. Now with the lightweights there are more differences. Even you stated earlier that the differences between model year 911Ss' was suttle from 1969 -73 so going from 2.0 engine to 2.2 to 2.4 must be suttle to you; and I'm stating that going from 2.4 to 2.7 is more suttle than 2.0 to 2.4(just my opinion). You did state that the oil door was a cool factor in 72(what about the front chin spoiler,it did as much for the car as the ducktail did for the RS). Most people would agree that the nearest thing to a RS is the 72-73 911S and in terms of the last batch with De Luxe package aka tourings the differences are closer than people think.:) JIM:D:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gymmoe

Joe, when I stated that the RS had upgrades, I meant that it wasn't stock or original in my example(turbo tie rods, carbs instead of MFI, 1974 aluminum trailing arms,etc.) and the S was totally original and stock, most would still buy the RS over the S (including me). Since you mentioned that the RS has alot more to it, I disagree, in THIS example: a fully loaded RS touring has only a very few things different than the 1973S. That being that the engine is 2.7 not 2.4 and flared fenders with 7" rims in the rear and a ducktail, thats it. Infact the later RSs started out as 73s body then transformed into RS tourings. Now with the lightweights there are more differences. Even you stated earlier that the differences between model year 911Ss' was suttle from 1969 -73 so going from 2.0 engine to 2.2 to 2.4 must be suttle to you; and I'm stating that going from 2.4 to 2.7 is more suttle than 2.0 to 2.4(just my opinion). You did state that the oil door was a cool factor in 72(what about the front chin spoiler,it did as much for the car as the ducktail did for the RS). Most people would agree that the nearest thing to a RS is the 72-73 911S and in terms of the last batch with De Luxe package aka tourings the differences are closer than people think.:) JIM:D:D

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Take some time and do some research. There are so many unique things about the first 1000 or so cars it would take me all day to describe them to you. What about the transmition cooler, the sway bars the light weight panels, etc....

There is a reason why they are selling for over $200k.

At casual glance they are similar, it is under the skin. I know that Schmidt did a full page on this very question about two years ago that was posted here and in one of the Rgruppe newsletters. Here is what the differences are on a series 1,2 RS v.s. a stock 911S, based on a recent phone conversation with Schmidt, who but the way no longer post here do to the lack of standardization in the forum. I have heard that several others are starting a limited access Porsche standards board that will be only technical for all early models and special models throught the 70's. It will be limited access with I think he said like 7-10 moderators such as Glaverbel, GeorgeK, Fryer, Eurotech, St.Peter, and a couple others. It should be outstanding. Back to the RS.

Differences.


50% of the body shell is 12% lighter. All exterior panels, roof, doors, decklid, hood, dash top ext. Schmidt says that the bare body shell with nothing on it is about 75 pounds lighter.
Engine
Transmission with internal pump tall gears
Flares
Reinforced torsion tube
Reinforced trailing arms
Reinforced spindels on the Bilstein front struts
Forged aluminium cross member not cast
Ducktail
Plastic tank
Wheels
I could not write as fast as Schimdt talks so Iam know there are more things I could not write down.
Most important is that these 1,2 series cars were all built as a Homologation special, a lightweight to be weighted and certified before the conversion order was filled to complete as a touring car. Very unique that ALL series one and two car were at one time rolled across the scale at a max weight of 1980lbs, EVERY ONE.

You can say none of the above about a Targa. For those who are interested, Schmidt has been offering his usual excellent knowledge via personal email. It is to bad his outstanding knowledge of these cars wont be shared on this forum, but the new forum as all technical, no chit chat, Iam looking forward to it.

Just FYI:

First, I feel that I can offer a degree of authority as I was one of those guys who loved the idea of the RS from the day in 1972 when I first read about them. I saved every bit of info I could get on them and let me tell you that was not easy in the 70s in the US. I owned my first RS 20 years ago. I liked it a LOT better when most of the guys who had them or knew anything about them were the die hard performance driving enthusiasts. Now that they are so valuable their usefulness is severely diminished.

An now.... Gents, even most of the really mint RS cars have been rebuilt. My first RS had a racing history and a LOT of very hard use. Now it looks like every other pretty much mint condition RS and its history has been lost but it sure looks pretty now. It was restored long enough ago that it now has its own patina and looks like one of those little used, well kept examples. If it were for sale today and represented as totally original and all.... how many "experts" could tell the difference?

The all lightweight RS cars were produced through chassis 1036, not 1000. As far as anyone knows 1036 was the point where they no longer had complete sets of body panels. A LOT of the later cars have a variety of lightweight body panels on them- just not ALL of the specific parts. For example my car, 1122, has the thin roof panel and a few other bits like that. The oil pump was not specific to all RS cars, neither was the plastic fuel tank and a many other bits. It all depended on how the car was ordered and which market it was intended for. Another example- if the car was going to a country that drives on the left side of the road it would have been RHD but you will not find that in THE RS book.

A fun part of these cars is since they really solely intended for the racing program is that there are a lot of little bits that never made print. What does make them so special and so valuable today [until the bomb hits. It will...] is that: 1/They were designed for racing and a resounding success. 2/A stock RS, of any specification, has unique and ideal driving characteristics that are absolutely lovely to experience. 3/A great many of them were produced with unique graphics which set them apart from the rest of the Porsche line.

In terms of the best RS or whatever, you need to realize that EVERY Carrera RS through chassis #1000 was first completed to lightweight specification and driven, individually, to the TUV and specifically registered and weighted. They were then driven back to the assembly lines and whatever changes necessary for the customer order where then done. In other words, if it was ordered to lightweight specification it was left as is. If it was a Touring, the lightweight bits were removed and replaced with suitable parts. So- this TO ME means that the ONLY true Carrera RS Lightweight is through chassis 1000. ALL of these specific cars were originally constructed and registered in lightweight form. Think for a second. This means that any car up through #1000 could "properly" be put in lightweight trim as that is how the car was FIRST built and driven. It was only afterwards that each M472 got its trim so the ORIGINAL construction of everyone was as a lightweight. I think this is much more significant than a later car with a standard body which was sold in lightweight trim BUT with all regular [standard thickness] body panels and such.

Ok. That was my two bits worth on RSs.

If you are talking about the "whys" on the Early S Registry, you need to realize that it was formed to keep these cars in one piece, enjoy them and because the early S cars were in a unique highly tuned state for street cars. I doubt many hear realize this but IN THE DAY they were a real bitch to keep running clean and driving smooth. We are talking pre CD boxes and all and they were pretty much the domain of real enthusiast owners who were willing to put up with having to always drive at high revs and use them or be running on 4-5 cylinders.

On originality. To each his own. I do agree that it is nice to keep a really nice stock 911 as such. There are so many already modified that are available for personalization.

I don't see why anyone would be a picky purist and have Carrera chain tensioners as an acceptable mod. The later SC/Turbo units with a set of chain locks were fine. In fact, if upgraded internally with the larger right side chain wheel bushing, almost never fail. If you have them with chain locks you have a 100% stock looking engine and no fears of the dreaded chain jumping a tooth. If you care....

I am disheartened to readabout a new "insider- expert" group forming that will lock everyone else out. I thought the whole idea here was sharing opinions, experience, and expertise. A group entirely composed of "experts" sounds like a pretty boring group of elitists. ...and WHO is going to determine who IS the genuine expert anyway? Because THEY claim to be? I have seen more than one self-appointed expert whose knowledge lacks depth. Well, I hope they have fun with each other.. If I somehow misinterpreted the idea I apologize, if not it would sound like they deserve each other.

Last-really, this time I mean it- a good magazine for those of you who are interested in value/collectiblity/and all the other related issues: Sports Car Market. Many years ago it was the Alfa Romeo Market Letter and has evolved into a slick publication. It too sometimes is a bit elitist but it is a wealth of information about a lot of these subjects as they apply to enthusiast cars and owning them.

Meanwhile I hope the enthusiasts here remember to KEEP THE REVS UP!

John Rice

Here, here. John.

Nice rant. :-)

Sherwood

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Originally Posted by john rice

KEEP THE REVS UP!
John Rice

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I'll give you a "phat" amen for that and then some John!

I am no expert (obvious) but I certainly enjoy the info on this forum. As a relative latecomer to these cars, I like all the info I can get and drink it up. To me, it would be a shame for a few to disembark and not allow great info to be shared by all.

I understand there are frustrations and personality conflicts here. Hey, they are part of life and anywhere you go. Some times the repartee (sp?) is even fun to read , but should never get personal. Cars are great, but they hopefully aren't a person's entire meaning of self. Misers are fine, but they -like everyone end up dead anyway, they just die with more money.

It would be too bad if alot of great info "died" with a person or small group while there are others who enjoy the info and look forward to it.. Personally, I get alot more enjoyment out of my toys or posessions when others enjoy them. Things that are locked away, really become just more things...

My .02

One interesting thing about the '73 RS cars is P AG did not use a lot of the light wt. techniques used for the 911 R.

The new site that Jeff was describing to me is not going to be limited by viewers it will be monitored by a chosen group of experts.

Everyone benefits from information that is correct and reliable. I know very little about the tech. side of things. Would it not be nice if a site was developed that would be mediated and monitored by a group of experts that have way more knowledge than most of us do. The threads would stay on task and people could get true and correct information quickly.

The whole point that I was venting for Jeff is chit chat is great but why not develop a site that is monitored by a chosen few to protect the credibility of the site itself.

Jeff is a very technical person that is passionate about early cars. He has studied every aspect of an early car along with re-building cars from the ground up. He knows as much as anyone I have ever met.( I bet there are a few people on this site that would probably agree with me.) With out his knowledge many of my projects would have taken way more time and energy.

I can't wait for his site to come on line. I am sure most of us on this site will be viewing his site as well. Is Jeff's opinion sometimes controversial, of course, that is Jeff, controversial or not the guy is usually right on.

Don't you think there is room for an ask the experts, 911 site? I do.

"The new site that Jeff was describing to me is not going to be limited by viewers it will be monitored by a chosen group of experts."

Joe,
Who's Jeff? I might have missed the link. What's the website? Who are the experts? Experts in what field?

I just don't know.
Sherwood

Joe, if you reread my last reply, I admit that there is much more differences with the lightweights, I was refering to the De Luxe touring AFTER the first 1000 or so built(in other words in the last 500 or so). When these cars came fully loaded, there is not much difference than the 1973 911S. These RSs started life as a 73S body, they had door pockets like the 73S, sun roofs,twin batteries,same glass,same type of steel body panels,same seats,same carpet,same trans. The only difference was the ducktail,rear flared fender with 7"rims ,and the 2.7 engine and the difference between the 2.7(911/86 engine) and the 2.4(911/53 engine) was suttle,in fact these engines are identical in every way except for 90mm bore pistons and Nikasil cylinders.In fact did you know that the specific output of the RS 2.7 engine was actually slightly lower than that of the S 2.4,but yes I know the total horsepower was increased from 190 DIN to 210 DIN, thats why I said specific output(if you don't believe me you can read this in THE PORSCHE 911 STORY by Paul Frere, pages 54-55. Joe I think the problem is you keep talking about the first 1000 or so (aka Lightweights) and I'm talking about the next 500 or so that were fully loaded tourings.These cars are still 73 Carrera RSs and go for alot of money they are just not much different than the 73 911S,except for the few(smile) things I mention. If you don't believe me thats cool,but do me a favor and ask you friend Jeff this specific question: What is the difference between a 73 RS De Luxe Touring, fully loaded ,built between 1100-1590 and a 73 911S fully loaded also? Please don't say oil cooler on trans because alot didn't have this or side graphics. :cool: :cool: :D JIM:)

RE: "The new site that Jeff was describing to me is not going to be limited by viewers it will be monitored by a chosen group of experts."

I could write a book but the issues were covered in Psychology 101.

Tom

All I can say is that John Rice's post is one of the best things I have read on this forum in a very long time.

Boy, am I EVER biting my tongue here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VIper Green E

Would it not be nice if a site was developed that would be mediated and monitored by a group of experts that have way more knowledge than most of us do. The threads would stay on task and people could get true and correct information quickly....
Don't you think there is room for an ask the experts, 911 site? I do.

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Sure, this is a fine idea. What I would ask is why it cannot be part of the Early S Registry website? All it would require is the establishment of an "Ask the experts" section of this forum, with moderators established for the posts, or just the addition of moderators for the existing "Technical Info" section of this forum.

I really do not see why there is a need for another site. If there are problems with "standards" or incorrect information, or a dislike of "chit chat" or threads deteriorating or "tangentiating", this can be solved with moderation, as long as people are willing to take on the task. Leaving the other "General" and "Off Topic" forums unmoderated for those types of threads would be the best of both worlds, IMHO. I think diluting the sources for early 911 info with multiple websites is a mistake.

TT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dhopkins

We need an elite group to enforce the rules. They could wear armbands and have a special salute. If you are caught breaking the rules you are excommunicated from the Porsche community. Awards would be given to those who do the most for maintaining the purity of the race. :p

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I hope the Expert Elite don't catch wind of the wicked cool '66 that I just finished up. I'm so proud!

...and I double dare the faux Germans to find fault with this '70 S that I'm just finishing up. And yes, that is a real gen-yoo-wine ducktail...with just a "light respray". :)

This baby's gonna fetch all the money!

This is my '67S with all kinds of improvements. Only 50k original miles. Original paint. The girls love it. :cool:

Jens, I know I'd never have the means to build something like that wicked cool '66...but could you post more details of the red 944 next to it? LOL here!
But gawd forbid if we get too chatty while discussing our hobby...this is SERIOUS stuff!

"chosen few"

If Jewish people want to set up their own web site for early 911's I see no reason why not... we can also have 911 sites for other ethnic groups.

All this B.S. is killing the credibility of this site.

Keep it up, more and more people will find some other way to get information. And the Jack off's can continue to bantter.

The question IS "Who is posting the BS?"

I count a few people who think some of the references you used objectionable. maybe you'd like to explain...

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhh...this has gotten off topic. About time to lock this thread and move on in my opinion. I am unsubscribing...now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VIper Green E

All this B.S. is killing the credibility of this site.

Keep it up, more and more people will find some other way to get information. And the Jack off's can continue to bantter.

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We have a technical and a general forum. If we can't B.S. or J.O. in the general forum what the heck is it for?:confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sithot

A website itself doesn't create credibility. The site will only be as credible as the "experts" that are "chosen".Tom

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And if the "chosen" choose themselves the're not really chosen.:D

Just B.Sn here of course but, seriously I can just see how the answers would flow to the unworthy...

Can you explain how...."NO! Now shut up!"

There have been plenty of those kinds of responses and criticizing rants here, on these boards. Who's gonna moderate your moderators?

I'm all for learning technical minutia but, I'm not going to give myself a hemmorage over it. Sounds like marketing voodoo to me.

Wow, if you look at how this Thread started, and with 2,102 views and 63 replies later, where it is now, its just unbelievable the tangent we are all on. I guess this is acceptable(smile). Please Eric L. and Jeff S. come on back to the board with replies, don't STIFLE yourselfs.:confused: :o JIM

Hey Jim, by now you've figured out that even in this specialized forum there are widely ranging standards of "correctness" in how to modify an early 911.

1- bone stock restoration

2- period performance and accessory upgrades and bolt-ons

3- evolutionary performance and safety upgrades

4- evolutionary styling updates

5- horrendous chop and slash contrivances

6- nightmare flared, metalflaked, winged, nipped and tucked monstrosities....

It really depends on what you want to achieve and who you want to satisfy.

Suspension, brakes, engine, wheels and tires, tails and spoilers, seats and steering wheels, flares, lighting, radios...all benefit from upgrading. It really depends on whether you want to keep it stock or want the enhanced performance. Somewhere in the mix you need to find your own compromise.

I like the idea of using period race enhancements to get there, but have you priced 917 brakes lately? :eek:

Jens, Excellent last point about the 917 brakes. I love the early SWB's and would love to have a 911R engine back there, but with the cost of 12 plug dizzy, and 911R 7 inch wheels, I can obtain almost the same hp with a 3.0 liter SC engine with Webbers, and a set of later model Fuchs 7 wheels for a lot less money. Of course it will not be the same, but it might be almost as fun - for about $300k less. And I won't be afraid to drive it hard for fear of trashing my investment...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sithot

A website itself doesn't create credibility. The site will only be as credible as the "experts" that are "chosen".

In reading postings, blogs etc. you have to consider the source and everyone has to decide for themselves what information is valuable and reliable.

