In the end, who cares?
Same parts, same car, same fun.... same same...
In the end, who cares?
Same parts, same car, same fun.... same same...
Slate Gray, Red Leather, 1968 912 HWT
The provenance of a 911 is defined by all of the above! With papers, it does depend on what kind of papers you have. Having one piece, like a wagenpass does not verify that you have the authentic and real 911 with that wagenpass.
You need chassis numbers in front and Kneewall (that are unmolested), history with unbroken chain of ownership papers, history of original parts, history of paint samples shown to be on the car, pictures documented during restoration to verify this info, inspections by marque experts, and verification by any people that were familiar with the car in its day.
So, having 2 of 3 with wagenpass and verification by a prior owner (but not proper evidence on the car) should not be enough compared to a car that has the authentic chassis numbers and historical evidence of the car during restoration.
For example, Kremer Racing kept the Wagenpasses for most of it's cars, even though the cars moved on to new owners. Today, you see many Kremer Racing "exact replica" cars that are verified only by their Wagenpass and a "newly" stamped chassis number, while there are numerous original cars out there that are the real and authentic car but have everything else listed above except the Wagenpass.
LOOKING FOR:
ENGINE Nos: 4080191, 911669
GEARBOX Nos: 9282004, 131410, 115639
1967 Porsche 911 P.A.R.T. Trans Am Rally Kit #308107
1968 Porsche 911S Sebring GT class winner #11800224
1971 Porsche 911S Targa Conda Green
1973 Porsche 2.8 RSR ex-Targa Florio, 2xLeMans #9113600894
In response to Barwaut, "same fun", but "similar (not the same original) parts" and definitely NOT the "same car".
As stated earlier, an exact replica is a car to be used, enjoyed, and admired, AS LONG AS it is represented for exactly what it is - "an exact replica", "a clone", or "tribute" car.
Any misrepresentation is FRAUD! So, if someone represents their car as "same, same", then they can be sent to "Sing Sing" (which is a prison in the US) [this is a little play on words for Johns4949 ]
LOOKING FOR:
ENGINE Nos: 4080191, 911669
GEARBOX Nos: 9282004, 131410, 115639
1967 Porsche 911 P.A.R.T. Trans Am Rally Kit #308107
1968 Porsche 911S Sebring GT class winner #11800224
1971 Porsche 911S Targa Conda Green
1973 Porsche 2.8 RSR ex-Targa Florio, 2xLeMans #9113600894
Agree to some degree.
With historic RSRs over a million $ I understand why they are not often seen historic racing.
So at a vintage event I just enjoy seeing the Porsches that can participate and do look the part.
For the record my RSR is a tribute.
My integrity forbids me from accepting offers over a million. lol
Hard to see the in the two pictures of the Vaillant cars, if you look closely you can see the different side view mirrors.
Also, on the Brambring cars, look at the mirrors and the silver window trim versus black trim.
LOOKING FOR:
ENGINE Nos: 4080191, 911669
GEARBOX Nos: 9282004, 131410, 115639
1967 Porsche 911 P.A.R.T. Trans Am Rally Kit #308107
1968 Porsche 911S Sebring GT class winner #11800224
1971 Porsche 911S Targa Conda Green
1973 Porsche 2.8 RSR ex-Targa Florio, 2xLeMans #9113600894
Unfortunately there are lots of people out to make big money by making a "replica", "clone" or what have you and representing it as something else. Reminds me of winning a race by cheating. If these shysters are exposed the occurences of fact distortion should be reduced.
The first owner of a clone is usually honest. The problem is that three owners and a couple of decades later the clone becomes the real deal. This has been going on for decades now. I know at least one of my cars has been changed into a different car.
It happens a lot more often than anyone wants to admit. Just think about how many Lola T70s are real.
Richard Newton
I have a clone myself. And not shamed about it! I can't afford a true 2.8 RSR today. If I had been more smart, I would have bought one 15 years ago... But I bought a house and I'm pleased with that. I don't think I could have live in my car by the way...
With my mechanic, who had 2 original RSR 12 and 9 years ago, we discussed a lot about the originality of these cars. Especially the ones which ran a lot and for years. That means the chassis where often destroyed or modify, with the VIN changed or lost, whatever. That's why it's so difficult to find original race cars from this generation. And that's also why people take a single part or a few to rebuild a complete car around them. I don't mind about this philosophy. When it's done with respect, passion, hard work and honesty, I'm the first one to applause. With war birds, it's pretty emotional as well!
What I find very sad, is people taking advantage of their knowledges, reputations, positions or relations to sell «clones» pretending they are originals. At the end, it's only a question of money, as usual...
I have some amazing examples. I know at least two 2.8 RSR with a great reputation of originality with wrong chassis, restamped VIN (and it's pretty obvious), non original parts, etc, etc. One has a 2.4S chassis and a lot of early911sregistry would notice if they had chance to check the car! But stories around these cars are very romantic, which help to see them like originals. High level of experts gave their «sesame» to these cars and it's another disgrace but another debate as well! This business is worse and worse since the market became crazy, 4 or 3 years ago. And I think it's just starting.
What ever! This thread is great and my thanks to the guys who take time to entertained it!
I would like to say that the first owner of the "clone" of my car was honest. They probably were and maybe even had good intentions, right up until they sanded the VIN and re-stamped a new chassis number on the car. LOL
The "clone" of my car is on approximately the 4th owner. I know they were duped into believing that it was the real car. They certainly didn't do enough due diligence and also took the word of other experts that supported this car with their "sesame". (Moral of their story: don't buy a car based on stories and a piece of paper. Dig deeper!)
I have no issues with clones. I considered buying one myself. I just want to ensure that any clone is not misrepresented as the original. That may be my version of utopia (and I'm sure naïveté).
I know the owners of the "clone" of my car will be greatly disappointed when they learn their car is not the real thing! I am preparing the re-introduction of my original car as we speak. It has been a year and a half of research and patience, and it still may be another year before I can execute my plan. Who knows, the "clone" may be onto its 5th owner by then???
LOOKING FOR:
ENGINE Nos: 4080191, 911669
GEARBOX Nos: 9282004, 131410, 115639
1967 Porsche 911 P.A.R.T. Trans Am Rally Kit #308107
1968 Porsche 911S Sebring GT class winner #11800224
1971 Porsche 911S Targa Conda Green
1973 Porsche 2.8 RSR ex-Targa Florio, 2xLeMans #9113600894