1969 Competition 911

Having built up my 69T for the last 5 years or so, I have found it difficult to find reference to competition cars from that year. The only significant car I can find is the Monte Carlo winning 911.

Were most of the competition cars from that year still 911R's and TR's, or did Porsche build any LWB 2.0L cars to run in that year?? I think the class winning cars from Lemans, Daytona, Sebring etc, were all SWB.
It is difficult to find any reference. It seems to be an odd year; its after the above mentioned models, and before the various ST's that came along in 1970
Basically, im trying to find the details of the 69'MY cars that raced or rallied in that year. All I know is that Porsche homologated the S' for competition. Meaning the T' must have been the TR from the previous year.
Any help and pics would be much appreciated.
Many thanks,

Hi Matt, check out this link...

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo.html

Loads of images. Biggest database I have found to date, except Curt's thread... Start off at the 1969 24hr of Daytona, the 911 photos will keep you busy :)

ps. My Dad shot all the photos for the 1959 Santa Barbara - Class Modified 2000. http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...31a-photo.html

a buyer could order any race component on S BACK IN 69,SEE THE FOR SPORT PURPOSES BOOKLET

I would love to see Lightweight orders from 69-70 in detail. Like trunk compartment, engine bay, spare tire, batteries, etc....

If anyone has further info please post it :D

Interesting that the engine lid is drilled for the standard PORSCHE letters. I'll bet the deco trim holes in the bumpers are under that tape as well. I was having a discussion about this the other day - i.e. is it more correct to fill these holes in or leave them and tape/decal over them as the factory did? :cool:

enjoying this...subscribed

Any idea if that '69 is running 7R rears? My eyes can't tell...

Trunk and Engine Bay!!! :p

Black, Body coloured, no undercoating?


which way... body colour is not correct (I don´t know) regular 911s did not have body coloured engine bays until late 70, what happened to the racing and lightweight versions(69-70)????

Great pics Raj.

In that shot of the three white cars, I cant make out the wheels on the far left car. They dont look like fuchs..maybe steelies.

Frank, Have you come across any werks 69' cars??
Maybe the factory was concentrating and developing the ST'

Keep the pics and info coming :)

Kenik,
I cant tell if they are 7R's either, could be in rally trim, although they do look like race tires.

Its interesting to see the rear over-rider delete, bonnet catches, no trim....but, no sports muffler or roll bar, etc

The lightweights in the photos were the 1969 homologation 911S also known unofficially as the ST. The earliest cars were narrow bodies. These lightweight tubs were produced in 69 and used through ST production. They were the next evolution after the lightweight L and TR models.

Don

Thanks Don, I found a few pics of the 69' Monte winner that Waldegaard drove. Im sure some have been shown in Curt's amazing collection.

Thought the images needed to be adjusted:

Matt,
I believe you will have to be lucky to find pics of any real '69 l/w 911s that raced in the GT2000 class in that year.
There was a thread touching on this topic about a year ago.
On the surface '69 was a bit of a black hole for researchers such as ourselves as I believe there was no proper series as such of l/w 911Ss made specifically for sale to compete in the FIA GT 2000 classes.
Reading between the lines,I can only guess that if a racer went to Porsche,cheque book in hand,they would build him a race 911S,or T or R to his specs for his intended race series.
I would think that the Race department would have been up to their necks building 908s,917s and 908/3s to have time for more GT 911s.
Boschen /Barth give no production race chassis numbers for '69 which leads me to think that similar to '68,random shells were just pulled from the production line and taken to the Race department for re working.
I think we are probably talking less than 10 cars for that year,with most privateers such as the Kremers opting to modify and race their '68 models.
Look for the vent windows on the 911s on the Sports/Racing site for '69.
The pics Raj has posted of the l/w cars are generally accepted as 2.2/2.3 STs of '70 despite the door handles.Porsche have been known to re cycle cars/pics for publicity purposes before ! :D
The black/white pic is of a red French car and the white car(of three) - both may have been re cycled into general production after the pics were taken.
As a matter of interest,the white l/w is from a brochure dated 9/69 and is a prelude to the l/w RS as the weight given is 930 kg.
I wonder if any made it to the road in that format ? :confused:
Can't provide any answers but it is sure interesting to speculate !

Cheers,
Dennis. :)

Whats not mentioned in this letter from Porsche about this 69S is the car also had a bare interior, skid plates, 100l tank, ivory color and a porsche decal on the back lid... Porsche has been no help with any modern day info.

Robert.

Robert, thats a great letter!
Im wondering if the rods were titanium, seeing as they didnt have the ones of the correct weight? I like the way the factory says...."the engine is tuned".
Do you have any racing history of the car?

Hi Matt..
Its raced at Spanish curcuits and went back to Germany in 71'.
But more importantly,, the letter proves Porsche was building 911 competion cars regardless the lack of general info. The 68' Sports Purpose wish list was carried forward and applied to 69' as well.

Regards, Robert.

Don't forget Trans Am in the US. The 911s raced as "sedans" from 1967-1969. Many of the cars were originally stock cars, but some were special ordered from the factory. Also, at least 1 911R raced in a Trans Am race. The ruling allowing them to race as sedans was changed in 1969 for the 1970 year, which turned the mantle of dominance back to Alfa (up until the 2.5 Challenge).

If you can find pictures, you will see a lot of 911s running American Racing Wheels...

A few factory competition models from 1969:

#31 looks like the torsion bar access hole is LWB - are you saying they modified the 68's to LWB spec?

