Weekend debate: not matching engine, how much off?

[kouwenhoven]

Some say a not matching car/engine should be valued 10-20 percent under the normal sales price (whatever that may be these days). I say it should be a bit more. For me personally it does not feel right to own a car with the 'wrong' engine. And also: whenever you come up with a nice classic Porsche the first thing people ask is if it's 'matching'.
Let me know your thoughts. And also: how about the gearbox?

Erik

[Silverbullit]

I'll bite…
I feel that far too much emphasis is placed on "matching numbers" (not just with Porsches) for several reasons, the first being that it is far to easy to re-stamp cases so as to "match". Second, knowing how 'hard' many early 911s were driven, and their proclivity for failure would suggest many originals were swapped out. Third, the 'ease' by which 911 motors can be changed, swapped, enlarged, etc.
I feel that an 'original paint' car should carry a much greater premium than 'number matching' seems to. I also feel that 'correctness' should be valued higher.
In the 2 months I've had my 'non-numbers matching' car on the road, not a single person has asked me if it is 'numbers matching'.
I think the overemphasizing of 'numbers matching' is wrongfully devaluing a lot of very correct, intact cars.

But that's just me.

[911T1971]

Some care some not. Those who care less have sometimes dozens of other early's 911's. (not me)

[Frank Beck]

Erik,

You should have qualified the survey respondents; owners could care less. It is the actual BUYERS in the marketplace who decide what the actual figure is.

I can only share my personal experience. I expect at least a 25% discount when I purchase a non-matching numbers car and most of the collectors I deal with expect the same. With prices being where they are I don't believe these figures are unfair at all. The real tragedy is that non-matching number cars completely eliminate a fairly large segment of the buyers these days. At least on big ticket restored cars.

As much as non-selling/non-buying enthusiasts grumble about this, they unfortunately don't get a vote.

Buyers make the rules; sellers either accept them or bow out of the game.

Transmissions don't seem to be a big deal.

Yet.

[Silverbullit]

But he didn't, nonetheless you've made my reply inefficacious. Thanks.

[Pirulero]

I saw a lot of engines restamped.....so I prefer a declared "non matching" car (with correct type/year engine) to a restamped "matching number".

IMHO maximum 10% less in the value for a "non matching" car but there isn't standard price for this kind of car, I prefer to judge the complete car......NOT only numbers!

[jesseandersson]

A theory...(?)

It takes a lot less knowledge to confirm matching numbers than lets say original paint/other details thus making it easier for any prospective buyer to dismiss a car. As Frank stated it's the buyers that set the rules and to many buyers it might be worth lot being able to answer that you own a matching numbers car since that question will probably be asked more often than originality questions regarding stuff that demand vast knowledge.

Personally i'd prefer an original paint car if I had to choose.

MHO

[steve shea]

In past threads on this the consensus was that restamped to a matching number devalues the car and can be fraudulent. The pecking order was, value wise, original engine the car left the factory with is the most valuable. Then next, taking the least hit in value and the most honest, an unnumbered factory replacement case of the original type. Then all the other efforts way down in value, %25 or more in some cases.

How can a car be correct without its original ancillary parts like the engine? I guess there is original appearing and original. The higher value seems obvious there. This debate on value and stamping has been good entertainment on this forum over the years.

[steve shea]

BTW the only group of old Porsches, that I know of, that somewhat follows a different line of value is the 4 cam. That group is so small, many owners with the wrong engine take solace in knowing that the original engine is still out there and actually get value on resale by documenting its existence. Then an effort can be made to reunite the car and original engine.

I had a 58 steel panel GT speedster with the wrong engine. The original was in Australia. I tried to buy or trade to no avail but it did not seem to matter when I sold the car. The new buyer paid all the money and was happy to know where to original was and that it still existed. Maybe the same now for important old race cars and RS models. Not the same for our pedestrian models. Yet.

[1968DT]

For this discussion, does a matching number engine include upgrade mods or outlaw? Or does a matching number cover original head and cam spec only.