Werks 911 Rally cars 1965 - 1972

A couple of weeks ago I asked here about the the source of the table below which shows in some detail a lot of information about works 911 rally cars, including chassis numbers up until 1972.

I had a copy of the German version and not only did i get a quick response as to where it was sourced (Busing and Barth) but an English language one was also posted.

The reason I was asking is that i have a lot of photos of werks rally cars over this period with details of drivers, events etc but only limited information tying those back to specific chassis identities. This table did the opposite: it had a lot of information on chassis numbers, engine numbers and car types but no cross link to what the car looked like, registration numbers, events it was in etc. I was interested in the table because if the source was reputable (and it is) i thought it might be possible to cross reference my photos and other information with the information in the table to create a more comprehensive database and possibly document a significant amount of the early history of these werks cars.

i was aware from looking at the table that it had some errors in it that i could spot, possibly typos in some cases but misinformation in at least one. Also i am under no illusion that this was an easy task, or indeed achievable without detailed access to the factory records - and maybe not even then.

However i have been always surprised at the depth of detailed knowledge on this board and thought that if I start it off, and then post what i have, the "power of the crowd" may create something that no-one could by themselves.

I have had some success in putting the two sets of data together, but I have also made some assumptions in the information that i have put together. I have tried to show what are assumptions and what i believe to be fact. However I am under no illusions that if a table from Busing and Barth, who would have extensive werks access has errors this may well have them too.

So I am putting the challenge out to see how far we can take this. i know there are some members of the board that do not like to share a lot of this data (presumably in the hope that it gives them an advantage in finding this type of car) but I would counter that the more information that is out there the more likely they will find out something new and the piece of information that they are holding may just unlock other significant facts helping them as well.

So here is the start of this.

The format for posting this is that I will try to stick to the werks cars listed in the table below in year order and match photos and registration and the first event they did. I have usually stopped at the first event, although i often have much more, as the objective is to tie a chassis (and maybe engine) number to an identity such as registration that can be used through time. Also the reason for using the first known event is that typically these werks cars did a couple of events, then were used as Recce or practice/backup cars for a couple more before being sold off to favored clients / private teams. Thus picking the first event gives the best opportunity to determine an identity.

Source THE PORSCHE BOOK BARTH & BUSING (note there are some errors in this table)
Attachment 207968


1965 – for 1965 Monte (and later?) 911 2.0 “Monte”
300055 S-UV 333 engine 900241 car #147 Linge / Falk 5th


Attachment 207969

1965 911 2.0 “Monte” for 1966 Monte and later
3 cars
303075 engine 903353 S WX 449
303076 engine 903355 S WX 450
303085 engine 903374 S WX 451

Also one press car 302736 engine #902695 no photo known

The Werks cars were all red (Rubinrot or Polorot?), and at the 1966 Monte were:

S WX 449 Monte, Glass/Wutherich. #131
Attachment 207970

S WX 450 Hans Walter and Werner Lier 4^th in GT #139

Attachment 207971

S WX 451 Schlesser and Buchet car #57

1967 911S 2.0 “Rallye”
3 werks cars with registration S-YS 847, 848 and 849

All had engine type 901/30
306655S engine 960641 S-YS 848
306656S engine 960688 either S YS 847 or S YS 849
306657S engine 960704 either S YS 847 or S YS 849
However the Barth book also shows 3 further cars in this category. These must be technically “customer” 2.0 Rallye cars although werks supported
307671S engine 961778
308291S engine 961989
308101S engine 961898 S ZP 740
One of these may be S-YZ 234 a rallye car for Elford in 1967 Swedish rally and as a service car for Zasada in Argentina who drove car 25-15-KR.
Another MAY be S-ZP 911 a rally car fore Elford at the 1967 Geneva rally and then for Hanrioud at the 67 Tour De Corse
Maybe one for Zasada? 25-15-KR?? P.Frere book: 1967 911S-2.0 'Rallye" 1991 ccm 80 mm bore 66 mm stroke 10 c/r 170 HP

Probably not one of the Swedish Scania Varbis cars. They were mainly1968 911L’s. Andersson’s B70046 had a chassis number 307 4xx so maybe one went there, and maybe Waldegaard’s B34880 was it as it was a “sister car” to B70046.

Maybe the Walter / Lier 1967 Monte Carlo car #45 was a werks “customer” car as it had the rear rally plate fixed the same way as the werks ones. Don’t know registration

Attachment 207973

Attachment 207974

306655S engine 960641 S-YS 848
Monte 1967 car #57; targa 67 car #46; Le Mans practice 1967 car #44 and car #5 rallye de Geneva 1967 for Hanrioud (4th)

Attachment 207975

S YS 847 Monte Carlo 1967 3rd #219 Vic Elford/David Stone

Attachment 207976

S YS 849 Monte Carlo Rally 14th-20th January 1967
13th 165 J-P.Hanrioud / J.C.Peray

Attachment 207977

308101S engine 961898 S ZP 740
Elfords car for cancelled RAC and 67 le Mans car #43

1967 911R prototypes


these are put in for completeness to match the table. there are lots of good posts on this board with more detail on these cars

4 cars and the table has some chassis numbers and other details wrong. Prototype chassis numbers should be:

305876 R1 911R Prototype 1 light ivory S-YZ 28
306681 R2 911R prototype 2 fire red S-YZ 29
307671 R3 911R prototype 3 tangerine S ZZ 829
307670 R4 911R prototype 4 lemon. No known werks registration number
Attachment 288802

This is 305876 R1 at Mugello in 1968

Attachment 207979


306681 R2

Attachment 207980



307671 R3

Attachment 207981


307670 R4


Plus “Production” cars 11899001R to 11899020R

1968 911S 2.0 “London to Sydney”



3 werks cars but chassis numbers not identified in table

Attachment 207982


UL-Y 826 11820427 ENGINE 908058 car #55 Hermann
Had previously done 1967:Acropolis Rally Spa 24 hours
84 hour Marathon de la Route on the Nurburgring and 1968: East African Safari

Attachment 207983


S-H 7987 car #58 Zasada London Sydney 1968 chassis 11801174 paint badge # 97-6809-L engine 4081428

Attachment 207984


S-H 7737 London Sydney car #59 T Hunter/J Davenport

Attachment 207985

1968 911S 2.0 “Rallye”



5 werks cars with 911/30 (should be 901/30?) engines. These may have been badged “T” in T/R homologated with “408 xxxx” S engines
11820433 engine 408 ????
11820455 engine 4080581 Registration 428 Z 2097 Monte Carlo 1968 #116 Pauli Toivonen then became BYK 90 for AAW team
11820472 engine 408 ????
11820702 engine 408 ????
11820765 engine 408 ???? S-E 8330 (68 Nurburgring Killy, Monza 1968 Killy, then rally car 1968 RAC Fall, 68 Geneva Toivonen, 1969 Alpine Larousse and then Larousse Magny Cours)
Only 4 engines recorded 4080588; 4080618; 4080931; 4081017;
Possible other Registrations: S-C 9166 (Elford at 68 Monte); S-C 9167 (Zasada at Monte ); S-E 8053;

Attachment 207993


11820455 Monte Carlo 1968 #116 Pauli Toivonen

Attachment 207994


Elford at 68 Monte “911T” and called “T” elsewhere

Attachment 207995

Acropolis Rally June 1968 3rd Pauli Toivonen/M.Kolari Porsche 911T


Attachment 207996

S-C 9167 1968 Monte Sobieslaw Zasada/Jerzy Dobrzanski “Porsche 911”
Is this one of the “L’s” – called an L in some rallies but a T in others

Attachment 207997


Killy May 1968 Nurburgring 1000km – 11820765

1968 911L “Zasada”



2 werks cars
11810409
11810591
Possible Registrations: S-C 9167; S-E 8052

Attachment 207998



1969 911R “Tour De France”
1 werks car 11899005R engine 5080019 S-K 2403


Attachment 207999

There were other 911R’s listed but not as werks cars. Does this imply this is the only werks entry?
So does that mean that S-K 2402 (008R) for Elford, Larousse etc was not a “werks” car despite being parked together at the werks and having a consecutive number??


Attachment 208000

1969 911S 2.0 “Rallye”



6 werks cars with 911/30 (should be 901/30?) engines:
119300529 engine ?? S-L 2263
119300530 engine ?? S-L 2264
119300548 engine ?? S-L 2265
119300912 engine 6390004 <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:TargetScreenSize>800x600</o:TargetScreenSize> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]-->S-M 2927
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:DoNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-AU</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <w:DontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> 119300931 engine ?? S-M 2928
119300932 engine 6390010 S-M 2929
Werks registrations
S-L 2263 1969 Monte car #37 Waldergard / Helmer
S-L 2264 1969 Monte car #31 Gérard Larrousse/Jean-Claude Perramond
S-L 2265 1969 Monte car #28 Elford / Stone
S-L 2266 1969 Monte car #25 Toivonen/ von Beifahre

Attachment 208001


That probably accounts for 4, but maybe one of them was a 68 car, or one of the so called "GT" cars which had very low 1969S chassis numbers and ran in the Marathon de la route that year, because there was a “SM” series of 3 cars for Acropolis, all in tangerine, totaling possibly 7 cars rather than 6 recorded in the table above??
S M 2927 car #6 Björn Waldegård/Lars Helmer
S M 2928 car #4 LARROUSSE / Jean-Claude Perramond
S M 2929 car#1 Pauli Toivonen/Martti Kolari


Attachment 208002


the 0912; 0931; and 0932 cars

Attachment 208003

Attachment 208004


Attachment 208005

Hugh,
Great thread idea.
For 69, the six VINs in the chart appear to map to acceptable production timelines for pulling these cars to prep for the respective events.
With that, I think it is a safe initial assumption that the 3 earlier cars are for the Monte Carlo (Jan 69) and the later 3 cars were for Acropolis (May 69).

As you point out though, that still leaves one VIN missing for Monte Carlo. An initial scan of photos I have from that event doesn't show any 68 looking cars but sometimes that doesn't mean much as exterior can mask an earlier chassis.

901/30 (not 911/30, chart typo?) engine numbers would have been 3880001-3880028 according to Red Book. Maybe these cars' engines could be determined via elimination based on engines in other known cars...?

ok, so i have to ask. What about zasadas 912 rally car? was it factory or privateer?

i have only been able to find little info on the car and would love to find more details on specs, set up, equipment etc.. you guys are far more resourceful..

anyways, back to his rally car. i show he raced the following cars in teh following series

1967 European Rally Championship for Drivers Group 1 Porsche 911 S / Porsche 912/ Porsche 911 S/ Porsche 912
1967 Polish Rally Championship for Drivers Lancia Fulvia 1.3 Coupé HF / Porsche 912/ Lancia Fulvia 1.3 Coupé HF/ Porsche 912

http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?ty...&driverid=2521


Here is a press release from porsche congratulating zasada for winning the european championship in his 912

http://912registry.org/images/racing/cpsz.gif

Quote:

---

"1967 Year-End Report.

Second part, Motorsport

Sobieslav Zasada, Polish Ralley Champion, 912.

Porsche wins the European Championship for Gran-Tourismo- and "Close-to-Road-Spec" cars.

Since the last Ralley Monte Carlo with the Porsche-Team, top driving-team Vic Elford/David Stone overarchieved all expectations and won with their Porsche 911S not only the Rally European Championship. They won the Lyon Charbonnieres Solitude, the Tulpenrally and the Rally Geneva in their class, too.

In the "Close-to Series" cars class, the Pole Sobieslaw Zasada the European Master Title in a Porsche 912.

Elford/Stone = 57 points, Zasada = 64 points"

---

we also show he won the polish rallye in his 912 too..

before posting the rest of these i want to address a couple of things posted or PM'd already
Davep has mentioned that to aid future searches i do the engine and chassis numbers without any spaces. That is a good idea so i will go back and edit those posted already and try to remember to get rid of the spaces in the rest of the posts. I typically record them with the spaces in my database as i have found it easier to work out patterns and the last group of numbers just give the serial number of each type of whatever. However when searching I take out the numbers so Dave's point is well made

Bryce mentioned that the engine type for the 69 cars should be 911/30 not 901/30 and suggested (correctly I think) that it is a chart typo. That prompted me to think to mention that while i have said at the top i think there are typos in the chart, and perhaps wrong information, in most cases, excluding where a number has been duplicated or is patently wrong and one instance where the chassis number in the table is known now to be incorrect (1970 TdF car), i have left typos in despite seeing some of them (and probably in ignorance of others). I think that this board can sort them out and we can then amend the posts but if i changed them arbitrarily i may change something that was correct, but looked wrong, to something that was wrong and a valuable piece of information that possibly contradicted known "views" might be buried.

Harry has brought up the 912 Zasada car. There is no doubt that it did have a great record in events, and it probably was supported by the factory as many entrants close to the factory were. However I think that, unless there is other evidence to the contrary, this table shows that it was not a werks car. There were many other cars as well that had great records, and were driven by people who also drove werks cars. Some of those cars were ex-werks, some were customer owned and probably supported by the factory at different levels. I hope that the data from this table and the collective wisdom of the board may sort out which cars were in which category. If we bget close to that i think it will be a valuable piece of information about the early competition cars.

Harry
i will post the information I have on that 912 a little later - before you get your hopes up it does not contain any of the technical details you mention - only photos and records of some of the events.

