The real 73 RSR TF Winner - Porsche Factory Scam??

The brief discussion of Targa Floria winners in the Portland Parade thread reminded me of a thread idea I had last summer, but forgot to post.

As Jim mentions in the other thread the car shown below has been owned, shown and raced for many years by American Peter Kitchak. The first photo shows the car at Goodwood Festival of Speed last summer. And the second photo is one I took of the car at Rennsport in Daytona - 2004. Seems to be no doubt that this is the actual 73 Targa Florio winning RSR.

BUT...

The third photo below is from the Porsche Factory Museum taken this summer (2005). When I saw the museum car I was really surprised because it is being portrayed as the 73 TF winner. Even the museum catalog under a photo of the museum car says, "The "Number 8" Porsche was the winner of the Targa Florio...". Another photo says, "Ready for racing again after thorough renovation: RSR "Number 8".

Technically correct, the "Number 8" was the winner, but what they don't say is that 'this' number 8 isn't the same car as the number 8 car that actually won the race.

To give the museum some credit, in the museum book description, in the very last paragraph, the very last sentence, it says, "An original RSR painted in the Martini colours was fully overhauled for the Porsche Museum in 2001...".

Kind of brings into question the credibility and authenticity of all of the cars in the museum collection. Unless you really knew to read the catalog closely you would believe the museum car is the 73 TF winner.

Kitchak's RSR at Goodwood and Daytona
http://www.toadhallracing.com/Goodwood2005-043.jpg

Why didn't you ask someone to show you the chassis ID if you doubted it.
I somehow dont believe its a fake... Just a poor translation from German to English.
The Targa car has been at the museum forever.. I still have personal photos of it back in 1975. I remember it still in the early 90's with all its roadrash. Perhaps they thought it was time for a makeover.

Regards, Robert.

There was more than one car at the Targa, I think 3. The Porsche Museum has a 917 painted like the Le Mans winner but it is not. The original is owned by Julio Palmaz so I guess the Museum RSR could also be painted up.

Don

Prehaps I should have framed my post as "which is the real 73 TF winner?". I don't know for sure, but I lean towards Kitchak's for these reasons:

1. The museum catalog description of thier car.
2. Rennsport - Kitchak's car was there, represented as the 73 TF winner and was included in the photo shoot of important 911 race cars (see below). The museum was well represented with people and cars at Rennsport. If Kitchak's was a fake and the museum has the actual winner, why would they have allowed Kitchak's car to be included and hold claim to being the TF winner?

I'm open and interested in hearing other thoughts or facts.

Kitchak's car is 0588. It was found in a warehouse (by my old boss Bob Johnson) in Kansas or somewhere in the midwest. It was a bare shell and had the long Penske rear wing on it.

So.....if the winning Targa car was 0588....????

Can't quite see but there looks to be another no.8 car in that photo near identical to the car in question
Regards
Mike

That's the museum car......:)

Are you sure you haven't got them the wrong way round:D ;)
Regards
Mike

Kitchaks car has the "Mary Stuart" tail and the Museum car has a standard duck tail.......is that was you're refering to?

Just making sure I had it the right way round. Why is it called a Mary Stuart tail? Anything to do with the Queen of Scots;)
Regards
Mike

This is a link to a model site that might help with the overall understanding of this three-piece tail made up of a standard duck tail and two extensions...

http://www.react-co.jp/p04.htm

George
Well I never!!! You learn the most facinating stuff on this site.
Regards from Bonnie Scotland
Mike
PS George...any real RS steering wheels for sale?

When I was at the museum in 2003 I took a photo of the plaque that is in front of the 917 that is painted like the 1970 LeMans winner. The plaque never states that it is in fact chassis # 917-023, the overall winner at LeMans, but leads you to think that it is. Careful wording...

Ah, MarkP, you open a really big can of worms. Rennman is correct, there were three (actually five) Martini Porsche RSRs at the '73 Targa Florio. 9113600588 (race #8) won and is now owned by Peter Kitchak. 9113600020 (race #9) finished third and is now on display at the Porsche Museum and often on tour as shown in MarkP's pictures of RennSport Reunion II. Porsche also brought a third RSR (9113600974) but it was wrecked during practice by Count ____ Pucci. Team Chief/Race Engineer Norbert Singer put 0974's engine into the team's training car (aka Mongrel) and entered the training car as race #107; it finished sixth. I do not know Mongrel's VIN (it is always E42 in Singer's notes), but--based on the same notes, I'm pretty sure it was built on a 1972 911S chassis. There are written rumors that Pucci wrecked another car during practice for the '73 TF, but Singer's notes make no record of that.

Now for the big mystery. Note the oil fill door on the race photo of car #9 from the Carrera RS book.
Attachment 15894
#9 is suppose to be 0020, but--that's a '72 tub! Starkey reports that 0020 was built in Nov 1973 on a '73 chassis!! Although I have not seen race photos of the right side of E42, I suspect the oil fill door is not there. If so, then the record book is screwed up! True--0588 won the '73 TF, but I'm beginning to think E42 was entered as race #9 and finished third; 0020 was entered as race #107 and finished sixth. Singer and I are writing a book on the '73 RSRs (working title: Production to Prototype: 1973 Martini Porsche RSRs and the World Championship of Makes); we talked briefly about this mystery but have yet to resolve it. Stay tuned for more details

PS FlatSix is correct. The #8 RSR stuck in the middle of MarkP's picture at RRII is the Museum car (0020), the #8 car in the foreground is Kitchak's car and the car that won the '73 Targa Florio

Thanks all for the responses - fascinating world that we play & live in.

Below is another photo that I took of the museum car confirming the duck tail.

I also received a private email for someone with access to the factory records and Singer's notes confirming that #0588 was the winner in 73.

GeorgeK is right on! Here is an excerpt from my marquee at Coronado and Laguna Seca
Attachment 15896

In 1972, Porsche decided to enter production 911s in the FIA/CSI World Championship of Makes after the FIA and SCCA adopted new engine and fuel limitations that made the 908/3 obsolete and 917 uncompetitive. After building 500 1973 Carrera RS and applying for FIA Homologation in Group 4 (Special GT), Porsche built 56 race versions of this car (conversion order no. M491) between Oct 1972 and May 1973: prototypes were numbered R1 through R8; customer cars were called Carrera RSR. Porsche shipped two RSRs to the Brumos and Penske teams to enter in the 1973 Daytona 24 hr race; these cars were entered in FIA Group 5 (Sports-Prototype) because the homologation papers were signed but not in effect. Once homologation became effective, Porsche renewed its partnership with the Martini Racing Team and entered Group 4 RSRs in the WCM races in Europe.

The Martini Porsche RSRs won their class at Vallelunga, Le Mans 4 hr, and Dijon but ran into trouble at Monza. An Italian privateer that entered an RSR was unhappy the Martini Porsche team had done well but the privateers had not. The day before the Monza race, the Italian asked the Race Stewards to check the rear suspension of the Martini cars. Norbert Singer, Project Manager/Development Engineer of the Porsche RSR, installed new covers for the outer pick-up points on the trailing arms. The Italian argued that since the coves were not homologated, they and the car were not legal! Even though the Martini cars had used the covers at Dijon, Singer decided it was useless to argue with the Italian at an Italian race. He decided to change from Group 4 to Group 5 where he could keep the covers and add aerodynamic parts to reduce the car's tendency for oversteer at high speed. These parts consisted of winglets that extend the ducktail spoiler around and onto the rear flares. The winglets were tested at Paul Richard in Dec 1972; Singer knew they added aerodynamic drag, but improved handling by reducing lift. The car was slower on the straights but faster in the corners and lap times were less over a full lap. The winglets were cobbled together in the race trailer from aluminum sheet metal, attached to the rear flares, and the Martini cars started the race. The winglets and ducktail reminded someone on the team of the high, wide ruffled collars worn by Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots, hence the name Mary Stuart spoiler.

Jim
Facinating! Couldn't you resolve this issue by simply lokking at the chassis number of the museum car? To complicate matters the 72 oil filler could have been deleted during restoration to make it look like it was #9(as per the record books) rather than 107 and obviously it has been restored with #8 to make it look like the real winner. Does all that make sense?
Regards
Mike

Yes, 210bhp, that would be easiest, but--I did not look at the VIN of the museum car when I was there in 1991 (in fact, you couldn't touch the cars then), and the museum was closed for reconstruction when I was there last Aug. And yes, I guess the Factory could have restored 0020 without the oil fill door and slap #8 on it to look like 0588, but--I have race photos of 0020 before the Targa Florio (Tour d'Corsa, Paul Richard test, and the Le Mans 4 hr), and it does not have an oil fill door! Bottom line is that Porsche reports the VIN of the museum car as 9113600020 in their Museum book, and all race reports that I have read record 9113600588 as the winner of the '73 Targa Florio

Here are some sources I used a while back on another thread regarding one of the factory Martini cars that started out as a 72S.

Carrera RS book, page 165. "Porsches fondness for remodeling and renaming racing cars is illustrated by the following example: The chassis numbering system of the RS series did not start with 911 360 0001 and 0002 but rather with the number 11. This allowed Porsche to rebuild existing 911 S race cars as Carreras--which, under racing rules, could be further modified--and call them RS 1 and 2. Number 1 was used by the Pole Sobieslav Zasada as a rally car, and Number 2, after serving as a practice vehicle, was entered as number 107 in the Targa Florio."

(I think aurthors misused the S/N's as 001 and 002, when they were really Prototypes 1 and 2.)

In Porsche Sport 73 p. 63 (by Joe Rusz) there is a picture of #107 (captioned as finishing 3rd at TF), which is clearly the red 72 and with those funky looking rear flares and silver trimmed signals as shown on pages 53-55 in the Carrera RS book. It was run as a factory car with Martini colors probably in Group 5 Prototype class. All they did was change the hood with newer Martini paint scheme, and it has a different (larger for the long runs) fuel tank looking at the holes in the hood. You can actually see the earlier Martini hood stripes at the top of the hood cowl, which had been used on the earlier Martini #3 car shown in the wind tunnel testing on pages 94, 95. (In this same Porsche Sport issue, which was a contemporary publication of the time, the #8 Martini car was identified as the winner, and it had the Mary Stewart wing.)

In Starkey's R to RSR, this car (my conclusion) is identified as 911 360 020 R2, which was "built" in 10/72, but really that was probably the date it was painted a different color and given the new Carrera VIN to be used by the factory as a practice car. I think I read where a new 3.0 race engine was installed in this "practice car" after 2 other RSR's were wrecked in practice at the Targa...and it finished 3rd.

In the Carrera RS book, VIN 020 does not show a conversion number and has the factory owned Country Code of 100, which to me says that it was probably the 72 S in question. On pages 53 and 54 the Red 72 is shown as a Prototype that had the metal "ducktail" look and raced in Austria with a 2.8 in July 72 with those funky looking flares.

On page 94 of the Carrera RS book (wind tunnel testing), the authors incorrectly identify this car as the winner of the Targa, and it is easy to see this is the same 72 (flares and silver trimmed lenses, mud flap on rear flares (as seen on p. 53 etc) here numbered 3, which is the car mentioned above.

In Boshen/Barth's THE PORSCHE BOOK, page 441, the #3 Martini car with the caption: "Development started with this factory-owned RSR in 1973" is clearly the 72S shown in the Carrera RS book based on the oil door, flares and silver trimmed turn signals.

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg #434

Another interesting fact from the Porsche Sport 73 publication pictures is that neither car, #8 or #107, had red bumpers...they were silver. The Mary Stewart collar looked like it had the structural pieces for the side additions, but they weren't covered in fiber glass. These would seem to be reliable pictures since you can see they are taken at the Targa with spectators around, not staged pics for advertising. Sometimes photos are better records than memories.

Does anybody out there have a copy of Porsche Sport 73 to verify?

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg. #434

Here are some shots of the RSR's tail section. It looks like they refined it after the Targa.

Spa 1000km

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...e/RSR/RSR1.jpg

Nuerburgring 1000km

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...e/RSR/RSR2.jpg

Not sure about this one...

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...e/RSR/RSR3.jpg

Here is a not-too-good picture of the Porsche Sport 73 page showing the Targa Florio winners.

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg #434

So, a "'73RS" on a '72 tub? Gawd, that car would be a find, indeed!

Found this in a mid-80's Christophorus last night. Did Porsche own 917-023 in the 80's or had it left their hands by then?

I noticed that the wind tunnel testing photo shows the rear side windows as production car type that pop open. The photo in Porsche Sport 73 shows car #107 with the window open, also production car pop out type.

Good work Gib

photo of car #107 with window open

Jim if a can be of any help iam going to Stuttgart in two weeks, an plan to go to the museum, anything i need to look for there let me know, glady will. I am going to see a friend who ran the Monte race dep, back then.

Ernie:

This last picture makes it easy to identify with those rear flares and other 72 features that this is the same red 72 that ran at the Austria Ring in July 72 (#5) with the 2.8 L engine under the independent team, Strahle. I think there is a reasonable chance that this car was renumbered as 911 360 020.

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg #434

Gib /Ernie / Jim

I think you guys are doing great work with this thread.

I have been watching this thread with a great amount of interest and (I think) leaning a lot. As most here know when a company such as Porsche is conducting an international racing programme keeping track of which chassis are racing in which events is usually very secondary to trying to get the car to the event and win. There are well documented chassis number swaps on race cars such as 917's so the car that was available to race would match the wagenpass or customs documentation, especially if repairs were not completed quickly enough before the cars had to front up at the next event. It was easier to change the chasssis number instead of the paperwork.

Likewise there was nothing as useless as a just obselete race car. No-one was thinking of what we might be researching now when there was a tub or engine to be recycled into the latest version (and it still happens now).

There is no doubt in my mind that the picture of #107 is of a 72 shell, however Gib I am puzzled about why it could neccesarily be #20. I have in my database on RS's that #107 was chassis 9113600002 (ie #02 not #20) a recycled 2.5S race car and #20 was production #1031090 a genuine RS build and factory car R2. However I have not recorded the source of this info (the info on R2 is mainly from Starkey).

I agree that a lot of cars were recycled over time but from all I have seen R2 (#20) was a genuine build not a recycle. Of course I could be wrong on this as could the factory records even.

I always thought in the 73 targa that Leo Kinnunen drove R2 which was race #9 and he came in third and Steckkönig drove race #107 which was the 1972 chassis recycled as #02.

However from the pictures here I can easily believe that the chassis may have been the other way around, or even that there were TWO 72 cars at the targa :eek: as the colour photo also seems to clearly show a 72 car:confused: .

Given the accident damage to at least one car prior to the event and Jim's claim that 5 cars went there what is the possibility that another (unrecorded) 72 shell was substituted as race #9?:confused: :confused:

I did notice somewhere on one of the Targa sites that some drivers (Kinnunen?) were cross entered between #107 and #9. I can believe that if one or more of the cars were damaged that the team would do whatever was needed to get the best drivers a seat. I dont think however that there is any dispute that the winner was Muller and van Lennep in chassis #588 R6 with race #8.

I will be very interested to watch what comes of this thread and even more intersted to get a copy of any book that comes out of all of this - keep us posted on that Jim

Center spread Christophorus No. 107/ Oct. '73

Spa 1000km - May 6th '73
Muller/van Lennep

Started 11th finished 5th

Most likely in the same 3 liter RSR that will win the Targa Florio the next week

Hugh:

I am no expert on these facts or conclusions, but only piecing various details together. In researching further in the Carrera RS book, I came across a caption that confirmed Starkey's data that 911 360 020 was indeed "R2", and then another statement that "R1" was a modified 911S, 911 330 0789. Starkey shows R1 being 911 360 019, so that is one of my reasons for suspecting that 020 might have been a renumbered car also. One other piece of data that influenced me is that neither 019 and 020 have a conversion number, which would suggest they were not a normal production RS.

I have no data on RS s/n's 001 through 010 since they are not listed in the BOOK. I have wondered about those numbers, but have seen no source that lists them. Starkey's listing of prototypes does not list any of these numbers either. So, if you have some data on cars with these low numbers, I would very much like to see it.

I am very curious what the s/n is for the 72 that became #107 at the Targa (and was earlier #3 as Ernie confirms). That car is well documented in pictures as being a 72, but I really haven't seen any real data on the VIN.

At the 73 Targa race, Giulio Pucci destroyed both a practice car and competition car during practice laps, so the "mongrel" (which was probably a converted 911S) was upgraded with a new 300 hp engine and it was raced by Pucci/Stekkonig to 6th according to data in the Carrera RS book. Haldi/Kinnunen drove #107 to 3rd according to both the Porsche Sport 73 and CRS book.

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg. #434

Gib

I also am no expert. I have just collected a series of facts, rumours and other statements over the years from various sources - some of which will be correct and some of which will undoubtedly be incorrect.

On the early (<#11) cars the only one I have documented, apart from #02 is #911 360 0001
That car apparently started life as 911 230 0769 a factory 2.5 (ST?) rally car (I think Zasada used it).

It was turned into a RS prototype and was restored by Autofarm in the UK in about 1995. I understand it is currently in the US.

I have kept an eye out for cars with numbers between 1 and 10 for many years as I believe some at least existed as prototypes built off old (1972) shells possibly all from recycled competition cars. From memory, neither the RS book or starkey comment on why the numbers start at 11.

I take your point about conversion numbers but NONE of the RSH cars had one ie there were 17 cars with no conversion number - some of these were Factory R cars some were other factory cars (paris show car #16 and press car) and some were customer cars. I suspect that all the cars from #11 on were genuine builds (but some on "new" unnumbered 72 shells) but some cars up to #10 were rebuilds of old cars with previous numbers for testing etc

I also have recorded that R1 was originally a 1973 S #789 but I think it is from the same source as you. It is interesting that R1 and R2 have consecutive production numbers (1089 and 1090) as well as chassis numbers (19 and 20)They would have gone along the line together. However it surprises me that a 73 S with a number as high as #789 could have been built BEFORE the 10th RS which was in turn only the 1089th 911 of all types built in the 1973 model year:confused: :confused:

I have also seen elsewhere that #11, #12 #13 and #14 were ALL prototypes built using 72 shells and all had the oil tank etc. They were built in APRIL and May 1972 a good 4 months before MY 73 production started.
The RS book also shows #15 ,16 and 17 being built in July and #18 built in August. It would be a good bet that at least some of those had a 72 shell.

On the results I am confused. You mention Haldi/Kinnunen drove #107 to 3rd according to both the Porsche Sport 73 and CRS book and Pucci/Stekkonig were 6th. The targa site http://www.targaflorio.info/index22.htm and a couple of others show CARRERA RSR 3000 (#9) - LEO KINNUNEN / CLAUDE HALDI as 3rd and CARRERA RSR 3000(#107) - GUNTHER STECKKONIG / GIULIO PUCCI as 6th:confused:

Also the race results section of classiccar.com shows
3. 9 Leo Kinnunen / SF Claude Haldi / CH - DNP Martini Racing Porsche Car 911 360 0020 R2 11 7:12:42,700 3. S3.0 15. 40:44,600

and 6. 107 Günter Steckkönig / D Giulio Pucci / I Martini Racing Porsche Carrer 911 360 0002 11 7:27:30,100 4. S3.0 8. 38:40,500

Now I know it is easy for one error to be repeated from one place to another, and I like source documents from the time (but even they can be wrong) but this seems in conflict with what you have:confused:


I look forward to any more clarifying information

Gib

one more thing. i just noticed a note hidden in my database that may add some clarity (or more confusion.)

Frank Gallogly might be able to help on this because the note is against #17 and states

" frank gallogly owned 017;"when i got it it was a roller with slant nose and 935 flairs,not to mention this was the car used for the sales brouchure;it belonged to the race dept;pressed into service for the 73 targa florio when there was an accident with one of the favtory race cars.it now belongs to kevin jeanette of gunnar porsche "


Given it is a July 72 build car it is likely that it also had a 72 oil tank system

Frank - can you clarify any of this?

Hugh:

It does appear that the order of finish is in question for #9 and #107, but both appear to have been 72 911 bodies, based on Jim's picture of #9. The drivers themselves would be able to clear this up..or others directlly involved in the competition. It's probably just a case of trivia unless one owns one of the cars in question, or that claims to be one of these cars.

It is just interesting that the Factory would be so frugal that it would renumber competition cars from one model year to the next. I guess it shows that budget issues were a factor in business decisions then as well as today.

I hope we get others to chime in here with facts that can shed light on this very interesting thread.

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg. #434

Hugh ,I DID OWN #17 FOR A short period of time and gave it to kevin jeanette for payment to restore a very important car,I didn't do any research on the car,but when kevin took off the paint layers undernith was original martini race trim;later I was informed by Starky his records showed this car was a factory press car and used in the '73 targa.Kevin is now giving it a full restoration I THINK THERE ARE SOME PHOTOS ON HIS WEB SITE GUNNARRACING.COM;My understanding from him is that the car should be done by the Portland Parade.you're right it was produced in 7/72;one of the first ptotptypes.It was also the factory bruchure car.Kevin has been researching this car for a while,he has the answers.This is a very special car

Hi Y'All

Sorry for the silence; I have a map that needs review, so--work got in the way! Nonetheless, you guys are doing great--this thread is FANTASTIC!

Platas-Thank you for the offer and yes, I do have two wishes. First, try to get as many pictures of the '73 RSR in the Museum as you can, especially the VIN plate, engine detail, and chassis reinforcement. That is assuming, of course, the Museum is open and the car is on display. Second, ask your friend in the Race Dept if he/she has or can compile a list and photos of Porsche entries in the 1972 Europa, Bulgaria, and Tour de Corse rallys. This data may help solve the confusion re: the early RSR prototypes and race cars.

Gib/Hugh-How do you know that TF race #107 is a '72 tub? Gib, that is a good point re: the light color trim around the horn grills, but--look at the winglets on the black&white photo of race #8 below.
Attachment 16167
Color photos show that they are flat black! I have learned not to believe the various shades and colors on published photos. They are probably close, but bright sunlight, printing inks, time, etc, etc can really screw things up. Also, those are the normal (as opposed to funky) 11" rear flares on #107 as well as race #5 at the '72 Osterreichring. Porsche raced with those flares until the '73 Nurburgring. Finally, how do you know that #107 was red? I have never seen a color photo of that car.

Hugh-I'm beginning to believe that Porsche brought more than five cars to the TF. Someone (forgot the source but will check) that two practice cars were shipped to Sicily two (maybe three) weeks prior to the event. I wondered about this because who was gonna drive them. Not the race team because they were at Monza and Spa. So what's the point of sending cars to practice weeks in advance--it's expensive and they could get wrecked!

Jim:

If you look at the photo of 107 from the TF, and compare it to the photo on p. 53 of the CRS book, it is pretty easy to conclude that the "red RSR" pictured on p. 53, 54 is that same car as shown as #107 at TF. A good clue also is to follow the #3 interim Martini version (which I say is this same 72 car), and look at how the stripes were done on the front hood, and the placement of the hood fuel filler hole, as well as the rear flares and silver trimmed TS's. When you look closely at the picture of #107, you can see the Martini stripes at the top of the cowl from the #3 paint scheme, so the hood was changed, but no side Martini stripes were present (as in #3). as would normally have been done to match with the hood used.

The wind tunnel test pictures of Martini #3 (plus the pic shown above of the right side at speed) clearly show this car is the same as shown as the red 72 prototype on p. 53 of the CRS book, in my opinion. Clues: rear flare, mud flap, silver trim on TS, fuel filler hole in hood, pop out qtr windows (Ernie's observation).

BTW, I went to the Gunnar Racing web site, and indeed, one picture of the restoration of Frank's former RSR #17 on the passenger side B pillar shows a circular hole which would have been the oil door release from a 72 body. So Frank's car was apparently based on a renumbered or new 72 body it would appear.

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg. #434

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 210bhp

Can't quite see but there looks to be another no.8 car in that photo near identical to the car in question
Regards
Mike

---

Very observant and with an interesting story.

So let me "clarify" for all.

I handle "all" of PK's cars. I know the Mary Stuart , 1973 Porsche RSR, Martini Prototype, 911.360.0588 R6 the Targa Florio winning car intimately.

In the Rennsport Photo, you will see the "other car" that the factory has. The reason it is behind ours "the TF winner aka Mary Stuart" is because it is not the TF winner whereas PK's car is....

I was there standing at the lift crane when the group photo was being shot. Norbert Singer and Kerry Morse were standing right next to me. As they began lining up for the "911" photo, they called for the Targa Florio winner and the "factory boys" started to roll up the "other car". In a firm voice I told the guy with the bull horn, "Sir, that is NOT the Targa winner. I brought the Targa Florio winner complete with Mary Stuart Tail" and it is way back there at the back corner (see other Rennsport photo with all car and you will see it way back at far right as we were the last car to get there for the photo due to late transport). The gentleman asked while looking at Norbert Singer "Mary Stuart, is he right?" Norbert looked a bit towards the ground and then said, "Yes that is the right car, Kitchak's car is the Targa Florio winner." We were then asked to push 0588 in front of the "other car" and that is what you see behind us. In the mean time, Kerry Morse began into a big debate upon how the Mary Stuart tail was restored.....as you see Norbert Singer supplied us "Kerry Morse" drawings to reconstruct it properly after it had been removed "banned" and found in condition as raced by Roger Penske with Mark Donahue at the wheel. The car was restored back to the "Mary Stuart" bodywork as that is the only way Norbert would help with the restoration. He felt that was it's most significant and "best" format as it raced for the factory was in the Mary Stuart bodywork configuration and updated suspension and brakes (centerlock hubs,917brakes, Titanium springs, etc, etc. This car also has "all" factory documentation.

Needless to say, we were not happy about this "confusion". But it has been clearly documented in writing to us, but never publicly confirmed. A private collector tried to buy the car this past year for over 1 million US through a broker, I think it may have been the factory.

FYI, you may want to note that Kitchak not Kaufmann had the car restored and Peter went to great length to get all the pieces of this car back "the original pieces" that were stripped off this car. This car has very unique components unlike the other prototypes and thus sets it apart and why Norbert Singer wanted it restored back to the Mary Stuart Martini Racing body and livery as it raced at LeMans as no 47

I have had the priviledge to work on this car for a long time now as well as drive it on a number of occassions at Elkhart and Daytona. It is a stunning car that I personally think is second to NO other RSR. I look forward to taking this car back to Goodwood for Peter and supporting the two of them again this year.

Below is my personal photo where the cars are still being lined up.

David Moore
Moorespeed Race Engineering
www.moorespeed.com

[QUOTE=Jim Calzia] but--look at the winglets on the black&white photo of race #8 below.
[QUOTE]

I believe that is 0588 with the "aluminum" version of the Mary Stuart tail which was done prior to making molds and modifying it into a "fiberglass" tail.

FYI
I have found this thread totally facinating and have learned so much but just to be accurate.....if this special car has bodywork/tail named after the Queen of Scots it should be Mary Stuart and not Mary Stewart
Regards
Mike

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 210bhp

FYI
I have found this thread totally facinating and have learned so much but just to be accurate.....if this special car has bodywork/tail named after the Queen of Scots it should be Mary Stuart and not Mary Stewart
Regards
Mike

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Sorry, you are correct......and as raced in the Targa below....Mary Stuart

Here's how it appeared at Vellengua in 1973

At Lemans, photo taken by Norbert Singer himself in line for tech

Jim i will do that and ask my friend all ?, from there i will e amil you if you need anything else.

Boy, I must've been fast asleep in history class when the whole Queen of Scots thing was reviewed. After a quick Google search .... now I get it! :D

David,

Is center spread pic in the Christophorus No.107/Oct.'73 that I posted, of the #588 R6 TF winner like I assume?

If so, these two BIG races were only 6 days apart... :eek:

Cheers, and thanks for all the clarification

Yup - however, the aerodynamic advantages of her collar proved ineffective in the end...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chuck Miller

David,

Is center spread pic in the Christophorus No.107/Oct.'73 that I posted, of the #588 R6 TF winner like I assume?

If so, these two BIG races were only 6 days apart... :eek:

Cheers, and thanks for all the clarification

---

Joest and Follmer drove the 0588 at Spa. I can't confirm that the photo you posted is 0588....Muller and Van Lennep were in 0576 at SPA....then the drove 0588 at the Targa a week later...then Muller and Van Lennep drove 0686 at Lemans while Joest and Haldi drove 0588 at LeMans.....story goes that Joest ran it out of gas on purpose at Lemans. If I remember correctly Joest tells the story that the front end splitter was ripped off after going off track much earlier and with the big Mary Stuart tail going down Mulsane the front was so light there was no amount of steering input that could keep the car on track.....so he ran it out of gas cause he thought he was going to die continuing to drive it that way. I'm fuzzy on that story, so maybe someone could chime in.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

Boy, I must've been fast asleep in history class when the whole Queen of Scots thing was reviewed. After a quick Google search .... now I get it! :D

---

That's a great photo......that explains it all ;-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speedmoore

Very observant and with an interesting story.

I was there standing at the lift crane when the group photo was being shot. Norbert Singer and Kerry Morse were standing right next to me. As they began lining up for the "911" photo, they called for the Targa Florio winner and the "factory boys" started to roll up the "other car". In a firm voice I told the guy with the bull horn, "Sir, that is NOT the Targa winner. I brought the Targa Florio winner complete with Mary Stuart Tail" and it is way back there at the back corner (see other Rennsport photo with all car and you will see it way back at far right as we were the last car to get there for the photo due to late transport). The gentleman asked while looking at Norbert Singer "Mary Stuart, is he right?" Norbert looked a bit towards the ground and then said, "Yes that is the right car, Kitchak's car is the Targa Florio winner." We were then asked to push 0588 in front of the "other car" and that is what you see behind us.

---

David,
Thanks a bunch for joining the thread and adding so much! Beautiful group of cars you get to work on. Below are a couple of my shots that support your story. First the museum crew and then yours.
Mark

guys this is a great thread that has a number of different elements / directions :)

I have tried to summarise the main ones where there is concensus and where there are still questions.
consensus I think is that
[*]there is no doubt that the winner of the TF in 1973 was car #588 R6 race number 8 driven by Muller and van Lennep
[*]there is also no doubt that this car is the "Kitchak" car not the car in the Museum
[*]a RSR came third and another one sixth and at least one of them was a substitute car after a race car and possibly a practice car were`crashed by Pucci

less certain is the following

The contempoary "porsche Sport 73" shows car 107 as the third place car diven by Kinnunen and Haldi implying that Steeckkonig and Pucci were in car 9

However other photos show the opposite including the colour photo ealier in this thread of car 9 sourced from the RS book amongst other places. For what it is worth Minichamps are just releasing a model of car#107 and they say it was the Pucci car that came 6th as do the race results on the TF site and elsewhere.

I think the contemporary Porsche Sport photo or caption are wrong.

The colour photo of car#9 clearly shows a 72 type feature of a fender mounted oil tank but it appears` to be a 73RSR in other respects and looks like it has black light surrounds and the photo of #107 show 72 tub features`such as chrome light surrounds and an opening rear window.

