Here's a nice car - I find the pre-auction estimate to be very strong in this market but it looks like a nice enough car.
http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails...Z10&CarID=r116
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Here's a nice car - I find the pre-auction estimate to be very strong in this market but it looks like a nice enough car.
http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails...Z10&CarID=r116
Its listed as an "R/T". Not sure what that representation is. Looks like a nice build at a strong price point.
A "TR" would be a SWB car btw. 1968.
I'm sure it's a nice car, but that auction description is pure horse caca.
Is that a technical term?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr9146
Also how is purity established?;)
:D
I think it's extruded. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by boba
As they say in Montana, you can always get the oats cheaper once they have been through the horse. Reads more like BS than horse caca to me but hey that's just my unprofessional opinion
Phil
I just wanted to use the word "caca" in an open forum. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by boba
Purity can be ascertained by looking at whomever is doing the shoveling of the aforementioned feces. ;)
I've not seen the car, but with Jim Newton (Automotive Associates of Canton) as the builder the car is going to be just about impeccable. Newton is about the highest shelf you can go...., he's got 3 Manhattan trophies, and a couple of Gmund awards as well, in PCA concours. He's restored many real RS's and RSR's as well as 356 4 cam cars. I had helped final prep on a 56 GS/GT Carrera Speedster at the 1991 Parade, and we had a Jim Newton restoration RSR next to us (which I think won the Manhattan) and it was beyond exceptional. Newton also does the mechanical aspects as well. Tony from Autobahn has been working with Jim Newton recently and it's possible that Tony did this interior (I'll ask).
So.... just my .02.... but it's possible that the estimates may just barely cover the "tab" for the restoration.
cheers,
Eric
Newton's work is impeccable. Not only does he win councours awards, but he also races the cars. He recently restored a 356 Roadster for me (Eric - I introduced Tony to Jim - Tony did the interior on the Roadster) and it is impeccable - probably better than the Paterek restoration on my 67S.
The car appears to be stunning from the shots. Has anyone inspected the car?
R/T = Road/Track?
"911R Touring"
Freshly built and immaculate.
Correct it is listed as a RT not a TR must be a Freudian slip from my growing SWB fetish :D
The car is being offered "without reserve" so technically it could be sold well below the low estimate, if there is no bidding war...
So the owner must be pretty confident that the car will attract bidders....
Jim's location in Canton is local to me. I have had a chance to examine quite a few of his restorations. I remember one RS vividly. The above comments regarding his work quality is spot on, he knows what to do behind the wheel and he is a great guy.
The sales price may just cover the restoration in this market. I bet it is a hoot to drive.
Tom
looks like the car symbolic had for a good long time that never moved.
Something about the A/C on this car just turns me off and makes me suspect of the other details. Seems like a perfect auction car though, as the quality of the modifications looks good and RM attracts a pretty high dollar crowd such that this might be an impulse buy. Maybe another car for F40 Motorsports......
Anyone going to AZ for the auctions?
What about the A/C don't you like? I'm toying with the idea of bidding on this car, it seems like a perfect early hotrod to me and since I'm a wuss about heat the A/C is a nice plus...Quote:
Originally Posted by geshaghi
I believe that car ended up being converted by Dave @ TRE into a ST currently residing on the east coast. It was featured in Excellence.Quote:
Originally Posted by LA964R
I think the A/C is totally out of character for the hot rod nature of the car, both in the engine compartment and the interior, but that is just my preference. I don't believe this is the car TRE did that was featured in Excellence recently - I saw TRE's car when it was in their shop right before the photo shoot and the engine shroud was a clear fiberglass. I don't think the TRE car had A/C either.
It's what the auction crowd calls a 'resto mod.' Restored/modified to a custom vision by folks with impeccable credentials. There may be one buyer in a million, and that guy may have the cash.
Sure looks good in the pix.
Seller and RM are probably hoping that there are at least two buyers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Gris
I saw the car yesterday at Newton's shop. Very nicely done with a lot of interesting and unusual details. The slight flare of the rear fenders is tasteful - starts high and is large radius as seen from the rear. the 7x16 wheels allow greater tire selection - currently is running R compound Michelin vintage look tires.