That last foto is the 69 Acropolis rallye. Pauli Toivenen won it in a "911S". Maybe converted, by why would they go thru the trouble of that?

I'll continue searching for circuit racers .... :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by varunan123

here we go

1969 24 hr Le Mans entry list

number 73-Porsche 911- by porsche factory-GT 2 .0-not accepted

number 74-Porsche 911-by porsche factory-GT 2.0-not accepted

now if we can only find a picture of these two cars.

raj

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I wonder why they were not accepted?

I suppose that maybe they had not yet homologated the LWB cars and had to modify the 68's. I think I may have fotos of those cars .... somewhere. :rolleyes:

Just a guess, Maybe they were Rs and since not a regular production car they were not allowed to run?

Don

The 69' Monte cars are LWB 1969 cars. Waldegard did win the Swedish Rally in 69' in a 911L (SWB) The other rally winners from that year are; Acropilis Rally - Toivonen 911S(LWB)
Polish Rally - Zasada 911S(LWB sister car to Monte Winner)
Tour de France - Larrousse 911R
Tour de Corse - Larrousse 911R

Im pretty sure the 69 Lemans cars were all SWB (TR's etc).

Other than the 69' Monte winner I found another LWB factory race winner.....Porsche entered 3, lightened, fuel injected 911E's with Boge Self-levelling suspension for the Marathon de la Route. I have this info from a book, the year isnt stated, it would have to be 69' (the first year of the E), unless the factory wanted to test the suspension and injection in 68', like they did with the Sporto R, earlier? Anyway, they finished 1,2. Where are these cars now?

Very interesting.....

More info;
Car 31 (S-L 2264) is being rallied in the 69' Monte. I have a feeling it is the Larrousse car that came second to Waldegaard (car 37, S-L 2263). Toivonen ran car S-L 2266.

Its interesting to note that the Polish winning car of Zasada was also reg - S-L 2264, now car 100.

The 69' Acropilis winning car of Toivonen was S-M 2929, car no 1.

Now Im going to have to search through all of Curt's pics to find more of these cars :).

here a some of my Le Mans pics from 1969.
the first is car 63 from the le mans Test
63 Jean Mesange / F Marcel Martin Porsche 911T
the rest are from the race

and the rest of them............................

there were also quite a number of 911's at the 1969 Targa, some called T's at least one "S" and "R" etc
this one is interesting as it is on "ZOLL" ( export) plates meaning it is probably brand new at the time.
it is shown as a Porsche 911T in the GT2.0 class BUT was disqualified for "Illegal valve" the entrants were Ennio Bonomelli / Cesare Guzzi. Bonomelli was a serious Italian Porsche racer at the time (up to and past 73 and 74 RSR's) and i believe was known to modify the cars a bit - HE may have put bigger valves in it OR it may have ben a new 69 not yet thru homologation???

any ideas?

I have a number of other photos of the 911's at the targa in 1969 but none of them are good enough, or from the right angle to see if they were SWB or not

I'm probably totally not up to speed on this but I noticed pretty much all the LeMans cars had no outside driver's mirror. What was the thinking behind that one? Aerodynamics??? Doesn't seem like a very intelligent thing to be doing in a race of that calibre and I'm surprised that wasn't a safety requirement of the times. :D

What book are these photos from?

Must... subscribe...

Does anyone have a photo of a car very similar to this from previous races ('68,'67,...)? I assume the same team, but lacking the blue/white/red stripe up the shoulder. I agree the lights on the visor are a interesting detail. I have a miniature of the car but have never seen a good photo from the race; Porsches at Le Mans has a fuzzy one...

Thanks

brad

you may be thinking about the 1968 car #43 that, I think, Vitesse made a model of......see attached

Brad,

Hugh got to'ya first (late there/early here ...;) )

Here's another of the Gaban/Vanderschrick car. '68 LeMans 2000 class winner, and 12th overall.

Reference again from 'PORSCHE 911 in Racing'... probaby the best book on my shelf.

Cheers

The car behind Gaban's in Hugh's pic is interesting - a Fiat Dino.
I wasn't even aware they were homologated let alone someone had the courage to race one :D
They were to be a 911 competitor in the mid / late '60s and a nice looking one in the 2.4 coupe guise.
However it was the usual Ferrari case of too many projects on the boil at once and fizzled out - a similar fate to the Alfa Montreal of several years later.
The 911 is still with us though !! :D

Cheers,
Dennis. :)

I thought he same thing when i saw the two photos together.
I would be surprised if it was two different cars - the big question is whether it is a 1968T with sports kit 9553 (from post #6 above) - in 1968 is is entered as a T but in 1969 it is entered as an S. - the sports kit for the 1968 includes "engine type 2000S 901/02 160BHP.
it was entered in group 3 in both years (GT) and was first in class in both years.

Raj

I think the license plate is from Belgium, and I think I have seen somewhere that the Belgium plates can be transferred from car to car - ie issued to owner not the car

Jean-Pierre Gaban seems to have been a "factory favorite" a bit like Sonauto in France as he seems to have had lots of good cars (always seemed to be up the pointy end of his class) from the mid 60's and was still preparing RSCS's etc in the mid 1980's

maybe someone from Europe can chime in with some more facts?

Thanks guys, those images are exactly what I was hoping for. I have the same Vitesse miniature that Hugh showed, #43 from 1968.

