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Thread: Replica vs. Original Discussion

  1. #31
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    I am currently working to go after those responsible trying to create a fraudulent car with the same VIN number as my car.
    Last edited by alarson11; 01-25-2018 at 06:36 AM.
    LOOKING FOR:
    ENGINE Nos: 4080191, 911669
    GEARBOX Nos: 9282004, 131410, 115639

    1967 Porsche 911 P.A.R.T. Trans Am Rally Kit #308107
    1968 Porsche 911S Sebring GT class winner #11800224
    1971 Porsche 911S Targa Conda Green
    1973 Porsche 2.8 RSR ex-Targa Florio, 2xLeMans #9113600894

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by alarson11 View Post
    . . . currently working to go after those responsible trying to create a fraudulent car with the same VIN number as my car . . .
    Well that sounds ominous


    Any üpdates?




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  3. #33
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    And on That Note . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by 928cs View Post
    . . . What defines a 911's identity?
    - Stamped numbers?
    - The front part of body?
    - Papers?
    - Everything above?
    Or just the part that is the more difficult to fake? . . .


    . . . whaddiya make o' this one? . . .



    Quote Originally Posted by LongRanger View Post
    . . . VIN = 9112300538
    Eng# = 6622022
    Trans# = ?
    Prod# = 1022592




    '. . . Ordered from the sports division of Porsche by the US racing driver Michael “Mike” Keyser in November 1971, the 911 2.5 S/T saw action at several races in the USA and at the endurance world championship during the 1972 season. One of the drivers back then was Jürgen Barth, a Porsche factory driver and an employee of the sports division of Porsche. The overall winner of the Le Mans 24 Hours race in 1977 can still vividly remember those days even now, 44 years later: “Mike Keyser had invited me to Sebring and we planned to drive the full 1972 endurance championship. Mike had even hired a small TV team to accompany us through the season."

    In the 1972 season, Jürgen Barth and the 911 2.5 S/T raced in the Daytona 6 Hours and the Sebring 12 Hours in Florida, followed by the Targa Florio as well as the 1000-km race on the Nürburgring together with Mike Keyser. Together with Sylvain Garant from Switzerland, Keyser and Barth finally took up the gauntlet of the season’s highlight — the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Not only did the trio, under the banner of the team Louis Mezanarie, take the class victory for GT cars up to 3 litres, but also clinched a formidable 13th place overall.

    Alexander Fabig, head of Porsche Classic at Porsche AG, recalls the state that the car was originally in, “The 911 2.5 S/T was rediscovered a few years ago by a collector in the USA — and it was in a really dilapidated condition. Our experts have done an excellent job at restoring the sports car to the highest standards. We are thrilled about the confidence this customer placed in us with this restoration job. This project is unparalleled and of great historical significance.”

    All these years later, the restoration posed a real challenge for the Porsche Classic experts — especially when it comes to the bodywork. As soon as the car arrived at the workshop the experts discovered that not only had the 911 been converted to what was later dubbed the ‘G-model’, but it had also suffered accident damage, which had been bent back into shape unprofessionally. In addition to deformation in the tunnel as well as on the side rails, corrosion had done serious damage, in particular in the wheel housing panels, the tunnel and the roof. The roof, which had been deformed beyond repair, suggested that children had used the car as a welcome playmate for a considerable length of time, making the repairs to the bodywork particularly complex, which included the challenging conversion and reconstruction of the flared wing extensions, partly done by hand. The 911 2.5 S/T was given a new roof as well as new tank bottom.

    After the extensive metalwork had been completed, the body of the 911 2.5 S/T was coated by cathodic dip painting (CDP) to protect it long-term against corrosion. This was done by putting the restored body through the current series production process at Porsche to give it protection against corrosion. This was then followed by body finishing and painting in the original light yellow colour, code 117 . . .
    '





    Some previous mentions/appearances/posts --- starting @post #594 . . .
    http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...d+hall%2C+mans


    And others
    . . .
    https://www.total911.com/porsche-991...s-for-revival/
    https://www.classicdriver.com/en/art...ica-essen-2016
    http://www.carscoops.com/2016/04/pie...l-you.html?m=1




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    I mean --- it's a race car, so . . . ya figure that the OG ENG + TRANS are basically pffft

    But for this one, they pretty-much had to re-panel the whole car . . .


    . . . I mean --- when was the last time you heard of anyone having to replace a roof, fercryinoutloud?


    Whaddiya call something like this?


    A Restoplica? . . .


    . . . or Repliginal? . . .




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  4. #34
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    [QUOTE=LongRanger;989685]Well that sounds ominous

    Any updates?


    Thanks for asking! As anything that happens with an attorney, it takes time. Given the extensive photo history file, ownership letters, video restoration documentation, and expert inspection reports, there is not much of a fight the other party can put up. As soon as I have something concrete to share, I definitely will!
    LOOKING FOR:
    ENGINE Nos: 4080191, 911669
    GEARBOX Nos: 9282004, 131410, 115639

    1967 Porsche 911 P.A.R.T. Trans Am Rally Kit #308107
    1968 Porsche 911S Sebring GT class winner #11800224
    1971 Porsche 911S Targa Conda Green
    1973 Porsche 2.8 RSR ex-Targa Florio, 2xLeMans #9113600894

  5. #35
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    [QUOTE=alarson11;989721]
    Quote Originally Posted by LongRanger View Post
    Well that sounds ominous

    Any updates?


    Thanks for asking! As anything that happens with an attorney, it takes time.
    Lol! and lots of $$$! Time = $
    Mike Fitton # 2071
    2018 911S Carrera White
    2012 991 Platinum Silver ( Gone)
    1971 911T Targa Bahia Red (Gone to France)
    1995 911 Carrera Polar Silver (Gone)

    No Affiliation with City of Chicago!

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRanger View Post
    . . . it's a race car, so . . . ya figure that the OG ENG + TRANS are basically pffft

    But for this one, they pretty-much had to re-panel the whole car . . . . . .Whaddiya call something like this?



    A Restoplica? . . .


    . . . or Repliginal? . . .


    Another thread . . .

    http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...l=1#post991555


    '. . . The restoration to take this hulk to that level could easily cost $150,000, yet its final value would be diminished by the fact that it was wrecked and rusted and would be comprised of almost all replacement parts. That equation brings us to a dirty little secret of the hobby: rebodied, or “air” cars, built from little more than legal ownership and (usually) the earthly remains of desirable cars . . .'

    https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...10_HagertyNews




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  7. #37
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  8. #38
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    Barth, Freisinger and Other Big Guys . .

    Quote Originally Posted by LongRanger View Post
    In case the article ever disappears, at some point . . .

    '. . . 90% of the car had been destroyed ... say that if only 10% is authentic (sic!) it is no longer a question of a restoration but of a more or less identical construction . . . . in this world of deception in reality we build “in the old way” a new chassis and a new bodywork all equipped with a new engine and “it works” thanks to the chassis number which is the only authentic element , although ... and also thanks to the famous “expertise”…, As long as this is the case with these typical stolen car reconditioning shenanigans, the car in question will continue to be considered “the car” , regardless of the extent of the renovation it has undergone.

    Did this car indeed participate in the competitions at the time or was it only these twenty centimeters of its chassis that participated in the race?
    . . .'

    https://www.gatsbyonline.com/automob...ausses-408711/


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  9. #39
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    Google translation of an article in a German newspaper from Aachen:
    Aachener Zeitung, Dez. 8th 2020 (translation by Google)

    On the slopes of this world they have become legends made of sheet metal, for example because they victoriously crossed the finish line at the 24 Hours of Le Mans. The fact that film icon James Dean raced to his death with a copy contributed to the formation of legend on the streets. In one case there is talk of the Porsche 917, the multiple Le Mans winner, which is sometimes referred to as the “racing car of the century”. In the other case, a Porsche 550 Spyder that was only built around 100 times. It cost 24,000 Deutschmarks in the 1950s, which sounds rather ridiculous today, but was certainly a lot of money back then. If you want to buy an original today, you have to put around five to seven million euros on the table. With the 917 one speaks of completely different sums in the double-digit million range. It goes without saying that such automotive treasures attract some people with excessive money as prestige objects or as investments. And that is exactly what an extraordinary criminal case revolves around, which has its center in Aachen and which will most likely soon occupy the commercial criminal chamber of the Aachen regional court. Because such vehicles are said to have been counterfeited in rows in a company in Aachen and then brought to buyers with equally forged papers and reports, sometimes for millions.