The car is not about originality or rare parts, rather a hybrid of different periods. Early, recovered dash, original basketweave fascia w/ 911T logo, repo seats with b/w houndstooth, light gray 356/SWB square weave carpet. SWB door panels and pockets. Boxster radio with XM in ashtray and amp under passenger seat, although the car makes great sounds and therefore the radio would be hard to hear.
As you would expect from Newton, the gaps and paint are near flawless. The donor car was apparently rust free and one owner so it was not a bare metal job. The wheels are fine, though not to Harvey's standard. The badge on the hood is new. The car now has a black engine grill over the mesh R type one.
The motor is a rebuilt 3.3 race motor detuned for street gas with 50 PMOs (!). It has about 1000 miles since rebuild. The car is extremely, probably frighteningly fast. Newton has a dyno and I tend to believe his figures, so 345hp at the flywheel is probably accurate. To my taste, the car is likely over-powered and under-tired, but Newton is a racer and he isn't concerned.
Overall, it is a curious car, purpose built for a former racer living now in Arizona (thus the AC). It is sort of several removes from the obvious - not a 'tribute' car like high quality RS clones, not a high fetish/obsessive car like Jeff Smith's WMD, and not a car built from the ground up. Newton once used this car in a talk as an example of 'recycling' and in places it does have the character of a project built up from intelligently selected spare parts. It is fast, nicely made, and it will be interesting to see to whom it appeals.
The owner likely has well north of $100k in the car. If I had to guess, I'd say it is worth probably between $70 and $80k in this market - but with seller's premium and buyer's premium and entry fees and shipping, there is a 16-20% delta between what the buyer pays and the seller receives so auction values are tricky. But there may be two bidders who want a turn key early hot rod who are not concerned with those things over which this board obsesses. At an early 911 gathering, it is probably the motor that would be most interesting - much of the rest is familiar - and very well crafted.
It will be interesting to see how it sells.
Thanks Steven. Motor does sound exceptional.
nice to see a bastard get some love.
A few more pics:
http://www.automobileassociates.com/...11RTouring.htm
I concur... This car could go relatively low considering the quality of work done.Quote:
Originally Posted by AirKuhl
Wow! I wonder how you get a streetable 345HP out of a carb'd 3.3 on pump gas? That's a pretty good trick. Even with twin plugs, how high of compression and how fast do you have to spin it to get that kind of output? I had a 3.4 with the Mahle Sport 10.3:1 pistons running PMO 50s, 171e Webcams, Pete Weber QH exhaust w/Phase 9 mufflers and I could only get 260 HP to the rear wheels on the dyno. Even with a generous flywheel conversion factor, I was hesitant to claim 300 HP (with 100cc's more displacement than this motor).Quote:
Originally Posted by steven0401
:confused:
TT
Did I say "exceptional" .........Quote:
Originally Posted by ttweed
Trying to parse the flowery original description, I'm going to guess that 345 flywheel HP was a best case on 100 octane race gas, original "tuning" and a typically optimistic Dynojet dyno. Now that it's detuned for street gas and allowing a typical 15% conversion, I would guess this car is closer to ~240-250 rwhp.Quote:
Originally Posted by ttweed
Still probably puts the car above the "magic" 10lb/hp mark. At this point I'd be more interested in seeing the shape of the curve on the dyno than the numbers.
Apparently anything can happen at an auction. BJ just auctioned a horrible 928 headlight style slant nose 78 wide body targa for $48k :eek::eek::eek:
I'm amazed at that money - if it was an early car on eBay with the same treatment it could make a top ten worst 'updates' list.
If that's a guide this RT should easily bring $100k
now, THERE's a car that was "well sold" :D
Wow...:eek:
Maybe, maybe not. The BJ buyer (now there's an image) and the reason he bought that car are not the same as the person who'll be at RM and interested in the TR Clone. It'll be interesting to see if the latter is out and spending.Quote:
Originally Posted by healeykit
I have to say I do enjoy watching Spanky Assiter work an auction. Particularly at Keeneland.