I was always curious about the sunscreen on the windshield and why it stops short, it almost looks like an error on the miniature, but it makes perfect sense with the visor lights. I liked the look enough (error or not) that I did the same thing on my car, and it is actually quite practical for TSD rallies, allowing the co-driver a more complete view to see street signs and the like.

I'll need to find Porsche 911 in Racing, don't have that one. Thanks again for the responses!

Quote:

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Porsche entered 3, lightened, fuel injected 911E's with Boge Self-levelling suspension for the Marathon de la Route. I have this info from a book, the year isnt stated, it would have to be 69' (the first year of the E), unless the factory wanted to test the suspension and injection in 68', like they did with the Sporto R, earlier? Anyway, they finished 1,2. Where are these cars now?

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Resurrecting this old thread because I just came across a bit of info regarding the 1968 Marathon de la Route cars. I have no way to verify this, but one of our members has stated that car #28, the winning car, was actually a very early 1969 911S ( chassis # 119300009 ). If this is true (?) that would mean that the book referencing 3 lightened 911E entries would at least be partially wrong... perhaps all three were 911S's, not E's?

Here are some photos of S-H 7865 (sup 119300009) at the '68 MdlR and recently in Monterey:

Attachment 264566

Attachment 264567

Attachment 264568

Attachment 264569

(Thanks to John G. for these great photos!!)

Here is a shot taken during the 1968 event (sister cars #28 and #30):

Attachment 264573

I don't have any reason to think they are, but since they are such early LWB chassis, is it possible that these cars (#28 and #30) were among the initial batch of 1969 LWB lightweight cars built for competition purposes by the factory? Does anyone know any other chassis numbers for verified lightweight 1969 LWB cars that we could use for comparison?

To clarify:

Quote:

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The lightweights in the photos were the 1969 homologation 911S also known unofficially as the ST. The earliest cars were narrow bodies. These lightweight tubs were produced in 69 and used through ST production.

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It's been suggested by Don that there was a run of very early LWB chassis in '69 that were specifically built for use as "lightweight" race cars, and that they were used from the beginning of '69 well into the '71 season; both by the factory Werks team and/or by customer teams. This would mean at least some or possibly all of the Werks ST cars had these essentially '69 tubs.... with modifications and improvements as time went on of course, but still they started life as an early '69 lightweight chassis. So my question still stands; were the 1968 Maraton de la Route cars actually LWB 1969 "lightweight" tubs? Would the factory records show this?

119300009 is an S model.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bxd

To clarify:

So my question still stands; were the 1968 Maraton de la Route cars actually LWB 1969 "lightweight" tubs? Would the factory records show this?

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Yes they were. The fact that the winner still exists and is a unquestionably a LWB 69 leaves no room for debate. FWIW, the factory documents associated with this car and its two sister cars refer to them as 911 GTS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cornpanzer

Yes they were. The fact that the winner still exists and is a unquestionably a LWB 69 leaves no room for debate. FWIW, the factory documents associated with this car and its two sister cars refer to them as 911 GTS

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Dave
would this perhaps signify that they were intended as "group 4" (special GT) cars, ie the GTS referred to the racing class although in a "rally" I dont think needed to be homologated, and indeed the LWB S's were not homologated under Form 608 until late in 1968 / early 1969, even in GT class.

it does sound like a magazine article is needed.....................................:)

Also, they were indeed thin-metal bodies according to the factory docs.

Hugh, I think that a story is being prepared, but not by me. Should be a great story though because it is a mighty cool car! =)

Quote:

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Also, they were indeed thin-metal bodies according to the factory docs.

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Wow, that's fantastic!! The next obvious question being, exactly which factory docs are we talking about; kardex? build sheet? hand-written notes stuffed in a manilla folder? Also, more specifically, in those documents was there a designation or code for the thin-walled shell? if so, what was it?

It's really great that we have brought to light some details about these three '69 cars that weren't readily apparent:

They are very early 1969 911S's, not E's, not SWB cars
They were designated Werks race cars
They are verified "lightweight" chassis cars
They have aluminum bumpers, bonnets, doors and front wings
They have 911R bonnet hinges, plexiglas side and rear windows
They were referred to by the factory as model '911GTS' or simply 'GTS'

I feel like these cars are part of a lost squadron or something... 1969 is such a pinnacle year for 911 design and development, and at the same time such a black hole for details on actual '69 MY race cars, and it feels good to shed a little light on the subject.

They have aluminum bumpers, bonnets, doors and front wings

Are you sure also front wing?

how can you prove it?

I have just found a reference in the original Ludvigsen book (page 613). It seems that Porsche were the ones who were "misleading" with what the cars were.
Ludvigsen says that they entered 3 coupes which were
"basically 911S models with the new fuel injection, and to demonstrate two features at once they were equipped with the new Boge self- adjusting front struts. To keep its newest model clearly before the eyes of the public, Porsche referred to the cars as 911E's. They were stripped for action with non standard aluminium front body parts: fenders deck lid and bumper, they weighed about 1880 pounds, some 300 pounds less than a production 911S"

so on the race on Sunday, sell on Monday philosophy Porsche had the brand new "911E" model (which was much more expensive than the previous years models) with a one two win in one of the toughest races around.

They were stripped for action with non standard aluminium front body parts: fenders deck lid and bumper

thank you Hugh!

I found and mounted on my 911S Sport Purpose car original aluminum front bumper, front and rear decklid and doors skin

but i NEVER heard about front fenders ( except SC/RS ones)

Have you more info about them? Per number racing code?

thank you
Andrea

web photos of an aluminum fender that was for sale some time ago.

