VIN 9113300961 - Buyer Beware!

1973 911S Coupe. Aubergine/Black. 70K miles (reportedly)

If/when this car pops up for sale again....... beware!

It was advertised in Hemming's recently as "numbers matching, 70K original miles, very clean and correct."

It was then verbally and through e-mail described to me by the current owner as a "rust-free, never hit, excellent condition" example. He volunteered that the car had been repainted in the mid 90's "to a very high standard". He's owned the car only since 2/04, so I tracked down its previous owner, and he also described it as rust free, etc., etc., etc.

I had a PPI done on it yesterday, and after only about 30 minutes into the process, the shop owner called me to report what he had found so far, and to ask me if I wanted him to continue with the comprehensive inspection I had commissioned him to do. Here's what he reported; rusted undercarriage, below average repaint with overspray everywhere, and numerous oil leaks. All of this was in addition to the fact that I had already uncovered; although the car originally had a Lasur Blue interior, it's now fitted with a black leather interior.

I've purchased many vehciles in my 52 years, to include a Porsche now and then, and I can honestly say most of them turned out to be as good or better than how the sellers described them. It disturbs and disappoints me that there are people out there that deliberately mislead and attempt to swindle prospective buyers.

I'm just thankful that I had the PPI done!

The 73 S in question belongs to a good friend of mine. I know the car and would like to clarfiy some of the information you're sharing. I was also the one who took it to the shop in Palo Alto for the PPI. I can only say that you were either misled or not given accurate description and information.

The "rusted undercarriage" you described was listed as "surface rust" by the shop. I had them elaborate on this and they proceeded to show me that the "surface rust" they listed were on the transmission mounts & bolts/washers, rear sway bar, hardware mounts and fasteners. All of which are exposed to the elements and subject to surface rust. The floorpan still has the original undercoating and far from being a "rusted undercarriage". Whatever surface rust there was in the undercarriage was very minimal and would be easy to wire brush away and painted.

As for the paint. I'm not sure describing it as "below average paint" would do justice to this one. The shop only listed it as "repaint" and made no comment that it was "below average". With the exception of a couple of minor spots, I couldn't and wouldn't fault the finish which is, in my humble opinion, is pretty darn good.

Numerous oil leaks, yes I did see a couple, one was coming from the valve covers and the other was a small leak from the left chain housing. But that's all. I guess anything more than one would qualify as "numerous".

The bottom line is that his 73 S is not as what you described to be. Its not perfect and has some minor issues which are not hard to fix or correct. The only siginificant one that I would take exception to are the aftermarket heat exchangers which for about $800, should be replaced with SSI.

I've been around early 911s for a long time and I've seen cars as you described and cars as this one. I can tell you its closer to what I'm describing than how it was described to you. The previous owner also will attest to this as will any one who will have the opportunity to see it for themselves.

Your accusation that you were deliberately misled is unwarranted and unfounded. No attempt was made to misrepresent this car by the seller, there was no malicious intent to defraud or deceive you or anyone. I will attest to that.

I will be listing this 73 S for sale as requested by the owner. It will be described in detail and I will answer all inquiries. I will provide digital images for interested serious buyers and make necessary arrangement for its viewing and inspections.

My reputation will be at stake and for those who know me, know full well that I will not compromise my integrity and credibility for anything. We'll find a good home for this 73 S eventually.

Good luck with finding yours.


Cris Huergas

Hmmm, interesting.

I have done PPIs in the UK and I recently called a client while I was inspecting a car to ask whether he wanted me to continue with an inspection as I had found a couple of issues with a car advertised as an original RHD 73 911S Targa. I had discoeverd that the car was originally a US car, that had been converted to RHD using 911SC parts. Of course he stopped me and saved himself some money, but I feel that it would have been wrong to continue and charge him the full amount.

If the PPIer mentioned above has saved 87-930 from buying a car that wasn't to his standard, then he has done 87-930 a service, and hopefully given someone else a chance to buy what is a rare, even if it has a few issues.

Now. What are the details on the car as I could be interested in it myself.

I doubt that 930 is totally and individually at fault here. Maybe he shoudn't have come here with a severe report. Maybe he should have just gone on his merry ass way. But, he was given some info and he ran with it

Sounds like the shop was not quite perfectly objective in it's editorializing on the report. One has to wonder who actually first used the terms "undercarrige" and "numerous." I would start there with the blame for miscommunication.

The interior is still in question.

I have to wonder if the PPI shop was familiar with early Porsches. Some surface rust somewhere (I don't think any unrestored early cars can literally claim "no rust") and a minor oil leak (or two) are par for the course, as we all know.

