Early S car vins put in a 912 restored and to be sold as an early S what do you do

[Longhood67]

advice ?

I am new I was visiting a friend, a painter who did the paint work for the shop. He told me the shop had taken the 911s Vins and cut them out of a heavily wrecked car and Re-tubbed (sic) into a 912 donor welding all the Vins in place. He showed me what the original car looked like maybe a telephone pole wrap?

He said it was common knowledge at the shop and was being sold to a collector or seller as a 911s

I got home and was having coffee with a friend and he is a restoration guru ( I am doing my first car )

I do not want to out someone but when I heard its worth $180K or more I thought about the guy who sent me fake fuchs for real ones

advice ?

[Hangman]

I am not legal expert, but I suspect the word "fraud" isn't too far from the truth here.

If it was cutting parts off a 912 to put on the 911S, I would say that was a restored 911S - cutting parts off the 911S and putting them on the 912, and saying as such, not the same. If you give someone a heart transplant, are they now the donor, or who they were prior?

I think you have to go public on this one.

[M_deJong]

I'm sure there are some federal laws that govern what you can do. But this approach seems pretty well fraudulent to me.

[NorthernThrux]

Many laws have been enacted to protect the integrity of the VIN. Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 511, the alteration of a VIN, could be a federal criminal offense. Further, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 2321 whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, could be fined or imprisoned for up to ten years. Similarly, Pennsylvania’s statutes also address this matter. Specifically, 18 P.S. § 1.4(a) states that a person who alters, counterfeits, defaces, destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates or removes a vehicle identification number with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000. Further, and most concerning is that pursuant to 18 P.S. § 1.4(b) any person who purchases, receives, disposes, sells, transfers or possesses a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with knowledge that the vehicle identification number of the motor vehicle or motor vehicle part has been altered, counterfeited, defaced, destroyed, disguised, falsified, forged, obliterated or removed with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000, or both.

Yeah, it is a bad thing to do.

[Biancaneve]

"Secret" numbers are there to help ...

[Jim Breazeale]

"Secret" numbers are there to help ...

The "secret numbers" in a 66 912 or 911 aren't very secret and can be easily changed along with the chassis numbers.

Regards

Jim

[friggens]

It is common knowledge that this sort of thing goes on.

The power of this board is that cars such as this one can be outed publicly: who done it, what are the numbers?

That is what ought to be done. Put it on the public record.

Some touchy situations here lately. What to do?

[72911]

There was a guy out of Sheridan WY that was attempting the same tactic. I ran in to him at Dart Auto in Denver in 2004 or 5 (when they were a salvage yard) buying a wrecked "S" (completely smashed). At the time Dart was having an open house. I asked him what he wanted it for and he said "it's an "S" right? I had heard he pulled a fast one on someone else by swapping out a good engine over night AFTER the buyer had driven the car (with the good engine in it). He had worked all night to swap in a crappy engine and the buyer had no idea when they came to pick it up. Since I knew he had done that to a buyer I knew what he was up to with the wreck. I always thought he was a "Small" man anyway....his family was connected with a fast food chain in Sheridan WY. I knew this guy slightly from around the area in Billings MT at a couple of hill climbs and that Porsche community up there. With the prices the way they are you are going to run in to less than honest people after your money so the pre-buy becomes so much more important.

[NorthernThrux]

After enough people get burned, what will happen is the market will retrench. Only cars of demonstrable provenance, restored by A1+ guys will carry a premium. Having a few thousand pictures during a restoration with invoices to back it up and a signature like Marco or Mark Allen or Rob Gross or any number of others here who are truely well known craftsmen will be the new holy grail. Statements like "Restored by one of the foremost Porsche experts in xyz state" will no longer cut it. Self-restorations, even if done well, will suffer. Private sellers, even if honest, will suffer because of this crap. Similarly, only the most well documented commercial guys will be able to demand a premium. Others, even with their shiny ebay ads and brighly lit showrooms and flowery verbiage, will have to sell at a discount.

All comes down to trust.

[91133]

There appear to be a number of potential criminal offences here and potential for civil claims as well (if someone buys it based on the representation). However, your statements are hearsay as to the re-tagging although direct (and admissible) evidence of the fact that you have been told this by a 3rd party. As your evidence of re-tagging is not admissible and unverified, the real obligation to 'out' the seller is on your acquaintance rather than you. I think your obligation is to lean on the acquaintance to do something - the right thing.

Your risk in being the 'grass' (as they say in the UK) is that you can't be certain this has happened - hearsay - and if you 'out' the seller and the information is incorrect and the seller loses a deal, you may end up liable for losses.

Just my .02

Cheers,
Mark