1970 911S 2.2 / 2.3 “Rally”



7 werks cars
9110300001 engine S-T 5704 first event:1970 Monte Carlo; car #6
9110300002 engine S-T 5705 first event: 1970 Monte Carlo; car #2
9110300003 engine S-T 5706 first event: 1970 Monte Carlo; car #11
9110300949 engine S-R 2970 first event: 1970 Austrian Alpine Rally; car #3
9110300950 engine 6301281 S-R 2971 first event: 1970 Swedish Rally; car #9
9110301127 engine 6301557 S-U 9370 first event: 1970 Austrian Alpine Rally; car #4
9110300102 engine possibly S-T 5158 first event: 1970 Swedish Rally; car #2

The first 3 were Tangerine, the others Orange
Only 6 engine numbers shown.
6300159; 6301294; 6301281; 6301557; 6308505; 6308506.

9110301127 is known to have used 6301557 on the Austrian Alpine rally

However likely that some cars used multiple engines, 1127 did.

Attachment 208092


9110300001. S-T 5704. 1970 Monte Carlo; car #6 Waldergard / Helmer

Attachment 208093


9110300002 S-T 5705: 1970 Monte Carlo; car #2 Larrousse / Gelin

Attachment 208094


9110300003 S-T 5706: 1970 Monte Carlo; car #11 Åke Andersson/Bo Thorselius


Attachment 208095


9110300949 S-R 2970: 1970 Austrian Alpine Rally; car #3 Waldegaard/Helmer

Attachment 208096


9110300950 S-R 2971: 1970 Swedish Rally; car #9 Andersen/Torzelius



continued next post............

continued...

Attachment 208097

9110301127: S-U 9370. 1970 Austrian Alpine Rally; car #4 Andersson/Torszelius May 1970

Following that it was the super lightweight 1970 Tour de France car #139

Attachment 208098

9110300102 possibly S-T 5158: 1970 Swedish Rally; car #2 Waldegard



1970 911S 2.4 “Proto”



Was really 911 030 1127 engine type 911/21 S U 9370 not what is shown in the table.

Attachment 208099




9110301127 Tour de France 1970 Larousse / Gelin

Thanks Hugh! The press release by porsche made me think it could be factory, but the only pic i have (above) looks quite privateer (and the krakow license plate too), so i wasnt sure. I do not want to muddy up this thread, since its about rally 911s so if you want to, we can take it off line and you can email me any info you have to hoffman912@gmail.com.

do you know where i can find my own info on leif nilsson and other 912 rallye cars as well? i know those are privateers for sure. again, i dont want to impose on the thread or go off topic any more since it is for factory 911s...

1971 911S 2.2 “Safari”



5 werks cars Chassis numbers:
911 130 0637 S-AA 4826 safari car #1 Andersson
911 130 0647 S-AA 4825 safari car #33 Waldegaard Helmer
911 130 0683 S-AA 4827 safari car #19 Zasada/ Bien
911 130 0589 maybe S-AA 3129 unidentified team or practice car at 1971 safari
911 130 0683? Duplicated number in table?? Should it be 911 030 0612? Maybe S-AA 3128 unidentified team or practice car at 1971 safari
4 engine numbers shown 631 0962; 631 0922; 630 8504; 630 1557 (also used in 911 030 1127)
Apparently the 1971 safari had 5 cars – 3 Werks and 2 Recce entries
“The two Recce cars Porsche in the 1971 Safari rally had following start numbers:
#7 Entrant: SEARS TYRES; driver: R.Gerrish
#37 Entrant: MOTORSPORT CLUB; driver: A.Kling”

Attachment 208100


1971 safari team

Attachment 208101

9111300637 S-AA 4826 car #1 Andersson

Attachment 208102


9111300647 S-AA 4825 safari car #33 Waldegaard Helmer

Attachment 208103

9111300683 S-AA 4827 safari car #19 Zasada/ Bien

Attachment 208105


S-AA 3129 unidentified team or practice car at 1971 safari

continued next post.......................

continued.........

Attachment 208110

S-AA 3128 unidentified team or practice car at 1971 safari



1971 911S 2.2 “Rally”



2 Werks cars (but 3 numbers – does one belong above in an earlier section - ie 1970?)

9111300558

9111300565 engine 6310962 S-Z 7941 car #3 1971 Rally Sweden Waldegaard

9111300561

2 engine numbers shown 6310922; 6310962 (both also shown for the “safari cars” above)

Is one of the others S-Z 7940 car #1 1971 Swedish Rally Ake Andersson?

Attachment 208111


9111300565 engine 631 0962 S-Z 7941

Attachment 208112


9111300565 engine 6310962 S-Z 7941 car #3 1971 Rally Sweden Waldegaard

Attachment 208113


S-Z 7940 car #1 1971 Swedish Rally Ake Andersson

the last set to finalise the info on the table on werks cars

1972 911S 2.5 “Rally”



2 werks cars


9112300041 S-AK 1336 1972 Monte car #4 Larousse

9112300047 S-AK 1337 1972 Monte car #15 Waldegaard

2 engines shown as associated. 6622002; 6622003. However 9112300047 also has engines 6620008 and 6630021 associated with it


Attachment 208114

9112300041 S-AK 1336 1972 Monte car #4 Larousse

Attachment 208115


9112300047 S-AK 1337 1972 Monte car #15 Waldegaard


That finalises them, or at least what i can find so far.

Now comes the task of correcting errors / typos (Bryce is already ahead on that score) and adding information.

while i have usually shown only the first event of most of these cars there is much more information on many of them in the ultimate ST thread

Raj

i agree that there are a number of important cars left off - however i have tried to use what Barth says are the werks "911 production sports cars 2.0 to 2.5". ie the werks team cars entered in competition of one sort or another - mainly rallies.

Possibly there are some other werks supported cars and possibly private cars that have a greater claim to fame than some of these. Think, for example, the 911L rally cars from Sweden, the 911L trans am cars and the other 911L cars raced in Europe by people closely related to the factory, and the list goes on. Thomas L has done a great job cataloging the Swedish cars which should be seen as semi werks or werks supported entries but not as full werks entries and thus not included on this list.

S-UN 476 was prototype 13 (300002) i believe. I agree it is important but did not get recognized as a werks car for the purpose of the list that was published. To me that only means it was never entered by the factory in any competition. To me that is almost certainly correct. But for the same reason it should not be on THIS list.

it would be interesting to see a list of the important customer cars, werks supported or not. The only issue in creating it is there is no database of chassis numbers to work from like on this list. Many, maybe most, have been listed on this board including in the ST thread, the Le Mans one and Thomas's rally car one.

what is interesting to me is to see the extent of official werks cars over the period, whether you see it as small or extensive, and the identities of the cars rather than the bland chassis numbers. That is the purpose of what i was trying to do here

I had been toying with the idea of listing individual cars after this, with the history and pictures of events as werks cars and then afterwards - to the extent i can get data, and then hot linking them to the chassis numbers in the posts above..............then i head a cold shower after realising the scope

however such an expansion of the scope of this list is possible.
I am interested to see if posting this draws out new information or not. I cant believe that this is the extent of the information on these cars out there. Also i have made guesses in this and probably some mistakes or have incomplete information. Thus i am seeing this as a work in progress with a relatively narrow scope, at least at this stage

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HughH

1968 911S 2.0 “Rallye”