Tom

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Tom, This and John Rice's post get my nod as the best two posts of this thread. Why didn't I quote John's post? Bandwidth reasons only...:D

Jens - thx for getting it back OT....

I'll add that there are fads & fashions in all the categories you listed... or you could call it changes over time - maybe cyclic - in what is preferred by most.

One example is the widespread use of Guards Red in the 1980's (I'm now getting that removed from my car -- it was flaking and bubbling off anyway).

Another example is the slant nose conversion - I'll bet that was done to some early cars.

Today, we see people changing their bumper car to look like an early car. And others putting ultra-wide fenders on their cars, with a negative attitude towards the slant-noses and to some extent, towards the Guards Red cars. This may all change again in a decade or two...

If you don't like Guards Red, you can say it is India Red, as I think it was called in some markets. Both have the Porsche color code of 027. In Peter Morgan's book, the 1974 standard color Guards Red is identified as Indischrot, with the color code 027.

By putting down Guards Red (India Red) you are also throwing a gut punch to the owners of 30 '73 Carrera RS's (if they still exist), which is the number that originally came in India Red. So don't necessarily tread on that sacred ground as there may be some folks around the world who will have a curled lower lip.

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg. #434

I'm happy to have a reasonable number of GR or IR cars... but am always pleased to tread on sacred ground or curled lower lips...

It's interesting to me to think about this question relative to the Corvette crowd and Bloomington Gold. If you're trying to attain that level of perfection, no upgrades are acceptable (correct?). I'm in Milt's camp. Change as you wish but keep all of the original parts and don't cut the tub so that a future owner may put it back to "original" (per the Kardex?) as desired. Otherwise, go out and enjoy the darned thing! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bob tilton

That's funny! I think it's funny when people are viewing a car and the owner walks away and the remaining crowd goes on to discuss what parts aren't original.

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This is known as the "It's a nice car, but.." syndrome....:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

I read an interesting quote today, from Craig Jackson of Barrett-Jackson, I think. Basically, he says that you can't pay too much at an auction (or eBay, by extension). "You can only pay 1 bid increment more than market value". Hmmmm, think about that for a minute. :cool:

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I just read this and had to comment. This is a scheister's ploy! His statement loses credibility for every outside influence that is exerted on the buying population (in the case of a B.J. auction). People make dumb decisions when you put a camera in front of them or thousands of cheering people in the same room as them.

Mr. Jackson's statement only has validity in a setting where the bidders are totally isolated, completely informed and there are no plants.

Erik

What is this, Jim? You sent me to college trying to make your car as OH-ri-gi-nal as possible and now you're askin' a question like this? You've got to be kiddin' me, Toast. ;)

In answer to your question I think there are three major schools of thought - Period Correct, Hot Rod and User Friendly.

The first is the "Period Correct" way of thinking. This method basically adheres to the idea that you can use any upgrade from the general period of your car to improve performance/usablity. This generally includes RS flares, engine upgrades (bore/stroke/tensioners/oil pump/etc.), 901 -> 915 tranny updates, oil cooler, etc. I followed this theory (mostly) with my 914.

The Hot Rod way of doing things is pretty much self explainatory. You take the best/coolest stuff from any era and go Hog Wild! This is the R Gruppe way of thinking and, personally, my favorite. I tend to favor this method because it takes advantage of Porsche's "evolution" style of engineering. If the parts from the later years are better, and they can either bolt on or be made to fit with minimal fabrication, then why not take advantage of the engineering accomplishments? This allows Porsche owners the best of both worlds - late-model performance, safety, reliability, etc. with early-model styling, driving experience, etc.

I think the User Friendly method is the least gung-ho method of upgrading. In essence, this method basically uses only the improvements that are necessary to keep the cars running properly and safely. This would include (but is not limited to) tensioners, brakes, seat belts, etc. Little stuff that is necessary to make these cars livable in the today's automotive climate.

Maybe I missed the point of this question, but I like to think that Porsche evolved their cars for a reason. It is our DUTY to take advantage of the fact that the improved parts of the later cars can easily be made to work on our early cars. I believe that, if done properly and tastefully, these changes will truly improve the driving experience and allow us to continue to enjoy these cars in real-world situations for many years to come.

And while I sit here and advocate the upgrades I think back to the all the bone-stock early cars I've driven - solid tensioners, Zenith carbs, 30-year old bushings and all - and can't deny the purity of engineering that these cars were ... are ... will continue to be. I just wish I could afford more than one :cool:

Now the cars are even worth more today. Again I ask what is acceptable in term of upgrades?

You ask what is acceptable, but on who's terms or judgement? Upgrades in what area . .. performance, comfort, resale value?

I think these are acceptable upgrades-

1. Non-destructive upgrades (the work could easily be returned to original).

2. Work that Porsche would have done then, and still does now. I.e. pressure fed chain tensioners, gear sets, sway bars, suspension upgrades, shocks, wheels, tires. The Customer Centers today do "upgrades" according to the customer's wishes, and acceptable to Porsche's performance standards and TUV.

3. Ones that bear the test of time and have broadest adoption, are also acceptable with Porsche Club's different classes of judging. They can be very specific, strict and adhering to exactly as it left the factory door. Unaltered.


For me? I work hard at staying very close to how the car was produced, and then adding or enhancing certain components- sway bars, shocks, wheels.

Shocks: my car was built with Koni shocks. I replaced them with Bilstein struts and shocks. Why? better performance, personal preference. Would have the factory put these shocks on in production? Yes.