At least one of these cars was made up from a pracice car. i believe that was car #107 and one set of results I have seen show the chassis number as #02 a renumbersed 2.5S race car. This is not a car listed in the RS book but is consistent with reports of old race cars being updated and renumbered to take advantage of the new RS`homologation

The identity of the practice car that was updated`is not clear. It may be the same as the origial RSR mule that was debued in Austria in June 72 as red car #5 entered by Strahle Motor Sport to hide factory involvement. This is the car on pp 53 and 54 of the RS`book and I think again on pp109. Strahle also ran at least 1972 1 2.5S in europe but the #5 car had significantly wider rear fenders ( as well as a prototype ducktail). The body shape is very similar but that is not conclusive. It would also fit the description of a "mongrel" starting life probably as a 2.5S ( or maybe something even earlier) and then becoming a RSR prototype and if I am correct being given the number 911 360 0002 - a car that does not even exist on the official records! (as does 001 the Zasada` rally car)

The mismatch of the Martini colours between the bonnet and scuttle of that car in the contempory photo above pointed out earlier is puzzling and is another clue to support that this was the rebuilt practice car

That does not explain the apparent 72 shell on the #9 car. That car is supposed to be R2 #20 made in October 72. There is documentary evidence that at least 4 and maybe more of the cars from chassis #11 onwards were made with 72 shells. Some of the photos that were released with the release of RS show this if you look hard including the signal yellow car used in the 73 model year brochure. Therefore it is possible that the cars up to Chasis #20 had 72 shells ( excluding #19 R1 as it was suposed to be a S rebuild and contempory photos in Nov 72 do not show an oil door). Also some of the cars used for brochures`in the #11 to#18 range do not have oil doors in the photos but interestingly most of the photos are from the other side

R2, along with R1 ( documented`as a S rebulid) debued at the rally tour de corse in Nov 72 The contempory photo of R2 #20 does not show the oil tank but show black horn grills and a crudely fashioned rear fenders (you can easily see the spot welds and the two parts. see pp 162 of the RSbook)

That does not explain what part #17 now at Gunnar racing plays in all of this either- was it yet another car that may have been #107 or was it the other practice car that was crashed by Pucci???. Given that it was a M472 and the white / red`car used in the sales brochures`my guess is that it is not #107 but the other practice car crashed by Pucci.

that leaves the museum car. it is not the winner. It may be #9 chassis #20 R2 which would also make it a tour de course car and the car from the original Paul ricard testing. However if that is the case has it had a serious modification to remove the oil tank and opening from a 72 position to a 73 position to make it look "correct" ????? a very close examination would be fun;)

Not sure if I'm adding anything but here are my shots of the doppelgangers at RRII in 2003.

The Kitchak car:

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...t/IMG_3124.JPG

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...t/IMG_3079.JPG

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...t/IMG_3081.JPG

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...t/IMG_3082.JPG

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...t/IMG_3078.JPG




The Porsche factory museum car:

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...c/IMG_3164.JPG

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...c/IMG_3165.JPG

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...c/IMG_3170.JPG

http://webpages.charter.net/treehugg...c/IMG_3171.JPG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkP

David,
Thanks a bunch for joining the thread and adding so much! Beautiful group of cars you get to work on. Below are a couple of my shots that support your story. First the museum crew and then yours.
Mark

---

Great shots!!!! Glad someone else saw what happened, it was quite a dramatic event at the time as the factory was advertising they were bringing over the Targa winner, etc. Maybe one day, they will correct their plaque at the factory to indicate that car is in the "basic early trim" that all the factory prototype RSRs ran at the Targa and then show photos of how the cars evolved that year. Being prototypes, there were differences at just about every race that year.

BTW, here a link to a run up the hill at Goodwood at Kitchak's website: http://www.toadhallracing.com/ It's a 12.5mb file and you have to have Real Player to run it.

Well, back to work. Saturday and the start of racing season is just days away.....can't wait.

d

Hugh:

Great summary! I agree with your conclusions. It is really very interesting that there is conflicting evidence on the finishing order at the 73 TF as far as the cars are concerned, but none about the drivers.

I wonder what other races or events the Martini #3, (which I conclude became #107) ran in or was it just used in practicing events. I do think it was probably the one that was called the "mongrel". BTW, I have one of the new Minichamps models of #107, and it is very detailed...with the mismatched stripes at the hood cowl, but no oil door on the right side, and black horn grills and outlined TS's. There is another really great model shown in the CRS of #8 on p. 200 in which the "silver wings" with black tape are clearly shown on the sides of the ducktail.

On what page is the shot Jim posted from the CRS book showing #9 with the oil door. I have seen that pic before but can't find it in my copy of CRS.

Great pics of the winning TF car. It is interesting that all of the TF winning poster photos of #8 show it with the red bumpers, while the Porsche Sport 73 pics of the actual race show it with silver. It's a little like Hollywood I guess.

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #18
Early S Reg. #434

Gib

sorry to mislead you. I was looking thru all of my books and old mags to see if i could find period shots of the cars and I forgot which one I saw that photo in. It is a full page colour pic in "Porsche catalogue Raisonne 1947 - 1993" by automobilia a large 2 volume set. The next page shows the facory museum car captioned as 911 360 0020 but done up in the #8 martini colours but with the red bumper and the "arrow" version of the martini livery as now seen on the museum car but not on the actual car in 1973. That "arrow" livery is what may have been on the original bonnet of 107 (or it could have been the #3 livery shown in one of the pics above) however as far as I can see NO cars in 73 TF ran the arrow livery as car#9 had a plain silver bonnet - maybe the reason it did not score a photo in Porsche sport - no recognition for the sponsors!
Most of the race car photos are captioned with their chassis number but this is not the case with car#9 - maybe they were not certain?
I would post pics but I am having an argument with my scanner - the PC has stopped recognising it:( :mad:

I am not surpised that the model does not have the oil door - they can do wonders with the graphics but I think all the commercial model makers stay with a limited number of moulds which means that they would not put in that detail unless they tried to do it with a graphic. Also they do them from period photos so I guess they used one like the one publised above on this thread and not one that showed the other side.

Quote:

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The identity of the practice car that was updated`is not clear. It may be the same as the origial RSR mule that was debued in Austria in June 72 as red car #5 entered by Strahle Motor Sport to hide factory involvement.

---

I believe this is the car being referred to here.

That is definitely the car being referred to. I would have posted pics from the RS book but my scanner has stopped talking to my PC since I did the XP service pac 2 update #$#@#@!!:( :mad:

However I have improvised and tried out the new digital camera and taken photos of the RS book pics.

There is one at the race in Austria with race #5 and entered by Strahle Motorsport where you can just see the oil tank door - I have blown that part up in the next shot

and finally there is another Pic of what looks to be the same car with a series production RS at what looks to be a race track. I dont know where or when it was taken - does anyone else?

The question that needs answering is "is this the mongrel / hack that was pressed into service at the Targa as car #107?" and if so is there a chassis number?

I e -mailed kevin Jeanette of Gunnar Porsche Racing this thread hopfully he will add some insights

We are currently preparing the car at Moorespeed for the Goodwood Festival of speed.

I have graciously given my co-drive with Kitchak to none other than the man himself, Gijs van Lennep, winner of the last World Championship Targa Florio race in 1973 in 0588 Porsche 911 RSR.

David

Thanks for the update David. We will look forward to the pictures!

As i told Jim in our last conversation, the Martini car that is at the museum, is no longer there, they tookit out, they said they where going to restore ,like many of hte other porsches they have, so it wil lbe ready for the new museum in 07. Dont know if its tru, some one else said it was on tour, but..., i will find out where it is, since i am going to the factory in two weeks againg.

Good to see you here, David! Welcome!

I've seen the car at David's shop, it is fantastic- can't seem to find the pictures right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turbo Dave

Good to see you here, David! Welcome!

I've seen the car at David's shop, it is fantastic- can't seem to find the pictures right now.

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Different car Dave! You need to come see this in person.....or maybe not as I might have to clean the jizz off of it after you unload ;-) Tell your Bro and the rest of the RGruppe guys I said hello.

d

Here's one shot for you

And the "Mary Stuart" arse end

David -

Good to see your posts! Keep it up man. How about showing off some of Peter K's interior in that bad ass car??

-Jim

Excellent post - very interesting. Amazing car. Thought you might enjoy this short clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pCH6b_VJII

Is this the car from the museum?

Very cool, see you were at Goodwood last year. Please introduce yourself if you are there this year. I believe we will be in the F1 paddock again.

Jim,

I'll get some photos out before it leaves for England.

d

Quote:

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Originally Posted by willbrown

Excellent post - very interesting. Amazing car. Thought you might enjoy this short clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pCH6b_VJII

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David' Good to see you are doing so well. Do you want to borrow another rocker for your 911. HA HA. It's Eric in Corpus, the guy that loaned you a rocker arm for your 911 years ago. Seems that you have been busy since the old race days in Corpus. All the best and keep the shiny side up. Thanks Eric P.S. You did replace it. Take care.

Jim,

I'll be sure to do that :) look forward to it.

Will

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric911S

David' Good to see you are doing so well. Do you want to borrow another rocker for your 911. HA HA. It's Eric in Corpus, the guy that loaned you a rocker arm for your 911 years ago. Seems that you have been busy since the old race days in Corpus. All the best and keep the shiny side up. Thanks Eric P.S. You did replace it. Take care.

---

Hi Eric,

That's a brain cell I wish had died ;-) Small world! If you are ever in Austin, please be sure to look us up www.moorespeed.com

We are on your side of town....if you are still in CC.

Hello: David I'm still in Corpus. Been very busy building some cars and doing alot of cylinder head work. I have no time for my own projects, you know how that goes. Good to see you are doing well and if I get a chance to come see ya I'll give ya a call before I get there. Thanks Eric

Just returned from Goodwood.

Here is Gijs Van Lennap sitting on the fender of 0588 we ran at Goodwood which he drove and won the last Targa Florio. Gijs was very pleased with the car and had a great time with us. He is such a cool guy and still has great respect from the factory which was adjacent to us in the paddock.

Gijs drove the car in Batch 4, Class 10 Tortuous Torture-International Sports Car Racers 1962-1980, incorporating 100 years of the Targa Florio. Peter Kitchak and I drove the car in Batch 6, Class 17 The Rough with the Smooth-Heroes of World Rallying, 1966-2006

So we had double duty at Goodwood. We had some bugs which took some time to sort out, but the car was very fast and ran perfect by the time practice was over and real runs began.

The other photo is Peter Kitchak about to take a run standing behind the car.

I drove the car in the wet and it had more power than could be put down even with the rain tires. The track was very slippery all weekend until late Sunday afternoon.

I'll have more to post later, but I just returned from London and have a flight to catch in the morning to head the BRIC at Road America.

d

Few more paddock photos..........

David,
Here's one of Gijs back back in the day for those who might remember ...

Cheers and congrats!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chuck Miller

David,
Here's one of Gijs back back in the day for those who might remember ...

Cheers and congrats!!!!

---

Thanks Chuck. Sorry for the delayed reply, but just returned from Road America "BRIC".

d

David, It was nice to meet you and look over the stable at Road America! Peter ran a great race in the R but we missed seeing the Lola in the Can Am feature.

My shifter snapped off going into turn one at the start of our race - damn what a great event and track!

Mark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkP

David, It was nice to meet you and look over the stable at Road America! Peter ran a great race in the R but we missed seeing the Lola in the Can Am feature.

My shifter snapped off going into turn one at the start of our race - damn what a great event and track!

Mark

---

It was good to meet you too. Always nice to meet race friends in person!!! We got the T70 trans back together with a new R&P and input shaft as well as a few bearings.....just a normal track fix ;-) We were doing 2:12 lap times but went off in 14 from a large oil slick layed down from a big block that blew up right in front on the penultimate lap. I think we were in 2nd in the SB class and 4th overall when that happened. The R went great and we were in the lead on the last lap when PK came into a local yellow, could not pass a slower car and Beck sling shotted around after the yellow as he caught up under full speed. Too bad as we had a 2 sec. lead before that....but it was cool and Frank is our friend......we've beat him before so only fair trade. We broke a crank in the 73 RSR, just got the motor apart......or it would have been running on Sunday too. WE were in the mid 20's with that car.

If you ever get to Austin, look me up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkP

David, It was nice to meet you and look over the stable at Road America! Peter ran a great race in the R but we missed seeing the Lola in the Can Am feature.

My shifter snapped off going into turn one at the start of our race - damn what a great event and track!

Mark

---

I did not realize that was your first BRIC. Its one of my favorite events and has been for years. 60 Can-Am cars together!!!! It was awesome....just wish there were a few 917s there to represent Porsche as even Ferrari had a 512M Can-Am racer at the show.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speedmoore

PK came into a local yellow, could not pass a slower car and Beck sling shotted around after the yellow as he caught up under full speed.

---

I saw the whole thing unfold from the hill above 7/8 - to bad because he had a big lead!

My first, but not my last BRIC - great event! Will you be in Monterey? My Barbour Roadster got in so we will be there.

NE1 got a website where one could see photos of the BRIC?????

Hello
Here's an old topic resurection, but i'm introducing my (too) slow replica project here.
I should have found that board before
thanks
Philippe
http://perso.orange.fr/rs27/porsche/accueil2.htm

I have just revisited this thread after about 9 months... and my how it has grown - in length and intrigue!
Let me throw some more documentary evidence into the ring...

I was in Sicily for the Targa Centenary last June, and am putting together a short film about the centenary race.
Amongst the many local contacts I've made, one recently sent me some 8mm footage of the 1973 Targa race and practise.
I'v posted some youtube links to footage of the RSRs (two passes of each - one at full speed, one at quarter)

It looks like there was definitely more than one car numbered 107 used in practise (1 seen here with green bumper,
and 1 with silver bumper and different bonnet martini detail): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VciWlJW8jvw

And here's number 8:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-LkrRXg-AI

And a group of three in the paddock, probably still during practise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfVeBqtZ3JY

Hey, where are the Mary Stuart tails!? None here are wearing them. So they must have been added after practise
and before the race?

Youtube is pretty poor quality, but I can post higher res somewhere else if anyone wants a clearer view...

Nice! I've added those to the 'Porsche Videos' thread to make it easy to find in the future.

I've now had the race footage transferred, and have again posted on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tDhcQPdP-Y
Two passes - one at normal speed, then one slow, so you can see the details.

We can deduce that none of the cars had Mary Stuart tails in practise,
but #8 and #9 (and not #107) had some rudely fabricated ones fitted for raceday.
And check the differing locations of the struts installed to hold up the collars.

Also it can clearly be seen that #8 has NO 72 style oil filler, whereas #9 and #107 do.

Not sure if this helps, but it sure was fun going through the footage to find it!
Curt: I'll post the link in the videos thread too.

Quote:

---

It looks like there was definitely more than one car numbered 107 used in practise (1 seen here with green bumper,
and 1 with silver bumper and different bonnet martini detail): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VciWlJW8jvw

And here's number 8:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-LkrRXg-AI

And a group of three in the paddock, probably still during practise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfVeBqtZ3JY

---

Also notice that #107 with the green bumper has the black '73 grill and turn signal lenses, whereas #107 in the paddock has the silver ones. The bonnet on #107 in the paddock also has a different Martini paint scheme and the numbers are mounted horizontally (vs. diagonally on the other one).

In the race #9 clearly has a green front bumper ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tDhcQPdP-Y ), but not in the paddock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfVeBqtZ3JY .

Hello.

Fascinating thread, as is the history of these early RSRs. One think still puzzles me:-

Approximately two years ago, I inspected 911 360 0001 for a customer, who subsequently bought the car. I had known it when at Autofarm in England years before and had followed its restoration.

The factory confirmed that this had been Zasada's 1972 911S/T, that he had crashed on a rally in, I think, July 1972. After that, the car had gone back to the factory to be rebuilt and re-numbered as the first RS 2.7 Carrera. I have a photograph of it at the factory, red, with the notation that it was: "used to homologate the RS 2.7 into Group 4".

The factory later ion sold the car, through Steve Carr, to Stanley Palmer in the U.K. and I have seen the importation papers of this event, showing that it came to England with three early 2.8 RSR engines in, I believe, early 1974.

For me, the intriguing question is: What did the factory do with the car in 1973? Surely a new Group 4 RSR would not be left lying around the factory and not be used? The Targa Florio story of it being used there sounds extremely likely.

