Original headlight Bucket 65 vs. 67 vs. 68 vs. Factory replacement

There is still some confusion with me about the headlight buckets.
Which I need to use for my 303381 BY65 MY66 car one of the first with 2 screw horn grills.
I have read some threads / see pictures / see original unrestored cars / restored cars with original and factory replacement fenders.
The question is about the amount/position of the holes in the headlight bucket.
And which configuration was used when? Because have been told there is a different between 65 / 66-67 / 68 / factory replacement

Correct me if I am wrong:
- Centre big hole for wiring harness
- Left from centre small hole for the cable to go to the turn signals
- Right from center small hole for the drain.

I hope anyone can help me with a clear answer.
Let me introduce you the different pictures I have taken and also the information that have been told to mee (can be wrong):

1. Original restored BY1965 MY1965 front fender with 4 tabs for 4 screw horn grill / wide fender lip
You see 3 holes (wiring harness/cable turn signal/drainhole)
Attachment 408369

2. Original unrestored 302180 BY1965 MY1966 front fender with 4 tabs for 4 screw horn grill / wide fender lip
Can't see in the headlight bucket. The car was on Interclassic Maastricht. Have taken pictures in the front wheel arch. Here you can see 3 holes (pipe for wiring harness/hole cable turn signal/drainhole).
You can see that there is a drain hole because of the rubber thing that covers the drain hole.
Attachment 408370
Attachment 408371
Attachment 408372

3. Original '67car front fender with 2 tabs for 2 screw horn grill / wide fender lip
You see 2 holes (wiring harness/cable turn signal)
Attachment 408373

4. Original '68car front fender with 2 tabs for 2 screw horn grill / thin fender lip
You see 3 holes (wiring harness/cable turn signal/drainhole)
It seems that from 68 this was normal?
Attachment 408374

5. Factory replacement fender for 65/66 car with 2 tabs for 2 screw horn grill / wider fender lip
You see 3 holes (wiring harness/cable turn signal/drainhole)
Attachment 408375

Your first photo, "1. Original restored BY1965 MY1965 front fender" is not correct. It is a later replacement fender (or perhaps an original fender and replacement light bucket?). The 64-67 fenders did not have the four tabs inside the headlight bucket.

Bill,

People have told me that the 4 tabs are for the sealed beam headlights.
That Euro cars dont have these.
But the main question in this thread is what about the amount of holes?
Do you have a idea about that?

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Simmeth

Your first photo, "1. Original restored BY1965 MY1965 front fender" is not correct. It is a later replacement fender (or perhaps an original fender and replacement light bucket?). The 64-67 fenders did not have the four tabs inside the headlight bucket.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Winters

Bill,

People have told me that the 4 tabs are for the sealed beam headlights.
That Euro cars dont have these.
But the main question in this thread is what about the amount of holes?
Do you have a idea about that?

Thanks

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USA cars 64-67 also did not have these 4 tabs in the bucket.

The 64-67 USA cars used headlight assemblies similar to those in the 356 and Beetle. The four tabs appeared in 1968 when the USA cars went to the "sugar scoop" assemblies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Simmeth

USA cars 64-67 also did not have these 4 tabs in the bucket.

The 64-67 USA cars used headlight assemblies similar to those in the 356 and Beetle. The four tabs appeared in 1968 when the USA cars went to the "sugar scoop" assemblies.

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some 64 i have seen had 4 tabs (#113,#134 both hyper original cars)...definetly no replacement fenders on them...they had the early indicator buckets as well and those are somewhat different to the 65...nor replacement bowls...the tabs are different style than the later tabs



but this does not answer michaels question that i also want to have answered..also the number and shape of the indents changed

Late '65 build 912, 350943. In this picture, if you blow it up large enough, you can see the 3 digit ser # in the right headlight bucket, and you can also faintly see the two holes in the bottom, one which is larger for the cable and one which apparently still has the drain attached.

My current car, 456311 (mar '66) has a single hole for the cable exit to the signals and no hole for the drain. I suspect that these were replacement fenders though (a long time ago as new replacement fenders) as they are very clean inside. Car was restored by a big Palms Springs shop in the mid '80s, no expense spared.

SV

Attachment 408500

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moito

some 64 i have seen had 4 tabs (#113,#134 both hyper original cars)...definetly no replacement fenders on them...they had the early indicator buckets as well and those are somewhat different to the 65...nor replacement bowls...the tabs are different style than the later tabs



but this does not answer michaels question that i also want to have answered..also the number and shape of the indents changed

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Franz

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your theory about the tabs on very early cars. Those tabs did not appear until YM 1968 and at that time Porsche quit making fenders and headlight buckets without the tabs. I'll bet a PLINY that the red fender pictured in your post has a replacement bucket and they even went so far as to undercoat the bucket after installing it.
The bucket in Michael's original post described as #3 and the 2 buckets in Sterling's post are the only ones that are correct for a pre 68 car. They only came with 1 hole besides the tube for the wiring. My pictures are of a front fender that we saved the front portion. It appears to be a replacemnt fender from a long time ago and I believe the 2 smaller holes were put there by a PO for some unknown reason.
Bottom line: If it has tabs or evidence of them being there at some time, it ain't a 67 or earlier bucket

Regards

Jim

hi Jim(hi Bob)

even if it is very hard for me, i stand corrected...
i was aware that 64 cars should not have them thats why i had a very very close look at #113 to detect any signs of a fender or bowl replacement but i did not find any.same for 134.

but in this case trust your words(and bobs) more than my eyes.

off topic--after a long struggle with the austrian customs i finaly got your parcel today---mug is in one pice and i will have my first EASY coffee tomorrow morning.
will send you a pm regarding the extra webasto bit in a short.

franz

Jim,

Thanks for your post!
It becomes a little bit confusing for myself.
Because like you saw in my first post I have taken pictures of several kind of cars.

Jim, just asking it respectfully, you are almost 100% sure of that all the pre 68 cars had the same factory headlight bucket like your red headlight bucker (without the 2 tiny holes) which was :

a) without 4 tabs
b) with one larger hole and one smaller hole on the left of the larger hole.
c) no second smaller hole.

So that the headlight buckets with 1 large hole and 2 small holes are for cars 68 and later?

You can also see the embossed circles more at the top in the middle from the bucket and one just above the larger hole (this one you can't see it almost).
Better view is on #3 in my first post.
What were these 2 embossed circles for?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jim Breazeale

Franz

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your theory about the tabs on very early cars. Those tabs did not appear until YM 1968 and at that time Porsche quit making fenders and headlight buckets without the tabs. I'll bet a PLINY that the red fender pictured in your post has a replacement bucket and they even went so far as to undercoat the bucket after installing it.
The bucket in Michael's original post described as #3 and the 2 buckets in Sterling's post are the only ones that are correct for a pre 68 car. They only came with 1 hole besides the tube for the wiring. My pictures are of a front fender that we saved the front portion. It appears to be a replacemnt fender from a long time ago and I believe the 2 smaller holes were put there by a PO for some unknown reason.
Bottom line: If it has tabs or evidence of them being there at some time, it ain't a 67 or earlier bucket

Regards

Jim

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Winters

Jim,

Thanks for your post!
It becomes a little bit confusing for myself.
Because like you saw in my first post I have taken pictures of several kind of cars.

Jim, just asking it respectfully, you are almost 100% sure of that all the pre 68 cars had the same factory headlight bucket like your red headlight bucker (without the 2 tiny holes) which was :

a) without 4 tabs
b) with one larger hole and one smaller hole on the left of the larger hole.
c) no second smaller hole.

So that the headlight buckets with 1 large hole and 2 small holes are for cars 68 and later?

You can also see the embossed circles more at the top in the middle from the bucket and one just above the larger hole (this one you can't see it almost).
Better view is on #3 in my first post.
What were these 2 embossed circles for?

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Michael

I am never 100% sure about anything pertaining to Porsches, but I'm found to be right more often than wrong. I think the "embossed circles" are there to aid in the stamping process. Probably helps to stabilize the bucket in the die.
It appears that buckets made after 67 all have tabs and 2 holes along with the tube. Up to the 68YM fenders there is only one hole along with the tube. I'm still searching through my pictures for a picture of JK's headlight bucket from his original 66 (made in 65) 911. I've got it somewhere.

Regards

Jim

Attachment 408536

For reference, here is a picture of 304598 (June 1966 build) undergoing bare metal work. The fenders do not appear ever to have been off, and both buckets have the last three digits of the VIN stamped in them...

And here before media blasting...

Attachment 408537

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

BINGO!

Ciao

Jim

Found it! JK"s 66 (built in 65) original headlight bucket with original paint and zero rust or evidence of any repair. Notice where the paint stops

Regards

Jim

Thanks all for resolving this!
Also nice examples!

Jim, what do you want to say with 'notice where the paint stops?'
That these where painted when they were not attached at front fender?

About the "embossed circles" that are there to aid in the stamping process.
Are they convex or concave when you feel them inside the headlight bucket?
And is there anywhere some info about the sizes of them/distance between both/dinstance to top and large hole?
Why I am asking because our headlight bucket is not original and want to add these embossed holes to it.

Thanks for the help!

I'm sure that the fenders were painted on the car. This picture shows where Fritz hand painted black over the blue at the back of the fender. There is also hand painted black in the area behind the horn grille and in other places.
By the way, the dimples are convex.

Regards

Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Winters

Jim, what do you want to say with 'notice where the paint stops?'

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................

That are nice pictures!
So the fender for examples got a undercoat and then painted in the car color and in the back painted blck by hand?
Because on post 14 only the headlight bucket is in blueband the rest in undercoat of I see it correcr?
Did not knew that! Thanks for learning this!

Thanks for the information about the dimples!
Going to look over the forum for general measurement of these and spaces between.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jim Breazeale

I'm sure that the fenders were painted on the car. This picture shows where Fritz hand painted black over the blue at the back of the fender. There is also hand painted black in the area behind the horn grille and in other places.
By the way, the dimples are convex.

Regards

Jim

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So this is then correct for 456311 (march '66).

Attachment 408612

SV

Not really. The original connector and wiring has been replaced with a generic bulb connector from a Walmart. It will work just fine, though, and nobody will ever see it.

Regards

Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jim Breazeale

....and nobody will ever see it.

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but we all now know it....

I'll bet if you remove that tape you'll find cut wires that were just wrapped together and taped over. Usually a result of shops that wanted to remove the fender and didn't know how (or take the time) to remove the spades from the plug in order to remove the harness from the bucket.

Ha ha. This is what it looks like now. That was the "before" photo.

Attachment 408772

SV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Winters

Jim,

Thanks for your post!
It becomes a little bit confusing for myself.
Because like you saw in my first post I have taken pictures of several kind of cars.

Jim, just asking it respectfully, you are almost 100% sure of that all the pre 68 cars had the same factory headlight bucket like your red headlight bucker (without the 2 tiny holes) which was :

a) without 4 tabs
b) with one larger hole and one smaller hole on the left of the larger hole.
c) no second smaller hole.

So that the headlight buckets with 1 large hole and 2 small holes are for cars 68 and later?

You can also see the embossed circles more at the top in the middle from the bucket and one just above the larger hole (this one you can't see it almost).
Better view is on #3 in my first post.
What were these 2 embossed circles for?

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Here's a photo of my 911 #1744 clearly with 3 holes. Goes to show you that not everything is not absolutely consistent with these cars. Having said that, it's hard to imaging why they wouldn't have added the drain/vent to all headlight buckets, especially when they were added to the signal boxes.