Ernie
You are the number one.
Dot com.

Thank you very much

Sorry Andrea, we're sort of bouncing back and forth between threads here. I cannot personally vouch for any features of the Marathon cars, other than the obvious visible attributes in the posted photos - the items on my list were just a culmination of things that had been posted by the group. Here is the quote from which I took the list of aluminum parts:

Quote:

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All three cars were run at the Nurburgring as Werks "GTS" cars. (Yes, that is what the factory called them)...

The three Nurburgring cars originally had aluminum bumpers F/R, Aluminum Hood and deck, aluminum doors and even aluminum front fenders! Truly unsung heros in the Porsche racing history.

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Here is the other thread:
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...d=1#post675592

a few details of number 9...

and a few more...

Ernie, these are absolutely brilliant!! Thank you for posting!

I can already spot aluminum doors and bumpers, plastic 100L tank, drilled dead pedal, rear-seat tool box, reinforced jack points and torsion tube areas, and what appears to be a '69 911S single-plug MFI engine.

I'm now going to spend hours looking at the details :)

more details to spot...

Great pictures Ernie. Do you have anymore of the race harnesses. ?

Thanks

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stretch

Great pictures Ernie. Do you have anymore of the race harnesses. ?

Thanks

Dave

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not much on the harness, at the time only the drivers side had a harness installed...maybe the webbing is a clue.

Thanks Ernie.

Another factory car with the Auto Total extinguisher !

Note: rear seat cushion, no filler inside... i

Ernie
You make me cry....
These are the photos i was searching for years...

I built my car with this one in mind, and now.... I see that everything is correct...

I'm SO happy.....

Thank you
Thank you
Thank you to share those photos with us.

good shot of the unbound needlefelf too !
Anyone know a supplier for this ?

I agree Andrea!! These photos both confirm past build decisions and affirm plans for the future. The most important thing is that it's really great to finally see detailed photos of a '69 Werks car.

These photos also confirm that the '68 Sports Purposes guidelines were still pertinent in '69.... A bunch of extras on 0009 are things we've seen countless times on '68 MY competition cars.

I'm extremely curious where the other two Marathon de la Route Werks cars ( 911300003 and 911300008 ) are today. Anyone have a clue?

Ernie W.
Thanks for sharing these photos. These are the only detail shots of a 69 competition car I have ever seen. And this one is remarkably well preserved!

I contemplated the Quail ticket during RRIV, with the goal of seeing this very special car.

Excuse my ignorance, but does anyone know what is going on in the red circles?

Attachment 264831

I was also curious Bryce. My best GUESS is that judging from the muffler shown on the engine that it might have been equipped with heat exchangers since there doesn't appear to be a gas heater. If that's the case it would seem that those small hoses you have circled are to direct (some) heat into the footwells. The water drain behind the cowl vent seems to be a handmade affair, not a production SWB part, and certainly not the production multiple valve HVAC system seen in production 69's. I'd say more emphasis was given to defrost than cockpit heat!

Wow --- really spectacular

Glad that someone was there, too, who could recognize this kinda car, then take + share those kinda detail shots



I just knew something was up when, all of a sudden, two more pages show up on a 5-year-old thread . . . then I see Ernie W making an appearance. And I have those alu fender shots saved, at home, too --- and I think there were bumpers and a hood mentioned, as well . . . all part of the same cache? Anyway, looks like I'll need to start bringing my fridge-magnet to Porsche shows, again

Again --- spectacular

Pics of the car posted by Ernie look like the same car that Cornpanzer and I saw a couple of years ago in a New England shop, except tidied up a bit. Belts are RePa but I can't remember if the billboards were still present. It was purchased by by its long-time owner out of a used car ad in the Sunday New York Times as a 1969 911S with rally parts...Sixes front and rear; plastic tank needed a re-seal; front fenders were steel as I recall and I don't remember the Scheel R seats being in there at the time. We drooled all over it.

Nice call Ed, this car has a special defrost system. It has two round vents added to the top of the dash

. . . finished rocker seams on 00009 . . .

Photos from a FS thread, about a coupla years back
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...-body-parts-FS

Seller identified these as factory alu bits

1st up . . . front hood

This looks like it has the same funky baked-on olive factory primer that I've seen on other late '60s-early '70s replacement bits

Rear bumper --- same Seller . . .

Now --- note the rivets

So, I'd guess that 0009 has alu rear bumpers?

Front bumper . . .

From the presence of the rivets --- I'd guess that 0009 has an alu front bumper, as well?

These narrow-body light-weights are prolly my All-time Favorite Early 911

Too bad I missed seeing this one

This is one in a set of b/w factory photos that's for the model year 1970 911S, Homologation GT. the back of the photo reads below...

That passenger seat looks a bit too new.
I think it should be this one
Attachment 264938

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ernie W

This is one in a set of b/w factory photos that's for the model year 1970 911S, Homologation GT. the back of the photo reads below...

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and again it shows that in Germany, the 1970 911S was sold standard in above version. If you would like comfort, you would order the E or start with a T.
It still has 69' handles, must be about May/Spring 1969.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flunder

Pics of the car posted by Ernie look like the same car that Cornpanzer and I saw a couple of years ago in a New England shop, except tidied up a bit. Belts are RePa but I can't remember if the billboards were still present. It was purchased by by its long-time owner out of a used car ad in the Sunday New York Times as a 1969 911S with rally parts...Sixes front and rear; plastic tank needed a re-seal; front fenders were steel as I recall and I don't remember the Scheel R seats being in there at the time. We drooled all over it.