Kind regards

John Starkey

Welcome John, your knowledge and data bank are a big plus on this thread! As you wrote, Carrera RS prototype 9113600001 was originally a 2.5 ST (VIN 9112300769) crashed by Zasada in the1972 Rally of Poland, returned to the Factory for repairs in Sept 1972, taken over by the Press and Sport Depts, and sold to Palmer with three engines in early 1974. But just like you, I do not know what the Factory did with that car in 1973. I believe, however, that it was not used to homologate the Carrera RS (the 500+ RSHs that were weighted and certified for homologation started with VIN 9113600011) nor was it used at the ’73 Targa Florio. Manfred Jantke wrote in the August 1973 Christophorus that a training car (Mongrel) was stationed in Cefalu three weeks before the race; Singer and the Martini Racing Team arrived on May 9 with three race cars: R2 (9113600020), R6 (9113600588), R8 (9113600974), and one training car E42 (9113600002). 8mm film of practice, recently released by James Puttock, show that R8 and E42 both carried number 107 (I have no idea why!) but different Martini livery: R8 had green recognition colors on the front bumper and the U-shaped Martin stripes on the hood; E42 had no recognition color on the bumper and arrow-shaped Martini stripes on the hood. Also the number 107 was tilted in a white rectangle on R8 but was parallel to the long axis of an oval on E42. Baron Pucci crashed R8 on May 11 (it drops out of the practice notes after that date); the green front bumper went on R2 (which had not yet been assigned a recognition color) for the race on May 13, and the hood with the U-shaped Martin stripes went on E42.

Singer’s notes make no mention of a practice or race car that can be traced to 0001 during the 1973 World Championship of Makes season. That does not mean it was not used; it does mean that it was not assigned to Singer and the Martini Team. Jantke wrote that Mongrel was “an aging Carrera RS with racing chassis well used during testing and fitted with a 2.7L, 210 hp production engine.” Maybe Mongrel is 0001? Or maybe 0001 was the Press Car (#3 car in Martini livery that shows up in so many pictures)?? I always thought 0001 was used by the Factory for test fitting various parts on the Carrera RS, but—I don’t know! You wrote that you had a photo of 0001 at the Factory, red, with a notation. Could you post that picture on this thread? It may provide a clue to some of the other serious enthusiast that read this thread.

Mr. Starkey may not check in often.......?

I have the pics of RS 0001 but I'm checking with the owner.......I'd like permission to post them......I think he's fairly private.

Thanks.

Here's a link to an article John Starkey wrote about RS#0001.........

http://www.johnstarkeycars.com/pages/articles_fa.html

I just returned from a visit to the museum and have some pictures of the Martini car...before I was asked "not to touch the cars, please". I opened the passenger door to look at the oil release button area...it was a hole with a rubber filler of some kind there now. The underneath shot shows the threaded boss for mounting the tank, but I could not get my camera into the well to see how the oil door opening had been covered. Inside, the dash is a stock unit with knee guards, and in the rear, you can see the mounting holes for the rear window hinge in the black headliner.

I was just about to open the hood (which would reveal the VIN) when the don't touch request came, although the filler holes in the hood were just holes...no fuel tank with tall filler necks below, but there was a cover stuffed in there, so I could not see the tank. Above the hood are the original Martini stripes as shown on #3 and #107, and I don't recall seeing them on another Martini painted car, and this is the element that doesn't fit any other car at the Targa in 73. The museum car now has the side stripes on the top, but they could be easily added to a blank top as 3/107.

I think it is clear it is a production car, and most likely a 72. The only question is which one? #9 did not have the stripes above the hood, so it is likely not that car. My conclusion is that the museum car is #107.

Gib

Hey Gib

well done on your "raid" on the museum car. it is a shame you couldn't get to see the chassis number but what you have shown is of great interest.

I continue to be surprised that although this car is portrayed as the winner it is not even in the correct livery - ie it has the arrow on the front instead of the loop of Martini colour on the "real" #8 - but at least the museum does not claim it is #588 or even directly claim IT is the winner, and calls it chassis #20.

I suppose the really big question remains "is it chassis #20?" - from all I have seen in the past, and this thread, I would not be keen to place a bet that it was ;) . However IF it is (and it would be a bit of a surprise if the factory museum book deliberately recorded a wrong number) your little "raid" gives more weight to the argument that cars at least up to number 20 were built on 72 shells.

finally, one for the conspiracy nuts........is the factory's use of the "arrow" livery a subtle acknowledgment of the real heritage of the car shown, which may be illustrious but a little less so than being the final Targa winner?

Gib (and others)
I have just been looking back thru this thread and my database and notes etc in regard to the identity of the factory Museum car that you just looked at.

We all agree it is not the Targa winner it is made to look like.
Your research ("raid") suggests that it may have been originally a 72 shell.

The factory museum booklet claims it is R2: 9113600020, which began life as a 3 litre prototype in Nov 72 and then was raced on 3 Nov 1972 in the Tour de Corse with Larrousse/Delferrier; Reg No: LEO-ZA-69, and race #2.

This thread postulates as to whether it was race #9 in the 1973 Targa Florio - a car which by photographic evidence from the event was a 1972 shell.

Alternatively it may have been one of the versions of race #107 - but if it had been the race version it also was a 1972 shell as the photographic evidence from the race shows a 72 shell for that car as well.

However I just looked at the 1972 Tour De Corse photos I have (some from Curt's fantastic historical photos thread). thanks Curt!!

Attached is a contemporary photo from page 8 of that thread showing LEO-ZA-69,race #2 which is supposed to be R2 showing the all important RHS rear.

There is NO obvious sign of an oil door.

(However I have other pics of LEO-ZA-68 with both race # 2 and race # 6 from the same event - both are on Curt's thread.(thanks Curt:) ) Maybe they were switching number plates? )

Assuming for a minute that the attached photo is definitely R2 and in November 1972 R2 did not have an oil door (and it does have black trim like 73 cars) how could it have had an oil door at the Targa? Does that possibly rule out R2 as either #9 OR #107 in the race??

If so what is the museum car? is it really R2? how does that tie up with the signs of a 1972 shell you have reported?

Also does it mean, as I have now seen Starkey speculate on his site (links earlier in this thread), that both #9 and #107 were "stand ins" at the 1973 Targa -
one possibly the Zasada car renumbered to RS #1;
and one possibly another ex ST possibly the Strahle "red" car which Starkey postulates is S/T 911 230 0841 possibly renumbered as RS 9113600002;
one of which was most likely the Singer "mongrel"

(maybe I need to "get a life" :rolleyes: )

surely i detect a challenge here ? :D
First person to get the hood up and chassis number of the car in the museum gets ... well nothing ... but is a real hero ??!!:eek:

would certainly assist in the discussion !!!

It might be at Rennsport again. I bet if you ask nice enough someone will raise the hood for you.

Welcome back Gib, or should I say Sherlock! Sounds like a great trip, but I'm sure you're glad to be back with the horses.

One last clue I just discovered looking at my pictures from the museum. The hood on the museum car has 2 fuel filler hole plugs that match those on #107 taken at the TF race. It has been repainted with the arrow stripes, but this piles further weight on the museum car being #107. Why would this hood have been switched to another car?

Gib

Not to add any confusion...

- First is vehicle pass for N0. 0020

- Second and third is of Singer's Targa notes for No. 0588

These out of Busing, Cotton, Davenport, Muller, and Oursler's "PORSCHE 911 in Racing"

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Chuck:

Can you see in your documents if the oil door is visible on #3, as I cannot see the detail well enough? If not, it is possible that the tank and door had been removed prior to sending the car to the TF race, maybe to make it look more like a 73. This seems to confirm that the #3 car, which was a 72 originally, was sent to the TF and most likely raced as 107, because it has the arrow stripes on the hood and cowl and none other did.

My original conclusion had been that Starkey's book which shows 020 as R2, really confirmed the RS book comment that "RS2" was numbered 107 at the TF race, and that this was a renumbered 72 chassis.

This would also confirm that the museum car (020 as stated in their records) is in fact #107 from the TF race.

Let the arguments fly.

Gib

Chuck
great photos!

Just to be devils advocate in regard to RS #20 (R2):

How do we know that the photo in the Wagenpass is indeed of R2?
That livery, and the number 3 was used by the marketing department. Indeed that car (or more likely one looking like it) was present at the press conference for the 1973 season where the Martini and Rossi sponsorship deal was announced. So how many were there running around in the identical livery and number as a marketing exercise?

I don't know the date of the press conference but it was likely to be late 1972 early 1973 so what is the chance of that #3 car there being the 72 shown on this thread?

Assuming it is R2 in the wagenpass photo, I can't see an oil door on the photo but the resolution is poor. The Wagenpass is dated March 73, well after the Tour De Corse in Nov 72 and even in the photos of R2 in that event I can't see an oil door.

So what is wrong with the theory that R2 went to the Targa, along with R6 and R8 and a couple of other cars but did not get to run due to accident damage .

This scenario would be that all three R cars were genuine 3 litre prototypes based on 73 shells (and one would have expected them to run in prototype class).

However, interestingly, according to the entry list, initially only car #8 and car #9 were entered in prototype class - or "sport 3000". #107 was entered in "GT over 2000" along with RSR's #110, #112 and #113 and other 911's #109, #111 & #114. (for what it is worth #106 came 7th; #113 came 8th and #110 came 18th so there were plenty of RSR's and RS's there)

We know that R6 won. However maybe both R2 and R8 had accidents in practice - there are, as this thread suggests, rumors of 2 cars striking trouble - and 2 1972 shell based mules were pressed into service for the race as #9 and #107.

That would mean that R2, presumably the museum car, simply did not compete in the race, rather than it being on a 72 shell as the videos seem to show.

From the original video in the car park at practice, day 1 #107 had the same front livery as R2 shows in the Wagenpass. Maybe IT was R2 but it was replaced for the race with a 72 shell car. Presumably any press or "T" car would also be tricked up like the publicity #3 car to get the best publicity for the sponsors. So it would not necessarily be correct to assume that just because the scuttle shows mismatching centre stripes like those on R2's wagenpass that this was indeed R2.

i 'm pretty sure rs#016 was used as press car then there was an accident in practice of the targa and it was pressed into service for the race;the car beneath it's paint had original factory martini strips,it was built in 7/72 with a
'72 shell.I don't know were it is today,I SOLD IT TO KEVIN JEANETTE,I think he sold it to phil bagley

Great info Frank

Some of the resto of that car is on the Gunnar racing site - including the martini stripes under the scuttle - but the whole story behind the car was never revealed on the site

I believe a #3 press car was the same car as the red Strahle car based on photos in the RS Book showing the rear bumper with a mud guard that appears to be the same, plus the exhaust opening in the metal rear bumper, along with other attributes. I believe the FG bumperettes were added to the stock metal license panel to make the car look like the standard RSR, just based on these photos.

The red 72 shown earlier in this thread appears to have the front spoiler changed from the Strahle race version, as well as the sponser and number gumball on the hood, but it still appears to be the same car.

It is possible that there were more than one press car with #3. Chuck's picture of #3 appears to show a deeper front spoiler than the 107 car shows in the Porsche Sport picture from the TF, so maybe 020 also carried that number for press purposes.

Whether the museum car is in fact the 107 car from the TF may be doubtful, but here are some attributes about the museum car (if it is 020) that would suggest it is not a "new 491 RSR" but a converted 72.

Dash is from a production 911
Headliner shows rear opening windows had been there
Oil door release hole in B pilar and tank mount boss

The hood in my opinion is definitely from the 107 car.

Jim Calzia's comments about E42 still leave a mystery as to what VIN that car was, and which paint scheme it carried.

Gib

Gib

I would tend to agree with you that the red "Strahle car", known to be a covert factory prototype RSR, the red 72 pictured with the white RS (at Paul Ricard?), and the #3 "wind tunnel" car are all one and the same car.

Starkey identifies this as "Originally a 911S/T 2.5 M491. 9112300841 – Noted as "Scrapped" 25/08/72". and then manufactured and renumbered as 9113600002.

I think this is also Singer's E42, and Jim Calzia made a similar comment. It would certainly fit the description. I think it may also be the #3 car shown as the "press car" you posted on post #103.

IF so, it would possibly have had that livery when used as a T car at the Targa, and with not much effort (a changed engine and a new bonnet and numbers) it could resemble the pics of #107, and on return to the factory it was used in the wind tunnel again as #3. (the #3 car in the wind tunnel has identical decals and oval roundels to the 107 car save for the number and the bonnet that we cant see).

I must say I am becoming more sceptical about whether the museum car is indeed R2 given Gib's observations.

On a related note can anyone identify the first Pic below - race number 8 with the arrow lke the #3 car but with a "mary stuart" and a very deep spoiler?
the second is R7 (#686) (race number 6 and an arrow ) at Nurburgring on 27 May 1973, and the third I have just found in researching this - another side of #107 at the Targa - but sadly not adding any light to this debate.

The reason is I am trying to work out whether the different livery styles for the Martini stripes were assigned to individual cars - thus maybe helping to identify #107 and #9 as I have never seen the #9 car style on any other car.

Hugh:

I agree with your comments about 107 being the 002 E42 car, and Jim Calzia's comments from Singer's notes seem to also.

Looking further at the RS book, the 020 car (EO-ZA-69) identified as Larrousse's drive in the 72 Tour de Corse, you can see the engine bay decals, along with rear flares that appear to be bonded on which would suggest that it was not an original RSR, but remanufactured from another car. It was described as being converted from a "rally" car to a "track" car. Also, in the spec listing section, 020 has only a roll bar and aux. heater as options, along with Michelin tires which no other RS/RSR seems to have. All these factors seem to suggest that it was not a newly built 491 RSR (all of which had Dunlop tires) but a converted car, which would fit with the production features I photographed on the museum car. It could have been a converted 72S, or a 471/472 RS (built with a 72 oil door release hole) that was converted to RSR specs.

Gib

Gib
I see what you say about LEO ZA 69. It is supposed to be the Larrousse #2 car in the Tour de Corse which is supposed to be R2.
The rear guard looks very "tacked on" but that photo is not consistent with other photos I have of Larrousse in the event. Maybe that photo is really of the modified ST? or after an "off"
One other complicating factor is that I have photos (below) that show that race #2 (supposedly R2) was on a car with registration 68 AND 69 at some stage around that rally.

Another photo of race #2 on registration # 68 is in the B&W photo on page 163 of the RS book! So that makes it uncertain which chassis you have in your photo:confused:

I have attached some other ones of #2 in the event - they look fine to me.

I am not sure that I would take any notice of the engine bay decals. I think they were on many RSR's as well as on the RS's.

On another matter this is interesting:
Extract from race report of 1973 Targa page 175 of RS book

"After Giulio Pucci destroyed both the practice car (described earlier on that page as "mongrel" an older vintage car supplied by the Porsche test division- outfitted with racing suspension and a series production 210 hp engine) and the competition car during the practice laps, Porsche racing chief Singer decided to put a 300-HP replacement engine in the old training "mongrel" and race it. Gunther Steeckkonig, Porsche technician and amateur race car driver, joined forces with young Pucci and piloted this car to a sixth-place overall finish."

To me this clearly states that Mongrel was #107 in the race. We know that #8 was 588, which means that car #9 was RSR #20 or R2 - if all of this can be believed (unless IT was the race car "destroyed" by Pucci). If so whatever happened to R8:confused: .

The photos clearly show car #9 with an oil door.

Obviously this does not solve the identity of "mongrel" - just adds one more twist:eek:

I do see that both 68 and 69 have the #2 roundel on them in those pictures. Not sure why that would happen. On p. 162 in the RS book there are additional pictures of the car with the tacked on flares, and I think these were taken at the Paul Ricard track after 020 R2 had been "transformed from a rally to race car" as discussed in the RS book. I think the flares would have been part of the transformation process. Also, the R1 68 car had an incident in Corsica and then was used for a long stint as a test vehicle on the "Panzer" track (not sure where that is), so it does not seem to have been taken to the TF in 73.

I agree with your conclusion that R2 020 was the #9 car in the TF, and it was called into action after Pucci damaged 2 cars in practice. This car was not painted in Martini livery as noted earlier as it was a practice vehicle apparently brought along by Singer.

I think the "Mongrel" was 107 based on the summary of the event on pgs. 175, 176 in the RS book. It had been the Strahle car, the #3 press car, and had a 210 hp RS engine for some reason prior to being used in the TF with one of Singer's 3.0 race engines, so had a very mixed up heritage at that point.