Wheels: I have wider rears. Why? better performance, personal preference. Would have the factory put these on in production? No, but the car would have been taken to special wishes department to have them installed. This department did and does changes to customer's cars.

Engine: A lot of engines have been "changed" over the years. Is a car with an larger than the standard engine a detriment? That would depend on the change. If the original motor case is retained (matching numbers) with the engine that has performance upgrades, that is best. I.e. increasing engine liters, say from a 2.0 to 2.2 I feel it is very acceptable upgrade and will not hurt the value of that car. Unless there is a consideration for originality.

Unaltered, original cars are the ones most often that are worth the most.

Whether it is a barn find or in a collection, an exactly original car is fascinating. They are time capsules of how these cars were 45-50 years ago.

It is very rare to find one of these cars that hasn't been "worked on". Over that period of time a lot of people working on one car has its impact. No matter how well intentioned, more times than not these cars witness work having been done on them.

If repairs and service have been performed according to factory standards and practices then no concerns. If a vehicle was maintained by other repair centers, that could have an potential impact to the value of the car.

The NCRS/Bloomington Gold comment was appropriate. Neither organization encourages perfection. Both encourage originality. I've seen cars get massive deduction for paint that was too good.

The NCRS also operates with a huge data base. They know what was original. They've done their homework.

Porsche Club of America has a much looser set of guidelines. "It it's close it's ok." The car that was judged to be the best 911 survivor a few years back had a new front pan and had also been repainted. That would not happen at a Corvette or Ferrari judging session. Each marque seems to have developed their own criteria as to what is original. That's fine. It's probably the way it should be.

Most of cars here are pretty basic. The Germans made a lot of them. Some though enter the category of "significant". What I do to my 1973 911 really doesn't matter. What someone does to a LeMans winner does matter. There are no easy answers.

As I've worked with museums over the years I've come up with some definitions that seem to help.

Preservation: The essence of preservation is stabilization. Preservation is an effort to decrease the rate of deterioration. It involves maintaining the condition of the car.

Conservation: Conservation is an intervention to protect what’s there. Conservation is an attempt to manage, or at least reduce, the effects of decay that takes place on a daily basis. This is very similar to preservation except that conservation involves some type of active intervention.

Restoration: A restoration is an intervention that permanently changes the car. It’s an attempt to return the car to some previous state. In some cases this may be a state that never actually existed. When you replace significant parts, whether original to the period or not, you’re altering the historical integrity of the artifact, or car. The original manufacturer’s work is no longer intact and the research value of the artifact, or car, has been reduced.

If you decide to permanently change the car there is no going back. That's why you need to give a lot of thought to whether a restoration is appropriate. A restoration is not a bad thing. It's just a big deal thing.

On the other hand it probably doesn't matter what most of us do to our cars. There are any number of perfect 1973 911s out there so no matter what I do to my car there will always be some historically correct cars in existence.

I actually like the FIA approach to race cars. They've given up on trying to determine what's original. They look at cars to see if they're period correct. And, they have the necessary data base to do this.

Richard Newton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

I read an interesting quote today, from Craig Jackson of Barrett-Jackson, I think. Basically, he says that you can't pay too much at an auction (or eBay, by extension). "You can only pay 1 bid increment more than market value". Hmmmm, think about that for a minute. :cool:


The implication is the guy you outbid sets the market value. i.e., you could sell the car to him and only lose the bid increment (+ the secret little 8% buyer commission they never talk about!!) if you had to .... more hype from B-J to help legitimize those guys contemplating a $1.5 million bid for a Hemi Cuda, I suppose.

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Maybe, but this would be more valid without an open bar for the bidders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gulforange

Now the cars are even worth more today. Again I ask what is acceptable in term of upgrades?

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H1's always demonstrate good taste.

Cheers,
John

Was just reading thru the responses to this thread
and I noticed an opinion I had contributed back in
2005 to this very same thread! It's amazing to me
how long I have been doing
the same thing though my opinions have changed.
Don
-/-/-/
1970 triple-black 911T
2006 Cayman S

There is no wrong or right to this. We all have our differing opinions.
I have just bought Mac's 2.4S. A car which has had a beautiful restoration carried out with much thought, love and attention.
So one could argue that it has lost its identity or originality.
Why would I pay so much money for such a thing.
Because I feel like I have just purchased a brand new 1973 2.4S.
I can relive that era that I was far to young and did not have the money to enjoy.
My 67S I will probably run Flat 6's on when the car finally gets restored and run a decent size tyre.
Why would I want to spend at a guess $10,000 on finding a set of 4.5's which I am guessing ran tubes.
I have a set of 4.5 steels that I will get re-chromed. I think the Fuchs were an option but I could be wrong.
My 65 FIA historic race car.
What a lovely car that is.
Driving it as Porsche intended I feel honoured.
It runs replica lights, horn grilles and script.
The originals I have safely stored away.
Interior of course is a cage, a fire proof headlining in matching material to the race seats.
It is a functional road legal race car and I love it.
For me the 911 offers the most tactile and visceral experience over any other car I have ever driven.
Use ability and enjoyment is the key.
What else are we doing it for

We're assuming that all the early cars are equally significant. That's simply not the case. My 1973 911 is simply not all that important to the history of transportation.

We might want to look at the National Register of Historic Places. A property listed in the National Register, or located within a National Register Historic District, is unique. The National Register of Historic Places (NRHP) is the United States federal government's official list of districts, sites, buildings, structures, and objects deemed worthy of preservation.

Not every building in the United States is considered significant enough to be registered as a historic building. I grew up in a very nice home that no longer exists. The city decided that my childhood home really wasn't all that important and tore it down.

Some 911s are more significant than others. Some are like my old childhood home. That means there are different rules as to how these cars are treated.

Now alls we have to do is figure out how to define significant. :)

Richard Newton
FIA Rules for Historic Racing

dhopkins, you gave an opinion in 2005 and now your opinions have change, please enlighten us ( in other words what is your opinion now )

I submitted this question to Beverly Hills Car Club and they said flares, tails, VW motors, and aftermarket seats, especially any OEM seat from an AMC product was acceptable.

Frank.....so a V8 conversion may not even be acceptable to them .......or was it so normal to them that they did not even think to mention it :D

My silly opinion: in anything the public will only accept small incremental changes. Making giant leaps is always too much for most to handle in the short term. Look at the changes R Gruppe was doing circa 2005. Those alterations would've been taboo in an earlier time. And now in 2016 the trend is toward totally stock. There's a rhythm and cycle of fashion to everything.

Personally I intend to do whatever I want with my historically insignificant rust bucket. Modern technology has improved certain aspects that don't detract from the look and experience of these little cars. In part because my better half will be more inclined to ride, the car can be made a bit safer (modern, three point safety belts, et cetera), and because I enjoy making it my own.

[QUOTE=Puma;890017]Personally I intend to do whatever I want with my historically insignificant rust bucket.QUOTE]

Love that. It pretty much sums it up for me:)

After seeing Barrett Jackson auction in Scottsdale AZ with all the resto-mods and the prices they are now getting, and how some even got more than an restored original car of the same make. Do you think our Porsche could ever do the same?

More roads than Museums............and the kids don't care.....cliff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gulforange

After seeing Barrett Jackson auction in Scottsdale AZ with all the resto-mods and the prices they are now getting, and how some even got more than an restored original car of the same make. Do you think our Porsche could ever do the same?

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Tastes are changing and I saw this resto-mod thing coming a few years back. I think the old numbers/date codes slaves are a dying breed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frank Beck

I submitted this question to Beverly Hills Car Club and they said flares, tails, VW motors, and aftermarket seats, especially any OEM seat from an AMC product was acceptable.

---

Sure destined to be my favorite bit of writing this night, a night spent editing…

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gulforange

After seeing Barrett Jackson auction in Scottsdale AZ with all the resto-mods and the prices they are now getting, and how some even got more than an restored original car of the same make. Do you think our Porsche could ever do the same?

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A well and tastefully done hot-rod 911 (or 356 or 914! or 912) is far more appealing to me than a perfect stocker. YMMV, but I'd pay more for the hot rid if it's right and to my taste—so I can see where others would too. It has to be goooooood, though, and I suspect the ones that pull the prices are not only done well, but have broad appeal. They usually look "right," but still like something the factory could have or would have done.

Ahh but in the end you have a car Porsche never built. A fantasy no matter how well done. As far as acceptable upgrades goes, well obviously, that is up to those individuals that make up the market. For me clean classic lines are a requisite. Flames and stripes and sponsor stickers are not. I don't want a car that screams look at me I got lost on my way to the track. A poser (poseur) wagen. Mechanical upgrades for me are the most appealing. But its all in good fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steve shea

Ahh but in the end you have a car Porsche never built. A fantasy no matter how well done. As far as acceptable upgrades goes, well obviously, that is up to those individuals that make up the market. For me clean classic lines are a requisite. Flames and stripes and sponsor stickers are not. I don't want a car that screams look at me I got lost on my way to the track. A poser (poseur) wagen. Mechanical upgrades for me are the most appealing. But its all in good fun.

---

Flames and sponsor stickers? Not my bag. I'm not much one for stripes, either, and am with you on the mechanical upgrades > visual "upgrades."

But...there is something to a well turned out car, and dead stock Porsches rarely do it for me. Done right, the details always get me: Sugar Scoop delete, right wheels/tires (as in, the customer sport dept might have sold those in the day), sport muffler, ride height, etc. Show me a 1971 911 with those four things done next to a stocker, and all other things being equal, I'll take the "mildly optimized" car every time—and would probably pay more for it. This move back to sugar scoops may be the death of me...the US 911 was a car the factory never wanted to build but had to. Ditto for US ride height and other items, such as US lenses, bumper guards, etc.

Ferry Porsche said he liked to see Porsches modified.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stout

. . . the US 911 was a car the factory never wanted to build but had to. Ditto for US ride height and other items, such as US lenses, bumper guards, etc. . . .

---

Hm

The US has been Porsche's biggest market since at least the 50's. So I would think that Porsche will 'want to build' whatever it can sell . . . and if that means cheaper lights or a few mms of ride-height, then so be it

Same goes for AC + automatic transmissions, power windows + cup-holders . . .



. . . or air-bags + emission controls


As far as Porsche is concerned --- the 'best' Porsche? . . .



. . . is the one that they can sell


:rolleyes:


.....

Hey Stout I like your mild approach. My current favorite is the 2.4S Grundmodell leight-bau M471 done by the factory. I think Monaco 1 owns it. At first glance it looks stock; all upgrades look easily reversible but for the lid latches. Would be a good car for 000, way more rare than an RS. I have another suggestion for an article as well. It goes to the roots of Porsche and would have stunning photography. Should I reup for 2018?
]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frankr

Tastes are changing and I saw this resto-mod thing coming a few years back. I think the old numbers/date codes slaves are a dying breed.

---

Singer saw it too and have been able to get a lot of money for their revisioning of the 911. All factory cars are compromises, to make the car appeal to the largest audience. If you race your car, you want a different engine and suspension setup than if you commute to work in it or if you enjoy weekend hooliganism on your favourite back road. The resto mod approach preserves the essence of what people love in the old cars (primarily nostalgia at this point) and improves them to modern standards so they are more robust and practical and can handle better than "in the day". Sometimes it is a relatively invisible part like a bushing or steering rack tie rod. Other times it is a whole suspension, flares or radical engine.

A well done resto mod is a thing of beauty and if it captures the essence of the old car and improves upon it, I can see why many (including me) would see value in that. The matching number craze has its place too, but obviously it would be foolish for me to mod my '73S into a hot rod. But for other less valuable 911s, why not hot rod and improve the breed? Clearly a lot of people are beginning to see the wisdom of that.

Ravi

I think we may have settled on the new moniker..... resto-hot-modAttachment 447844

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LongRanger

Hm

The US has been Porsche's biggest market since at least the 50's. So I would think that Porsche will 'want to build' whatever it can sell . . . and if that means cheaper lights or a few mms of ride-height, then so be it

Same goes for AC + automatic transmissions, power windows + cup-holders . . .



. . . or air-bags + emission controls


As far as Porsche is concerned --- the 'best' Porsche? . . .



. . . is the one that they can sell


:rolleyes:


.....

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Yeeeeah, now we are getting into semantics—aren't we?

I don't believe U.S.-spec 911s were the 911s Porsche that wanted to build—they were the 911s that Porsche had to build if it wanted to sell 911s in the U.S. market. And of course it did, for the reason you state above—though we are no longer Porsche's biggest market. If Porsche KG or AG could build one car worldwide, it would have—just as PAG would now. But various markets require various changes, which cost more, reduce profit margin, and may make the car lose power, handle worse, weigh more, or look uglier. Even today, executives tisk-tisk about the orange front side markers required on new U.S. Porsches. I can only imagine what they thought about smog controls, raised ride height, giant bumper guards, DOT speedometers, etc. (I think we are more or less skinning the same cat.)

And there are plenty of cars those within Porsche wanted to build but couldn't for any number of reasons. I've been learning about more and more about these lately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steve shea

Hey Stout I like your mild approach. My current favorite is the 2.4S Grundmodell leight-bau M471 done by the factory. I think Monaco 1 owns it. At first glance it looks stock; all upgrades look easily reversible but for the lid latches. Would be a good car for 000, way more rare than an RS. I have another suggestion for an article as well. It goes to the roots of Porsche and would have stunning photography. Should I reup for 2018?
]

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PM sent! ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stout

. . . Yeeeeah, now we are getting into semantics—aren't we? . . .

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Nope --- not me, anyway

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stout

. . . I don't believe U.S.-spec 911s were the 911s Porsche that wanted to build—they were the 911s that Porsche had to build if it wanted to sell 911s in the U.S. market . . .

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'Believe'? . . . huh? Well/then . . .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stout

. . . And there are plenty of cars those within Porsche wanted to build but couldn't for any number of reasons. I've been learning about more and more about these lately . . .

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Meanwhile --- back at the car lot . . . here's another set o' products that Porsche sells, now . . .


Wonder why you 'believe' these were built?


:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by michaelaiellosr

. . . think we may have settled on the new moniker..... resto-hot-mod . . .

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Tut-tut-tut . . .


. . . 're-imagined'




...........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stout

. . . If Porsche KG or AG could build one car worldwide, it would have—just as PAG would now. But various markets require various changes, which cost more, reduce profit margin, and may make the car lose power, handle worse, weigh more, or look uglier. . .

. . . And there are plenty of cars those within Porsche wanted to build but couldn't for any number of reasons . . .

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Sure-sure . . . like/maybe -------- sales? . . .


Porsche 911 - 8970 Sold

'The Porsche 911 is one of the world's most quintessential sports cars, and 2017 was a decent sales year for the model in the US. But the automaker sold more than 21,000 Macan crossovers in 2017' . . .

From 'Best Cars Nobody Bought' . . .
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...-2017/?slide=5



Psst --- + check-out Cayman/Boxster numbers . . . . . . . . . . eeeeeewwwww



Oh-oh --- and just wait 'till the all-electrics show up . . .




...

Rick mentioned "Just wait until the all electrics show up"

they already have - i have seen articles and videos on at least three different approaches
Does this modification cross the line as to what is acceptable? :) http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a32034/this-electric-porsche-911-targa-uses-a-battery-from-a-crashed-tesla/

or this SC? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HughH

. . . "Just wait until the all electrics show up" . . .

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I saw my first hybrid Porsche Cayenne --- what . . . 3 years, ago, now? Was always curious if/how/when any KERS tech would show up in a street car. Hasn't, yet

On the other hand, electric is most-definitely on the menu, now --- courtesy of Tesla. Curious to read what Stout believes Porsche 'wants' to do here . . .


. . . meanwhile --- back in Stuttgart . . .
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/20...py-photos-news

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HughH

. . . Does this modification cross the line as to what is acceptable? :) . . .

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Talk about 're-imagining' . . .


. . . = yikes!




....

Drove this fuel cell vehicle at the Millbrook test facility on alpine route and high speed banked track last summer. Interesting developments in hydrogen fuel cell technology

https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/ne...i/meet-mirai#1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stout

. . . there is something to a well turned out car, and dead stock Porsches rarely do it for me. Done right . . . I'll take the "mildly optimized" car every time—and would probably pay more for it . . .

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That's it, isn't it? Personalizing, improving --- 'optimizing' . . .

. . . making something one's own


Done well = a work of art --- just not always the case . . .

. . . hence the OP's original question?


Put it Another Way --- one person's Van Gogh is another's vandalism





I like strolling through the cars parked at a Porsche show . . . just looking for a regular/'dead stock' car . . . never mind an 'original'

Kinda rare to see either, anymore




Lotsa Pretty Monsters, though

:rolleyes:



..........

Thank goodness Ferry wasn't satisfied and was willing to improve VW's, then Porsche's with hot rodded VW engines, and then Porsche's with Porsche engines. As cool as these cars are, they are cars. Have fun with them while you can. The future of internal combustion engine cars have an opaque future.
As for myself, I like building my own version of my dream car. For me the fun of owning a car is it's yours to enjoy. Outside of the first of, the last of, race cars of significance, 1 or 2 of's (914 flat eights, etc) most of these cars have a limited road going future. If you don't own a car that a museum will want down the road, it won't matter if the car is stock or modded.

I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself-Ferdinand Porsche

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmpski

. . . I like building my own version of my dream car . . .

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You're not alone . . .
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...od-driver-quot



;)




.......

I've had some strange conversations via the interwebs, but few if any stranger than this. Can't tell if humor, or? As for interpretations of "wants" > "believes" > "has to" > "etc"...perhaps a certain 10,000x microscope has a smear on its lens.

It's Sunday...enjoy it!

And the bell rings for the end of the 5th on this heated night here in Kinshasa, Zaire.

Both parties return to their respective corners.

Word from the Upgrade corner is that the Purists got away with a low blow in the last.
Both parties are looking tired, must be the heat or the humidity as both are in fine physical health.

30 sec to go before the start of the 6th. Folks,,, we have a real dust up on the table here.

There's the bell,,, both looking cagey,,, can this tempo be maintained.
Rumble in the Jungle updates after the 6th.

Mark

Not loving the lo-rider look. Bad for handling too

^^^ yeah... forgot the torsion bars

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobby Smith

Resto mod longhood.

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Nice looking car except for the collapsed suspension. Does it have airbags to lift it up to usable height?

Sort of looks like my old 6.3 when the air compressor failed.

Now 1 minute into the 6th

Low blows swinging in hard from the Upgrade fighter,,

See how the dust settles after the pop of the deflated balloon's..

2 Min to go and evenly split on the sheet.

They approach again,,, elbows out ,

NO MATTER what you do they will keep on BOXING.

Thats all that counts really.

Mark

East LA style! Contrary to popular belief, a couple of Porsche guys from LA weren't the original outlaws. ;)

The original Porsche Outlaw:

DEAN JEFFRIES

https://solaros1.smugmug.com/Dean-Je...-356/i-JPxbSLp

Tom, thanks for this!

So many cool dudes from the era. I fear a lot of them will be lost to time. You know we have our very own custom builder? Rolly Resos: He's not just a Porsche guy. :D

Dean Jeffries was brilliant. What a time it must have been. Great article.
https://petrolicious.com/marketplace...-carrera-coupe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frankr

Not loving the lo-rider look. Bad for handling too

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This one's low and handles pretty darn well.
https://www.facebook.com/drew.gormli...3025286058946/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stout

Flames and sponsor stickers? Not my bag. I'm not much one for stripes, either, and am with you on the mechanical upgrades > visual "upgrades."

But...there is something to a well turned out car, and dead stock Porsches rarely do it for me. Done right, the details always get me: Sugar Scoop delete, right wheels/tires (as in, the customer sport dept might have sold those in the day), sport muffler, ride height, etc. Show me a 1971 911 with those four things done next to a stocker, and all other things being equal, I'll take the "mildly optimized" car every time—and would probably pay more for it. This move back to sugar scoops may be the death of me...the US 911 was a car the factory never wanted to build but had to. Ditto for US ride height and other items, such as US lenses, bumper guards, etc.

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Yet the 1973RS has the word CARRERA very large on both sides of the door with stripe:D

Attachment 448137
And this wasn't even sold in the US

Poor Jaguar had to toe-the-line as well after 1967. Never quite as pretty, especially when the tail lights were dropped below the bumpers in '69 becoming hideously large.

Now all headlights are now designed like pre-68 cars (aerodynamic) and 5mph bumpers are gone too. Go figure.:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobby Smith

This one's low and handles pretty darn well.
https://www.facebook.com/drew.gormli...3025286058946/

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I would not call that good handling. It looks like rock hard go kart suspension way overpowered. Slides pretty, looks good, definitely not the quick way around a circuit.

I love modified cars, just that they actually be practical modifications that actually serve a purpose. As Ferry used to emphasize, "Form Follows Function"

So which would you rather have a great/beautiful car with an original dash but with many cracks/gashes in it; or a replacement dash from Lakewell, Carpoint, Porsche Classic???

So which would you rather have a early S with no oil radiator cooler in the fender, or with a brass cooler, trombone cooler, later cooler with fan, or the new S replacement cooler with a rock shield of course???

This thread

Quote:

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So which would you rather have a great/beautiful car with an original dash but with many cracks/gashes in it; or a replacement dash from Lakewell, Carpoint, Porsche Classic???

So which would you rather have a early S with no oil radiator cooler in the fender, or with a brass cooler, trombone cooler, later cooler with fan, or the new S replacement cooler with a rock shield of course???

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First- non-destructive, returnable to original upgrades

Dash- hmmm if it is not very good looking dash, then a replacement dash from one of the vendors .... but the vetting process to find an acceptable one .....

My early S came without an external loop cooler. I took careful steps to duplicate the factory's exact methods, materials and location for the line mounting studs. Then sourced all EOM lines and parts ensure the install was indistinguishable from factory.<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/e3196356/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script><script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/e3196356/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script>