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Flunder; Are you sure that it had 6s ft and rear? When I restored the wheels, they looked like a well worn set of 6&7Rs.. I'll look through my notes to verify the dates. Now at least, it has 6&7Rs. When the shop sent the wheels and said they were from a GTS. I had to go back to reread EWE to understand what car he was talking about. They were referred to as GT..S as far as I can tell. The big thing that I did remember from reading the book 30+ years ago was that S's were standard without trim and all of the trim had to be ordered so they could homologate the the car without trim. To get the weight down to race in a GT class.
H

Quote:

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Now at least, it has 6&7Rs. When the shop sent the wheels and said they were from a GTS.

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Harvey, do you know what size tires is it running in the photos from Carmel?

Wow, this forum is cool..
Some answers to a thread I started 5 yrs ago. Thank you Ernie, great detailed pictures. The 1969 competition cars were such a mystery.

Thank you for the photo Ernie! Do you have any more lightweight 70 pics?

I have one front end shot, the rest are back on post #5, #6, and above. This set of factory photos was on my 911R site, but since closed. The Dunlop Racing tires were 5.00 M-15 front, and 5.50 M-15 rear, and both "204 CR65". The rear wheel hub had a spacer (photo). The color shot is a factory post card.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bxd

Harvey, do you know what size tires is it running in the photos from Carmel?

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As Ernie said, it has 500M front, 550M rear and 500L for the spare. Those were the sizes I recommended to closely replicate the original Rs dimensions (I figured that they may have used the same?)... From the photos, they look like those are the sizes that the shop used.
H

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ernie W

I have one front end shot, the rest are back on post #5, #6, and above. This set of factory photos was on my 911R site, but since closed. The Dunlop Racing tires were 5.00 M-15 front, and 5.50 M-15 rear, and both "204 CR65". The rear wheel hub had a spacer (photo). The color shot is a factory post card.

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That hub spacer looks like the same as the R spacer at 21MM. I wonder if it is.... By my calculations it shouldn't be more than 15 or 17MM.
Nice close up of the spacer, Thanks, Ernie.
H

Thanks Harvey!!

I came across this snippet in another old thread and thought it should be added here for posterity and searching ease:

Quote:

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320017 built in June 68. Has swb lights etc. vin 119300004 and was used by factory until Sept 69. Was Pauli Toivonen's practice car for several rally events including the Acropolis in which he won overall. Car was designated GT-S by factory. Has really cool alu 100 liter center fill gas tank.

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I don't have a photo of 0004, but according to this it was also a factory GTS competition car. Interesting note that it has an aluminum gas tank... looking at the photos of 0009 we see a later plastic tank, which maybe means it too had an aluminum tank at the beginning of its life.

Here is the thread where I found the quote:
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...irst-LWB/page8

Here's some information posted on the 'Family Cars' thread . . .
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...rs-.-.-./page4


I had never read/heard of the designation 'GT-S' --- in connection w/ any Early 911 . . . until I read this thread

And now --- after looking at ST Man's table . . . I would love to know the body number of 0009


Be a helluva Kardex, too, I bet


Is the Owner on this board?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LongRanger

And now --- after looking at ST Man's table . . . I would love to know the body number of 0009

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I would also, and a photo of the paint badge as well. I would not doubt that the GTS were all from the 32xxxx series .
Did I miss anything tying the MdlR car numbers to VIN #'s?

Here are the MdlR GTS car chassis and entry numbers as I understand them:

#30 was 119300003
#29 was 119300008
#28 was 119300009

I know Hugh and others were searching for photos of car #29, but to my knowledge none have been found, or at least posted here. #29 apparently dropped-out of the event early with mechanical issues, so there may not be any images from that race.

I for one would REALLY like to see more photos of #30 (0003). This car most likely has SWB parts on it from the factory, like tail lights and dash components.

Theres also a very good article of ths car in this month pano, not as extensive with pics as Ernie, but still veru good article.

Another thread --- 1969 S M471 . . . .
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...80-1969-S-M471

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911T1971

and again it shows that in Germany, the 1970 911S was sold standard in above version. If you would like comfort, you would order the E or start with a T.
It still has 69' handles, must be about May/Spring 1969.

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It has the '69 three bar engine grill as well. I think the car is a '69 & the pic was taken in 1970.

119300932, the '69 Acropolis Rally winner with many lives afterwards, discussed in this thread:

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...-Factory-Rally

Another thread + comments . . .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by monaco1