5 werks cars with 911/30 engines. These may have been badged “T” in T/R homologated with “408 xxxx” S engines
11820433 engine 408 ????
11820455 engine 408 ???? Registration 428 Z 2097 Monte Carlo 1968 #116 Pauli Toivonen then became BYK 90 for AAW team
11820472 engine 408 ????
11820702 engine 408 ????
11820765 engine 408 ????
Only 4 engines recorded 4080588; 4080618; 4080931; 4081017;

---

11820455 engine 408 0581 (Kardex source)

RIchard

fantastic!!

thanks richard

now i will have to figure out how to keep this update - possibly edit the original post but put in red or something similar

Thanks Hugh,

Great thread you have done, great job you've invested in order to document the Porsche factory rally cars.



http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...stonemonte.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HughH

1968 911S 2.0 “London to Sydney”



3 werks cars but chassis numbers not identified in table




Attachment 207982


UL-Y 826 11820427 ENGINE 908058 car #55 Hermann
Had previously done 1967:Acropolis Rally Spa 24 hours
84 hour Marathon de la Route on the Nurburgring and 1968: East African Safari

Attachment 207983


S-H 7987 car #58 Zasada London Sydney 1968

Attachment 207984


S-H 7737 London Sydney car #59 T Hunter/J Davenport

Attachment 207985

---

Hugh,
A mate of mine bought one of these three cars a couple of years after the "London-Sydney"...but I don't know which car.
I went with him to buy it ...from an apartment on the Punt Rd hill in Melbourne.
It had been stripped of the 'Roo bars etc. ( that's KANGAROO protection bars..for our U.S. friends. Hitting a big 6-foot 'Roo, at speed, in the dark, is no fun!)

It had been (badly) re-trimmed back to Street standard..with "normal" seats and re-painted light/lime green. It was well known as "Sweet-Pea" ..'cos of its colour.
You can imagine, the inner guards/fenders looked like they had been hit with a Ball-Pein hammer 'cos of the flying rocks etc.

A fast car never-the-less.
My mate lived on a farm at Bunyip-south (Gippsland) and I got to drive this car along the Longwarry-Drouin Rd... at speed ...on many occasions.
He owned it for many years until an old lady "T-boned" him at an intersection in (the then country town of) Drouin.
He retired the car.

I have heard rumour that it may have been ressurected and is still in Victoria?

I don't see this bloke much now..but I do get a christmas card.....so in good time I will ask if he still has or knows any "Identification" eg Chassis No. etc.. and will let you know.

Cheers
Bob

Raj

you make a good point. And it is possible that this list that Busing and Barth published is not comprehensive. But even if it is it only covers the cars entered in the events - not training and practice cars (with the possible exception of the two safari cars listed).

However there were a lot of practice cars and as we know occasionally (like the 1973 targa) practice cars got pressed into service in the actual event.

In later years most of the practice and recce cars seemed to come from the ranks of the used werks cars - ie a car was used in a couple of events, then for a couple as a practice / recce car before being sold off. This obviously could not happen in the earliest times so it is most likely that development cars like S-UN 476 filled that role.

It would be great if you can dig up whatever else you have on these and post it. I think i have some as well but i tried initially to limit the cars i was posting to the ones on the list or ones that were likely to be the chassis numbers mentioned.

One that may fit into this category is the car at the 1966 le Mans practice that FAP901 mentioned in the 911's and la Sarthe thread S WX 407. It may have been the mystery press car mentioned in the table - 302736. Certainly the licence plate fits in to the general time period, coming just before the werks cars S WX 449 etc. Maybe the guys decided to take the press car "out for a fang" around the le mans track to see how it would go - probably treating it better than the press would have anyway:) The photo FAP901 posted is below
Attachment 208251

Bob

I am not sure that the car you mentioned is 11820427, UL Y 826 , car #55 at the event. or not. It was converted to RHD by Alan Hamilton, did lots of events here before being trimmed as a road car and painted green in the early 70's - maybe 1972. However I thought that car was a darker green and i am aware of it being involved in a big shunt in about 1980 after which it went into a corner in a shop until about 1986. here it is then

Attachment 208253

It is still in Melbourne, owned by Ian Henderson, and now restored to original specification. Last time i saw it it did not have all the cages etc but here is a picture of it with them

Attachment 208252

It is not S H 7737 as i believe that car is currently owned by Porsche cars GB.

It might be the Zasada car S H 7987 which used to be here in Melboune as well - i had it last in the possession of Reg Mort but with no other details

I wonder how much weight those kangaroo bars add...

I am not sure that they could have put them on a 912 and expected it to be drivable Harry?:D

Raj

to your point about other cars being used, here is a photo Bob Fleming sent me from the Lewandowski "901" book with 300 002 plate # S-UN 476 parked at the side of the snowy road and Herbert Linge filming, training for Monte Carlo. It is a factory photo.

ok, so it looks like a lot of these cars, especially swb ones, did not have roll bars.. is that correct?

2nd... where can one get a rear defog screen like the one in the back window of this pic

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...4&d=1329309748

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HughH

I am not sure that they could have put them on a 912 and expected it to be drivable Harry?:D

---

haha, that would be overkill for me. and i agree!!

Such a great thread to draw inspiration from!

Does anyone have any photos of the 1966 Deutschland Rallye? I have a pristine badge from that one mounted on my 66 and I've yet to see a photo of the winners or the car.

Attachment 208349

Here is a photo of Gunther Klass and Rolf Wutherich at the 1966 Deutschland rally
They won it in car #4 and Klass was European rally champion in 1966.

It is hard to read but i believe that car is S-WX 449, the same car as they drove in the 1966 Monte Carlo (car #131, 17th OA), the 1966 Coupe de Alps (car #90) ,and the 1966 tour de Course (car #89, 10th).

he was also 2nd in the 1966 VI Rallye dei Fiori but i don't have a record of what car (apart from being a 911), the 1966 Geneva rally (again a 911)


As a matter of trivia Rolf Wutherich was James Dean's mechanic and in the 550 with him on that fateful day.

Thanks for the post and info. It would be a great picture minus all the ownership overwrite.

I particularly sought that badge because it was not only a 911 that took 1st, but also the connection to Wutherich. Who annecdotally also stabbed his wife numerous times and spent a few years in a mental hospital before himself dying in a fatal car crash. Sad really, the Dean incident seemed to haunt him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HughH

Here is a photo of Gunther Klass and Rolf Wutherich at the 1966 Deutschland rally
They won it in car #4 and Klass was European rally champion in 1966.

It is hard to read but i believe that car is S-WX 449, the same car as they drove in the 1966 Monte Carlo (car #131, 17th OA), the 1966 Coupe de Alps (car #90) ,and the 1966 tour de Course (car #89, 10th).

he was also 2nd in the 1966 VI Rallye dei Fiori but i don't have a record of what car (apart from being a 911), the 1966 Geneva rally (again a 911)


As a matter of trivia Rolf Wutherich was James Dean's mechanic and in the 550 with him on that fateful day.

---

HughH ,

I wonder if any of these Prototype 1967 - on body numbers correspond to any of the chassis numbers used for rallying , that your looking for/at ? :

(Supplied by ST Man . Thank you by the way , this was very interesting) :

Body No Year Model Chassis Number Number Produced
320-001 1967 911 S (Versuch) 1 of 9
320-002 1967 911 S (Versuch) 2 of 9
320-003 1967 911 S (Versuch) 3 of 9
320-004 1967 911 S (Versuch) 4 of 9
320-005 1967 911 S (Versuch) 5 of 9
320-006 1967 911 S (Versuch) 6 of 9
320-007 1967 911 S (Versuch) 7 of 9
320-008 1967 911 S (Versuch) 8 of 9
320-009 1967 911 S (Versuch) 9 of 9
320-010 1969 911 S (Versuch) 119300001 (?) 1 of 2
320-011 1969 911 S (Versuch) 119300002 1 of 2
320-012
320-013
320-014
320-015
320-016
320-017
320-018
320-019
320-020 1967 Coupe Viersitzer 1 of 1 (4 door ?)

More London-Sydney info.

Hugh, I chased up my mate and he has provided some details on his ownership.
I thought you might be interested and the info will add to your fantastic database.

Yes, it was the green car...hiding in the panel shop.

( not shouting ) but READ THE ATTACHED LINK (carsonline)..it has articles/photos/spec AND NUMBERS for the car.

Here is an edited version of Sean's reply.

"My Porsche was the Edgar Hermann one, engine No. was 908058, I had my only bingle ever in it in
1984 when a dopey woman made a right turn against two lanes of traffic at South Road in Drouin, I
was in the left lane slightly behind a Toyota Crown, when suddenly just after the lights changed, she
appeared directly in front of me - I was probably doing around 10-15 mph. Some slight consolation
when the cops charged her with failing to give way, of which she was duly convicted. Didn't do much
for the car though. I sold it to a mate of mine, John Armitage, who was going to do it up and get it
back into London to Sydney trim, however John became ill shortly after buying the car, and I heard it
spent a fair amount of time in a panel beater's somewhere, just hiding in a corner.

I think Phil Bernadou bought it and ended up returning it to London to Sydney specs, however he had
to have the roll cage/kangaroo cage made up from drawings and pictures, as the original/s were
scrapped, although I think the Reg Mort (who had/s the Sazada car) would probably still have the
cage in his shed, I tied to get him to sell it to me in the late 1970s, but he wouldn't part with it.
There is a pretty detailed account of the car on the internet check this link out."

(Phil Bernadou was obviously selling the car at this time..hence the advert)

http://carsonline.com.au/bernadou.html

Hope this adds to the interest
Cheers
Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by peekaboo

HughH ,

I wonder if any of these Prototype 1967 - on body numbers correspond to any of the chassis numbers used for rallying , that your looking for/at ? :

(Supplied by ST Man . Thank you by the way , this was very interesting) :

Body No Year Model Chassis Number Number Produced
320-001 1967 911 S (Versuch) 1 of 9
320-002 1967 911 S (Versuch) 2 of 9
320-003 1967 911 S (Versuch) 3 of 9
320-004 1967 911 S (Versuch) 4 of 9
320-005 1967 911 S (Versuch) 5 of 9
320-006 1967 911 S (Versuch) 6 of 9
320-007 1967 911 S (Versuch) 7 of 9
320-008 1967 911 S (Versuch) 8 of 9
320-009 1967 911 S (Versuch) 9 of 9
320-010 1969 911 S (Versuch) 119300001 (?) 1 of 2
320-011 1969 911 S (Versuch) 119300002 1 of 2
320-012
320-013
320-014
320-015
320-016
320-017
320-018
320-019
320-020 1967 Coupe Viersitzer 1 of 1 (4 door ?)

---

Peekaboo

i thought about that but dont think it would be the case (however I dont know)

these numbers seem to have been used for special prototypes etc and IF they were later renumbered would have likely had very low numbers on them like Leon's one in SA or the one now discovered in the UK or would have run the numbers listed (some le mans cars seem to have been built up on "13xxx" replacement shells and are shown with that number.)

the rally cars all seem to have their chassis numbers listed and, apart from the 1970 ones, none are extreme low numbers. Therefore it would be safe to assume that in most cases they came off the production line at an early stage and then were transformed.

at least one of the low number 1970 cars (9110300002) is well known and there are no indications (that I have seen) that it has any special numbers apart from the recorded chassis numbers

also given these cars mainly needed to pass homologation and scrutineering at events it is hard to see how a strange chassis number could have slipped through and not be known about.

Thanks Bob

that is about as i thought it. It is interesting to fill in the gaps with people's first hand memories though

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by varunan123

Harry

Here is the thread i had on the demister panels used in early cars.They can be purchased on rally websites or sometimes on ebay.Also,shows the interior of i believe the 66 monte car.

raj

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...Demister-panel

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1980230...n/photostream/

---

thanks Raj,

My friend has one on his mini rally car, but he didnt install it, someone who had it before hand did. I have looked around a bit but have not been able to find one. if you can pm me any leads on where to go or what to search for that would be greatly appreciated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by varunan123

Hugh


I have been thinking about this,do you have any thoughts on the 911/30 engine specification across different models and different engine type(serial numbers),homologation and the 68 sports manual.I am a little confused.If i remember correctly the sports manual and parts list suggested certain items could not be used on the 911,911S as in the T or the L.I don't remember exactly but does it all ad up.

raj

---

Raj
I am not sure if i am completely off-base here but i think Bryce was correct with his post on page one of this thread. The table shows engine type "911/30" for both the 1968 2.0 911S rally and the 1969 2.0 911S rally.

I think they are both typos in the book and should be "901/30".

For a start I don't think 911/xx engine types came in until the 1970 MY. However that still leaves your real question about the engine type number being the same over different models and years etc.

My understanding that this is possible as I thought the 901/30 designation was the factory fitting of the "competition or sports kit 1" (and possibly sports kit 2) that could be fitted on an 2000S engine for group 3 (911T / 911S) and the 2000R engine for group 2 (911 / 911L) - the "Rally" engine. This included all the good bits that had been homologated for the group 2 "rally" engine and took the power up to a claimed 170hp as shown in the table and maybe the bits that were not legal for road use without a special permit (sports kit 2) which supposedly added another 5hp.

However i have also seen it referred to as just the 150hp rally kit for the 911L.

Looking at where it is mentioned, on the 1967 911S 2.0 Rally, as well as the two mentioned above, it is entirely reasonable to argue that the engine spec / type remained essentially the same over the 3 years - despite quite different engine number sequences. My reading of the table suggests that is a correct assumption.

Also mention has been made in the past of just 28 901/30 engines being made in the 38800xx series in 1968, but IF the designation only meant the full rallye and sport kit were fitted I cant see why factory engines in the 960xxx range in 1967 and the 408xxxx range in 1968 and possibly 1969 could not have had the same designation or engine type. Obviously the "388" engines were special build ones and identified by their serial number as well as type number.

Frere's book only identifies the 1967 911S 2.0 rally and then the 1970 2.2 Rally. This suggests that the 1968 and 1969 "Rally" cars were essentially the same as the 1967 ones apart from obvious bodywork changes and serial number. However he does not show the 901/30 designation as a "racing" engine in his tables, perhaps providing support to my view that it may only signify the addiotion of the "sports kit" which he details in the general text, and says could have been fitted to all cars in the range.

Perhaps someone on the board with a more detailed knowledge of these competition engines could enlighten us on this.

Raj

i agree about it being confusing.....and wonder if that is an accident or deliberate.

I think option 9552 and 9553 are mentioned in the sports purpose book though and i have seen reference to 901/30 in another publication from then which i cant find at present.

this is what i have against those option numbers

9552 For 911 L only Group 2 homologation package, Recaro
seats, stabiliser bars, Koni shocks, 2000R 901/30 engine
(150 hp), light flywheel and racing clutch, Dunlop
SP tires, 911 S combination gauge, light weight bumper
and rubber mats replacing carpet.

9553 For 911T only Group 3 homologation package, Recaro
(choice of bucket or competition seat), no underside
sealing, light weight sound proofing, light weight front
bumper, bumper trim and over rider deleted, simplified
interior trim including light weight door panels, back
seats removed along with, ashtray, cigar lighter, interior
lights and sun visors, leather steering wheel, halogen headlights,
2000S 901/02 engine (160 hp), lightweight flywheel
and racing clutch, reinforced engine mountings,
911S combination gauge, competition kit 1 (+10 hp), 5
speed gearbox, stabilisers front and rear, Koni shocks, ventilated
discs front and rear, Dunlop SP tires, lowered chassis,
unpolished Fuchs wheels


So the 9552 seems to reference 901/30 2000R engine as a group 2 homologation package but the 9553 group 3 homologation package shows a 901/02 2000S engine type.


that is fine for the 911L Trans am cars and the 911L rally cars that Thomas has provided so much information on, but as we know the cars in the table are neither - they are 67, 68 and 69 S's with S chassis numbers and apparently S engine numbers and it does not explain why they should be called 901/30 rather than 901/02

i suppose ONE explanation could be that the numbers there for 68 and 69 were not just a simple typo of 911 instead of 901 but completely wrong (but the 1967 cars still don't fit in under this explanation as they would need 388 engines and they have 960 and 961 engines according to the table.)

Hugh,

Had to bump your excellent thread here with this picture off of DDK. Rare glimpse of the elusive 69 Acropolis cars

Large higher res can be found here:
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/vie...211&start=9405

Attachment 281938

great thread, thank you.

Hi,
my name is Fred and i'm new to this forum. I'm from Stuttgart, longterm-member of the "slowly sideways" group (http://www.slowlysideways.com/) and actually try to investigate more details about the 1967/68 Porsche 911 works rally entries (Elford, Waldegaard, Toivonen, Zasada etc.).

So, of course i came across this forum and first thing to do is to praise this definitely helpful and interesting thread.

After owning and running several early Porsche rally cars over the past 25 years, for my next project i chose to recreate one of the Elford 1967/68 Monte cars (preferrably 1968) in the best possible way in terms of originality - that's in few words the motive behind this attempt and any information is welcome.

I.e. does anyone know the correct VIN of Elford's 1968 Monte-winning car (S-C 9166) which seems to be a key to any proper information ?

What was the colour ? I guess it was Polo-Rot or Blutorange as i'm quite sure they used something from the standard colour range. In MY 1967 only Polo-Rot (polored) was standard - this seems correct for the 1967 car S-YS 847. From MY 1969 Polo-Rot was skipped as a standard option and only Blutorange (Tangerine 6809) was available - correct for the 69 works rally cars S-L 2263 ff. In MY 1968 both shades of bright red were listed as standard colours. But unfortunately all old colour-pics from S-C 9166 that i've seen so far (including old originals) have somehow faded and make it really difficult to tell.

I also asked some friend working at Porsche Museum. As it seems they are willing to help but even Porsche people at Zuffenhausen have to know the VIN (already wondered that they obviously don't know it themselves) as a link to the production sheet in order to find out the correct colour code.

Anybody out there who can help with this ?

Thanks+Regards
Fred

Hi Fred,
Welcome.

The 68 Monte cars were Polo Red. So were the 69 Monte cars. 69 was a transition year for factory competition 911 car color, as the 69 factory Acropolis cars were Tangerine/blutorange, as well as the 84 Hours of the 'ring cars.

The Elford car VIN was either: 11820433, 472, 702, or 765, according to the link below. Someone may have narrowed it down further elsewhere on this site.

It was one of the five werks rally cars (see first page of this thread).
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...l=1#post556889

Hi Fred, and welcome.

I think (an educated guess) that S C 9166 was 118 2 0472 and was 6809 Blutorange. I say educated guess because I have seen some Kardexes for some of the cars around that time and there were a couple with "WE" as the handler (ie factory cars) and the first owner being "PRESSE" . I believe the werks cars were owned that way but so were the cars in the press fleet. 0472 is one of those cars along with 118 2 0433, but that was hellelfenb 6804 which makes it a possibility to be S C 9167, the Zasada car.

There were other cars around that time that had both WE and PRESSE on the Kardex. However both of these two cars mentioned above ALSO had other wording on the warranty part saying something like the engine has "increased power" and there is "no warranty" on it, with these entries dated early January 1968. I cant see any other reason for such things to be on the warranty card if these cars were not the werks team cars.

The Toivonen car 118 2 0455 was definitely polorot 6802.

If you have museum contacts maybe this will help give a lead to find out for sure. Let us know how you get on.

Cool site, Fred!

Any more info on this?...

http://www.slowlysideways.com/en/rallye-cars?id=118&p=1

I normally defer to Hugh on anything historically arcane on these cars but there is a faithful reproduction of S C 9166 out there. The car is clearly Polo Red.

I saw/sat in it at Amelia 2012. The owners did some painstaking research on this car in their project, so I am thinking they were sure of the color.

Fred, maybe you want to reach out to them and explain what you are trying to do. They could help with all sorts of details I imagine.

Attachment 355606

Attachment 355607

Attachment 355608

Attachment 355609

Attachment 355610

Concours info states "finished with ruby red Deletion paint, clear coated"... is that the same as Porsche Polo Red? Just asking for clarification...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by beh911

I normally defer to Hugh on anything historically arcane on these cars but there is a faithful reproduction of S C 9166 out there. The car is clearly Polo Red.

I saw/sat in it at Amelia 2012. The owners did some painstaking research on this car in their project, so I am thinking they were sure of the color.

Fred, maybe you want to reach out to them and explain what you are trying to do. They could help with all sorts of details I imagine.

Attachment 355606

Attachment 355607

Attachment 355608

Attachment 355609

Attachment 355610

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StephenAcworth

Concours info states "finished with ruby red Deletion paint, clear coated"... is that the same as Porsche Polo Red? Just asking for clarification...

---

It's not the same and I should have read the placard in my own pic before posting. I've heard from a few more authoritative than me (not difficult btw :) ) saying Tangerine was more likely the color.

Does beg the question why the clone is done in red and the incorrect red for the model year.

Hi there, thanks to all for your instant replies.

Well, to begin with the Safari car, the one from the link (No. 41 / S-AR 7909) and also it's sister car (No. 19 / S-AR 7910) are both owned by my garage mate Uwe. They are the real thing, both being originals and Uwe restored them to virtually every detail to their specs from the East African Safary Rallye 1974 (Kühne & Nagel). The same cars had already been used the year before in the 1973 issue of EASR carrying yellow Bosch livery. Drivers in 1973+74 were Waldegaard, Herrmann, Zasada. After restorations were finished in 2005 and 2012 Björn drove his ex-cars many times in slowly sideways events over here in Germany (i.e. Eifel Rallye Festival) before his sudden death in summer 2014. Some weeks ago one of Uwe's cars (No. 19) had been to this big Porsche meeting in Monterey and it still is in the States being on display in the Kühne & Nagel U.S. Headquarter (don't remember where this is, have to ask Uwe).

Concerning the replica car from Amelia island (i had seen some pics in the web before). Well it's definitely a very nice car - no question. I love the old reg.-plates which definitely look like the originals, though this registration is with me - actually on my trailer and waiting to be switched over to the proper car once it'll be finished. But i think that several details are wrong (green gauges from MY67, twin spark ignition, early door handles, later Recaro sport seats, etc.). Ruby-red (as written) however seems definitely not correct to me, though the shade of red on the car looks much brighter - more like polo-red. But as the possible VIN's (1180...) of Vic's car indicate a MY68 911T, ruby-red (it's a darker shade of red deriving from the late 356 period and used only on earlier 911s) should be wrong.

I agree that Toivonen's 68 Monte car (No 116 with the oval export plates) seems to be polo-red. And on most period photos, by comparing, Vic's car looks just the shade brighter which points to Blutorange. To my opinion it can be limited to polored (6802) or tangerine (6809). As Hugh suggests that eventually S-C 9166 was 118 2 0472 and was 6809 Blutorange i will leave this VIN (and the other 3) with the Museum people and wait what they can report. And there is another clue pointing to Blutorange: i have a copy of "Auto Motor und Sport" magazine issue from March 1968 when they test-drove S-C 9166 on roads in and around Stuttgart. It's all black/white pics in the article but in the text they mention the colour as Blutorange. But i want to find as much evidence as possible in advance to avoid finding out later that my car got the the wrong colour - i would hate it.

Will keep you informed about all progress and kindly invite any further opinions on this matter.

Regards
Fred

Apparently ;) ... So here we probably are, with the 118 2 0472 !

Attachment 355668

[QUOTE=indienestmonnom;838632]Apparently ;) ... So here we probably are, with the 118 2 0472 !

Bingo - the difference in colour shades between Monte-plate and car seems to indicate Blutorange quite clearly. I agree with that.

Attachment 355686

Especially when you look at an original period Monte plate - it's just "normal" red, not particularly dark.

Hallo Fred, ich habe einen Scheel wie er im 67er Monte Auto als Beifahrersitz verbaut war (nicht zu verkaufen), aber falls Du Infos brauchst kann ich da evtl. helfen.
Falls Du irgendwelche AMS Artikel brauchst - ich habe 1953-1990 hier.
Grüße
Uli

Hi Uli, Danke für Dein freundliches Angebot - komme sicherlich noch irgendwann drauf zurück.

In order to not becoming suspicuous of conquering this thread and converting it to German language: Uli (living nearly in the neighbourhood) offered information on the original Scheel co-driver seat and on his collection of period issues of AMS magazine.

Gruß/Regards
Fred

It IS a great thread Eric …….. Thanks

Yes lets refresh this pls

as I just started to restore a original car 1 out of 6 original rally cars from 67
I will drop more info , We basic just started , I just have to clear with the owner or best if he chip in some history as we go along with the build

but its basic a 1 owner car and a tru beat up survivor :-)

M

Wonderful!

John

Subscribed

Marek, looks to be Finnish car (at least back then). :)
I actually just saw factory rally engine (without chassis) from 67 couple of weeks ago which have been here since new.

too bad that fred is obviously no longer registered here. the two safari cars from uwe k. would be an (exciting) story of its own. especially the second car, which by a huge coincidence found its way to uwe (he once told me the story ...) I was able to help him with the restoration of this car years ago: he already had a complete safari and therefore also "pattern" of the recaro shells to be installed. so I was able to find two other suitable recaros for him at the time. as far as i know there were only three 2.7 safari cars but not so solid for complete cars.

best

uwe

Attachment 528428

Attachment 528429I am about to put this car back together for a friend,73 rs touring converted by the factory for Sir peter moon Private/semi works entry etc.
The car will be for sale after its put back together,Or as is now,present owner has had it for 40 odd years,all complete bar the front roo bar, matching numbers etc
Going to be a great project to rebuild and a fun drive at the end of it.
Pgw 105L

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by indienestmonnom

Apparently ;) ... So here we probably are, with the 118 2 0472 !

Attachment 355668

---

Is there now a definitive proof that #210 was 118 2 0472?

I have a kardex for 118 2 0472 that shows it as blutorange, it being a werks owned competition car, and it having engine modifications to increase power on 17 January 1968. ie just before the Monte on 19 January.

I don't think that any other car but Elford's S C 9166 will fit that description. So while I don't have a factory document showing him entered in the 1968 Monte Carlo with that vin written against it I think that is about as good a proof as is possible

Another kardex I have for 118 2 0433 shows it being white with the same engine modification on the same day so I believe that is Zasada's SC 9167

In addition the recent book on Porsche's at the Monte Carlo shows those vins against the respective cars and also 118 2 0455 against the Toivonen car. On its kardex it does not have the same notation about engine modifications but does have another stamped one the same as customer competition cars had when they were sent to Werk1 for "tuning" before delivery

As close as a definitive proof as you can get, then. :cool:
Is there a way to have access to the Stuttgart area registration files?

Next question is: Where are these cars, now? ;)

A favorite picture of S-C 9166 while at the factory getting ready for Monte. Lots of details in the picture.

That is an AWESOME pic....can't make out the brand of smokes in his left hand....I don't think you will find many drivers today attending to decal placement.....Vic is THE MAN!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dmill

can't make out the brand of smokes in his left hand

---

Gauloises .......Attachment 538360

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by uai

Gauloises .......Attachment 538360

---

the healthy ones, non filter...;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by haul

the healthy ones, non filter...;)

---

I used to smoke those when I lived in Bologna...definitely has an OOMPH!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HughH

1970 911S 2.2 / 2.3 “Rally”



7 werks cars
9110300001 engine S-T 5704 first event:1970 Monte Carlo; car #6
9110300002 engine S-T 5705 first event: 1970 Monte Carlo; car #2
9110300003 engine S-T 5706 first event: 1970 Monte Carlo; car #11
9110300949 engine S-R 2970 first event: 1970 Austrian Alpine Rally; car #3
9110300950 engine 6301281 S-R 2971 first event: 1970 Swedish Rally; car #9
9110301127 engine 6301557 S-U 9370 first event: 1970 Austrian Alpine Rally; car #4
9110300102 engine possibly S-T 5158 first event: 1970 Swedish Rally; car #2

The first 3 were Tangerine, the others Orange
Only 6 engine numbers shown.
6300159; 6301294; 6301281; 6301557; 6308505; 6308506.

9110301127 is known to have used 6301557 on the Austrian Alpine rally

However likely that some cars used multiple engines, 1127 did.

Attachment 208092


9110300001. S-T 5704. 1970 Monte Carlo; car #6 Waldergard / Helmer

Attachment 208093


9110300002 S-T 5705: 1970 Monte Carlo; car #2 Larrousse / Gelin

Attachment 208094


9110300003 S-T 5706: 1970 Monte Carlo; car #11 Åke Andersson/Bo Thorselius


Attachment 208095


9110300949 S-R 2970: 1970 Austrian Alpine Rally; car #3 Waldegaard/Helmer

Attachment 208096


9110300950 S-R 2971: 1970 Swedish Rally; car #9 Andersen/Torzelius



continued next post............

---

In relation as 9110300001.
Attachment 573495
This page attaches the license plate D-ED 71 to this chassis number. Seeing the post. Is the page wrong? Is it the same vehicle?
https://www.porscheregister.com/MC73-075#details

https://www.ewrc-results.com/profile...nfred-gudladt/

Attachment 573496
https://www.9tro.com/(X(1)S(um30zgvp...#lg=1&slide=10

+

Attachment 573517
Attachment 573518
Same car...same license plate. Another Kit fitted later? Or different cars and same license plate?

Baudett
I do not know for certain about the #37 car in 1973 with the plates WZ-JW 1driven by Walter and Leir HOWEVER the photo of the car with those plates in the 1970 Monte (car 118) driven by Walter and rack CANNOT be 911 030 0001 as in that year it was the Waldegaard werks car #6
That car (0001) is / or at least was owned by Feustel as shown in the article in the link you gave to 9tro.com and at least at that stage has the plates S T 5704 back on it

I always have believed that after being used by the factory (as a recce car and possibly a test car after the 1970 Monte Carlo) it was sold and ended up in the UK initially registered as 251LP at the Porsche dealership at Denham and then as PMO220 for John Sprinzel in the RAC Welsh rally of 1972 - his last rally where he retired the car (and possibly others earlier). At that stage it still was Tangerine as used by the Werks team

Therefore I dont think it was the orange car shown as #75 in 1973 (D ED 71) OR WZ-JW 1 but without knowing the identity of those cars I cannot be certain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HughH

Baudett
I do not know for certain about the #37 car in 1973 with the plates WZ-JW 1driven by Walter and Leir HOWEVER the photo of the car with those plates in the 1970 Monte (car 118) driven by Walter and rack CANNOT be 911 030 0001 as in that year it was the Waldegaard werks car #6
That car (0001) is / or at least was owned by Feustel as shown in the article in the link you gave to 9tro.com and at least at that stage has the plates S T 5704 back on it

I always have believed that after being used by the factory (as a recce car and possibly a test car after the 1970 Monte Carlo) it was sold and ended up in the UK initially registered as 251LP at the Porsche dealership at Denham and then as PMO220 for John Sprinzel in the RAC Welsh rally of 1972 - his last rally where he retired the car (and possibly others earlier). At that stage it still was Tangerine as used by the Werks team

Therefore I dont think it was the orange car shown as #75 in 1973 (D ED 71) OR WZ-JW 1 but without knowing the identity of those cars I cannot be certain

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I'll try to see it better. The name, the owner... I thought it was a private person... I see that you have a "historic" car shop... and my question is if the procedure is normal in a car as important as this?

“As anything can happen in competitive motorsport, we made the decision to remove and preserve irreplaceable original parts such as the roll cage, seats, wiring harness, bumpers, doors, front and rear lids, and use replica parts made from original materials so that the originals will not be destroyed in case of an accident”. I have explained.
Any information about that first event in Mallorca? Any image?

interesting fragment about the vehicle and its history:
"“Fortunately, because we started off in Scandinavia, we had to pass Stuttgart during the concentration run on the way to the South of France,” explained Björn. “This gave the racing department the chance to raise the car a few centimeters and reset the suspension geometry to suit. Set up to my liking, the car was very fast. We had a clean run at all the stages and we won the rally. The 911S/T was a relatively simple and very strong car and I never had a mechanical failure.”

https://www.excellence-mag.com/issues/227/articles/legendary?page=2

+

Porscheregistrer as a page belongs to Porsche? Or is it "an independent page"?
"PorscheRegister.com is an initiative from and for Porsche enthusiasts and Porsche Classic Center Gelderland in the Netherlands.

You can list your car(s) but also become active in a missing registry. It is a joint effort of 'friends of the brand' and owners.
Not all models are currently in the registry. For now you can only list the cars displayed on the home page. If you have suggestions please contact us."

What wheels were used on the early rally cars? Did they use 904 wheels or all steel wheels? I`ve got a couple 904 wheels and would like to find a home for them, I can`t use them.

Hugh,

I found these pictures of UL-Y 826 on Motorsport Images and wanted to add them to your thread. I am assuming they include pictures of the car before the 1968 East African Safari as well as a shot during the rally.

Other cars pictured include a right hand drive 911 with a plate KKZ733 and a right hand drive 356. One picture also includes a blue 550A.

https://www.motorsportimages.com/pho...porsche+safari


-Eric

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Blue car is a 550A

Thanks for the correction. It looks like it is

550A-0121

"Later in the decade, the Spyder was sold to Gordon Crow, a dealer in Nairobi, and he repainted the car blue and entered numerous local events. During this time, the 550A was seen in 1969 by Porsche engineer and soon to be factory driver, Jürgen Barth."

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...ky-racing-past

More pictures of the shop, confirmed to be that of Gordon C.R. Crow can be found in the Out of Africa thread, including another appearance by KKZ773.

https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...l=1#post734135

1970 Rally Poland - that was 911 030 0950 Zasada Porsche S-R 2971


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B70046 seems to be 307498: https://www.early911s.de/en/cars/sal...lye-coup%C3%A9

andy

Interesting appearance by a Kenyan-registered early 911 above. Do we know any more about KKZ733 or any other early RHD cars that found their way to that country? I am aware of Bantam's 911 TR, but it starts to look as if there might have been others. Thanks, Robert