What does this number mean?
1064556
It’s written with chalk under the dash pad over the speedo. It’s not the production number that usually is written behind the kneepad?
John
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What does this number mean?
1064556
It’s written with chalk under the dash pad over the speedo. It’s not the production number that usually is written behind the kneepad?
John
John
it is the correct number of digits and format to be a production number - (at least after the stopped using the chassis number as a production number in about 1969(?)) They were written with crayon on top of the dash as well as being stamped into the dash under kneepad
However, if it is, it belongs to a 1976 coupe on my understanding of production numbers - 1 for 911, 0 for coupe 6 for the year and 4556 for the 4556th coupe of any sort made in 1976 model year
the best crosscheck would be to see what is under the kneepad and see if it matches
It should be the exact same production number stamped under the kneepad below the radio.
...not always !Quote:
It should be the exact same production number stamped under the kneepad below the radio
On a '69 911E I had the two numbers were different:
The dash crayon number is 1092826:
http://home.clara.net/andyjboy/Productionnocrayon.jpg
& the stamped production number is 1092823:
http://home.clara.net/andyjboy/Productionnostamping.jpg
on my '72 the numbers are the same. I seem to recall in another thread that it may have varied in earlier years? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by J-P
Maybe it's a '72 thing, then. On my 72S both number match.Quote:
Originally Posted by 911scfanatic
From memory the crayon number on the dash is the same as the VIN for swb models, whereas for the lwb '69-'73 models the crayon number should match the production number (stamped into the sheet metal below the radio opening) but this number is not the same as the VIN.
My point was that the Factory did make mistakes...
you will likely discover the meaning of life or the fountain of youth before you will get that mystery solved :D
..just guessing...:Quote:
Originally Posted by boxster03
"Keep in mind the cars were not produced in a numbered or sequencial order. When a car needed a special part it was moved off line until the part was attached, or rolled back into line after a change out of an engine or transmission. "
(Quote taken from bobs67S post about the 64/65 production)
...yes..........but the production number is supposed to be "the number" that is allocated to each car before it is made and then carried on right through production regardless of whether it has changes to it, regardless of the options, engine specs etc - ie all coupes in made a particular year should have consecutive production numbers (regardless of specification or when they were actually completed) based on when the order was first processed at the start of the production process. In my view it is extremely unusual (but obviously not impossible) for one car to have two different, and very close, production numbers written or stamped on it - it does not mean that both are correct however.Quote:
Originally Posted by 911T1971
It could be a "friday afternoon" car where a simple transcription mistake was made in either the stamped number or the crayon number.
I guess it is also possible to have 2 production numbers allocated to one shell, say if the car had been remanufactured, but they would be a long way apart
However I am aware of a car that started out in life as an "S", was used for various special duties by the factory and then, in a later year was converted/remanufactured by the factory to a genuine RSR. Its chassis number and production number however are of its original identity as an "S", regardless of the fact that it went through a complete new production process and was subsequently delivered as an RSR (with all the goodies but without the RSR identifiers in the chassis number). Porsche records however show both identities, as an S and an RSR against that number. The only hint is the identity tag has been stamped with various different numbers and letters that should not appear on the one tag - ie a chassis number from one year (unusually stamped in two different postions) and type and date code numbers from another year and specification of car.
A broader question is what was the specific purpose of the crayon number if the production number was already stamped on the car? Was it just easier to see for those needing to reference it on the line? Was there some sort of printed manifest they would repeatedly match it up with to tell what options to put on a particular car, and the crayon number was easier to reference? Did one worker read the number to another who scribed it? Or did one person read and remember the stamped number from in the car and go outside to scribe? Maybe he got distracted on occasion and goofed up? Do the mismatched number cars also have mismatched Kardex options as a result? It seems most of the numbers I've seen are in the same handwriting, obviously it was a set process repeated over a long period of time.
Hmmm - is there a German version of Crayola that was used?
The secret # mystery deepens!
I understand the need for a production number different from a VIN. The wax (not chalk) production number would not be visible once the windshield was fitted, since the instrument panel top pad would have to be in place first. The paper could have been somewhere else before being moved to the windshield.
Just wondering the purpose for the extra step of writing the wax numbers on every car when the number could could be referenced elsewhere (stamped on IP, printed manifest...).
Not one of the three different 911Rs I have had was stamped with a body number as the bodies were hand assembled by Baur.
I do not have info on two of them but the last one I had had the last three digits of the vin written with a wax pencil/crayon under the dash and on the rear bulkhead above the engine of all places.
I thought only the production 911Rs would not have the body or construction number stamped in the normal place but I recently purchased a real odd-ball early 911 race car that apparantly did not have a body number or construction number till well after it was first built.
The car was originally assembled in April of 71 as a "pilot-line" car and test bed for the upcomming 1972 models. The car had hand written test notes but apparently not a normal KARDEX as used on regular production cars. The car was fitted with a full FIA Group 3 sport kit and an 2.3-liter MFI race engine and then raced at Le Mans in June of 1973.
The VIN number of the car is 911 230 0056 which would make the car a very early 72 S. Today the car still has this number stamped near the fuel tank and on the original chassis plate near the front bonnet latch. Both appear totally normal and are as per stock 1972 Porsche construction. It also has what appears to be a normal body or construction number near the radio plate.
The car however was recorded as "scrapped" after inspections and further testing after Le Mans but was actually recycled and sold as a race car to an executive of Volkswagen Canada.
I asked a friend to assist with getting me the Kardex and learned much of the above in just a single phone call. I also learned that the car has a 2nd Kardex something I was not aware ever happened with any Porsche.
The point of all of this is that while nearly all Porsche's on the production line might have had a standardized plan of assembly and sequence, things happened and not every car built is going to make sense to us 35+ years later.
Some of the most valuable cars I deal with are called 8c 2300 Monzas. They are pre-war Alfas. The most valuable of these are the onese assembled by Enzo Ferrari for racing clients.
He did not go to Alfa Romeo and purchase new cars then chop them up and turn them into race cars for his clients. What he did was purchased crashed road cars and chopped these up added or subrtracted bits and pieces and fitted light racing bodies to them.
Several of these cars have original records from the Italian Automobile Club that have entries on the origin section that state litterally "assembled from various scrapped components."
I have not had one of these cars for some time but the last time I did they were trading for more than $5M!
I have had many 917s go through my hands over the years and most of them had as there last entry on the hand written Porsche production notes the word scrapped!
Let me assure you, Porsche as did Enzo Ferrari never threw anything away that could be sold to someone.
I am sure that more than a few early 911s in each production year as well as the last few built are going to have some "oddities" about their construction. Also Porsche was constantly updating and improving both the cars and construction methods on a regular basis so I would assume that there could easily be some "oddities" now and then that might not look quite right to most Porsche experts.
Just my thoughts... Hope I did not upset anyone.
Cheers,
Bill Noon
Not one of the three different 911Rs I have had was stamped with a body number as the bodies were hand assembled by Baur.
I do not have info on two of them but the last one I had had the last three digits of the vin written with a wax pencil/crayon under the dash and on the rear bulkhead above the engine of all places.
I thought only the production 911Rs would not have the body or construction number stamped in the normal place but I recently purchased a real odd-ball early 911 race car that apparantly did not have a body number or construction number till well after it was first built.
The car was originally assembled in April of 71 as a "pilot-line" car and test bed for the upcomming 1972 models. The car had hand written test notes but apparently not a normal KARDEX as used on regular production cars. The car was fitted with a full FIA Group 3 sport kit and an 2.3-liter MFI race engine and then raced at Le Mans in June of 1973.
The VIN number of the car is 911 230 0056 which would make the car a very early 72 S. Today the car still has this number stamped near the fuel tank and on the original chassis plate near the front bonnet latch. Both appear totally normal and are as per stock 1972 Porsche construction. It also has what appears to be a normal body or construction number near the radio plate.
The car however was recorded as "scrapped" after inspections and further testing after Le Mans but was actually recycled and sold as a race car to an executive of Volkswagen Canada.
I asked a friend to assist with getting me the Kardex and learned much of the above in just a single phone call. I also learned that the car has a 2nd Kardex something I was not aware ever happened with any Porsche.
The point of all of this is that while nearly all Porsche's on the production line might have had a standardized plan of assembly and sequence, things happened and not every car built is going to make sense to us 35+ years later.
Some of the most valuable cars I deal with are called 8c 2300 Monzas. They are pre-war Alfas. The most valuable of these are the onese assembled by Enzo Ferrari for racing clients.
He did not go to Alfa Romeo and purchase new cars then chop them up and turn them into race cars for his clients. What he did was purchased crashed road cars and chopped these up added or subrtracted bits and pieces and fitted light racing bodies to them.
Several of these cars have original records from the Italian Automobile Club that have entries on the origin section that state litterally "assembled from various scrapped components."
I have not had one of these cars for some time but the last time I did they were trading for more than $5M!
I have had many 917s go through my hands over the years and most of them had as there last entry on the hand written Porsche production notes the word scrapped!
Let me assure you, Porsche as did Enzo Ferrari never threw anything away that could be sold to someone.
I am sure that more than a few early 911s in each production year as well as the last few built are going to have some "oddities" about their construction. Also Porsche was constantly updating and improving both the cars and construction methods on a regular basis so I would assume that there could easily be some "oddities" now and then that might not look quite right to most Porsche experts.
Just my thoughts... Hope I did not upset anyone.
Cheers,
Bill Noon
Interesting discussion . . .
Starts off w/ a question as to why the 'chalk number' doesn't match the 'production' aka 'secret' number . . .
. . . then morphs into a bit about Porsche re-cycling cars --- which has come up before . . . especially w/ racers/early-production cars
Anyway --- regarding the original question . . . about the 'chalk number' . . .
Was this a Karmann-built car? . . . 'cause Karmann added their own numbers to the bodies that they built . . .
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...oll%2C+numbers
have seen several cars with this missmatch...also on early cars ....i think they just did it by misstake ..i assume the stamping guy just forgot his glasses at home on this days.Quote:
Originally Posted by andyjboy
+1 on a transcription error for the 69E.
Dieter didn't have quite enough time to write the rest of the message: "For a good time, call Heidi."Quote:
Originally Posted by Zithlord
It was the free Porsche beer lunches and the cars that were produced after lunch
I have seen one of these cars...in a private collection on a medieval looking Tuscan estate. He had it sitting next to a new 8C!
Some of the most valuable cars I deal with are called 8c 2300 Monzas. They are pre-war Alfas. The most valuable of these are the onese assembled by Enzo Ferrari for racing clients.