. . . The problem is that the auction houses (or the owners who consign) think ALL old Porsches, both road and race cars, are worth ALL the money when in fact - as has always been - only the best sells for best money - usually !!
All qualities of Porsche have indeed risen quite a lot but the gap between a top car and an average car is still wide - something these auctions fail to understand.
This car / chassis No, was basically a narrow 2.0 ltr single plug rally car that was over time converted into a group 4 race car with not much decent history there after and in later life.
It's true value would be back to it's original 69 spec. The group 4 parts when removed and sold (race engine etc, etc) would be worth roughy the cost of the restoration back to original spec - give or take - so would cover that.
The original cases of that car in 69 would have been magnesium also - not aluminium as fitted !! - so no worries about loosing the "matching numbers !" (rallies - tour de France, several times Le Mans - inc 2.5 ltr - all with original cases !?!? - "there are no virgins in a whore house " !).
As such, it's not worth anything like - about half - of one of the 21 real 1972 factory 2.5 S-R's - or 2.5 S/T as they are often and mistakenly called ( i.e.; racing originals are 911-R, S-R & RS-R which were all built at the factory to full spec, whilst a ST is a 911S built for competition purposes, either racing or rally, narrow or wide, with a multitude of different and chosen spec's).
I think 900k is the right money for that car, whilst if it had been one of the original factory 2.5 S-R with good history / results / provenance and in top condition it would have certainly gone well above the high estimate. But, as they say, " if my Auntie had balls, she'd be my Uncle" !
Also, rally cars are not, and have never been, worth as much as circuit racing cars - the auction valuation was just too high.
As a rule, these auction houses are no experts, more jack of all trades, and it's usually the the buyers / collectors / owners that set the values. They are far better informed and educated in these cars than the auction houses and - apart from the odd attack of auction fever - know exactly what they are bidding on and paying for.
This is also evident in both the Carrera RS (Touring and LWT) that were in the sale, both very average cars. The LWT was valued way too high, for that car, so didn't sell, and the touring sold at a reasonably high level for an OK ish, non matching car. Not all RS are the same just because they are RS's - as we all know.
When something just right, rare and correct comes up for sale it usually sells for very high money. The market / buyers, as the prices rise, are becoming far more discerning and rightly so.
This bares out in all makes. If you look at the results, not only recent sales but last year also, you'll find that the high prices are still all around, but the car has to be very good or very rare, and if the car is average, then an average estimate should follow. As Thomas said above, "a very healthy market" . . .

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Originally Posted by monaco1

. . . Not just 1970. I am aware of that model, they were offered as the '911S Grundmodell' from 69, i've owned one.
They used one in the advertising photo's to promote the 'new up coming 2.2 Ltr engines' in later 69 (including the light ivory car in your top picture taken from the press release and poster). I have the original spec sheets for those cars somewhere in my files. A base model stripped out 911S but not really a S/T.
S/T refers to the M471 LWT chassis option for competition purposes - both narrow and wide - and then spec'd up accordingly from that basis. Not all S/T were full group 4 with wide flares and race engines and not all had the M491 option also - both Werks team cars and customer cars.

Also available were 2.4S in LWT spec with M471 chassis option. I still own a 72 car, narrow body and standard mechanically with M471 LWT chassis / panels, trimmed as a LWT, bucket seats, with no body trim, no body protection but standard mechanically. Like a RS LWT but a 2.4S instead of a 2.7 RS. Listed on the original factory build spec as 911S 2.4 M471 LWT chassis.
This is not a S/T either as post 71 when the S/T stopped, but a M471 LWT E series 2.4S.
Same as you could buy a 911 RS M471, you could also order a 911S M471 in 72 and 73. Rare but a few were built and sold to customers, and not only in Germany.
Some of the werks drivers also had these cars to use as road cars.

Michael Kaiser, amongst others, also owned one of these (1972 E series narrow, standard 2.4S, M471 LWT) which he ordered through Max Moritz and used as a road car in Europe during the 72 season whilst he was racing his 2.5 S-R. It later gained wide fenders - fitted by Moritz - and was used as a camera car for the 'Speed Merchants' film. I also used to own this car many years ago and knew it for even longer. This is one of the more widely known cars of this type. I still probably have quite a lot of photo's of that car and copies of the old road titles / chassis No's & road registration No's etc.
If it were a 71 car then it would be a narrow S/T but as from 72 it is a M471 LWT 911S . . .

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Originally Posted by monaco1

. . . Attachment 321865Attachment 321866Attachment 321867 . . .

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Wow!

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Originally Posted by glaverbel911

. . . Whats not mentioned in this letter from Porsche about this 69S is the car also had a bare interior, skid plates, 100l tank, ivory color and a porsche decal on the back lid . . .

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Reference . . .

VIN = 119300865

Out of curiosity, why do people go back into threads, years after posting content, and delete important photos or information they shared with the community?

Did anyone get all the "Ernie W" detail photos of 119300009 stashed away before he deleted them?

If so, please PM me.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Ernie W

. . . more details to spot . . .

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Hhhhhhh




...........

One question re the Trans-Am series from 1969-70. How many of the 911's LWB
cars? I'd assume many of the competitors would have upgraded to the 69S model
as soon as possible?

69 cars as upgrades were typically skipped from my research. This includes Le Mans and other period series races. You typically see 70-71 cars as next logical paths, probably because of the displacement changes.

I would love to find someone who has tracked 69 competition cars beyond the few mentioned in this thread.

Interesting...did some quick research and it appears that in 1969, the Porsche 911's raced were either 1967 or 1968 cars (and then we get into the Model Year conundrum). Ultimately, there were very few cars raced so it's a pretty select group. I don't see any 911's in 1970...

http://www.racingsportscars.com/cham.../Trans-Am.html

Some examples...

http://www.porsport.com/1968_911_trans_am
http://porsport.com/1967_porsche_911...trans_am_coupe

As was said before the TransAm was pretty much two classes of sedan racing 'Over 2.5 lt. and Under 2.5 lt.'

Close to end of '68 SCCA deemed the 911 NOT a sedan (even with all the 4 passenger seating arguments Porsche made for the last 2 years)

Meanwhile in SCCA 'Class racing' 2 lt. 911's actually stared in D/Production in '66, however by '67 they were classed in C/P all the way through '69... For 1970/71 2.2 lt. SCCA started classing the 911's in B/Production except for the 2.2 T's that were still C/P...

Also remember that SCCA allowed a 1.2 mm bore increase for all production classes...


Here's the page for my buddy's '71 GCR

Hope this makes it a bit clearer... However the SCCA were VERY ARBITRARY back then.... :rolleyes:

cm

So most of the 69's that raced in period we're converted to ST
Specs? I find it odd that odd privateers would not have jumped on the lwb. If SCCA was pushing thev911 out of class I can see the lack of cars in competition.

The factory did prepare three identical C/P 911Ts for the 1969 SCCA season. Vin 119100194, 119100215 and 119100216 were all light ivory and were equipped with the following: 901/16 high performanced tuned, 901/13 five speed/Nurburgring gears, black leatherette, front oil cooler, 16mm sway bars, 100 ltr tank, LSD, roll bar, foot rest, 6 inch wheels/Dunlop tires, leather steering wheel, CDI, and ventilated brake discs. These cars were delivered to VOA via O'Hare airport in April 1969. Cars went to Kline VW-Porsche, Art Bunker Porsche and George W. Dickenson. All three cars qualified for the '69 runoffs. The Kline car had a long long career including 3 Daytona 24 and seven Sebring 12 hours, and won the Porsche GT Cup U.S.A. in 1974. Cool cars and relatively unknown.

sanders,

Your gem contributions to the forum are precious.
Do you know if any of the above mentioned 69 competition Ts are still around

The Kline car now belongs to Dave McNeal owner of WeatherTech. I saw the Dickenson car destroyed at Road Atlanta in the mid-70s, could have been repaired but I doubt it. I know nothing about the Bunker car.

I was at Kline Porsche, Indianapolis the day the car was delivered. 40mm Webers on the motor, but a pair of 46s along with a 911R exhaust system in the trunk. Car was raced in SCCA C Production by Kline with their GM, Jim Osborn, driving or 1-2 years. Jim made it to the runoffs in '69. Then sold to Indy Region member Bill Marsh, who raced it for a couple more years in SCCA. Car then sold to local dentist, Tom Barrick, who did all the wrenching and ran IMSA GTU with Dave Causey, Ron "Moose" Parish, and Ed Taylor driving. Car was pretty well cut up with big flairs and deleted rain gutters. They won the IMSA GTU Championship along with Porsche Cup in '74. Car went through several owners and was restored back to it's original CP specs ( I think) by Phil Bagley, Klub Sport.
I saw the car again, restored then, in the Klub Sport pits at Rennsport II, Daytona. After that other owners, an appearance at the Carmel Concours a couple years ago, and now Dave has it.

When you saw the Kline car at Rennsport II that was my restoration. I had shown the car at Amelia Island in 2000 where it won an Amelia Award in the race car class. After several owners and lots of vintage racing it was time for another restoration and that was done by Phil. The picture in Starkey's book is at my old shop.

Nice work and thanks for filling in the historical blanks. It wasn't clear to me who did what and when. I had lost track of the car after I left Indy and it's IMSA days ended. That car has had a lot of hard miles, and it's great to see it still out there running.

I hope this isn't too far off topic but restoring old race cars make for new relationships. Tom Barrick was very helpful back in the late 90s when I restored his old car and I want to relate a few of his stories. He told me that there were no big diameter torsion bars available for the 911 in the early 70s. Someone told him that VW used big bars on their specially built ambulances and they would fit the 911. After much searching he found them in a wrecking yard in Quebec. Then there was the story of Sebring 74 (I think it was 74), his wife said if you go to Sebring I won't be here when you get back. He went. And lastly my restoration of his old car rekindled his passion for racing. He built a replica of his IMSA car and with "Moose" Parrish they went vintage racing. I saw them at Barber in 04. And then there was John Higgins. He owned the Kline car in the 80s. Raced IMSA. Funny guy, was the comedic writer for the Smothers Brothers.

I see Tom and Moose when I go back for Med school reunions and Indy 500s. I always wanted to find that car back in the 90s before the vintage frenzy hit. A lot of fond memories with that car and those guys.
We lost the real anchor of the Indy Porsche hard core this week with the passing of Mike Robbins. Crewed on his 904 in the 70s and many special rides in his 500K mile Speedster. The definition of enthusiast and friendship.

Mike and his Speedster were legendary, RIP.

Did anyone save Ernie's pics and can repost?

Wow Rick that's the good stuff right there!
I can tell you one thing the paints much nicer on
119300009 then it is on 119300950 lol! Makes me rethink how far the restoration needs to go. Maybe more preservation then restoration.

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Originally Posted by LongRanger

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Please don't delete Rick. They are and were in a public forum.

If the concern in the original deletion was to prevent some sort of forgery of authentic factory details, the car should never have shown up in public.

Put it this way, if you delete them, I will just repost them :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beh911

Please don't delete Rick. They are and were in a public forum.

If the concern in the original deletion was to prevent some sort of forgery of authentic factory details, the car should never have shown up in public.

Put it this way, if you delete them, I will just repost them :)

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lol, I'm with you :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beh911

. . . if you delete them, I will just repost them :) . . .

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I totally get that, Bryce . . .


. . . which is why I gave notice = 'copy while you can' That's what I did



Nothing that's here picture-wise is 'for profit' --- at least I sure hope not . . .

And so much of what we show, talk about, and share here is pretty esoteric --- NOT the sort of thing even the WAY-above-average Porsche Person would care much about. Half-century-old cars? Puhleeeze!


And/yet . . . some of the people and events and cars and details that come up here are simply frickin' amazing --- and it's thrilling for me to see some of these threads come together, and the topics they touch


I'm always a little wounded when people pull their posts + pictures, stop contributing, or just plain fade away. I mean --- I get it . . . I barely have time for this stuff, any more, myself

But. I can't stay away. So. I save what I can, contribute what I find interesting, and try to encourage anybody/everybody who comes here to do the same


I mean --- after all . . . . . . where else would we ever-EVER come across + share some of this stuff?



.......

Okay then.

Here comes a deluge of detail on 119300009, a factory 1969 911 GTS, one of a handful built. This car was the winner of the 1968 84 Hours of the 'ring or Marathon de la Route.

These pictures were taken when the car was on public display at the Quail Lodge during RR IV's Porsche Race Car Classic if I remember correctly, as well as Pebble Beach. These photos were in public forum, shared by a few forum members. Some of these pictures were subsequently taken down from the forum by the original contributor for reasons only known to them.

This car was also featured in a few articles in print and online magazines not long after the public displays.

If the following few posts disappear or are edited, it will have been done by a moderator for whatever reason, not me.

It's just a car after all, but a special one at that.

Enjoy!

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Modern times:

Pebble Beach
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Driver Willi Kauhsen reunited with car at Quail Lodge display

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119300009 Details

Many small, ad hoc one off type stuff on this car. Note the crude but effective solutions for storage, dead pedals, fog spot mounting brackets in the grills, and passenger side signaling light on dash.

Much of this appears original to the car, unmolested, which makes it that much more interesting.

I have a few more beyond this collection but this highlights the details.

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more 119300009

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Final post on 119300009

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Very cool pics and information. I love the LWB lightweight cars.

Thank you for posting some additional photo's i had not seen before. One of the other three cars is currently being restored here in the UK at the moment. It will be interesting to see how many of the quirky parts are fitted in this other car.

Dave

00009 looks rather stock in SCCA form (#40). Just about all these early cars have evolved over time and make period photos so valuable. Here is the Kline 911T when new.Attachment 441124

This article might be of interest: https://petrolicious.com/articles/th...ifieds-section

Maybe of interest group III trim prepared for Pauli Toivenen Monte with carbs not fuel injection 2litre with output 195 bhp geared to a max 100mph at 7500rpm

Being driven by Jürgen Barth in 69

Attachment 456337

Pictured in 69 in British publication

Steve

^^^I believe that is a 68 T/R.
See post #5 here:
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...cars-1965-1972

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beh911

^^^I believe that is a 68 T/R.
See post #5 here:
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...cars-1965-1972

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Yes my CURRENT understanding is that SC 9167 was 118 2 0433 with engine 408 0618 and gearbox 428 0601 and it received an "upgraded engine tune" on 17 January 1968 that voided its Kardex warranty (just in time for the 1968 Monte Carlo rallye

that combination would make it a T/R

Not sure the brief write-up to photos informs much... but for what it is worth it's below.

I picked this old 1969 magazine up at Bicester Scramble last month for 20p because it's cover mentioned a test of works 911...

Attachment 457026Attachment 457027

It does mention car has a roll bar although photos don't make its presence obvious.

Hi Steve
thanks for posting that article
It is not quite accurate. That car WAS a 1968 Monte Carlo car but for Zasada (#198) and then he did rally Vltava and rallye de Tchecoslovaquie in it. It was ALSO the Toivonen car AFTER Zasada for the 1968 Geneve rallye which he won as car #19, and also the 1968 Spanish rally which he also won

Hardly the greatest example of in depth journalism Hugh, but the cover page caught my interest. Picked up all twelve editions from 73 for fiver at same stall. Some interesting articles and the old adverts for equipment etc are facinating particularly in light of what old school trinkets people collect these days as pricey accessories and automobilia. Think I previously sent you an article about RS national rally event in 73 from one I already had some time ago.

On subject of automotve writers went to an event at my club just before London Brighton run and sat down next to a gent. Introduced myself and turns out to be Kenneth Ball who wrote various repair manuals including Porsche that I suspect folks will have on their shelf. Member too. Lovely chap. Interesting to chat to. Wasn't speaking just among the audience to hear the other guests speakers at the annual automotive lecture series, he said. The guild of motor writers is based out of there too iirc.

The club has an amazing archive and library. Every Autocar magazine dating back to 1899. More relevant to to rally cars every Autosport. Through some work I did with the governing body the RAC MSA I became friendly with a chap who who started his career as the rally desk editor at Autosport before becoming the managing editor of that magazine for many years. He had a great love and an encyclopaedic knowledge of rallying. After leaving Autosport he ran the clubs automotive activities. I once took a friend along to the club who owned a Factory rally porsche -- organised at very short notice. En route phoned ahead arranged for us to take pictures in a prime spot at clubhouse and he rushed down to meet us when he heard the car arrive . A over drinks on terrace explained to my friend he'd covered the rally event back in the day and had fantastic recall of detail. Sadly he died unexpectedly -- a huge loss.

If you are ever over here I'd be most glad to host you to enable some digging into resources at the library as it probaly holds lots of things that might answer some questions.

Best

Steve

Related thread with new information from Monsieur Sanders

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...a-Route-Winner