I think these facts seem to confirm earlier comments about the museum car being a remanufactured 72 ST, as do the pictures of the 69 car from the Tour de Corse rally that you posted (even though you can't see the oil door).

Gib

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pgxif

surely i detect a challenge here ? :D
First person to get the hood up and chassis number of the car in the museum gets ... well nothing ... but is a real hero ??!!:eek:

would certainly assist in the discussion !!!

---

Eh, sorry guys. Went there yesterday with the missus after following this thread with great interest for months. We waited for the woman at the museum to be looking the other way before opening the rubber straps en lifting the hood for making these pictures, just before we were interrupted:

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8463/p10021if5.jpg http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2750/p10022mn4.jpg

So, unfortunately, two sharp pictures, but no VIN! I stupidly expected the interior to be similar to my 911T, but without the carpet, so I pointed the camera to the left side.... forgetting the extra large tank and the strange place for the battery. So, sorry for that, but at least the good news is:
1) it is possible to open te hood. (even without being thrown out)
2) If someone tells us here where exactly to look for in a RSR we did get one step further.....;)

REALLY enjoying this thread!

I think we are missing two major points here:

1: Which were the two RSRs that Pucci crashed in practice?

2: What happened to 0002 after the Targa Florio? It has never, to my knowledge, re appeared. Doesn't this make it a prime candidate to be one of the two cars Pucci crashed?

Have fun!

John Starkey

Hi John

From what is written in this thread by various contributers, and what is missing in race records for the balance of 1973, I would have thought the "race car" destroyed was R8 (9113600974). It was at Monza, then went to the Targa but disappeared from sight after that.

Isn't the 1974 RSR turbo R8 also the 1973 RSR #974, effectively only reappearing on the track nearly a year after the 1973 targa?

The hard question is whether there was a "practice car" AND a "training car" both with the possibility of being called "mongrel", one of which was "destroyed", or only one "extra" car that was damaged and then put back together and run in the event.

The RS book I quoted in post #111 above suggests that the "Practice" car was damaged and then the race car and then the T car was made up with a 3 litre race engine. This T car was supposed to have full race chassis and suspension but was "old" (but lapped almost as fast as the race car).

This still leaves the possibility open that the T car and the practice car are one and the same, as it does not specify WHAT damage was done - it could have been engine?

I think on the balance of probabilities that the mongrel that ran as 107 and finished 3rd, with no apparent damage, was 002, the ex Strahle car as the notes record it being supplied by the Porsche test division (although it is possible I suppose that it was 001 the ex Zasada car which was supposedly being used in the press area)

In that case 002 would have survived at least to go back to the factory and maybe used as a T car for more events.

It would have been well past its use by date at that stage and it is not surprising that it disappeared after that - by all accounts it should not have been in competition at that stage and they had a number of new "R" cars coming on board.

There is every possibility that it was scrapped but who knows - maybe it is sitting out there in a barn waiting to be found :eek:

John:

I think the documentation from the race videos and pictures after confirm that 002 was raced as #107. Somewhere the records must exist telling the story of what happened to this car. It belonged to the factory, and having been considered a "mongrel", it could have been sold to a private collector as one explanation as to why it has never been seen.

This brings to mind a question: did the factory restamp the front plate behind the tank when they renumbered a car? One reason for lack of 002 further documtation could be from lack of good identification of the chassis. The car could have been raced by a privateer after being sold by the factory, but the records of what it was were lost along the way.

Gib

varunan123;

I think Hugh's comment on #107 finishing third was only a misprint, as he earlier pointed out that it finished 6th.

I will stick to the conclusion that #107 was the Strahle and Martini #3 press
car, and was 002 which was a 72S renumbered, and was the mongrel car. In the pictures of the Martini #3 press car, the external oil lines are clearly visible. I can't see in the video whether they are there or not, but I will bet they are. The hood had been changed to the U shaped Martini version, and it is easy to believe that the hoods and fuel tanks were changed to fit the needs of the event.

I think #9 was one of the Leo Za rally cars, which got renumbered as 020 and used with the 3.0 engine in tests in late 72, took 3rd at TF, and most likely is the Museum car. It was white as a rally car, but that doesn't mean the interior wasn't black like the museum car, which has a production type of interior with rear window opening bracket holes seen the photo at the museum. As a 72S rally car it would have had this kind of interior.

I am not sure we have much disagreement, except maybe on which car #107 was.

Gib

recently purchased a 1973 carrera rsr,and was playing on the internet,went to pcna,their classic site;they state that the museum car is serial#9113600020
my car at sebring not lemans

ps Patrick911 - i think you've done enough to justify hero status .. regardless of the lack of VIN, great effort !!

Here some more shots that help clear the air. #9 has the riveted on flares
and red top that would identify it as Larrousse's renumbered 72S and the Museum car 020.

If you look closely, you can see the small mud flap on the rear of #107s fender well, which looks like the one on the #3 Press car used in the wind tunnel tests, and the red (or tangerine) prototype car pictured in the RS book. Also, the Martini stripes do not go over the top of the car, which corresponds to the #3 press car.

I think this clears up most of the mystery for me. The Museum car is the renumbered Larrousse car, and I also think this points toward 107 being the factory "mongrel".

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe #17
EarlyS #434

...just moments apart...(pic from page 2)

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8874/untitledcr7.png
Shot at 2007-08-04

Clearly the restoration of the Museum RSR wasn't too bothered with period details...they placed "Elf" stickers on the wings while the factory was sponsored by "Shell" in 1973. Although the Shell logo was even reproduced on the official Targa Florio poster published after the race....

Great pics and info.

Does anybody have any knowledge of what happened to 9113600002, renumbered 72S, factory prototype RSR, #107 at 73 Targa Florio?

Maybe Jim Calzia's new article with inputs from Norbert Singer will reveal the true story of what happened to this "factory mongrel".

Gib Bosworth

3 pair of Cibie lights is a bit over the top isn't it? Or was it like that originally?

I'm curious to know more about the R2 at Gunnar, as it could be the answer to the RSR TF confusion....

Thanks, these are amazing documents and fantastic period photographs which I had never seen. I wonder who wrote on the invoice "too much don't pay"....

.........:)

What bothers me about that Wagenpass document showing #3 with s/n 9113600020 (with the Martini stripes on the hood flaring out to the corners of the hood) is that this appears to be the #3 press car (maybe there were 2 cars with #3). 020 is the museum car. The #9 car, which I had concluded is the museum car, did not have the Martini stripes on the hood in the race, most likely because it had been the Zasada rally car (red top left from the Red/white paint scheme, bottom of car painted silver for Targa race with blue stripes above rain gutters to look somewhat like the Martini scheme, rivited flares in rear, plus 72 oil filler).

So does this document mean the museum car is really #107 not #9 from the Targa? Where is Jim Calzia and Norbert Singer when you need them?

Gib

Another possibility is that the wagenpass document could have been incorrectly filled out...instead of the #3 car being listed as 911 360 002, which is documented as the car that finished 6th at the TF as #107, the #3 car could have been listed as 911 360 020 on the wagenpass.

I think there is little doubt that the #3 car is the car that was renumbered as #107 for the race after Pucci wrecked 2 cars in practice.

Gib

The wing struts were just hand fabricated during the race event most likely. I think it has been pointed out that they were not on the cars during earlier photos at the event.

This shot of #9 is one piece of convincing evidence that it was the 72S rally car of Larrousse renumbered to be a 911 360 VIN. The riveted flares, plus the red top of the car are compelling evidence of its origin. The question remains, is this the museum car?

Gib Bosworth

One point of contention I have with Starkey's article...019 R1 was a renumbered 73 S (9113300789), not "the first RS/RSR" according to the RS Carrera Book, p. 162-163. It is also likely that 020 R2 was a renumbered car...and looking at the museum car, it could be a 72 because of the oil release button hole in the passenger side B panel (the oil tank having been taken out later). It could have been a 73 RS 471 or 472, with the factory using up a panel with an oil button hole in it, but not likely. The other production features in the interior...holes for a rear qtr window opening hinge, and a standard looking dash could apply to either 72 or 73 RS production (472 conversion). Either way, it was not originally an 491 RSR conversion, because of the initial options (aux heater, roll bar, no LSD), and in the pictures in the RS Book, both Tour de Corse rally cars had RS or ST type flares, and then R2 was converted from a rally car to a track car...presumably with the tacked on RSR rear flares as shown on #9 at the TF.

In my mind it is still a toss up as to whether 001 (as Starkey concludes) or 020 R2 ended up being the #9 car finishing 3rd at the TF. We know that both were there, but did 020 R2 end up in the race, or was it 001? Jim Calzia comments earlier in this thread that the green trimmed front bumper from R8 that crashed was put on 020 R2, and in the videos of the race, the green bumper is easy to spot on #9. Wouldn't the factory put one of the cars in the museum that actually raced at the TF, and not one that crashed in practice?

Gib Bosworth
R Gruppe 17
EarlyS 434

while looking for pics of the LEO-ZA cars (see other thread) I came across this pic of #107 at the 1973 Targa.
It appears to be a pic taken at practice rather than the race and thereefore must be one of the cars Pucci wrecked??
Note the different Martini livery. Unfortunately it is at the wrong angle to see if there is an oil door.
the pic came from the Sept 1998 copy of European Car magazine that had the Porsche 50 year feature in it

Hugh:

Great find! This shot is interesting because the RSR has silver trimmed turn signal lenses, and that rear flare looks kind of like the 107 RSR that finished 6th, which as we know was a 72S renumbered. The Martini livery on the hood looks like the #3 press car style, which is the 72S renumbered car. So this picture could be of that car before R8 crashed.

One explanation could be that when R8 (which was the other #107 at the race), was crashed, the fuel tank, and maybe because of the filler holes, the hood was replaced to match from the wrecked R8. R8 was a May 73 built RSR (0974), so would have possibly had a more suitable long distance tank, and would have had the later style Martini livery on the hood. R8 would have had black TS trimmed lenses, so I don't think it would be this car.

Gib

Two days ago, I read over the entire thread and became so confused on the different possible RSR versions of the Museum Targa car that I sent an email to the Porsche Museum.

Today, I got a reply :eek: from the assistant curator:

"You are right, the 911 RSR showed at the Porsche Museum is not the actual Targa winner.

This is the actual history of the museum-car:

1973 Le Mans, 14th, Gregg/Chasseuil
1973 pre-training Le Mans, 4-hour race:4th, Schurti/Koinigg
1973 Targa Florio, 3th, Kinunnen/Haldi

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me."

So the Museum car is indeed number 9113600020 (race #9) which finished 3rd!:p

well so much for factory scam;check my post #121 where I state that the PCANA web site list the museum car as #20;this thread has been great with history and photos,but no scam,museum states car is #20 web site claims #20;the car is #20 period

Why then, would the factory try to pass this #9 car (which has an almost as important history) off as #8...?
Specially since they must have known that mr Kitchak has the original #8

Looking back: it would have made the Rennsport reunion picture much more impressive, if both #8 and #9 stood next to each other.

I don't think I'm 100% convinced ....yet. :D

So less than a month after the Targa Florio (13th May), The "museum car " was sent by the factory to Le Mans (June 9 and 10th) to run under the Porsche Sonauto BP team colours (#48) with Gregg and Chasseuil, and arrived 14th.

No wonder they had lost the original Martini paint scheme by the time the Museum restored the car!

This is the only image I found:

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/1720/810sc6.jpg

I tend to agree with Patrick911 that restoring the car as #9 would have been better, and more historically correct of course. Here is what the document says that is on display with the RSR at the museum: (my picture is too small to post and read)

"This car was based on the Carrera RS registered for the road, a 210 bhp Porsche 911 weighing 900 kg. In the RSR version, the 2.8 litre flat six was initially rated at 300 bhp, but was enlarged to 3 litres and 315 bhp later. In 1973, the race car that many customers also used in competition achieved its first successful results: the RSR won three international and seven German championships in 1973. Herbert Muller and Gus van Lennep won the last Targa Florio in 1973. This 911 wrote sports history; Rs and RSR models won just about every GT category race in 1973 and the years that followed."

This description seems to say that the RSR on display is representative of the RSR program, and it doesn't say it is the car that won the TF. So, no scam intended...but if any of us owned the car, we would probably have it restored to the #9 look I think.

Gib

Milou, you solved it! I have followed this tread and it has been great even if it has been difficult to understand all of it. Would be great to know the facts about how many car where acctually used in the race and training and how many of them crached. Maybe the factory has the answers Milou?

John

You're right. I was thinking to wait a while, and if still needed, go back to the factory through one consolidated email with all the relevant questions.

I don't want to harrass them as I'm hoping to be welcomed next year when I go and see the Museum!;)

One picture of it, but it is blur.

http://manu2341s.free.fr/images/le%2...R%20n%b048.jpg

Quote:

---

This is the actual history of the museum-car:

1973 Le Mans, 14th, Gregg/Chasseuil
1973 pre-training Le Mans, 4-hour race:4th, Schurti/Koinigg

---

When searching for this, I noticed different chassisnumbers of the 14th arrival of 73 Le Mans.

Here it states that entry:
#48 Sonauto BP Racing 911 360 1033 Gregg/Chasseuil finished 14th

HTML Code:

---

http://www.classicscars.com/chassis/porsche/rsr28.htm

---

HTML Code:

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http://www.teamdan.com/archive/wsc/1973/73lemans.html

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and not 911 360 0020 (R2)

Also, while searching for the results of the practice and 4hr race of Le Mans, only the following turned up:

Test weekend and 4 hours of Le mans entry:
#62 Martini racing 911 360 0020 (R2) van Lennep/Muller
(note that these are different dribvers then mentioned by the museum)

However, in the 24Hr entry it never shows this car anymore. Lennep and Muller did race, but in entry:
#46 Martini racing 911 360 0686 (R7) van Lennep/Muller

Funny stuff, Schurti and Koenig did enter the 4 hrs race (entry #61, and became 4th indeed...... in 911 360 0588 (!!!)

HTML Code:

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http://wsrp.ic.cz/nonchamp1973.html

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I know that data on the internet is really unreliable, but as mentioned before, it adds only more confusion indeed.....

Milou
well done: great initiative to get that information
However I do agree that it adds more questions than it answers:eek:
Is is good to get the factory's confirmation that R2 was car #9 at the Targa. I dont think there was ever any real question
that it was the actual winner, car #8, - the history of that car is too well documented.

it does however raise the following questions:

1 Given the clear photos of car 9 with an oil door and a third "cutout for its exhaust, is R2 a converted 1972 ST despite its presence in the list of official RS's and 1973 production numbers, or just built on a 1972 shell?

2 was R2 one of the LEO-ZA cars at all despite the claim in the RS book that is was LEA-ZA-69? see thread http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ad.php?t=16839

The response from the factory does not mention this event at all but it may not have been asked the direct question.


Other questions that have not been solved by this are:

We still do not know the identity of the 107 car for certain and which car(s) were wrecked by Pucci. R8 seems a good candidate but was there another one or did the practice car get fixed.

The statement that R2 was also the Sonauto #48 car at Le Mans only weeks after the targa is interesting. Like patrick911 I had it recorded that this car was 1033. However that information has only come from website information and may well be incorrect. It must be more likely that the factory would be correct on this.

I have attached a pic of the Gregg Sonauto car taken from the rear. It seems to have silver light trims BUT it also does not seem to have an oil door. It is very hard to tell with the quality of the pic but when I blew it up I could not find one. Also the pic is too dark to see if it has the third exhaust outlet that car #9 had at the targa.

Finally when was this race??
"1973 pre-training Le Mans, 4-hour race:4th, Schurti/Koinigg"

how does it fit in with the Targa and Le Mans schedule

Nice find Hugh! :cool:

Another interesting question is:

Why, if Martini Racing has apparently at least 2 RSR's ('0588' and '0020'), why then would it sell this 0020 to Sonauto BP during the race-season and race with 0686 instead.....

That doesn't make any sense. So unless otherwise proven, I believe the '360 1033' for the Sonauto car to be correct...


By the way: Timeline of the championship (and non-championship races) in 1973:
April 1 Le mans testing weekend & 4 hrs of Le Mans
May 13 Targa Florio
June 9/10 24hrs Le Mans

Patrick

Another related question is why would R2, which was a prototype class car entered in class S 3.0 at the le mans test weekend on April 1 and in the same class at the Targa, be entered in the lower GTS 3 class at Le Mans when the other "R" cars were entered in S 3.0 class at Le Mans and the "customer" cars entered in GTS 3?

Maybe the factory was simply "helping" a favored importer (and driver Gregg) and giving itself the best chance of winning in the post 917 era?? Certainly by then there were other, newer, R cars available to the factory team, and loaning a solid performer to a favored team was common practice.

I know there was a decision at the start of the season for the factory to only compete in prototype class and leave GTS to customer cars. However I would have thought that there was more to changing class back from prototype than just changing the drive train ??

In any event this site http://wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/...champ1973.html

shows R2 car #62 entered by Martini Racing and winning the 4 hour with Gijs van Lennep and Herbert Müller driving and R6 (0588) , car 61, in fourth with Manfred Schurti and Helmuth Koinigg.

BUT......Given a choice between believing this and believing the factory I would go for the factory version, especially since I would have thought that Gijs van Lennep and Herbert Müller would have been more likely to get the newer R6 which was also the car they drove at Monza 1000km (DNF) 25.4.1973; the winning car at the Targa 13.5.1973; and Zeltweg 1000km 24.6.1973.


Therefore it IS likely that R2 was the #61 car a the Le Mans test on April 1, then did the Targa in May and then Le Mans in June for Sonauto.

Many of the other R cars had busier schedules. (apart from the races mentioned above R6 was also at Vallelunga (25.3.1973); Spa (6.5.1973) - only a week before the Targa; Le Mans (10.6.1973); and Watkins Glen ( 21.7.1973) for Penske racing.)

the more interesting questions for me (as stated on a previous post) are was R2 on a 72 shell (or maybe it was also crashed at the targa and the pics we have are of a stand-in:confused: ) and was it one of the tour de course LEO cars in late 1972 ?

How right you are. I thought the Museum had provided me with the answers I needed (which it did) but several questions remain unanswered.

I believe that the factory assisted team Sonauto (the official Porsche importer for France) by lending them cars for major races.

In any case, I wrote back to the Museum and got this reply:

"The Museum-RSR is the car which Pucci had damaged at the Florio practice session.
The mechanics fixed it in the night to Sunday - more or less. But it could race.

The chassis number is 9113600020. That's all I know."

Hope it helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by varunan123

Let's suppose there were five cars at the targa-there is some evidence that five cars were there.We know that 0588 was number 8,if R2-20 was damaged and the mongrel was substitued that would make sence that there is little sponsership insignia and 72 tub.That leaves 107-we know that 0002 was there asigned to singers team that would explain the 72 tub on 107.The three cars asigned to the team were-0588,0020,0002.

---

I understood there were 3 R cars 588 R6, 20 R2; and 974 R8 assigned to the team for the Targa with a practice car that had been there a couple of weeks (as the other cars and the drivers had been racing elsewhere in Europe in that time) I think Jim Calzia said the same. What happened to 974 R8 which was supposed to be the original #107? Was it the rumored "other " Pucci victim?

here is another photo of the #48 car at Le mans - i still can't see an oil door but in taking the car back to GTS class that might have all been changed - especially if the car had damage from the Targa. that might explain the black horn grills as well.

If # 9 RSR was lent to the Sonauto team after the Targa to race at Le Mans, it must have been fixed by the factory in the weeks between the two races (as the repair of the Pucci crash had clearly been rushed).

Since the car didn't run with the "Mary Stuart" spoiler at le Mans (as seen in the photograph), could the factory have changed the entire back wings (removing in the process the trap door) and possibly allowing for even thicker rims to be fitted, better suited for circuit racing?

I watched it and I do see the blue trim of the red/blue roof on # 9. The trap door is difficult to see though, but it seems to have the 73 black trim on the lights and horns (unlike #107).

As the factory stated, Pucci also wrecked #9. They fixed it using the green bumper, possibly repairing the flares with rivets, and adding the Mary Stuart spoiler.

The repaired car ended up looking like a 72 chassis car, possibly explaining the confusion. The car being a 73 RSR (according to the chassis number) would explain why the factory doesn't have any prior race record for the car.;)

020 R2 #9

It's possible that the factory wanted a larger oil tank than the smaller 72 tank (assuming it was a 72 chassis) for the LeMans 24, plus they probably wanted to update the rear quarters to replace the tacked on flares. There may have also been some damage done to the oil system in the crash at the TF as has been suggested, and maybe some FIA equipment rules were an issue for the LeMans race that needed to be changed on the car. One can imagine all the frantic activity that was going on with the factory cars and supporting customer cars with only a couple of weeks to get everything rebuilt, refurbished, and set up ready for a 24 hr. race. It's no surprise that some of the details got lost in all the flurry.

Gib Bosworth

#8

The winning car, a 73 RSR (no oil trap) still in private hands today.

#107

If I understand correctly the #107 was the #3 press car, based on a 72 tub. The hood was changed during practice possibly after Pucci damaged the car.

It is also possible that the entire car #107 was too damaged and replaced at some point by the practice car (fourth RSR, Mongrel?).

#9 could be:

- 73 chassis, supported by the lack of earlier race record at the museum, the chassis number, and 73 details such as black trims of light etc...

It would mean that the factory included an oil trap door on this car, or it was not there originally but repaired that way (?) when it was fixed overnight prior to the race? Difficult to say from the paddock practice video if the flares were already rivetted, if the oil trap was really there, and even if the roof was already red.

- recycled 72 chassis, supported by the presence of the oil trap door and rivets on the flared wings.

- Because of the "odd" Martini decoration, the car could have been (like #107 or instead of) entirely replaced by another RSR (the 4th "Mongrel" RSR, or possibly a 5th car), although the museum records claim that the damage on #9 was repaired, and the car was raced.


Without getting into various chassis numbers, is this where we stand at the moment?

I found Count Pucci's address in Sicily but I'm not sure he will remember what happened and which cars he wrecked. In a French magazine from June 1970 (Sport Auto) they mention that car number 9 arrived 3rd because it collided heavily with another car and had to be repaired....

The Car # 9113600017 Was The Press Car Porsche Used,i Recall Being Told It Was Sent To The Targa After One Of The Cars Crashed,it Was Also Used As The Factory Bruchure Car,when I Got The Car There Was Original Martini Paint Unfer The Paint,kevin Jeanette Felt This To Be Original Factory Paint,see Gunnar Web Site Of Restoration Photos,maybe The History Of This Car Should Be Explored!

it worked..........www.zasadasa.pl/

Whoa........ how cool is THAT!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fg1227

it worked..........www.zasadasa.pl/

---

Check out this link on the Zasadasa website.

http://www.zasadasa.pl/english/sobie...ada/index.html

I'd say this guy has the 'Right Stuff':)

Anyone know how to pause the video sequence, there are some interesting photos to study further.

here is one of Larrousse and one of Waldergard at the 72 Monte

I thought both those cars were 72 ST's

i am not sure if I have any numbers or other details but will look later and post if I can find them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by varunan123

more photos

---

Raj......I have current photos of this car but they too big to post and I don't have any software here.......I'll try to post tomorrow.

:)

Aaron

I thought i did as well.. but I may have lost them when my laptop crashed last year. Whatever ....I cant find them today:(

I did find this one however. I think it is Larrousse in 72 (just can see tricolor on door against the names not the Swedish Flag.

in the middle of the SEB decal.is that an oil door??

Here they are......maybe it's the same car or a replica?

http://www.plavanracing.com/porschestpage1.htm

Aaron

Thanks! They were the pics i had, and I had lost the link as well.
I am sure it is the real deal - the Larrousse car from 1972.
I have attached 2 pics - note the oil door and the engine detail.

the pic of Larrousse was in the 1972 Crit&#233;rium des C&#233;vennes.
I don't know what date that was at this stage but will look for it in the next day or so if no-one finds it sooner.

the other pics of S-AK-1336 that I posted are recent. They are from tour auto a couple of years ago. so that car is alive and well somewhere - probably in Europe. someone on the board must know it.

The pic of Larrousse at the 1972 Critérium des Cévennes was taken aFTER the Tour de Course in late 1972. Apparently the Critérium des Cévennes ends the French rallye season and is in late november. So I dont think there is any chance that the car shown with Larrousse driving for Louis Meznarie would be a factory TDC car

"Cevennes test of 1972, created in 1959, closes the season of the French rallys in November, after the Turn of Corsica."

I sent him a letter, will see how or if her responds. I didn't want to call him, but will do so in a couple of weeks if I haven't heard from him.

Gentlemen:

The factory built two "special" 911S/Ts for 1970, 911 030 0949 and 0950; Within the factory, they were known as "Rallye" cars. They had 2.2 engines. Later, 0949 eceived a 2.4 litre engine, still in 1970 and was known as the "Proto". Their histories are below:

Chassis number 911 030 0949.

1970:REG: S-R 2970.
?/1: Monte Carlo Rally: Waldegaard/Halmer; 2nd.
6-10/5: Alpine Rally, Austria: Waldegaard/Halmer; 1st.
14-18/11: RAC Rally: Larrousse/Wood; 6th.

2 x Shell schemed cars. Larrousse + Meznarie.

1971: Engine 2,395 cc. Has 6 and 8 inch wide Minilites.
?/1: Monte Carlo Rally: J. Barth. (As a service car).

1/03: Sold to Louis Meznarie of Paris. Kept on trade plates.
?/03: Montlhery: Larrousse;
01/5: Magny Cours: Larrousse;
?/06: Montlhery: Barth;
?/07: Rouen: S, Garaint;
?/07: Cote du Nord: Larrousse;
14/7: Magny Cours: Chelly;
?/08: Cote Inter Mont Dore: Larrousse;
?/09: Tour de France:Barth/Dolhem, #132; DNF. Reg. #: 48330C91. Psychedelic Shell colours.
?/10: Coupe du Salon, Montlhery; S. Garaint;

Sold to G. Larrousse. Painted in Gulf Blue.

1972:
?/04: Nurburgring (EC-GT): G. Larrousse;

Sold to Philippe Burlet, Paris. France.
2 x successful seasons in National events.
1974: Sold to Raymond Touroul.
1990: Sold to Philippe d’Agostino, Paris.
1992: Tour Auto, France.
2000: Sold to USA.
Another car with the same chassis number is in the USA.
2002: STP0. Europe.



1970: 911 ST.
Engine type: 911/02. Number: 630 1281.
Capacity: 2195 cc.
Gearbox: Type 901.
Weight: 789 Kg.

Chassis number 911 030 0950. Reg. #: S-R 2971

1970:
Swedish Rally: Andersen/Torzelius; DNF.
?/07: Polish Rally: Zasada; 2nd OA.

Apparently wrecked in a rally practice accident.
Factory says: "Burned out."

So, I have always thought that it is possible that as there are TWO 0949s, and as one has been in clear sight since 1972, there has been some sort of mix up in the chassis numbering. Just my thoughts, you understand.

On to 911 360 0019. Yes, Hugh it IS strange that this car has "disappeared". I have a note it was damaged in a practice accident in the 1973 Targa Florio with Steckkonig/Pucci but no confirmation.

Incidentally, the factory entered just two RSRs per race in 1973, with the exception of the Targa, where we know they entered three; Quite why this was so, I have no idea excep that, as it was such a long-distance, arduous race, the factory decided to try a "strength in numbers" approach. Certainly, as a works team, they had race numbers 8 and 9 allotted to them, 107 being a number the organizers of the Targa would have kept back for late entries. Also, Claude Haldi and Pucci were not works drivers;neither was Kinnuned by 1973.

As we now know, there were four RSRs at the 1973 Targa: 0588, (the eventual winner), 0974, (the latest built RSR) 0020 (according to the museum...) and....a practice car. Pucci had two crashes in separate cars in practice, one of them being repaired in time for the race, (See Singer's notes). As 0974 does not reappear after the Targa Florio, I ASSUME this was the RSR that Pucci wrote off/severely damaged, hence the "mongrel" being pressed into service on race day...

Also, the World Championship race schedule was such that I believe the cars that raced in the Spa 1000Kms on the 6th May, were NOT the cars that raced in the Targa Florio, held on the very next weekend. The distance was such that the cars could not have been serviced and transported in time. Far more likely is it that the cars that raced in the Monza 1000Kms on the 25th April, were used at the Targa Florio; (Italy down to Sicily). This would hve allowed 0020, 0588, (I think it's Spa result was gained by another car, 0686), and 0974.

That's all for now!

John Starkey

- It's interesting to note that in a Summary of the 73 Le Mans race, "Sport Auto" (a French car magazine)mentions that the Porsche factory sent to le Mans 3 Carrera: two official RSR in Martini livery, and one lent to the Sonauto French team (confirming the car was not sold to Sonauto just lent). This indeed confirms that the factory ran only 2 official cars per race.

- On the video front of the 107 at the Targa, I do believe that the film has been "cut and paste" into sequences and only the hood has been changed, but the car remains the same. Did you find evidence besides the hood that we are dealing with 2 different 107 cars?

And finally..

having spent the day on Porsche research! The 1973 Gregg/Chasseuil RSR at Le Mans may very well NOT be the Erlen Buchet/Ballot-Lena car!

I have just found a photo of the car in Norbert Singer's "24:16" book, (P45), showing the car, now with center lock wheels and a strange tail, without rear fenders and with HUGE 15 inch wide rear wheels, being tested on the Weissach skid pad. Norbert sys 1972, so an early RSR/late 2.5S/T to begin with. So which car was this Works owned car?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by letsrollbabe

Hugh:

Great find! This shot is interesting because the RSR has silver trimmed turn signal lenses, and that rear flare looks kind of like the 107 RSR that finished 6th, which as we know was a 72S renumbered. The Martini livery on the hood looks like the #3 press car style, which is the 72S renumbered car. So this picture could be of that car before R8 crashed.

One explanation could be that when R8 (which was the other #107 at the race), was crashed, the fuel tank, and maybe because of the filler holes, the hood was replaced to match from the wrecked R8. R8 was a May 73 built RSR (0974), so would have possibly had a more suitable long distance tank, and would have had the later style Martini livery on the hood. R8 would have had black TS trimmed lenses, so I don't think it would be this car.

Gib

---

From post #152

Varunan123:

I agree with you that the hood was changed between 107 cars because of the crash of R8. We are getting to what really happened I think, slowly but surely.

Gib Bosworth

Slight correction to the above:

On later page, Singer says this test took place in July 1973, so just a month after Le Mans. Chrome window surrounds, so 0001/2?

There seems to be plenty of new information to digest and analyse - Thanks for the info on the ST's John :)

Just to add one more piece of confusion to the thread the Targa site http://www.targaflorio.info/index22.htm shows that Martini Racing had FIVE cars at the 1973 Targa -
two in sport 3000 class (group 5) and two originally entered in GT 2000+ (group 4) 107 and 108 and one T car (possibly mongrel).

However only THREE were in the race and ALL were classified in S3000 class (group 5) :confused:

Martini Racing entered cars (from Targa site)

PORSCHE CARRERA RSR 3000 (#8) - HERBERT MULLER / GIJS VAN LENNEP
PORSCHE CARRERA RSR 3000 (#9) - LEO KINNUNEN / CLAUDE HALDI
PORSCHE CARRERA RSR 3000 (#107) - GUNTHER STECKKONIG / GIULIO PUCCI

PORSCHE CARRERA RSR (#108) - GIULIO PUCCI / GUNTHER STECKKONIG

Porsche Carrera RS (T) Gijs van Lennep / Herbert Müller

(There is a pattern in the race numbers. The low numbers (up to 10) are the Sport 3000 class the over 100 numbers are GT class (100 to 119 are GT2000+ and 120 to 130 GT2000). Therefore #107 was an anomaly – entered in GT2000 (group 4) upgraded to S3000 (Group 5) for the race. )

Car 108 did not qualify and does not show any practice time, and car 107, although entered in GT2000+, and numbered as such, actually raced in S3000 according to the results here http://wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/wscc/ms1973.html#6
and other reports.


HOWEVER there may be double counting with the T car being recorded twice - once as the T car and once as a competitor to replace a crashed car - and there was possibly a "phantom" car that existed in the entry books only.

There is little doubt that the winner 588 was in S3000 class and was at other events. Lets assume R2 (020) was the other car entered in S3000 as car #9 as the factory now seems to confirm.

This would leave R8 (974) and another car originally entered as the "standard" RSR's - with numbers 107 and 108 entered in GT2000+.

However I would have thought that R8 (974) would have also been in S3000 as it was the latest prototype class car.

Lets assume for a minute that it was the original 107, a car that we have no photos of but it was there, and was the car Pucci crashed beyond repair, at least at the event, when it slid off the road and crashed in a village BEFORE the event (hence no photos). (ie before practice even started:eek: )

Lets also assume that it was not certain that it would be ready in time for the Targa and that is why they entered in GT2000+ with the option of "upgrading" to S3000 if it was there in time or running a standard RSR in GT2000+ if it was not.

Finally, lets assume that car 108 was a "cross entry" and did not actually even turn up but was there only to reserve the right to run 2 cars in GT class despite the fact that the factory (Martini Racing) had made a decision at the start of the season not to run in GT class so it would not be competing against its customers.

This does not explain the inconsistencies in car 107 mentioned although I feel it may be the same car on two different passes around the track, unless there were two practice / spare cars. If R8 was the original 107 it is almost certain that there would have been spares sent with it , probably including a bonnet maybe with the U shaped livery?.

One further mystery

can anyone identify this photo by Norbert Singer? It is supposed to be in his book of photographs (which I must find and get) and is captioned Van Lennep at the 73 Targa.
However I don't recognize the car.

It appears to have a chrome "racing" mirror. 107 has a standard RS mirror, as does car 9 and car 8 has no mirror at all at the Targa.

Is this the Mysterious R8? Or is it another car at another race? A couple of R cars had either chrome or black mirrors like that at different events, chrome ones include car 41at spa (R5?) and the #6 car at Nurburgring (R7?) and the 46 car at Le Mans (R7?). My best guess is that the caption is wrong and it is :confused: the 41 car at Spa the week before the Targa. That would fit with the white part of the decal and possibly with the fragments of numbers that can be seen.

That is a fantastic effort to get those pics off youtube :)
i tried but could not do it

I would not mind betting that the first set of pics was R8. It has the "newest" paint scheme and looks like it is a totally separate car to the race day car.
the next post I think is the race day car before it gets the original bonnet from R8- probably this is the T car which in a previous life was the press car and is 002 - the Strahle car.

I happen to live in a village next to where Gijs van Lennep lives.
Either i could ask him if he remembers where this picture was taken, or maybe someone at the upcoming rennsport reunion can show the picture and ask him?

He might also remember some other interesting details, as maybe what exactly happened to #107 (the one crashed by count Pucci).

Can't promise anything, but will try.....;)

Personally i think the photo of Gijs on page 14 shows indeed the upper part of #41 on the side. Also, the dark(er) coloured helmet is consistend with the picture of the 100km of Spa picture of post 32 (credit: chuck miller) of this interesting thread.
But then again, in the youtube clip, Gijs is also wearing the red helmet so I guess that doesn't mean a thing.
Very likely the editor of the magazine made a mistake indeed.

varunan123

I think that the standard of these models these days is fantastic - and minchamps is one of the best. However they are still mass produced "toys" and many different variants are made from the same mold

I think the 2.8 is an error - after all the RSR is a 2.8 -at least originally.
While the model makers have done a great job with the martini livery, especially on the scuttle, we cant expect to see perfect replicas for the price of these. They do a fair bit of research but that is only as good as the photos and info they can find and the budget they have to work to.

I think the subtleties of black v silver horn grills and 2.8 v 2.994 is way beyond what you would expect of a $40 model - but not of a $400 one.

So far as how car #9 ended up with a 72 shell in the race and whether it always had one is going to provide more posts here - unless of course someone can produce the production number of the museum car AND it explains it. I am heartened by the progress made so far and the constructive comments and contributions by so many knowledgeable posters.

To me it is what this board is all about:)

This is supposed to be a picture of R8 at Monza 1000km 25/4/1973 - the one race it entered before the Targa.

From what can be seen, it does seem to match the "initial" 107 car that varunan123 has been able to lift from the youtube video.

I am confident that it is the car that was the original 107 and that the bonnet of this car (plus the engine / drive train and who knows what else) was transferred to the T car - probably 002 the original RSR mule that ran under Strahle colours in July 1972 and then saw all sorts of service including as the Martini press car #3 - for the race.

The other pictures of 107 are most likely the car still in "press" or "PR" livery doing practice or qualifying laps before getting a transplant from R8.

As to why the race number is 107, signifying a group 4 car of 2.8 lites (another reason why the Model may show 2.8 rather than 3) , and why there was also a 108 entered (and whether it even was planned to show up) is a matter that perhaps only Norbert Singer or someone else associated with the management of the Martini team can explain.

It would make some sense that at the time of doing the entries to "cover all the bases" and enter in both group 4 and group 5. It depends on when the entries had to be in.

The accepted practice for the rest of the year seems to have been to run only 2 cars per team per class. But both 107 and 108 were cross entered against GUNTHER STECKKONIG and GIULIO PUCCI. Maybe that was only a holding matter or the whole situation was just very fluid.

After all CLAUDE HALDI only transferred to the #9 car AFTER qualifying the 908/3 he was entered in with BERNARD CHENEVIERE for Porsche Club Romand as car number 1. (28th fastest). It is recorded that he was concerned about the engine and it was not fast enough.

Maybe by the time of the race, as the Targa had such a high attrition rate, Martini Racing decided to enter the third car and utilise the entry already reserved for a group 4 car.

The other ,related, question is was there ever an intention to run car 108? and if so is John Starkey's handwritten note that he referred to that it should have been R1 but was crashed (By Pucci - he must have been busy) correct or just one other piece of misinformation surrounding this event?

Thee is no doubt that all Martini Racing entries ran in group 5 (sport 3000) in the race despite only 2 running the Mary Stuart tails and despite the car numbers indicating they were entered in a different class. They would not have qualified under group 4 (GT2000+) with the drivetrain they had (and maybe for other modifications).

Another take on this is that the Martini team may have been very wary about what class they would have been permitted to run in because a couple of weeks before they were apparently protested against by an Italian team at Monza for "homologation infringements" including the mounting points for the rear suspension (which were properly homologated and with which they had run at other earlier races). They then ran in prototype class and used the Mary Stuart spoilers because they found out that they could not win a protest against an Italian team in Italy even if they were right.

varunan123

I still think that on the most likely scenario there are 2 different cars:

002: started life as a 72 ST, The Strahle car of July 72 still numbered as an ST but essentially the frst prototype RSR 2.8, renumbered as 002, then the press car #3, then the targa practice car (in press livery?); the "second" 107 car at qualifying, then the 107 race car, then ???

020 R2: started out as a genuine 73 RS / RSR, (probably using a 72 shell but maybe even a recycled 72 car), Tour de Course, Paul Ricard RSR development including suspension, Le Mans Qualifying, car #9 at Targa, Le mans, factory museum

Somewhere in there one of these cars was probably the wind tunnel car in the RS book.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by varunan123

But both cars can't be at the factory museum-and they do mention that it was crashed by pucci and fixed in time for race-why would pucci be driving the number 9 car,if he had access to two 107 cars?I would think you would drive the car assigned to you for the practice so you can get a feel for the car.

---

Each of the entrants had to qualify. I am not sure if that was each driver, or each car. Given Pucci had wrecked the original car 107, (presumably the one he was originally allotted to) they would be keen to give him seat time while they reorganised.

Maybe the T car was already being used by someone else? Or maybe they first of all reallocated him to car #9? I suspect that they may not have finalized the driver pairings at that stage.

In practice time Haldi was qualifying the 908/3 and was not even on the Martini team.

Maybe Pucci was assigned to car #9 after 107 and crashed it but not beyond fixing, but then when Haldi became available he was slotted into #9 with Kinnunen and Pucci was relegated to the old car 002 resurrected as the second 107?

After all after damaging 2 of the R cars why would he get a better seat than the well regarded Haldi coming across from the 908?

If Milou gets in touch with him we might get to know first hand.

Hugh:

I think the wind tunnel test picture in the RS book shows the car to be the Strahle car because it was the only one I have ever seen that had the small mud flap attached to the rear well opening, and that clue alone provides good evidence for being #107, and the #3 press car also...or at least one version if there was more than one.

Gib

This is the most brilliantly, tenaciously, and passionately investigated threads I've ever read........... I'm truly in awe....:) :) :)

I think you guys deserve to take a couple of minutes to relax and picture yourself going 4 times this speed........as 'most' of the cars and drivers that you're researching in fact DID....:eek: ;) :)

http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ttanadrive.flv

Cheers, and you guys are FANTASTIC !!!!!!!!!!!

From experience:

In an International race, (and a National race), in Europe, you were only allowed to qualify the car that you were entered in. Even in practice, it would be very rare to have drivers swapping cars as they all wanted to get used to their cars for the race.

Also, I am quite sure messrs Van Lennep/Herbert Muller would have looked very unfavourably on some amateur driver, (in this case Pucci), driving THEIR very special Porsche factory prototype, let alone Singer sanctioning it!

No, I am sure 0974, R8, was crashed by one of the factory's drivers, (Kinnunen?) and Pucci crashed the Group 4 GT car. Hugh, the #107 car, without a "Mary Stuart" tail would have been raced in the up-to 3-litre GT Group 4 class by May 1973, such "special" pieces as it had on it being homologated into Group 4 AFTER Gregg/Haywood's victory at Daytona in February 1973, when they had had to run in the Group 5 class.

Karl Ludvigsen, in "Excellence was expected", says about the 1973 Targa Florio: "Three weeks before the race, (May 13th), a practice Hack was...lapping in the hands of the works Martini drivers. A WEEK BEFORE THE RACE ANOTHER PRACTICE CAR ARRIVED, together with the two Carreras for the Targa entry. (Four cars altogether)...Accompaned by Norbert Singer, two other engineers and seven mechanics. THE LATTER WERE KEPT OCCUPIED BY BARON PUCCI, WHO DAMAGED ONE OF THE RACE CARS AND DEMOLISHED THE NEW PRACTICE CAR. The final entry was composed of the two three-liter race RSRs PLUS THE OLD PRACTICE HACK, POWERED BY A 2.8 LITER SIX." (MY CAPS).

I'm inclined to think that the two Group 5 race cars were R6, 0588 and R8, 0974, which came on from Monza, after the 1000Km race held there on April 25th. The Practice hack was 0001/2, (R5 and R7 had raced at Spa on May 6th, so were not at the Targa, neither were R3 and R4, as they were the "American" cars). The newer practice car that arrived May 6th, with the two race cars, had to be either 0001/R1, (I now do not believe that 0019 was built), or 0002/0020. So 0974 was "demolished" whilst 0001/R1 was given the engine out of R8, 0974, received some riveted on flares on the rear fenders, (see Varunen's photos of the filled holes in the rear fenders of 0001 whilst it was being restored, and given race #9 and was then driven by Haldi/Kinnunen to take an excellent 3rd place. 0588 won and 0002/0020 was put back in shape by the mechanics and, with it, Steckkonig and Pucci finished in 6th place.

After this, 0002/0020 was used at Le Mans by Peter Gregg and Guy Chasseuil, went back to the factory and was used to experiment with ultra-wide wheels, with the rear fenders cut off. After this? Don't know, but probably pensioned off and later went to the museum.

John Starkey

"Time and Two Seats" (Janos Wimpfen)


Says: "The Targa Florio was the only time during the season that the Porsche factory team appeared with three of the light but strong Group 5 versions (of the RSR-Ed). Can # 8 had Carrera regulars Herbert Muller/Gijs van Lennep, #9 with former Porsche 917 star Le Kinnunen ...joined by Swiss privateer Claude Haldi, and the third car was handled by Gunter Steckkonig?giulio Pucci. This last car was supposed to be a GT entry but when Pucci damaged it in practice, the modified T-car (Practice car-Ed) was substituted and raced in the Sports category (class-Ed). ".

Also: A spot of lateral thinking: Porsche, in 1973, like all companies, watched the pennies! I'm now willing to believe that 0020 WAS built, but not, I think, 0019. Why? Well, put yourself in Porsche's place. By the end of 1972, they already had 0020, 0001 and 0002. The latter two had already been built in 1972 as S/Ts and required little modification to make them into early RSRs. Why bother to build 0019 for the Factory team, (when it could have been sold as a profit-making RS 2.7 instead of an RSR that would stay on the Company's books for a year with no financial return), when they already had enough cars, particularly with R5-R8 coming on-stream by April/May 1973?

John

Thanks for your insightful contribution.
I take it with your comments that

"with the two race cars, had to be either 0001/R1, (I now do not believe that 0019 was built), or 0002/0020. "

you are suggesting that there were only 2 cars out of this four number combination?

Could it be that the sparse entry in the RS build records for R1 and R2 actually reflect "work orders" for the rebuilding of Zasada's car and the Strahle car to full RS specs rather than the commissioning of new shells?

On your comments about the homologation of the special pieces (including chassis geometry) I agree that it was done earlier in the year BUT at Monza they were protested against (for the configuration of R6 and R8) by an Italian porsche team and forced to run in prototype class (I have the reference somewhere at home) despite that homologation and the fact that the cars had been running that spec legally at other races during the year.
Given the Targa was on Italian soil and they had lost a protest to Italian authorities a couple of weeks earlier I would have thought they may have had fears of being protested against in group 4 again.

finally, on Ludvigsen's comments what if the second practice car was R1 019?
By then it would have been an old car and being "demolished" by Pucci would explain its disappearance and maybe your "note" about 108 being destroyed?? also IF he is correct to say that "The final entry was composed of the two three-liter race RSRs PLUS THE OLD PRACTICE HACK, " how does that explain about the only thing we seem to agree on that R8, one of the cars from Monza, was destroyed??

So, John, you are now saying that 002 and 020 R2 are one and the same car, and that the Museum's recent response which stated that the Museum car finished 3rd (which would have been the #9 car) is incorrect, and that it really is #107 from the TF.

Gib Bosworth

And finally...or tonight!

Hugh says he can't imagine how 0001/0002 were re-numbered. I think I can:

0841 was marked in factory records as being scrapped on, I think, 25/8/72. This is almost certainly the date that the S/T was re-numbered as 0002 RS/RSR. As this date is AFTER 911 230 0769's rally accident in July, (after which the car was returned to the factory for repairs), I think 0769 must have been re-numbered to 911 360 0001 whilst it was under repair, probably during July/August 1972. As the racing department also had 0841, which was had been "updated" to becoming an RS/RSR, the factory, not unnaturally, decided to re-number this car then to 911 360 0002.

All the above is speculation. We really need to see factory records. I am sure they exist!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Starkey

And finally...or tonight!

Hugh says he can't imagine how 0001/0002 were re-numbered. I think I can:

0841 was marked in factory records as being scrapped on, I think, 25/8/72. This is almost certainly the date that the S/T was re-numbered as 0002 RS/RSR. As this date is AFTER 911 230 0769's rally accident in July, (after which the car was returned to the factory for repairs), I think 0769 must have been re-numbered to 911 360 0001 whilst it was under repair, probably during July/August 1972. As the racing department also had 0841, which was had been "updated" to becoming an RS/RSR, the factory, not unnaturally, decided to re-number this car then to 911 360 0002.

All the above is speculation. We really need to see factory records. I am sure they exist!

---

John

That is a very good point that I had not considered and makes perfect sense.

When I wrote that I had been thinking that the Strahle car was numbered when it was started to be built as a M491 project in about April 1972, hence the comment that I could not see how it was given a number after that of the Zasada car which could not have received its number before July.

Obviously from the "scrapped" record it would have continued to have the ST identity throughout that time and the July debut in Austria and it is then likely that your explanation is correct.

Chuck

Wow! that is a great video. I can see how easy it would be to "total" a race car on those roads. I dont think I would like to drive them at any significant speeds - Even if YOU were the driver:D :D

it really puts some of the feats of these guys into perspective

Gib, Hugh, Varunan et al:

Yes, I am suggesting that 911 360 0001 and 0002 were substitutes for 911 360 0019 and 0020.

I have just got off the phone after a long conversation with Josh Sadler, the head of Autofarm, in England, who owned 0001 back in 1989 and then restored it. He and his then partner, Steve Carr, did a lot of research into the history of 0001 and, by corollary, 0002. Josh said that Steve Carr and Stanley Palmer went to see 0001 in November, 1973 at the factory and were shown an engine and gearbox less car, "looking s if it had been well used" in a corner of one of the shops.

Josh then told me that he has a print out of the production/assembly sheets for the RS/RSR series.

This sheet has a column marked: "KOMM.NRV". Presumably commission number? The RS series of cars starts in the 310,000 range, (presumably how many 911s/Porsches that had been made to date?) Chassis numbers 911 360 0015-0018 have commission(?) numbers 310 002-005, but then chassis' 0019 and 0020 have commission numbers: 400 001 and 400 002. After this, the numbers for 0021 and all after revert to the 310 000 series.

Dare we think that these numbers refer to 0019 and 0020 REALLY being 0001 and 0002? It all helps to build the case!

Hugh:

Yes, you are right about the class that the RSRs at the Targa Florio ran in. According to Janos Wimpfen's wonderful "Time and two seats", (which has results that, with just a few caveats, I trust!), all three RSRs that finished ran in the Sports 3000 class. (Group 5). #108 is listed a "DNS" (Did not start), which appears to mean that it at least practiced, and was due to be driven by Pucci/Steckkonig. This is entered in the Grand Touring + 2000cc class (Group 4).
Also listed in the entries is a "T" car, (Practice only), RS (NOT RSR), for van Lennep/Muller, entered in Grand Touring + 2000cc. (Group 4).

Interestingly, Janos credits 0588 as the winner, 0020 as being 3rd and 0002 as being sixth! Obviously, if 0002 became 0020, something's wrong.

Don't know if its been mentioned yet but in the "Porsche Sport 1974/75" magazine, there is an article on the Factory Museum.

On page 47, there is a photograph showing the RSR with the number 8 and the arrow Martini hood!

So the "unrestored" RSR after Le Mans (BP Sonauto Colors) was painted back to Martini colours? It must have raced under that configuration but where? The factory information stops at Le Mans..

Or the car had a first restoration in 1974?

I will publish the photo when I get back home....

Interestingly the 917, already painted as the "Le Mans 1970 Austrian team winner", was also photographed at the museum in 1975 (Porsche Sport 1974/75 Magazine, photograph page 48).

Both cars (917 and RSR) have prominent oval "Ducolux Auto" stickers (which were not visible on the actual winning car at Le Mans).

Could it be that this company "Ducolux Auto" in 1974/75 paid for both cars to be restored and repainted in "winning" colors in exchange for some publicity at the Museum display?

"Ducolux" was a paint company in Germany....would make sense, and could provide a plausible explanation for the "misleading" paint schemes.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/909/ducoluxgs7.jpg

After all in 1974/1975 both cars were only a couple of years old, and not regarded as valuable, and historically important, as they are today.

Milou,

That's a very interesting observation! I just went and got my copy of that bok and looked it up. Just look at those rear fenders; it's 0002/0020. The real 0588 had been sold in 1973 in America.

The Peter Gregg/Guy Chasseuil RSR was at the factory, still yellow/Green but with cut away rear fenders to accomodate the huge rear wheels from a 917 in July, 1973. Interestingly, the car had center locks on all four wheels, something that customer cars were not fitted with in 1973. By that time, the Racing Team had 0001/0019, 0576, 0588, 0676 on charge, always assuming that 0974 had been demolished at the 1973 Targa Florio. Don't forget also that, at that time, the Sports/GT International racing season was over by July.

Milou or John

Stranger and stranger.....

Is there any way that you can scan and post that pic.

i would like to compare it with some others of different cars from around that time

I must say that I am still having trouble coming to grips with the concept that 002 and 020 may be the same car , which IF correct, would imply that the current museum car started life as an ST and was the Strahle car

thanks

John

I hear what you are saying about 002 and 020 possibly being the same car.
However it is recorded that 020 was one of the LEO-ZA cars at the Tour de Corse. Neither of those cars (to me) exhibited any features resembling 002, especially in the rear guards and also the trim around the lights.

Given that this event was just after both R1 and R2 were supposed to have been manufactured, and well before the Targa, and, indeed, before the Press launch for the Martini sponsorship of the factory team for 73 onwards, and at both times what appears to be chassis 002 is displayed with its distinctive rear guards, I am struggling to see how chassis R2 (020) could be the same as 002 AND also be one of the LEO-ZA cars.

I would be more willing to believe (though i don't have any proof) that the two LEO-ZA cars were R1 and R2 and R1 was never seen again as it was crashed and then did the test track to destruction thing, not some converted ST as other records show. To me NEITHER of the LEO cars resemble modified ST's like 002 is in the pictures we have and both look more like 1973 build RS's.

I have been trying (and failing) to summarize all of the information in this thread into a couple of scenarios so that all the claims are in one place and we can pick them apart. But all I have been able to do so far is confuse myself even more:eek: :confused: :o

I tend to agree with Hugh that 020 R2 and 002 were not the same car. There is too much documentation that shows them in different form and comments/pictures in publications that refute it. If we go back to earlier comments about Singer's E42 car, and the pictures of #9 and #107 at the TF, and the Leo cars...they look to be 2 different cars. The TF results showing both cars finishing, and the factory notes all are against them being the same car.

020 R2 and 019 R1 may have been built as 73 RSs (not RSRs originally) as Hugh suggests, but they were built as rally cars initially, and then 020 R2 got the tacked on flares for tests at the Paul Ricard track. We know 020 R2 was built on a 72 shell for whatever reason, or the possibility still exists that it was a 72 ST converted, just as 019 R1 may be a converted 72S or 73S as has been suggested here.

The Ducolux story is an interesting one, and is believable. The real mystery still remains as to what happened to #107(002). The 2 into 1 car theory would explain the mystery, but there is probably another factory story that has yet to be uncovered. Maybe the new articles by Calzia and Singer will explain it.

Gib Bosworth

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Starkey

This sheet has a column marked: "KOMM.NRV". Presumably commission number? The RS series of cars starts in the 310,000 range, (presumably how many 911s/Porsches that had been made to date?) Chassis numbers 911 360 0015-0018 have commission(?) numbers 310 002-005, but then chassis' 0019 and 0020 have commission numbers: 400 001 and 400 002. After this, the numbers for 0021 and all after revert to the 310 000 series.

Dare we think that these numbers refer to 0019 and 0020 REALLY being 0001 and 0002? It all helps to build the case!

---

John,

What are these #s? Are you saying these are the seven digit, lower dash production #s? If so shouldn't it:
"103 3100 range" and "911 360 0015-0018 have commission numbers 103 3102-05" and so forth.

Thanks and what a great thread guys even though I am somewhat lost on the different senerios of possibilities of these different race cars.:)

I know where the modern version of the 107 car is........................

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y25...trackday01.jpg

Hi Hugh, Gib, Varunan et al:

1: The commission numbers have nothing to do with the production numbers. I can only presume these commission numbers were assigned to the cars as they were ordered. Perhaps each car was then assigned its production number?

2: The LEO-ZA cars: Konradsheim recorded them in the RS Book as: "330 0789", Not built as a normal 911S until 1973, and which I think is really "230 0769" and "360 0020" which would seem to say that this car was built, or is it another typo for "360 0002?"

3: Mark Donohue, in his book "The unfair advantage" is extremely specific about testing the first RSR at Paul Ricard in November 1972 and how much he liked the ABS brake system. We know that this system was fitted to 0002, hence my belief that it was this car the factory team were testing.

4: In Norbert Singer's book, "24:16", there is a color photo of him standing at the back of a red RS 2.7 Carrera, with a ducktail and wider than standard rear wheel arches and twin exhaust pipes. The licence plate is S AK 1337. The caption says: "The Rallye Corsica was the last such event for the 911 Carrera, this car being taken to the Paul Ricard track to be transformed for circuit racing." Another photo, somewhat obscured, seems to show the front of the car and it has a white hood with spotlights attached.

5: I don't have access to a scanner at the moment and am off to Silverstone tomorrow to race, guess what? an RSR! If it hasn't been done, I'll get the 1974 Museum photoscanned next week.

6: Finally(!) Until we have more information from the factory, we are stuck!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Starkey

Hi Hugh, Gib, Varunan et al:

1: The commission numbers have nothing to do with the production numbers. I can only presume these commission numbers were assigned to the cars as they were ordered. Perhaps each car was then assigned its production number?

---

John,

Thanks for the follow up. I was curious about this so I pulled out the copy of the Production/Conversion order that Konradsheim sent me for my RS (451). The Komm. Nr. for my RS is SZ 031331, I assume for Switzerland where this car was delivered. It is typed on both the Production and Conversion forms. Certainly off-topic for this thread though.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1189044061.jpg

A couple of more fotos to add to the mix:

John:

The ABS brake system was installed on the Strahle car, as you suggest, and Donahue's comments certainly are an interesting piece of data to ponder. Is it possible that the factory installed another system or maybe the Strahle ABS system (after it had been removed) for further testing at Paul Ricard? I have not read anywhere that the ABS system was used on any of the RSRs in 73 or later, so Singer must not have agreed with Donahue or maybe there were problems getting the system homologated.

I am very hopefull that we can indeed get more info from factory sources to clear up the picture on these early prototypes. Only the dedicated nuts who closely follow this thread probably really care, and most on this Board would say..."what difference does it make what happened 35 years ago with these cars?"...but there are a few of us who will sleep easier when we get the real story sorted out.

Gib Bosworth

Mike:

RE: New #107

Nice car...must have been built by someone who follows this thread.

Gib

Does anyone know for certain when the wind tunnel tests on the Mary Stuart tailed car actually occurred? They were supposed to occur after the targa in may.

The RS book, page 94, states they were done "on the winning car" from the Targa implying just after the targa ie May 1973 and there is a heading stating they occurred in June 1973.

There is no doubt that the original practical tests on the tail were done at Paul Ricard in late 1972.

Also I have a picture of R6 at Monza`running in sports class with a Mary Stuart tail (pic 3) where it was found that despite the added drag the higher corner speeds allowed improved lap times. This had also been the experience at Paul Ricard.

The reason is that I think, on the basis of pictorial evidence, the car used was 107 renumbered, perhaps for sponsorship reasons, as # 3 (maybe its original number as the press car prior to the targa).

The wind tunnel photo shows a distinctive decal directly above the front wheel, that was present on 107 at the targa but not on #8 or #9.

Gib and others have also pointed out other features of this wind tunnel car that resemble the press car and the "strahle" car.

I am wondering, IF it is #107 (RS 002) in the museum after all, and after carrying out the wind tunnel tests in June it was pensioned off to be displayed. In that case it would be a 72 car an perhaps as important in its own right as the Targa winner.

it would be ironic if the only car that did NOT run a mary stuart tail at the Targa was the one that was used to do the wind tunnel tests.

If car 020 really was at Le Mans I cant see that it would have been able to do the tests and there is no suggestion that the actual winning car R6 was the car involved - besides it was at le mans in June.

It would be very interesting to see the production number on the dash........................:eek: :D :D

Hugh;

Good catch of the unique decal above the left front wheel of 107 and the wind tunnel tests, which is just one more piece of evidence that confirms which car this is. Interesting that the right side front fender of 107 does not have that decal as seen in the race photo at the turn.

It doesn't seem to make sense that the factory would not have the correct VIN for the museum car, especially since it was put there sometime in 74 or 75. Another detail to consider....looking closely at the stripes between the top of the hood and windscreen on the museum car and earlier shots of 107 show that the wipers are placed differently within the stripes. This would suggest that the museum car is not 107, or the stripes were redone in that area when the car was restored...which is possible.

We know the oil door was removed on the museum car at some point, and it could have been when the car was redone to fit FIA rules for LeMans as the Sonauto car. RSR 1033 was built in April 73, and was sent to France according to the RS book data, so it is possible that it could have raced at LeMans under the Sonauto colors, but this seems to go against factory records.

Another piece of data that keeps haunting me is the Wagenpass document showing the press car #3 as 020 R2, and looking at the Martini oval, it appears to be the same placement as the earlier picture for the press car, which is clearly the #107 car. The #9 car has a different Martini oval placement in the TF photo, which would suggest it isn't 020 R2. As I noted earlier, it's possible the Wagenpass document has the wrong VIN, but I think that is not likely as this would be checked by some official somewhere at a border crossing.

Does this mystery seem to be evolving into an Oliver Stone movie?

Gib

Varunan123
You are back to 002 and 020 R2 being the same car, and that may be the answer as John Starkey suggests, although I don't think the factory would have restamped 002 to 020...no real need it would seem. I think the explanation would be, as has been said before, that there was confusion in documentation over "RS 2 being 002 rather than 020 R2".

If we follow this line of reasoning, the Strahle car then gets modified with ST rear flares to be the Larrousse car at the Tour de Corse, which later goes to Paul Ricard for track testing after being modified "back" to RSR form and using those ABS brakes that could have still have been on the car from the Strahle days. It would then become the press car #3, and then go to the Targa to race as #107.

One problem with this scenario is that those rear flares and mud flap on the rear flare from the Strahle and press car days remain in pictures all the way through the Targa, so that makes the Tour de Corse scenario with this car unlikely, but not impossible I guess.

We would still need to come up with another 72 chassis that ended up as #9 at the TF, and maybe that would have been 001 (or 019 R1) whichever it really was and maybe that was E42.

Oliver Stone would love this story.

Gib

Gib said

"Good catch of the unique decal above the left front wheel of 107 and the wind tunnel tests, which is just one more piece of evidence that confirms which car this is. Interesting that the right side front fender of 107 does not have that decal as seen in the race photo at the turn."

Yes......... I cant see any photo that does have a sign that this decal is there on the RHS.

However the good B&W photo at the Targa that you posted of 107 does show a part of the distinctive two tone "Martini Racing" decal above the REAR wheel and that is also on the wind tunnel car AND can just be made out on the colour pic at the turn that was posted on post #246.

Indeed on a close look at that COLOUR photo of the RHS of 107 at the targa, the Martini racing is two tone with the "racing" part in a lightish blue and very hard to see against the silver. (the other cars have shell and Dunlop there or some have Bosch)

From the pics at the wind tunnel it is easier to see the "racing" on the LHS but even then it is clear that in black and white the colour blends with the silver of the car.

I wonder if there is a colour photo of the press pic? I looked at the "original" I have in a book (with the snow on the side of the track) and cant see the "Racing". HOWEVER the spacing of the decal for Martini is exactly where it should be for the whole decal to be there.

So I am postulating that not only the strange decal on the front ties 107 with the wind tunnel pics BUT the "martini racing" seen in the colour pic in a similar position to the #9 car, ties the car pictorially to both the wind tunnel car AND the press car!

However the decal on the front LHS was not present on the press car at the press conference so must have been added later.
Does anyone know what it is?

sorry

bad expression on my part - I am too tired to be doing this tonight. I meant that the photo of the car was at the bend next to the buildings in the same spot as the car #9 photo as opposed to the other photos of car 107.

and speaking of other photos I have JUST now found a brand new one to me of 107 and a bunch of car 8 ones - its a pity they are of car 8 instead of 9 or 107
enjoy