I've found it's helpful to communicate your expectations on the PPI. For example, if you were looking for a concours level car - the shop did exactly the right thing. I suspect you are not expecting a showcar - maybe the shop wasn't on the same page?

Was it a shop specializing in Porsches? (without naming).

Yes, they specialize in Porsche, and the gentleman that performed the inspection has in-depth knowledge of the early models.

Bottom line, he was commissioned as a neutral 3rd party to unbiasdly and objectively report the condition of the vehicle to me, which he did.

I informed him of the vehicle's condition as it had been described to me....."rust free, repainted to a very high standard, and one small oil leak that can easily be repaired by replacing the valve covers with trubo covers".

Should there be any question as to his integrity, how would one explain the fact that shortly after starting the inspection procedure, he stopped and called to report his findings to that point, and to ask if he should continue with the inspection - for additional time and cost?

At some point you just want the straight scoop on the condition. A rusted undercarriage is quite a bit different than a solid pan with surface rust where undercoating may have peeled off. Hopefully the shop doing the PPI was more descriptive than what has been stated here.

I'm still trying to picure an Aubergine car that originally had a blue interior :eek:

Quote:

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Originally posted by sundaypunch


I'm still trying to picure an Aubergine car that originally had a blue interior :eek:

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I looked in Hemmings and I couldn't find it in the May issue. So, I don't know what it said, but I don't see that it was resprayed to the original color from reading here.

So, it was most likely not Aubergine/blue. But hey, in the early 70's, you never knew. :D Mavbe it belong to Deep Purple or Moby Grape. :rolleyes:

I spoke with Palm Beach and recommended the shop. The shop is quite familiar with early cars. I know at least 4 guys who take their early cars to D&M, two of them for over 20 years. Dieter is a stickler for correctness and details, maybe a bit on the anal side (which as an owner is a good thing). Every time I'm in there there are some absolutely prisitne speedsters, early Mercedes and always a bunch of 911s. I spoke to him today about the car in question, but only briefly. He said it had rust and leaks, but didn't seem to be horrible. To be fair, it was a 60 second conversation (so don't make buying decisions based on it).

I think the issue here is communication. Frank's expectations from his conversations with the current seller (not sure if htat was you Cris, he mentioned someone named Joe?), and with John Audette (email I believe) led him to expect something different. I was planning on checking out the car myself while it was at Dieter's, but it was the day my son had some major surgery.

Long distance buying is always sketchy. It helps to have friends on other coasts. Certainly if Cris is putting his name on the car, I would expect it to be correctly described (good or bad). As of my last conversation with Frank, Cris' name hadn't come up. Too bad.

There will be other cars, and other buyers. That said, let's remember that PPI's on these early cars can be a bit subjective. Lord knows that my (ex) mechanic that took care of my 993 missed a ton of crap on my car before I drove it away.. Thanks to Dieter (and some additional $$), my car is on the mend.

Cris - I'll give you a call. I'm probably heading over to EASY tomorrow or Thursday to find some front sway bars.

The problem with pre purchase inspections from a sellers perspective is that the inspector often has his own vehicles to represent as a better alternative.

Rather than "let the buyer beware", E Regnat Luscus is a better approach in the Porsche world - among the blind the one eyed man is king. I therefore tend to favor the comments of knowledgable enthusiasts that have open and bright eyes over mechanics or sellers. Absent having a circle of friends who know everything there is to know about early Porsche's I work hard to develop a relationship with mechanics who specialize in these cars but don't have cars for sale. Valhalla Automotive in Layfayette California is a good resource in this regard.

Michael in San Francisco

I can second everything that yoprup said about this shop.

I know the shop very well in question and can vouch for their integrity- there is no secondary gain or motives here for them to give the car a bad inspection.

I live on the pennisula and last year after taking my car out of storage researched and interviewed quite a few shops on the pennisula before chosing them. I have not been disappointed since in the 10years I have owned my car this is the best it has run.

That said, after reading the various post about this car, I think it might come down to an issue of misunderstanding not misrepresentation between the various parties.

I don't think there's ever a time when a sellers description matches a buyer's expectation - especially after seeing a few jpegs. Obviously - this is the reason for a PPI.

I did a long distance PPI on my car, and quite a few negative things were found. All relatively minor and fixable - but I was ready to walk away (keep in mind, I had my heart set on a 2.4 silver S with sports and sunroof - so it would have been hard to walk away from a matching example). I renegotiated a price $5k lower than the original agreed price after adding up the cost of fixing everything.

I guess my point here is an independent PPI can be a great negotiating tool - not just an all or nothing thing. I would have been screwed financially without one - and having documentation on costs to fix PPI issues was a huge help in getting the price down.

Then again... I've since put more than $5k into it - and could easily follow that with another $15K. But we all know how that goes!