I agree they aren't the same buyer, I just can not believe that car brought that money. I get the low mileage but this car will never be a collector car, very very well sold. Amazing what happens at auctions
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/appli...&ed=01/19/2010
I'm sure the buyer spent the night at the bar bragging to his buddies about his new Porsh :rolleyes:
Car sold at low estimate - $85k + 10% = $93.5k
Based upon description [not seeing it] this car was sold fairly.
i saw the car........i was not impressed enough to pay $85K. But i am not an expert on this type of conversion. for $85K, i would have bought one (or two) of the Austin Healey's I saw sell for $40K.
I saw this car run through at RM.
It has a lot of eyeball, looks very nice in person.
We are all geeks on here so it would be doubtful anyone on here would buy it anyway. The rich need their hot rods too.
Guys like sithot bad mouth every single price for every car that comes up here so you can NEVER listen to a thing he says, you are a real piece of work buddy.
All of us in here overpay for cars too but in a different way. You buy a car for $25k, have it painted or engine built $8k, maybe add all the MFI back on rebuilt by the right guys $6k, buy wheels and have them re-done $4k so you end up with $43k into a car that you end up selling for $30k. Lots of us loose money on cars and when you think about it paying too much initially removes the labor out of adding bling which in turn translates to a major time savings. Time = Money. Who is loosing more??? Bargain getters who loose all their time building things or someone who knows what they want and can get into ownership of a car and out of a car at the snap of a finger
Sorry Tom but you irritate me by being negative about every asking price for every car, I see that is your mantra.
I am a car dealer and an industry professional I base my thoughts on genuine experience. I did well in Scottsdale this year but I do not recommend people run cars through just any auction and expect to hit pay dirt. If you go the auction route you might want an experienced agent to help you do the deal.
Oh and Barett-Jackson is a F-ing carnival or a county fair scene. I seriously do not recommend anyone run anything through that faceless un-remorseful shady company. A company that makes more money with sponsors than the cars themselves (thats a guess). Everyone in the know does not waste their time with the carnival in Scottsdale. You will get hosed unless you are in the inner circle.
x2 what VintageExcellence said. I am a perfectionist myself, but not everyone can be and they do not need to be dogged at every turn. Just my observation. We are all here to have fun remember that.
Mark,
Tom is one of most knowledgeable curmudgeons I know;). We need more like him.
I too saw this car go through RM. I had inspected the car and had ridden in the car in Connecticut at Newton's shop before the auction. I also own several comparable cars - hot rod early 911s built by the best people with extraordinary motors. I believe that car was worth about $75-80k based on more than a few comparable cars. What struck me was that this car had few rare or valuable parts. Other than the motor, which was really a later race engine, the parts were repro or spare parts. The car is likely over-powered and poorly balanced - too much hp for the tires and suspension. Also, many cars that sell for comparable money could be parted out for almost their sale price - not true here. The body work was to a very high standard, but it was not a bare metal repaint -the car was not dis-assembled. My experience is that once one exceeds $75k, one is either looking at an amazing orignial car, or a car that has been virtually re-made - everything has been replaced or rebuilt.
At auction, there are sometimes buyers who want a turnkey car and are not as knowledgeable about the subtleties of comparables as those who build and collect the car. It is a virtue - or liability - of the auction process. For example, there was an OM that sold at Gooding for low money because it was unfamiliar to many of the bidders.
Hot Rods or re-creations by the "top" experts out there are expensive propositions. I have done two cars both on conservative budgets. I have also wittnessed the building of a top re-creation at the highest level of detail by an expert using many irreplacable vintage parts. Given this experience I consider $80,000 for a car built by a top shop to be a well purchased car.
I have not seen this specific car. I have met Steven and have seen one of his cars and appreciate his insight based upon his experience. It does seem given his evaluation that this car was more well sold vs. well bought.
sithot; do not know him other than the board, sometimes I do not even understand him ... all I know is I look forward to his posts and his knowledgable opinion.
Being late to the Early S party, I'm here to learn as much as I can before I plunk any cash down. I appreciate the broad spectrum of opinions expressed on this board. I also appreciate that negative opinions are generally offered with civility and often a touch of humor. If everyone were a cheerleader I wouldn't be learning.
I need to join the fray here on the value of this car. I am very familar with the car having seen it take form over many months during its construction. I did not know if was for sale until after the auction was already over. As far as the value goes, I would have been very happy to have had the chance to buy it for the amount of money it sold for at auction. I consider it my loss. I hope the new owner enjoys it!
Interesting discussion. Let's remember that this car was sold at one of the high-roller Arizona auctions. Buyers in Arizona tend to have quite a bit of money and are there for the "experience" as much as anything. If you follow Sports Car Market magazine, which I read for entertainment rather than to find cars, $85K plus commission is about what the auction crowd is currently paying for a "nice hot rod" whether it's a Porsche, a Deuce, or a Chevelle. This car has a lot of eyeball and will deliver a lot of pleasure to a man of means who wanted the RM "experience" and a fun hot rod to take home as a souvenir. Most of the folks who read this forum are not auction high-rollers and we buy and sell our cars "by hand." We exist in a different marketplace and I won't cast aspersions on either buyer or seller in this transaction.
I'm not aware of a "hotrod" 911 with no pedigree that has ever sold for more money at a public auction. I think this sale shows how strong and broad the appeal of old 911s has become (despite the economy). Not that long ago modifications of any kind on a Porsche were really frowned upon.
A car is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. End of.
Who are we to judge if they were a 'fool'. For all we know the new owner could be a multi multi millionaire who was happy to pay that price and have a good time at a high end auction rather than searching every classified half their life and getting inspections done to 'save' a few $ to them which means little.
Does that make them a 'fool'?
Personally I think not.
Maybe the new owner is going to rag the nuts off it everyday and enjoy every minute of it. Who is the fool then? Him or the person who has their car sitting in it's garage all year, all shiny and going nowhere?
One mans fool is another mans hero.
Hope the new owner enjoys it :)
I don't recall anyone referrng to the buyer of the car as a fool. Merely the buyer wanted the car more than others (I was the underbidder).
I thought the auction results were fascinating. At Barrett Jackson a lot of hod rods/custom cars went for a bunch more than I thought they would. The more "normal" cars seem to have dropped. Then I checked the Goodings results (here if you are bored http://www.goodingco.com/auctions/results/scottsdale10/ ) and was really surprised at how HIGH the prices were in all. I'd have bet lower on almost everything.
I'm not sure auction results are replicable outside of the bright lights and open bar. I would contrast the car which is the subject of this thread with a very nice swb hot rod that was recently listed here and sold by magnus walker with an asking price of just under $50k. Magnus' car seemed like a much better value than the car sold by RM (even if the claimed power output of the RM car is true).
Jonesy what i think it comes down to is that if you pay resto price for a bastard you've been had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy78
Possibly what we've seen here is that branding (Eric tells us the names that worked on the car are absolute top shelf) is worth $$ in the form of an implied assurance that the work done is to a high standard.
We may also have seen that the 'R' type look (non-S front spoiler, no exterior trim, etc) has jumped the shark. Too bad as i have finally caught up with the times on my own bastard T (also available for $60k) but then i don't need reassurance that my taste in 911's is great so i'm ok with that;)
It is indeed a nice looking ride.
I guess that's it in a nutshell alright. Trick is knowing a bastard when you're looking at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by berettafan
bastard by my definition (which may not be the same as everyones) is a shell with a motor from a different series (T vs E vs S) or even different year (ie 2.2 vs 3.0 or 2.4, etc etc).
typically these are not built on S chassis hence the value is more or less in the (somewhat discounted) parts with a heavy discount (traditionally) on labor. This is not a Porsche thing but a car/bike thing in general IMO.
I was merely commenting on this implying the buyer was...Quote:
Originally Posted by steven0401
Quote:
Originally Posted by sithot
I do so wish that I had room in my garage for that car; I would have bought it sight-unseen, full price! However, there are several 911T hot-rods documented on this Board which easily have double the sale price of the RM car invested in them. If anything, the RM car sold on the low side given the usual synergy between the bidder's bar and the chandelier in the back of the auction tent. I'm out earning money and don't have the time to invest in building a car like this. Try and have someone else build a 911T hot rod of this quality for you for less than this car went for; it won't be easy. Plus, the buyer had the "experience" of buying in the atmosphere of a high-roller auction tent. Not a bad deal, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by geshaghi
Very interesting discussions with some great input, perspective and a little passion for fuel.
Jonesy
Most modified Porsches that are shown on this board surpass the original design of the car whether it is a T, E or S. As stated by Erik very few Ss have been hotrodded or modified in the last few years due to their value in original form. IMO, they are the factory hotrods.
The problem with building and selling a top hotrod is they are distinctive with very individual style. This limits their marketplace vs. an original car on two important counts, buyer's vs. builder's taste and pocket book. In this case the car was to the taste of the purchaser (rung his bell) and he was well healed enough to afford to purchase.
I, for one am very encouraged that a modified T sold for $93,000. It makes the $s invested in my 73T not seem quite so insane.
Given this thread it creates the question in my mind if a high end auction indeed is the best way to sell this type of car.
Perhaps our tastefully modified and R-grupped Porsches will become the muscle cars of the B-J scene in this new decade......Quote:
Originally Posted by Macroni
Barrett Jackson is such a dodgy scene for Porsche cars. Usually funny modified Porsches run through there, although that 356 cab a few years back had everyone wondering. Still BJ attracts a very non-Porsche crowd. That being said you never know what will catch someones eye.
I guess I am a little overly pissed at BJ partly because the run order they created which resulted in a car I ran through, 1967 Hemi Coronet Convertible RT 4spd one of three made Galin Govier certified (say that 3 times fast), ending up around $100,000 short of what it should have at the time on 2006. The worst thing that can happen at BJ when you have a high dollar car is having a ridiculous value car go right in front of you. A 1970 Chevelle LS6 convertible factory drag car that never lost a race does 1.1 f-ing million dollars!!! Took all the steam out of the auction on our Hemi, everyone got up and got a drink or went to the bathroom. An older friend of mine got screwed by BJ on a 427 Impala convertible that one of BJs very good customers bought and later decided he did not want it, the deal was reversed with the seller of the car out of thousands of dollars. Numerous other reports are out there of bad deals with them. There is a major inner circle at that auction. If you are in that circle then you will be taken care of.
I've never sold a car at a collector auction, but I sell commercial trucks and heavy equipment quarterly (without reserve) at auction. I've learned that hanging your hopes on one piece is a gut wrenching experience. Out of five or so, I'll lose on one, do okay on three, and hit a home run on one. I'm sure the dealers that are in the inner circle you refer to think in the same terms.
All of that said I just can't get my mind around the fees the collector car auctions charge on both ends. With travel, transportation, and entertaining your wife, your car has to bring over the top $ to net even a "good" price.
Correct Tom, those of use that make money do it on averages. A friend of mine brought 14 cars to Scottsdale, lost bad on some but made out on others. Can you Imagine 2 Reliable trucks pulling up at your front door and loading up!
What do you guys think of a Resto Mod of a different sort. I have a painted dash Gulf Blue 912 that I have been considering working with Dean Polopolus on a 4 cylinder 911 engine for the car. The car is not number matching so engine can be anything. Concours condition 200hp short wheel base car in full short wheel base deluxe trim. Faster and more expensive than a SWB 911. I would need to get $75,000+ for the car. Any bidders?
Interesting..... 200hp is enough power... the idea is very cool. I tried to convince board member Speedo to do this with the 68 912 he had. Personally I would be in if it was a softie.....Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageExcellen