. . . on eBay, ref 380106005844
At Corvette Mike's. Reported as Italian delivery; engine and trans number given . . . but no VIN.
Printable View
. . . on eBay, ref 380106005844
At Corvette Mike's. Reported as Italian delivery; engine and trans number given . . . but no VIN.
If matching numbers, as claimed, the VIN should turn out to be ~1334 which was an Italian delivered touring with absolutely no options (which was quite common with Italian RS's). The invoice date (seller claims Jan 73)does not match the build date (RS book says May 73). The car has obviously aquired some options along the way. Still has it's Italian front lenses though.
Regards
Mike
IF this IS #1334, it is not matching numbers. The original case is LONG GONE, and a replacement case was built and stamped with the original engine number.
Yep Stacy, Rob's old RS.
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...highlight=1334
Thanks Brian, I thought it was. Good job on tracking down the ad. Let's see if we can find the SECOND ad, after he got it back and the engine was replaced, recased and restamped. Rob was ALWAYS very forthcoming regarding the engine stamping and replacement case. Obviously, after he sold the car that info was 'forgotten...' That said, I always did love this RS...
This is 1334, alright. Asking price is hallucinatory, IMO.
The missing photo.
This one?Quote:
Originally Posted by 69Sman
andy
I had the pleasure to drive this one with Rob, in the passenger seat though, but boy it has some punch in it. 2.8 or even 2.9!
Cees
That's the one. Anybody interested in this car should see THIS ad...Quote:
Originally Posted by ajwans
I'm just going to go and grab my flame suit....
I have no opinion on this particular car but I do think in general
that a non-matched case (restamped NOS blank or not) does
detract from the value.
The reason that a matching number car is preferred is that it
says something about how the car has been treated over its
lifetime.
It was never crashed badly enough to be a cut'n'shunt.
A rod was never stuffed out through the case.
The transmission wasn't grenaded by a missed shift.
A 7R case is a 7R case, what makes a matching numbers
car valuable is what you can infer about the car because
it's still in one piece.
I don't know Rob and while I applaud his disclosure I
personally wouldn't have replaced the case, in my mind
that car will never be whole again.
andy
Boy, I have tried to keep myself out of the fire lately. I see Andy's point.
IMO the non-matching case in this car just creates a point of difference. It is the marketplace's responsibility to determine if it impacts the value of the car. In this case [Pun intended] I can not see where it creates much of a difference in that the original case is [was?] with the car.
Something to always keep in mind is that many cars had the engine replaced for whatever reason back in the 70's. Back then there was no forsight that someone in the 90's or 2009 would care. Any car with race history wasn't raced very hard if it has it's original case,or whole motor. If a engine went sour, simply plug it another. In the case of the RS's, the block, (case), was made from magnesiem, which was very light, but not that durable. Many of these cars were raced, as intended by Porsche,would explain why many of the cars don't have the original case. A non original case might effect the price 10% or so, but it's not a reason to go bannanas. I know one thing for sure, there are many RS owners who think their case in original, but it's not.
To quote Tommy Chong....
Uhhhhh..........yeaaahhhh.
"No stems no seed that you don't need, Acapulco Gold is a bad@ass weed"
Tom
I have a matching numbers 72T and I am in the midst of building a E spec 180 hp 2.4 for some extra fun. My plan is to store the matching numbers motor to keep with the car. Does this make my car worth less?
No; It makes it worth more especially if you end up selling the car with the new motor and the original with it. ;)
Tom
Quote:
Again, what's the purpose of a serial number then?? Yes it's honorable to give the original case -- but what happens when the orig. case and this car get seperated?? With all the BS that goes on with forgery and fakes, how is this any different?
How can a seller present this as a matching numbers car?
Above is quote (posted by 'Vinny') from thread referenced. This guy took some heat. As the ebay ad makes NO reference to the replacement case i would suggest Vinny wasn't totally off base. Not commenting on value here as i neither have the inclination nor the funds to own such a piece of history but the fact remains that while our guy was incredibly honest and well intentioned with his restamping he has no control over how this will be treated in the future.
Whether those of you who might be potential buyers would ding this car or not for the well done replacement case is a personal decision but surely ALL of you would like to know the facts when deciding how much to pay.
I beleive the Porsche factory suppied the blank case. Why do you think they did that? To replace cases that were damaged beyond repair. They even re-stamped them to match the original number. I believe the blanks were refered to as industrial cases. Any help here on this one? BTW, If the factory did the replacement would it be an issue?
Cheers,
Duane
Has anyone put the seller on notice yet? Is it our obligation to make sure he doesnt fraudulently represent this car to an unwitting buyer? Or is it caveat emptor?
Question was put to Corvette Mike and the response was...............Quote:
Originally Posted by markg
We have paperwork that shows the engine was rebuilt. No idea how to determine the originality of any Porsche component. Please have a qualified inspector...