    Man from Aachen among the defendants
    In July 2019, apartments and business premises were searched in several federal states. Now, after a total of more than two and a half years of extensive investigations in the sensational case, the public prosecutor has brought charges against three suspects, including fraud, forgery and trademark violation. The accused are the 49-year-old former managing director of a company specializing in vintage cars in Aachen, a 48-year-old cosmetic surgeon from Düsseldorf and a 72-year-old former successful racing driver and proven Porsche racing expert from Sachsenheim.
    The indictment encompasses a total of 22 cases in the most varied of forms, whereby the 49-year-old Aachener is believed to have been involved in all of these cases and is therefore the main defendant. He was in custody for almost four months after the raid and was only released on bail. According to Lena Streubel, deputy spokeswoman for the regional court, the other two defendants are each charged with participating in four cases. A total of 14 automotive legends on four wheels play a role in the process - in addition to the 550 and 917, for example, racing versions of the Porsche 911 as well as the 904 and 908 models.
    Speaking of large circles: after our newspaper's first report in July 2019, numerous witnesses reported to the investigators - even from afar. For example, a man from Japan who said he had been cheated. There was also evidence from the United States and elsewhere. No wonder that the four-person team of investigators from the Aachen Criminal Police Office has repeatedly resorted to the services of interpreters in their investigations, which have been ongoing since April 2018. Despite the charges that have now been submitted, the investigations are not yet over, as the investigating prosecutor Jan Balthasar says. For example, it has not yet been possible to clarify where and by whom the papers were forged.

    Did the customers know?
    The court must now decide whether the indictment will lead to main proceedings. According to Lena Streubel, “at the moment it cannot be predicted at all” when a lawsuit could then occur. According to reports, the accused businessman confessed that he had admitted falsifications. However, customers would have known that they were buying counterfeits.
    The amount of the total damage is not easy for the investigators to estimate, since the forgeries also have a value, albeit a lower one. However, this case is likely to be in the double-digit million range. Incidentally, the manufacturer, whose valuable originals and their forgeries this story is about, has also filed a criminal complaint for infringement of trademark law: Porsche.

    Insiders have reported to our newspaper that, for example, for forging engine and gearbox numbers, special punching tools have been built that have the same small flaws - such as notches in certain numbers and letters - as the originals in the factory. Or, for example, that old typewriters, which were common when the original vehicles were built, are used to forge vehicle papers. Those familiar with the scene say that there is a flourishing trade worldwide not only in counterfeit vehicles, but also in papers.
    Of course, the vehicles also need official approval. This is the interface where the Aachen case was exposed. The Düren road traffic office had become aware of irregularities in this area. On closer inspection, it became apparent that the Aachen company in particular appeared frequently in this context. That was the starting shot for the investigation, which then drew wide circles. An investigation has also been carried out against the employee of the authority, but the proceedings have been severed because he is said to have waved through the papers and vehicles not only for the Aacheners but also for other “customers”.

    Replica from scrap
    According to information from our newspaper, the investigations initially included significantly more cases. Initially, the investigators created 186 case files. Then they focused on 35 suspected cases, although sometimes the allegations either could not be substantiated or they were already statute-barred - for example in the case of another great racing driver of yore. How did the business work? Answer: sometimes like that, sometimes like that. An example: a customer was interested in a certain rare Porsche type in the original. It was “procured” in the Aachen company. But not as an original. Rather, a replica was conjured up from scrap metal, which is then supposed to have been sold as an original to the interested party, the investigators believe. Since there are sometimes only a few of the vehicles left in the world or there are even unique items in the racing sector, the chassis number and the papers, among other things, had to be forged. Regarding the data, such as chassis numbers, the 72-year-old Porsche specialist and former Le Mans winner, who has a large archive, is said to have contributed the information. If, for example, it could be assumed that a vehicle probably no longer exists, its number was used for a forgery. In one case it went wrong. After the investigation got underway, a man reported to the public prosecutor's office who had an original in the garage, but which had also changed hands elsewhere as a fake, supposedly unique original for huge sums of money. The accused cosmetic surgeon, who is also a racing driver and lover of rare cars, is said to have had a 911 built - knowing that it was a fake. However, this car is said to have been sold later as an expensive original. The public prosecutor's office also classifies this as fraud. In another case, a forgery is said to have been made with the knowledge of the buyer. In the sales contract it was agreed that the car would receive an original gearbox worth EUR 200,000, which was never delivered. Counterfeit down to the smallest detail In yet another case there was this curiosity: Original documents from 1970 are said to have been presented here when it was sold. However, an appraisal by the public prosecutor's office showed that the paper grade had only been on the market since the 1980s. In another case, the cosmetic surgeon is said to have used a counterfeit classic car as security for a bank loan. According to the indictment, it was the said Porsche 550 and the credit line was not about change: The total credit was accordingly 6.347 million euros.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by HughH View Post
    . . . in light of what we now know when I am reading it and looking at those great photos I cant help thinking "are any of those real? . . .
    . . .





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