Hmmmm.... I suspect the original case must be gone. S Registry to arms a foul is going to be committed...........
OT but of interest perhaps.
Vintage BMW's motorcycles are worth more as an original. If the engine doesn't match the frame you get a big deduction. Now the kicker is if you have the engine from something like an R68 or R50-S you hold the majority value of the motorcycle. Why?
BMW motorcycle engines are nearly impossible on which to fake the stamping. The "BMW Roundel" logo is part of it on both ends of the numbers. It is located in a place not easy to "work" (i.e. weld up)
I haven't seen one done like the factory yet. The depth and font type is critical.
Porsches are a walk in the park as are most American cars, especially Corvettes. There has and will always be an underground for faking things like this. It stinks to high heaven and we owe it to the hobby to rat out bad apples.
Tom
Ah, the jack asses on the side of the road along with the crows sitting on the fence never fail to perform, probably sitting in their underware in front of their computers at 11pm or so, drinking beer and pounding away on their keyboards with demeaning comments and worse yet, unfounded opinions while the real world goes by...:D
never assume underwear or beer..... might be silk PJs and champagne especially when discussing RSs. :D
You're right, but I couldn't afford silk or champagne when I had my RS:p
i'm a bit fuzzy here re. Duane's comments...who would be the jackasses?
sellers who don't report the restamping? Sreg members who have opinions?
???
Certainly not you. Your post was very articulate and dead on, hardly demeaning........... But tell me about your commuter habits..........Beer and undies or silk Js and bubbly?Quote:
Originally Posted by berettafan
Forget underwear - they might not even might be human:Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pt767S
http://www.unc.edu/courses/jomc050/idog.jpg
Might even be crows. :D
Cheers,
JohnA
Well truth be told if i've been drinking you'll find me in PPOT posting about the last wine i had that i enjoyed:D
Hey guys, my only real gripe is, that an innocent seller can get hurt financially through no wrong doing. berettafan had it right, each "case" should be taken on a case by case basis. There's a lot more inside the case that's more important. Documentation helps.
Oh, and what about all the original case motors that have been incorrectly re-built and may not be anywhere near original spec. To me, it's what's inside that counts:p
What's the difference between restamping an engine and restamping a chassis?
I wear a hat and drink Kool Aid. And it's 12 noon cause I'm unemployed, so I can only dream of owning an RS.
But it still doesn't change the fact that you cannot predict what future buyers will claim when the value is dependent on that claim. Just ask a Shelby rebody owner who traced their car's origins. The original owner who rebodied the car disclosed this fact, but several owners down the line seem to have lost their memories and the cars history became muddied.
Easy, you can get a blank case, you can't get a blank chassis:rolleyes:
Good old Shelby had enough vision to keep a pile of genuine, original Cobra ID plates. Only to resurface @ an opportune time on new Cobras, go figure. Saw the booth @ Barrett-Jackson Auction one year.
Also, if your interested, WWll war birds recovered from the ocean have nothing but an ID plate, everything else is corroded beyond use or repair. There are a couple of restoration facilities that rebuild the plane from scratch, spars, wing ribs, etc, at a cost of several million dollars. Once completed, the aircraft is worth a small fortune and is airworthy. The Air and Space Museum in Washington D.C. allocates from 20 to 30,000 hours to restore an aircraft. The reproduce every component of the plane using OEM suppliers, if possible.
Tires, castings, forged parts, whatever. Once completed the aircraft is used for a theme display in the Museum, then retired to a climate controlled environment where it will be preserved for future generations. Makes our cars seem like a Paint Masters tape over 3 day paint/restoration for $299.95 + tax.
But Duane......the question now that begs to be asked...what are you wearing? :D
To your original point I did assume. A subsequent owner to Rob could have re-installed the original case :rolleyes: ....Mea Culpa. :)
Hey dude, good question. But I'm a guy, shouldn't that question be on a "men seeking women" forum:eek::eek:?
Greetings to all my long lost Porsche friends~
I have been away from the PCar game for quite awhile. Busy with 3 growing daughters and running a major charity as well as my day job.
Fortunately, enough of you still know how to track me down that this thread was brought to my attention. I thought I would chime in for ****s & giggles.
That is indeed my beloved #1334 for sale at Corvette Mike's of all places. I have many fond memories of that brilliant RS!!!! As many have pointed out, I sold the car in late 2006, with very full and thorough disclosure that a NOS
7R case had just been installed in the car as part of a complete engine rebuild. I fully disclosed that said case was stamped and the car had "matching numbers", albeit on a replacement case. Regardless, the car was my favorite RS out of 4 that I owned.
The good news about this close knit early car community is that anybody who is serious about dropping big $$$ for one of these cars will VERY LIKELY get looped into this flow of information. As many of you have correctly pointed out, the ultimate buyer will have a chance to decide with his wallet whether or not this issue makes a difference to him.
I don't think there is a great risk that the buyer drops $200K +/- on an RS without doing some due diligence. As many have pointed out, at any given point in time there are certainly greater skeletons in Porsche cars for sale in the marketplace.
Keep doing such a great job tracking these early cars guys. You truly are providing a wonderful service to any prospective buyers.
I hope this email finds all of my old PCar friends happy and in good health. Best regards to all.
Rob Wolford
P.S. Any serious prospective buyers are welcome to PM me. I will answer anything I can remember about the car.
Dude, who let the dead guy in here?
Rob, can I PM you for ****s and giggles? ;)
yey, he lives!!! Better than #197 sob sob
Clyde,
I didn't say BETTER than #197 - just my favorite.
#197 was like my prim & proper gorgeous Catholic virgin from a nice family. #1334 was more like my naughty little pole dancer who could teach me a few tricks!! :D
Hope all is well down under. One of these days I'm going to come knockin at your door!
Rob
Good to hear you hadn't messed with #197 if she is still a virgin!!!
You've been threatening that for years Rob, we are ready any time you care to arrive
D@mn I always had a thing for pole dancers.........Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfturbo
I believe you brought ones attire into what was a civil discussion......Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pt767S
and as far as opinions and comments I agree with Rob Wolford 100%........Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pt767S
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfturbo
If you put 2 apparently identicle cars side by side and invited a roomfull of buyers, the original car would sell for more than the non-original car every time. That's a fact (jack). But by how much is the question. And there is the opportunity for fraud.
Even the most experienced and esteemed experts on early 911 values get regularly surprised by dollar numbers because value changes constantly. There is no such thing as fixed value on collectibles, but, the people that can assess trends and movements and can best-guess the market are the most effective predictors. But even then, someone with way too much money comes along and pays wa-a-ay too much for the car he always wanted and wads up everyone's panties. Hah! "Shoulda been more." "Shoulda been less." "Holy crap, he's asking HOW much??! (bastard)." Whatever it is, it's worth comment.
Engine cases are born unstamped, then assigned numbers to go into a particular chassis. Newborn cases were made available to the public to replace a broken original. The factory did it all the time in-house for customers and then stamped in the original case number. That was the intent. Hell, they even replaced entire bodies on balled up customer cars and stamped those with original numbers. There is, in fact, a factory part number for the bare replacement body or body-in-white for every model of the 911.
As Rick said, you thinking it's pure, there is likely a non-original, un-whole, bastardized, devalued, spoiled and defiled otherwise collectible 911 sitting in your garage. The horror.:eek: Sell it to me... cheap. ;)
Amen to this my old friend.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfturbo
Although 197 was 'fondled' just a bit in the past, but you corrected that when the roll bar came out.:D
Hey Rob, good to hear from you. I really enjoyed blasting around with you in this sweet car for hours through the California canyons. Great time.
One of the most wily characters I've ever come across... ;)
Tom
I have a recollection of reading (probably on this board) that when the factory replaced a case the serial number was reproduced but, another character was added to denote a replaced case. I want to say a letter "P"???Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens
Am I correct?
If that were done during private replacements that would take all of the guess work out of the equation later in the vehicle history. However, there would always be some who wouldn't want to make it quite so apparant, RW not included.:)
I betcha the factory did that sometimes and other times not so much. Kind of reminds me of the story of the factory resto of the so-called first 911... yikes.
I've seen factory replacement cases like the one in the picture below (I obscured the numbers to avoid offending the owner of this case/engine/car). AT = Austausch = exchange or replacement. If you cruise mobile.de you will often find car ads (not just Porsche) listing "Austausch Motor".Quote:
Originally Posted by 70SATMan
-Scott
Great Scott! AT, that's the one. Thanks for the graphic image.
That's jogging the old gray matter. Where did I get "P" from anyway:rolleyes:
Must have been the tea.:D
Thanks Scott!
Good to see you here on the board Rob! I am catching in on you....daughter number 2 was born 6 weeks ago...Sorry :)for posting this in a car oriented thread...
Rgds, Cees
...I have a 1972S "AT"-case where the "AT" is before and outside the stamped "Stars"...while "Scott's" is inside and embrased by the "Stars"....could be prior v.s after a couple of "Wahrsteiners" for lunch in Zindelfingen, I guess....regardless of that, I would love to own and drive Rob's ex. Viper Green RS .../ Lars...
I don't know if this thread is suitible for children!
For reference . . .
VIN = 9113601334
Eng# = ?
Trans# = ?
. . . and . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by smclaughlin
. . . good stuff!
:confused:Not sure why this thread has been resurrected? Rick - this is Wolford's ex RS, currently owned by board member Denson. Is there a question or ????? :confused::confused: